This page is an archive of past discussions for the period July 2016 - August 2016. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

SuggestBot 2 July 2016

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An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Zac Holtzman. Since you had some involvement with the Zac Holtzman redirect, you might want to participate in the redirect discussion if you have not already done so. Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 11:17, 3 July 2016 (UTC)

Sunday July 10, 3-8pm: WikNYC Picnic

You are invited to join us the "picnic anyone can edit" in Manhattan's Central Park, as part of the Great American Wiknic celebrations being held across the USA. Remember it's a wiki-picnic, which means potluck. Sunday July 10 WikNYC Picnic (RSVP) (also on meetup.com) 3–8pm - come by any time! The picnicking area is the southwest section of the Great Lawn, north of the Delacorte Theater, just inside the park at Central Park West between 81st & 82nd. Enter the park at West 81st St. Look for us by the Wikipedia / Wikimedia NYC banner! Subway: 81st Street – Museum of Natural History, C Line We hope to see you there! --Pharos (talk) 14:55, 5 July 2016 (UTC)

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Hello R. I hope that you are well. Thanks for your posts about Simpleshow. It took me a couple seconds to figure our why the link you posted here Wikipedia:No original research/Noticeboard#Simpleshow foundation didn't go to the discussion and then I saw that it was at ANI and not AN - I've made that mistake in the past :-) I added the correct link but you may want to fix yours as well. Cheers. MarnetteD|Talk 01:40, 6 July 2016 (UTC)

@MarnetteD: Whoopsiedaisy. Thanks. Fixed. If only someone could explain noticeboards with a nice cartoony video. :) — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 01:48, 6 July 2016 (UTC)

OK that is laugh out loud funny :-D I'm glad that I could help. MarnetteD|Talk 01:50, 6 July 2016 (UTC)

Your free one-year account with Newspapers.com will end on August 6 2016. Newspapers.com has offered to extend existing accounts by another year. If you wish to keep your account until August 6 2017, please add your name to the Account Renewal list here. I'll let Newspapers.com customer support know, and they will extend your subscription. If you don't want to keep your account for another year, you don't have to do anything. Your account will expire unless I hear from you that you want to keep it. HazelAB (talk) 13:16, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

GLAM 2016-06

This Month in GLAM – Volume VI, Issue VI, June 2016 Headlines Argentina report: Edit-a-thons and contest in Buenos Aires Belgium report: Just For The Record; Wiki Loves Art preparations Brazil report: New steps for the GLAM movement in Brazil France report: « Veni, vidi, wiki ! » Germany report: GLAM on Tour is a format, is a statement, is a tag Italy report: Contemporary art images from BEIC Macedonia report: National library collaboration and Contemporary art on Wikidata Mexico report: 3 continuous days of art; Efforts against the Wikipedia Gender Gap Netherlands report: Image donation by the Museum Catharijneconvent; 1300 Dutch underground newspapers from WW2; Collaboration with public libraries Spain report: Involving libraries in Wikimedia projects Sweden report: World Wide Wikipedia; Royal Library; Monuments database to Wikidata migration; Swiss Open Cultural Data Hackathon 2016 UK report: Wellcome USA report: June is busting out all over Open Access report: Open Science Fellows Program; OA Signalling Wikipedia Library report: Books & Bytes Wikidata report: Wikidatamania WMF GLAM report: A Wikimania Reflection, GLAM Phabricator Queues, and a WMF Update Calendar: July's GLAM events Read this edition in full • Single-page To assist with preparing the newsletter, please visit the newsroom. Past editions may be viewed here. About This Month in GLAM · Subscribe/Unsubscribe · Global message delivery · Romaine 01:58, 14 July 2016 (UTC)

I am overjoyed to see the new articles you did covering Cambodian rock from its golden age in the 60s. The story of Yol Aularong is particularly tragic--he is one of the great martyrs of rock & roll. I want to put a mention of him (and the Cambodian scene) in the international section of the Garage rock article. India had a big garage band thing too. I'd like to do some research to find out more about American musicians who had been in garage bands that got drafted and died in the Viet Nam War. I know that Saigon had an active rock scene in the 60s. Garagepunk66 (talk) 21:07, 14 July 2016 (UTC)

@Garagepunk66: Thanks for the note. I wish I could've found more on Aularong. Maybe your knowledge of sources in the subject will turn up some more of what remains. My own exposure to this sort of music came from stumbling upon the Love, Peace & Poetry series as a random record store buy and, more specifically, someone introducing me to Cambodian Rocks, which remains one of my favorite albums. The Aularong article came about while I was working on that one.

As an aside, I was trying to remember who it was at this radio station I used to work/volunteer at that first told me about Cambodian Rocks. One possibility it someone whose show I'm reminded of and is worth mentioning, as I'm pretty sure he's still going some 12ish years later. It's a small community station so there's flexibility for very focused/obscure content, and his was a weekly 60s/70s psychedelic, garage, and progrock show, usually on a theme. I should really try to get him to edit Wikipedia, because he loves to talk about the stuff anyway :) I imagine you already know plenty of the sort, but if you're bored sometime he has a bunch of old shows here. :) — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 21:50, 14 July 2016 (UTC)

I found out about 60s Cambodian rock when I went to see the Don’t Think I’ve Forgotten documentary. It was so sad what the Khamer rouge did to that country and what happened to Yol Aularong. I was actually thinking about possibley doing an article on him, but I was having trouble finding good sources. But, thank God you came to the rescue and found the piece from the New York Times and did the articles. I feel that it is so important that this wonderful music be brought to people's attention. In the last year I've been working on an expansion on the Garage rock article, and one thing I have tried to do is add more coverage of the international musicians, including those in the far East. And, thanks for the streams--I'm going to give them a good long listen! Thanks. Garagepunk66 (talk) 22:20, 14 July 2016 (UTC)

SuggestBot 16 July 2016

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SuggestBot 30 July 2016

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A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Khizr and Ghazala Khan is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Humayun Khan (soldier) until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article.

I don't quite understand the distinction you are making about which templates count as being "in the text"; it's all "text" once you are in the edit window. I find any template being bunched up into a single line like that completely unreadable.

Do you really find x|gdsgdGD=i|sdfsdf=l|ffswsd=o|dfaaDD=V|D=E|ffsdg=u more human readable than

|gdsgdGD=i

|sdfsdf=l

|ffswsd=o

|dfaaDD=V

|D=E

|ffsdg=u

? Because I can understand right-side of the second version's equations right away; hell, anyone who has seen a 3rd grade chalkboard before can get that right away. I'm baffled by the argument that the first version more editable than the second version. If I needed to change it to "ihaTEu" I feel like in the second version I could do it blindfolded.

If it was your first day on Wikipedia, which version would you honestly find more accesible?

Still, same as you, I'm likewise unaware of anything MOS specific to this. But much like the argument between the use of British versus American dates, in this particular instance I've planted my flag first. :) -- Kendrick7^talk 01:49, 4 August 2016 (UTC)

@Kendrick7: By "in the text" I mean inline, in the middle of article prose, as opposed to at the very top or bottom of the article. The infobox is apart from the actual text, sitting on top of everything, for example, but an inline citation sits right in the middle of a sentence, paragraph, section, etc. So that we have:

Here we break a<ref>((cite web

|first1=Bob

|last1=Smith

|first2=Julia

|last2=Miller

|work=Paper

|date=5 May 5555

|title=Stuff

|url=example.com

))</ref> a thought by adding a big block in between.

Doing the same thing<ref>((cite web|first1=Bob|last1=Smith|first2=Julie|last2=Miller|work=Paper|date=5 May 5555|title=Stuff|url=example.com))</ref> this way keeps the sentence, paragraph, or section as close together as possible, making it easier to navigate through the page and easier to spot problems like the fact that my example above has an extra "a". (Though the error was probably easy to spot in this case -- a poor attempt at being clever -- separating it, especially when citations make it so the first part and second part of a block of text can't even be in the same editing window without scrolling, does make that sort of thing easier to miss).

Citation templates can be cumbersome and do hurt the readability of the raw wikitext no matter what, so I think it's a matter of minimizing that disruption. For those who don't like to work with them directly -- and to answer your question about my first day on Wikipedia -- there's the Visual Editor. There are also tools like ProveIt, etc. which make citation templates more user friendly for people who don't like to deal with the clunky wikitext templates.

While it's true that the template itself is easier to read if spread out over many lines, the opposite is true for the rest of the text, and I don't think the benefit to template readability is worth the detriment to prose readability.

Personally, in most articles I start I use list-defined references, keeping the template code as far away from the rest of the article as possible. One possible compromise would be to use that style combined with spread out citations. That way they're still readable, but don't break up the article text. For whatever that's worth.. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 03:11, 4 August 2016 (UTC)

tl;dr The only thing I got out of skimming your edit was something about Bob Smith and Julia Miller. Are they going to be OK?

But it's been a long day and I'll try to delve more tomorrow.... -- Kendrick7^talk 04:30, 4 August 2016 (UTC)

OK, OK, now ICWUDT, but the old "double 'the' with a line break" is the oldest unspottable typo in the book thereof. (Hard to google up the canonical example, but, meh, this one tries.[1]) No one is putting refs immediately after indefinite articles in real life.

I have more to say, but speaking of real life.... -- Kendrick7^talk 12:28, 4 August 2016 (UTC)

No one is putting refs immediately after indefinite articles in real life. Fair. Let's skip over that trick, then. It was just another reason that came to me while I was writing -- not actually part of my own motivation. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 13:04, 4 August 2016 (UTC)

Perhaps it basically comes down to how one's eyes are trained to skim through things and readability at least on my end. In the past I've had a distinct feeling that veteran Wikpedians bunch up refs on purpose just to make it so new editors can't join the club (again, we decidedly don't bunch up infoboxes and other templates in this way), but you make a fair counter-argument. And, yes, there's a reason scribes invented footnotes a long time ago, and it would be possible to make all refs into them as you pointed out, but that's hard to maintain. If some style-wise consensus could ever be reached either way it wouldn't be too hard to make a bot to sort it all out. -- Kendrick7^talk 06:05, 14 August 2016 (UTC)

@Kendrick7: Fair enough. I maintain that the Visual Editor (which has come a long, long way in the last few years, if you haven't used it recently) goes a long way to neutralize reference styles in wikicode being a barrier to participation. That's not to say it's not still an issue, of course. Maybe I'm an outlier in this, but for me it's the only citation template style I've encountered that, if required, would probably act as a minor deterrent to editing a particular article. Maybe the reverse is true for my preferred formats (e.g. named references at the bottom). — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 14:05, 14 August 2016 (UTC)

Just...why?... :'( Parsley Man (talk) 00:50, 5 August 2016 (UTC)

Rhododendrites (and @NeilN:) Parsley Man seems to be behaving erratically at Talk:Khizr and Ghazala Khan, exhibiting the same NOTHERE behaviors that have twice gotten him blocked. pbp 01:30, 5 August 2016 (UTC)

I'm a wild card. :) Parsley Man (talk) 02:05, 5 August 2016 (UTC)

Parsley Man, become more of a straight shooter please. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 14:11, 5 August 2016 (UTC)

Yeah, being a wild card isn't something to be proud of. pbp 17:12, 5 August 2016 (UTC)

On 9 August 2016, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Khizr and Ghazala Khan, which you recently created, substantially expanded, or brought to good article status. The fact was ... that following the speech by Khizr and Ghazala Khan (pictured) at the 2016 Democratic National Convention, sales of pocket Constitutions spiked? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Khizr and Ghazala Khan. You are welcome to check how many page hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, ), and it may be added to the statistics page if the total is over 5,000. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

— Maile (talk) 21:07, 9 August 2016 (UTC)

TMiG July 2016

This Month in GLAM – Volume VI, Issue VII, July 2016 Headlines Argentina report: Edit-a-thon in a historic building in Buenos Aires Basque Country report: Basque spring-summer blooming Belgium report: Wiki Loves Art halfway Brazil report: Cultural Mapping: knowing better the Brazilian museums scenario France report: Bons baisers de France Macedonia report: 290 photos by Manaki brothers Mexico report: Wikipedia in Mayan; GLAM in Aldea Digital Spain report: Attending the Peace Treaties in Art Edit-a-thon Sweden report: Connected Open Heritage; Critiquing social norms with free images Switzerland report: Open Cultural Data Hackathon UK report: Engaging the experts & training the trainers USA report: Engaging the experts & training the trainers Open Access report: Wikimedian in Residence opening; Ancestral reconstruction; A swimming centipede Wikidata report: Pokémon and more WMF GLAM report: Grants; New Content Donation Evaluation Report; WMF Updates Calendar: August's GLAM events Read this edition in full • Single-page To assist with preparing the newsletter, please visit the newsroom. Past editions may be viewed here. About This Month in GLAM · Subscribe/Unsubscribe · Global message delivery · Romaine 02:40, 10 August 2016 (UTC)

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SuggestBot 13 August 2016

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Wednesday Auugust 17, 7pm: WikiWednesday Salon and Skill-Share NYC

You are invited to join the Wikimedia NYC community for our monthly "WikiWednesday" evening salon (7-9pm) and knowledge-sharing workshop at Babycastles gallery by 14th Street / Union Square in Manhattan. Featuring special guest presentations on WikiVerse and Bringing Wikipedia to the Last Mile. We will include a look at the organization and planning for our chapter, and expanding volunteer roles for both regular Wikipedia editors and new participants. We will also follow up on plans for recent (UN Women!) and upcoming edit-a-thons, and other outreach activities. We welcome the participation of our friends from the Free Culture movement and from all educational and cultural institutions interested in developing free knowledge projects. After the main meeting, pizza/chicken/vegetables and refreshments and video games in the gallery! Wednesday August 17 WikiWednesday Salon and Skill-Share NYC (RSVP on-wiki or at meetup.com). 7:00pm - 9:00 pm at Babycastles gallery, 137 West 14th Street We especially encourage folks to add your 5-minute lightning talks to our roster, and otherwise join in the "open space" experience! Newcomers are very welcome! Bring your friends and colleagues! --Pharos (talk) 23:20, 16 August 2016 (UTC) P.S. Prep for our chapter elections next month in September (and add your candidacy!): Wikipedia:Meetup/NYC/Elections

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rest assured my friend we shall be assessing arguments at a later date, right now I'm busy with others but will exert special effort to make time for you — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wikkileaker (talk • contribs) 21:07, 23 August 2016 (UTC)

@Wikkileaker: Ok. But when I said "assessing arguments", it was about the arguments Khan presented (or those his comments were based on), not yours or mine. Mine is summed up over at WP:SYNTH and WP:WEIGHT (I know it's annoying to throw wikijargon out there, but they're pretty important). In an article about X, we report what sources say about X. If X says something about Y, then we can include sources which talk about what X says about Y (including when reliable sources say X was wrong), but bringing in some source about Y is considered synthesis. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 21:14, 23 August 2016 (UTC)

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Dear Rhododendrites,
I apologise for interrupting your break; this is simply a courtesy notice, re: our earlier discussions on 2 March and 14 May 2015, to let you know that I have now (finally...) completed the development task, created the article today (Declan Masterson) and added a new entry for him in the List of bagpipers.
Thank you once again for your helpful advice at the time of our earlier exchange, and please don't feel obligated to reply.
With kind regards;
Patrick. ツ Pdebee.^{(talk)(guestbook)} 23:27, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

@Pdebee: Excellent! :) Have you considered submitting it for WP:DYK? — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 17:14, 26 August 2016 (UTC)

Dear Rhododendrites,

Thank you for interrupting your break to reply. I never think about DYK, and your suggestion seems to indicate that I should in this case. I have therefore read, for the first time, the page you so kindly linked above, and have concluded that the present article will not qualify, because it fails this condition:

a. For DYK purposes, a "new" article is no more than seven days old, and may not consist of text spun off from a pre-existing article.

Reason is that I cribbed existing content from the Moving Hearts and Mozaik articles, prior to pruning it to the bare minimum required in order to remain on topic. I am sure DYK reviewers would be thorough in applying this guideline, as they should. Also, I can't help thinking the article is still a bit borderline, because I couldn't find Masterson's birth date anywhere and also, as we discussed before, there aren't very many sources documenting his career, and most of them parrot each other. Therefore, I will pass on this occasion, although I am pleased you brought DYK to my attention, as I will consider it for future articles I may write.

Thank you once again for all your helpful assistance, and please keep well.

With kind regards for now;

Patrick. ツ Pdebee.^{(talk)(guestbook)} 20:09, 26 August 2016 (UTC)

@Pdebee: The idea of that rule, I believe, is to rule out those articles that are entirely spun out -- taking a section of one page and creating a new article for it. Many topics are expected to summarize other articles without necessarily being spin outs themselves. If you paraphrase the material taken from the two other articles and perhaps add/modify to focus more on Masterson, I don't think it would be a problem. The 7-day rule is a hard line, though, so if you think you might want to nominate it my advice would be to dive in and create the nomination first -- it'll take a little while for someone to get to it to conduct a review and the worst thing that'll happen is it gets declined. Best case scenario, your work is featured on the main page :) A caveat, though: I've been through the DYK process several times, but I'm not an expert with regard to procedural nuance, so don't take what I say as gospel :) — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 16:54, 30 August 2016 (UTC)

Dear Rhododendrites,

Thank you for interrupting your break to assist some more; you're always so good at demystifying the guidelines and revealing their subtleties... As soon as I read your cogent explanation, the true intent of that specific condition made abundant sense; thanks once again!

I hope you won't think me churlish, but I'll pass this time, as I still don't feel comfortable about the fact the article is a bit borderline, IMHO; I feel somewhat frustrated about not finding his birth date anywhere, but hay-ho.

Also, I daresay Wikignomes tend to be a little shy of the glare of the limelight—which might help to explain why they're often found hiding behind giant mushrooms, or in the shade of globe-shaped Wikilogos...

With kind regards for now;

Patrick. ツ Pdebee.^{(talk)(guestbook)} 08:52, 31 August 2016 (UTC)

No worries, of course. It would be great if everyone had high standards for content prior to nominating something to appear on the main page (most DYKs are great, but it has also had a few issues with poor quality and even incorrect information). Keep it in mind for some future article and let me know if you want a hand with the nomination process. It's actually pretty straightforward, but the long pages of instructions and guides can be deceptively intimidating. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 12:23, 31 August 2016 (UTC)

P.S. I would have called you 'Ryan', but didn't, since you always sign as 'Rhododendrites'. (How does Gerda find these things out, I ask myself?!)

In this case, it was easy: user page. Sometimes an earlier version of that has it, where I always look when the user page is not informative, surprising many users were less cautious about information in their early days. - It's nothing I'd search for, I rather look at contribs, especially articles. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:19, 31 August 2016 (UTC)

Dear Gerda,

Well, I hadn't looked at Ryan's user page for a long time and therefore had forgotten it displayed his full name! So, the standard of observational skills is definitely dropping fast in the ranks of our Wikignomes! Seriously, though: I simply wanted to pay you a compliment about how good you are at managing the 'Precious' initiative; thank you once more for all you do for our community, and our encyclopedia.

With kind regards;

Patrick. ツ Pdebee.^{(talk)(guestbook)} 09:46, 31 August 2016 (UTC)

Thank you, taken. I wonder when the Precious page will be up for deletion. Another project page, as Ryan kindly notified on the project talk. It's these little gnomish things that I like! - If you look at my talk: our latest happy pic! (more permanently here) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:54, 31 August 2016 (UTC)

Dear Gerda,

That looks like one very happy choir; well done! And thank you for sharing.

With kind regards;

Patrick. ツ Pdebee.^{(talk)(guestbook)} 10:04, 31 August 2016 (UTC)

Going to sing one the greatest pieces (last Saturday), to be repeated on Saturday, - and here people think my only interest are infoboxes, sadly ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:12, 31 August 2016 (UTC)

I agree with Patrick that your dedication to fostering community via Precious et al. is both valuable and admirable. Thanks for that (not just the one below). :) BTW taking a listen to Der 100. Psalm as I type this. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 12:23, 31 August 2016 (UTC)

SuggestBot 29 August 2016

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personalities pictured

Thank you for quality articles such as Becoming Jimi Hendrix and Khizr and Ghazala Khan, for your work managing for the education foundation, for dealing with articles for deletion including proper notifications, for thinking about "absolutely obvious", for images, - Ryan, you are an awesome Wikipedian!

--Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:13, 30 August 2016 (UTC)

@Gerda Arendt: Thank you! It makes me happy to see this surprising set of examples highlighted. Lest I take too much credit, I should say that while I'm a program manager at Wiki Ed, I don't manage the foundation itself. :) Thanks again! — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 17:09, 30 August 2016 (UTC)

The Interior via MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 23:25, 31 August 2016 (UTC)