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the action was inconsistent with the contentious topics procedure or applicable policy (i.e. the action was out of process),
the action represents an unreasonable exercise of administrative enforcement discretion, or
compelling circumstances warrant the full Committee's action.

^ The administrator may indicate consent at any time before, during, or after imposition of the restriction.
^ This criterion does not apply if the original action was imposed as a result of rough consensus at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard, as there would be no single enforcing administrator.

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Important notes:

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Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Atsme

There is consensus that Atsme deserves a second chance. The topic ban is lifted with a warning that backsliding into behaviors that led to the ban will result in further sanctions. ~Awilley (talk) 05:44, 1 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action. To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED). Appealing user Atsme (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – ^{Atsme✍🏻📧} 20:05, 20 February 2019 (UTC)[reply] Sanction being appealed Indef topic ban from AP2 broadly construed imposed at the beginning of this ARCA request in June 2018, and the first appeal in August 2018 that I withdrew in 24 hrs. Administrator imposing the sanction Bishonen (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) Notification of that administrator Diff Statement by Atsme I’m here to appeal my June 2018 AP2 indef T-ban that was imposed on me by Bishonen at ARCA independently of the case that was filed, noting that I filed a 1st appeal in Aug 2018 and withdrew it within approx 24 hrs with an ArbCom restriction of 6 mos before I could appeal again. The 6 mos. restriction has expired. Over the past few months, I throttled down my editing to focus on family and RL demands, but also managed to devote some private time to reflect on my contributions in the AP2 topic area. I will say that it isn't easy to see oneself objectively but I did try and feel that I’ve succeeded as a result of the time I spent with family and friends who mercilessly indulged me in conversations regarding one of the least favorite topics people want to discuss over the holidays...that being the topic area of this appeal. It was the best thing that could’ve happened as it taught me how to better manage the emotional triggers that topic alone has a tendency to create. It certainly led me to a better understanding of the highly contentious AP2 topic area. More importantly, I’ve learned that the best way to avoid drama in political discussions is to simply stop contributing and walk away. In retrospect, I regret the occasions I strayed from my customary collegial behavior during RfCs and consensus required discussions in the AP2 topic area. I don’t have such issues when editing in other topic areas so I used the latter to gage my behavior in AP2. I now see the biggest problem was my overzealousness to win the debates and gain consensus, showing little consideration to opposing views. The times my position did gain consensus were overshadowed by the inappropriateness of my persistence, and for that I apologize with a promise that it will never happen again. I made a New Year's resolution that if I ever find myself participating in the AP2 topic area again I will stay on point, present my case with civility while keeping brevity in mind, will answer questions if asked and will maintain my customary polite demeaner at all times. If I happen to be notified of an RfC, I will simply cast my iVote, state why, and move on to other areas. I have also read the essays WP:WORLDSEND, WP:DGAF, and WP:LETITGO and have taken them to heart. In closing, I will add that I never before realized how intertwined politics is in our everyday lives, or that such a broad t-ban would be so restrictive to my normal editing activities, particularly when working at AfC and NPP. I also became overly cautious and chose to deny requests for copy editing and lead improvement if I saw even a hint of a potential political undertow in the articles. I did not under any circumstances want to inadvertently violate my t-ban. It has been a heavy burden to carry, and I do hope the decision here will weigh in my favor so I can return to my normal editing activity. ^{Atsme✍🏻📧} 20:05, 20 February 2019 (UTC)[reply] Floq - allegations of specific misconduct without diffs are difficult to address but I understand that going back to find evidence is tedious work, and as an admin you already have a lot on your plate. My appeal is somewhat broad in scope as I believe the crux of my behavior is what led to other behaviors. If it will help, I once copied all the diffs presented against me by MrX and addressed them at User talk:Atsme/RVW back in August in preparation of my 1st appeal. Please select the specific diffs you feel are not covered in my current appeal and I will be happy to address them individually. With regards to your questions about Bishonen, I believe the word I used was bias not hate, and if I did use hate, I apologize, it was totally out of character. With all due respect, I don't think it is appropriate for me to respond directly to that part of your question because I feel it is irrelevant to my appeal in that it has nothing to do with my ability to edit in the AP2 topic area. However, if it will help put your mind at ease, I will say that I hold no animosity toward anyone, regardless of the situation. In fact, I have defended two other editors at AE and/or ANI, SPECIFICO and BullRangifer, who have consistently been opponents in the AP2 topic area. We have maintained a collegial association as editors despite our disagreements. I have kept two diffs from other editors because their comments were unsolicited and I treasure them to this day. Hopefully they will serve to support my position as they are relevent to behavior: 10-26-2018 by an admin, and 03-14-2016 by a user I once filed against at AN/I and now hold in high regard. Sidenote: I am nopinging to avoid the appearance of canvassing. ^{Atsme✍🏻📧} 16:03, 21 February 2019 (UTC)[reply] Floq - this appeal is about my promise to not partake in TE, broadly construed. This is not about Bishonen - she was simply the enforcing admin. If you have an issue with anything I've said related to her, please take it to AN. It does not belong here. This venue is AE regarding editing behavior where DS have been imposed. Thank you. ^{Atsme✍🏻📧} 23:45, 21 February 2019 (UTC)[reply] AWilley - please read my response to Floq. Provide the diffs that have raised your concern, otherwise I cannot provide an appropriate answer without knowing exactly to what you are referring. I need specifics, please. The allegations against me are compiled in the link I provided to Floq above - you can pick the ones you feel I need to address. Without diffs to support a specific allegation, we are treading awfully close to aspersions. The diffs used as evidence against me in my June t-ban are there for the choosing, and my explanations are there as well. I don't recall ever being the editor you described below. While my editing was tendentious, I have never been one to spew nonsense, and will never be that person, unless ^[FBDB] is indicated. I will admit that on a few occasions my humor was sarcastic but we all indulged from time to time. Since my t-ban was imposed, the following discussions have emerged: here and here, so it isn't an issue that is unique to my concerns. Read Masem's statement again as it describes the primary issue well. As for the comments about AP2 becoming a quieter topic area, doesn't that customarily hold true when most of the opposition is eliminated and the bulk of the editing is done by like-minded individuals? Have you considered that since your attempt to impose Special DS on SPECIFICO, he/she has not edited in that topic area since? Others have been on and off. Please don't forget that there have been a substantial number of editors t-banned since June 2018, not just me. ~~Bishonen acknowledged that in her statement.~~ ^{Clarified here 14:38, 27 February 2019 (UTC)} Was it really necessary for you to make such a claim without providing factual information with the numbers to support it? ^{Atsme✍🏻📧} 21:39, 21 February 2019 (UTC)[reply] It was very disheartening to read your response. In your 1st diff, the source is not black listed and can be used with caution, but I took it one step further by adding NYTimes as a source for verification per the diff you provided. Did you not read the diff? There was no error on my part. The 2nd & 3rd diffs you included below - Breitbart which was cherrypicked from an WP:RSN discussion, not from an AP2 article rather it was about something Ben Shapiro had said. The #2 diff was also at RSN. If you had read my comment you would have seen "Editors have to exercise a bit more caution than before when it comes to verifying any publication that's considered a "news source". Bait-click headlines and fallacious content are rampant, and none of them are immune." The Daily Wire and Red State diffs you included were in a question I asked on the Sean Hannity TP regarding edits by an IP - "Can we use Daily Wire which explains the crux of what IP207 is saying?", so again, my references to those sources were taken out of context. Nothing I've said in my appeal has been disengenuous. What you provided as evidence to discredit me regarding sources substantiated nothing that belongs in this appeal, and none of it can be related to disruptive editing which further explains why I did not include it. You have your opinion, AWilley, and there is nothing I can do to change that if you're not going to actually read the diffs in context, but as an admin, you are obligated to at least present the facts correctly. I cannot fix problems that don't exist and if I'm to be blamed for doing things I didn't do, you shouldn't be disappointed if I refuse to apologize for it. I identified the problem that existed regarding my t-ban and Masem's statement helped to validate it. It appears that whether or not I respond to each allegation made by involved editors/admins or choose to ignore them, I will be condemned either way as what Floq just demonstrated - damned if I do - damned if I don't. At least I've corrected the misinformation and properly stated facts, so if I'm to be punished for that, then so be it. I've done the best I can do. ^{Atsme✍🏻📧} 01:13, 22 February 2019 (UTC)[reply] regentspark - I feel that your question relating to Bishonen is irrelevant to my appeal in that it has nothing to do with my ability to edit in the AP2 topic area. Why are you even bringing it up? This is now beginning to appear to be punitive considering this is my first t-ban ever, since I've been an editor, and it was an indef t-ban whereas other editors who have done far worse were given shorter time limits. There is no need for me to vindicate Bishonen's actions. This is a t-ban appeal at AE, not a request for desysopping at AN so why is it even being discussed? No, I have no intention of filing for a desysop of Bishonen. My statement in my appeal is thorough and to the point. Your questions go beyond what is expected in an appeal. I've made my statement and acknowledged the areas where I need to improve - if you have reason to believe there are other areas that I need to improve, then provide the diffs please. I actually went back and studied the diffs that were used against me, and asked Newyorkbrad for the specifics. His response was quite vague - not one diff was mentioned. Editors who make allegations about another editor are expected to provide diffs to support their allegations. With all due respect, I ask for the same consideration. Provide the diffs so that I may respond with an intelligent, well-thought out answer to your questions. ^{Atsme✍🏻📧} 21:39, 21 February 2019 (UTC)[reply] regentspark - I hope it doesn't create an issue, but I just bolded a portion of my text above to emphasize the crux of my appeal. In totality, that is the part that really matters. The focus here is supposed to be a remedy for disruptive behavior, and to deny my appeal based only on speculation and dismissing what I've vowed to do is not fair to me or the project. If you haven't actually studied the diffs in context that were used against me, and I copied to User talk:Atsme/RVW, please take the time to do so because they are what my t-ban was based on - and this appeal is about that t-ban. If you find anything in those diffs that I have not addressed, please advise so we can discuss it. I am a person of principal and I honor my commitments. You can take my words at face value. I am not hiding behind anonymity - what you see is what you get - my real id is on the line here, and I was hoping that my years as an editor have been far more productive than disruptive, so please don't judge me based on this one t-ban. In fact, it would be wonderful if every editor who participated in the AP2 topic area would make a behavior vow similar to mine. AE would look like a ghost town. ^{Atsme✍🏻📧} 03:29, 22 February 2019 (UTC)[reply] MastCell - please provide the diffs you are referencing so that I may address your concerns. ^{Atsme✍🏻📧} 22:28, 21 February 2019 (UTC)[reply] MastCell - I have asked you to provide diffs so that I can respond to your specific concerns but you have not. I provided a link to my explanations of the diffs that were used to support the allegations against me in my original t-ban but I'll do it again specifically for you, only this time I've added a hashtag to the relevant diffs: User_talk:Atsme/RVW#Explanation_for_above_allegations_presented_in_context_below. Harvard University conducted a study last year that is available for all to download for free here. It's an interesting study. What Harvard published is an academic study, MastCell, not a news source. You are accusing me of wikilawyering when all I'm trying to do is state the facts. Show me the diffs that make you believe I'm on a "misconceived crusade against reliable media sources". Are you talking about discussions years ago at RS/N or NPOV/N, or are you talking about discussions on article TPs, wherein I've exercised caution as it applies to NOTNEWS, RECENTISM and other related PAGs, especially when unidentified informants were used as sources? Please, point me to the diffs that have given you pause, and have led you to say the hurtful things you've said about me, and with what appears to be anger and unyielding distrust. I've never seen this side of you, and I'm truly hurt by the things you've said. Show me the specific diffs that support the following comments you made about me, and I promise you that I will study them, yet again, and will try my best to ease your mind: "The major concern was that Atsme consistently undermined or obstructed reliable sources, dismissed high-quality journalistic sources as "propaganda", and mischaracterized fact as opinion, all in service of an apparent ideological agenda.", and "Atsme's misconceived crusade against reliable media sources, and ...despite Atsme's unwillingness to substantively engage with the issues that led to the original ban. ^{Atsme✍🏻📧} 22:53, 26 February 2019 (UTC)[reply] MastCell, you have to read the diffs in the context they were intended, and to do that you have to read the full discussion. Surely you don't expect me to explain their context here, do you? If you're going to repeat AWilley's questions, then you should have included my response to him as well. What I can say unequivocally to you now is that, to my knowledge, I have always adhered to our PAGs. I believe WP:NOTNEWS is very clear in that Wikipedia is not a newspaper. The policy also states: However, not all verifiable events are suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia and it cautions us about original reporting and that we should not offer first-hand news reports on breaking stories. Wikipedia does not constitute a primary source. It also states, While including information on recent developments is sometimes appropriate, breaking news should not be emphasized or otherwise treated differently from other information. Timely news subjects not suitable for Wikipedia may be suitable for our sister project Wikinews. And then there is WP:RECENTISM - Allegations of recentism should prompt consideration of proportion, balance, and due weight. Material may need to be moved, deleted, or added to. Certain articles might be merged or placed on Wikipedia:Articles for deletion; conversely, articles may need to be split into new articles for balance. Sometimes in-depth information on current events is more appropriately added to Wikinews, which can be reached here. And finally, WP:NEWSORG which states News reporting from well-established news outlets is generally considered to be reliable for statements of fact (though even the most reputable reporting sometimes contains errors). In reviewing the diffs you provided, I see where I could have been more selective in my choice of words, and I should not have strayed off-point to indulge in unnecessary debate. I will continue to adhere to our PAGs as I always have, and if I ever find myself editing in the AP2 topic area again, I will behave in the manner I described in my appeal. ^{Atsme✍🏻📧} 02:12, 27 February 2019 (UTC)[reply] In the diff you referenced, you have to read the discussion for proper context. The article is about Trump's racial views, and the section of the discussion is "Shithole countries". I was trying to demonstrate to my Wikifriend MPants at work that we have residents along the Texas border who don't consider a border wall as racially motivated, rather they see it as preventing crime, drug trafficking, etc. What I've read in left leaning mainstream sources is the exact opposite, and some appear to be politically driven regarding this issue. Of course, each case is different and why it is our job to evaluate the sources, read the articles and include material in compliance with NPOV. In that discussion I linked to a couple of local and regional sources, including this article, which reported the killing of an innocent angler who got too close to the drug camps, and this one about the increase in migrants from "countries as distant as Bangladesh and Pakistan". I also included a link to the cartel crime stats in Texas. I'm comfortable with what I demonstrated to MPants, and believe it was worthy of consideration. That's what we're supposed to do on article talk pages. ^{Atsme✍🏻📧} 04:14, 28 February 2019 (UTC)[reply] MastCell I answered your question above but forgot to ping you. This will be my final comment, and I hope it puts your concerns to rest. In an effort to present the diffs in proper context, please keep the date of the diffs in mind and that the discussion was about the inclusion of specific material in Donald Trump or Racial views of Donald Trump where BLP policy takes precedence. The basis of the discussion was racism and I believe we all know there are two sides to that argument which has already been addressed below by DGG, Masem, Vanamonde, and others. I do give credence to RS such as WaPo and NYTimes, and there are plenty of instances that support what I'm saying now. However, as GoldenRing said below, if I had turned up here "arguing about those same diffs, we'd send her packing for re-litigating the ban." I look at the proposed material to be added/restored/deleted, specifically the article(s) cited, and then I research to corroborate the material as published by other RS; i.e. writing for the opposition. As a result, I've been painted as the opposition in a derogatory manner. I am very cautious of clickbait headlines, and I do strictly adhere to NEWSORG and RECENTISM. I wish more editors would do the same. I often look to the NYTimes and WaPo to corroborate other sources, and vice versa. They are the staples of mainstream media, but they are not infallible. Journalists for both publications tend to lean left. FOX News is criticized as being far right, yet Marc Thiessen with the Washington Post is a Fox News contributor. If we don't read different views, we cannot possibly achieve proper WEIGHT and BALANCE, and we'd be doing the project a disservice. Consensus typically finds the middle ground but we should not silence opposing views, or censor them by ommission. Another aspect for consideration when isolating diffs as evidence - the diffs used were from last year which further demonstrates the blow back of RECENTISM. We have since learned more about that particular issue; however, at the time of the diffs, we did not have all the information, and there were other RS with opposing views that I attempted to impress upon for inclusion to satisfy NPOV (my choice of words back then were not the best). I am not the editor you have characterized based on a few diffs taken out of context. ^{Atsme✍🏻📧} 15:13, 28 February 2019 (UTC)[reply] Drmies - of course there is a human crisis at the southern border, and something needs to be done about it but AE is not the place to discuss it, and certainly not now. Instead of automatically believing the worst of me, you should have noticed that picture was posted a year ago on my TP and it is no longer there. The story behind it was actually a true situation when a friend's kids were watching TV and saw all the kids playing in one of the camps, and they actually thought it was a summer camp where they could go. Real life moment. Secondly, it has no relevance to this appeal except as an attempt to unfairly smear me, and it should be removed. ^{Atsme✍🏻📧} 05:49, 22 February 2019 (UTC)[reply] Bishonen - I was actually referring to the section here for involved editors.^{Atsme✍🏻📧} 14:28, 22 February 2019 (UTC)[reply] Bish, my apologies for the confusion. Regarding the disruption comment, I was actually referring to your statement in the original case wherein you said, "I should say that Am Pol is no rosegarden even if we disregard Atsme's input, and probably won't be one even if my ban is upheld. Several people have recommended an AP3 case to deal with the chaos on Trump-related pages. This diff. Probably not the best example but it made sense at the time. With regard to the other issue, my reference was to the section title below where "Involved editors" are supposed to comment - involved in the regard MastCell mentioned and where other editors have participated in AP2, I suppose. Perhaps I was confused over what you said. Anyway, work awaits, and I think it's time for me to get busy responding to CE requests. Enjoy the day! ^{Atsme✍🏻📧} 17:59, 22 February 2019 (UTC)[reply] Just wanted to respond to MVBW's use of this link which appears to have raised some doubt. It actually turns out to be an excellent example of what I have already identified as the problem I vowed to not repeat. In that diff, I was overzealous, wandered off point, and clearly lacked brevity - please read my close in that diff which is actually the point I was trying to make - Use inline text attribution, follow the RS guideline for material that may be challenged, avoid policy noncompliance and apply BRD to rid an article of biased garbage and fallacious claims. Unfortunately, my close was completely lost primarily because of what I have properly described in my appeal as the crux of my problem. I reiterate...overzealousness, lack of brevity, wandering off point - and that's what led to the issues that were raised. Had I simply stated what I stated in the close instead of all the rambling that preceded it, my comment would not have been an issue...except for some of the ending terminology which I will not use in that manner in the future. ^{Atsme✍🏻📧} 18:20, 22 February 2019 (UTC)[reply] Vanamonde93, thank you for expressing your concerns. I fondly remember our past discussions and your willingness to help. In response to your concerns regarding admin actions, please rest assured that I have read WP:INVOLVED more than once, and understand it well. Regarding your second concern, ...to commit to keeping discussions on topic, and adhering to the guidelines as they are written, I believe the bolded portion of my appeal addresses "on topic", but I used the words "on point" - please consider it to mean the same thing. Regarding the remainder of your concern...my unyielding adherence to guidelines is part of what got me here - and there is also IAR to consider - but I think I understand the gist of your concern. Please rest assured, I have found the middle button, and know when to leave well-enough alone. My interpretation of our PAGs have served me well over the years in the topic areas I've been involved, including as a reviewer at NPP & AfC, as an OTRS agent, at AfD, in GA & FA reviews, and as an occasional contributor in discussions necessitating PAG modifications for improved clarity and less ambiguity. I hope my response will put your mind at ease. ^{Atsme✍🏻📧} 14:31, 27 February 2019 (UTC)[reply] Statement by Bishonen I don't think I'll comment here, unless someone should have an urgent question for me. But it might be useful to have a link to my topic ban rationale. Here it is. Bishonen \| talk 21:06, 20 February 2019 (UTC).[reply] It turns out I've nevertheless got a few questions now: @Atsme: You say "Please don't forget that there have been a substantial number of editors t-banned since June 2018, not just me. Bishonen acknowledged that in her statement." I'm not quite following that. I acknowledged what, where? @Atsme: I notice that now you meet some resistance, the allegations of "involved administrators" appear again: "It appears that whether or not I respond to each allegation made by involved editors/admins or choose to ignore them, I will be condemned either way". Not sure who you're referring to as involved — is it Awilley? Awilley and some others? Bishonen \| talk 12:47, 22 February 2019 (UTC).[reply] @Fish and karate: You point out that Atsme's banner about the Trump summer camps is seven months old, and "unless there's evidence of recent advocacy [you're] not really concerned about that". How could there be more recent advocacy, when she has been topic banned from American politics for the last seven months? And has properly abided by the ban. Anything Am Pol-related from Atsme is going to be at least seven months. Bishonen \| talk 12:47, 22 February 2019 (UTC).[reply] @Atsme: I was hoping this needn't turn into a whole discussion, but I'm more confused now than before you posted your reply. Does it refer to both my questions, or is there more coming? Where is there a section for involved editors? Where in my statement (presumably not my brief statement above, so what statement?) did I acknowledge "that there have been a substantial number of editors t-banned since June 2018, not just [you]"? Bishonen \| talk 16:47, 22 February 2019 (UTC).[reply] Statement by Mr Ernie I would support a lifting of the restriction. This is a very introspective appeal. Atsme is intelligent and articulate, which are characteristics of editors we need on the project. I believe them when they say they've taken those instructive essays to heart. Mr Ernie (talk) 20:57, 20 February 2019 (UTC)[reply] There’s a risk that this could now go on and on with editors coming in with specific questions about what would you do in this case, what do you think about this, what do you think about that. I would encourage us to AGF and believe Atsme when they say they will approach this topic with better behavior. Most admins below seem to support lifting the topic ban, so how long do we need to go round and round here? Mr Ernie (talk) 18:56, 22 February 2019 (UTC)[reply] Statement by MrX Any administrators considering whether to lift this topic ban should evaluate whether Atsme's appeal addresses the full extent of the conduct that resulted in the topic ban. As the editor who brought the original complaint, I can say that it had nothing to do with civility. Brevity and staying on point are necessary, but so is refraining from the other behaviors that lead to the ban: whataboutism, discrediting reliable sources, claiming bias and propaganda in reliable sources, filibustering, sidetracking discussions, POV fighting, rehashing comments, refusing to get the point, distorting policies, and wikilawyering. After Atsme was topic banned, the quality of discussion on several American politics talk pages improved markedly. If the topic ban is lifted, it should come with a firm provision that any recidivism will result in a resumption of the topic ban. - Mr X 🖋 02:30, 21 February 2019 (UTC)[reply] @PackMecEng: I stand by my assertion that the discussions on the Trump talk pages improved in brevity, adherence to the topic, and quality. What's interesting is that if you think they have been the same or worse, why you have not raised your concerns at AE. It's not like you haven't been here before.- Mr X 🖋 15:32, 21 February 2019 (UTC)[reply] It might be helpful to know if Atsme still believes that "the media" is biased and proven to be 90% negative against Donald Trump, or if separating immigrant children from their parents is Barack Obama's fault.[1] Does she still believe that news sources "spin the truth"?[2]. Has her opinion changed that The Washington Post is "highly misleading and inaccurate" when they say "It has become standard operating procedure for Trump and his aides to deceive the public with false statements and shifting accounts."? Does she still believe that CNN, WaPo, NYTimes report disinformation?[3] Does she still think that her close friends on the border are better sources than Leftist mainstream media?[4] - Mr X 🖋 22:57, 21 February 2019 (UTC)[reply] Statement by MONGO Atsme is kind, is polite, is passionate about her editing, truly cares and wants to help keep articles balanced in their wording. While Atsme claims that she has had RL issues and what not to attend to since, I feel that the ban took the wind out of her sails for most anything on the site. I therefore support seeing the ban lifted but offer advice should this happen. That advice to Atsme is to not waste your precious hours arguing with editors that loiter on these political articles. While its fine to cast a "vote" and to offer a very concise explanation, the inevitable hectoring from those that disagree with you should be met with no response, no response at all. Brevity is the soul of wit. You will not change their minds, as their minds are made up. Avoid those drama-laden articles where no good happens, no one smiles, no one is happy, where people waste thousands of edits and yet the article is no where near to achieving even a "Good" rating because the article is merely a collection of twisted sound bites, told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing. Yes, lift the ban so we can put this behind us and Atsme won't be carrying this on her otherwise quite excellent wiki-resume any longer.--MONGO (talk) 04:24, 21 February 2019 (UTC)[reply] Simply adding that Atsme is going to be watched quite obviously. The chance she is going to make an irreversible error is next to zero and if she does err in a manner unpleasing to those here that object to her unbanning, it will surely be quite easy to ban her again, and that will likely be irreversible...at least in the near term.--MONGO (talk) 01:08, 22 February 2019 (UTC)[reply] Statement by Winged Blades of Godric The appeal looks sincere and impresses upon me that she has understood the problems of her erstwhile conduct in the area. Support a grant. ∯WBG^converse 11:04, 21 February 2019 (UTC)[reply] Statement by Floq @Atsme:, do you still believe the topic ban was placed unfairly, as retaliation by an involved admin who did so because she hates you? That it should have resulted in Bishonen's desysop? You said that - several times - on your talk page when it was first imposed, and while I haven't gone digging for diffs (I can if you believe I'm being inaccurate), I recall you saying similar things a whole bunch of times after that. Has that perspective changed as well? I'd also value your opinion on MrX's comment above. Do you think the only problem with your behavior was that you weren't being nice and were too longwinded? I'm a friend of Bish's, so I'll consider myself involved, but these are the kind of things I think uninvolved admins should be asking. --Floquenbeam (talk) 13:37, 21 February 2019 (UTC)[reply] @Atsme: Why are you asking for diffs about things that you 100% know you said? Two of which you linked to yourself above? Here are 3 obvious, easy ones: Atsme's statement in response to MrX's ARCA filing: [5] Atsme's comments on her own talk page after the t-ban imposition: [6] Atsme's statement in her appeal in August: [7] Do a ctrl-f for "Bishonen" in each section and at least a half dozen examples of accusing her of malfeasance will show up in each one. --Floquenbeam (talk) 22:52, 21 February 2019 (UTC)[reply] Last reply: I am not trying to get you further sanctioned for the baseless accusations you made about Bishonen 6 months ago. I'm trying to evaluate whether you still have the same battleground mentality and proclivity for gamesmanship in an argument that caused the topic ban to be imposed in the first place. I think you've answered that question, so I'll go find something else to do now. --Floquenbeam (talk) 23:56, 21 February 2019 (UTC)[reply] Statement by MastCell I'm concerned that this appeal shows no indication that Atsme understands the rationale behind the topic ban. She states that she has learned the importance of being brief and remaining civil. True, there was an element of bludgeoning in her previous participation in the topic area, and her commitment to avoid that behavior going forward is welcome. But the topic ban was not placed because Atsme was uncivil, or overly prolix. (If anything, commentary in the initial topic ban discussion generally praised her civility). The major concern was that Atsme consistently undermined or obstructed reliable sources, dismissed high-quality journalistic sources as "propaganda", and mischaracterized fact as opinion, all in service of an apparent ideological agenda. Those behaviors were rightly identified as toxic to our efforts to cover political topics accurately and neutrally. I would absolutely oppose lifting this topic ban unless and until Atsme grapples with the actual reasons that it was placed. And that's a practical consideration, not a personal one: if she doesn't understand why the topic ban was placed, then she will certainly run into the same trouble again. We currently have a major problem on American-politics articles with editors who inappropriately dismiss, stonewall, or undermine reliable sources on partisan grounds, and who enable and amplify each other in doing so. Adding Atsme back to the topic area is a mistake unless it's clear that this behavior isn't going to be repeated. Separately, Atsme's reaction to the topic ban was highly, and somewhat indiscriminately, belligerent. She attacked various editors and admins as biased, disruptive, and so on, often without any substantive evidence. I understand that, to some extent, this was a fight-or-flight reaction in the heat of the moment. But if that's the case, then I think it's reasonable to ask for some introspection on Atsme's part. How does she view her reaction to the topic ban now, at a distance? Does she continue to believe that it was motivated by bias and personal malice? Does she feel an apology is owed to any, some, or all of the people whom she attacked? I'm placing myself in this section, rather than the uninvolved-admin section, because I've interacted with Atsme quite a bit. We've often disagreed; we've sometimes agreed; we've generally been friendly. But, like Floquenbeam, these are the kinds of questions I would expect uninvolved admins to ask, as part of their basic due diligence, before entertaining removal of this topic ban (thank you, RegentsPark and Awilley). MastCell ^Talk 21:32, 21 February 2019 (UTC)[reply] @Atsme: Like Floquenbeam, I think it's silly (if not dishonest) to demand diffs when we both know exactly what I'm talking about. And I see that after Awilley went to the trouble of fetching the shrubbery you demanded, and provided an exhaustive list of diffs, you responded: "I'm not going to go over each one of your cherrypicked diffs". To me, this looks like straight-up wikilawyering on your part, to avoid taking responsibility for your statements and actions. I'm absolutely opposed to lifting the topic ban at this point, because I think Atsme's responses provide no reason to believe that anything will be different if the ban is lifted. MastCell ^Talk 22:23, 22 February 2019 (UTC)[reply] I continue to feel that Atsme has not understood the reasons for her topic ban, and that she will therefore inevitably return to the same behaviors. (After all, how can one change a behavior if one doesn't realize that it was problematic in the first place?) Worse, some commenters have actually enabled Atsme's misconceived crusade against reliable media sources. I'm also concerned by the blithe assurances that Atsme will simply be re-banned if she strays again—that burden is going to borne by the people commenting up here, which is why we're so insistent on figuring out whether she's actually learned anything. Since this ban appeal looks likely to succeed, I will expect the admins who voted in favor of it (despite Atsme's unwillingness to substantively engage with the issues that led to the original ban) to be personally available and willing to act if the problematic behaviors resume. MastCell ^Talk 20:51, 26 February 2019 (UTC)[reply] Atsme, I've already addressed your request for diffs, but will do so again. Let's start with the list of diffs supplied by Awilley here. Those diffs are a reasonable representation of what concerns me. Specifically: "if you don't live along a southern border in the US, or within 100 miles of it, you can't possibly know what really goes on. If you think leftist MSM is going to tell you, think again... MSM has done a great job with their open border propaganda and keeping the American people uninformed via ommission." This is an outright rejection of this site's sourcing guidelines and policies, and an assault on reliable sources as the foundation of our content, with the suggestion that we should replace reliably-sourced content with testimonials from people living within an arbitrary radius of the southern border. You again attack reliable sources, on political grounds: "enforcement of those laws has obviously become politicized and sensationalized by clickbait media, most of which are proven to be 90% negative toward Trump. Ironically, some of the very same media who attempted to circulate images of children in fenced cages, blamed Trump when the images were actually from the Obama administration... enough already with the back and forth here, all of which is based on biased media reporting to appeal to human compassion (more like propaganda), none of which to date is supported by factual evidence... the biased media wants to blame Trump for everything, including the mistakes of prior admins. Oh, and ask yourselves honestly if we allow such material in the Trump BLP, are we going to include the related information in the Bush & Obama administrations, considering they should be considered equally at fault?" (You promote the falsehood that Trump's family-separation policy is substantially the same as Obama's. While promoting politically-motivated falsehoods on talkpages is not necessarily sanctionable, neither is it desirable behavior.) Another attack on reliable sources: "No, (the sources) are not clear, they are spinning the truth, playing on human emotion and are not properly presenting the actual facts, which includes purposeful child endangerment by the parents who are being arrested for not entering legally via ports of entry and by adults who are trafficking children, etc." More attacks on reliable sources: "Surely you have the needed editorial discretion to make a sound judgment call between what biased clickbait media portrays and what Trump's actions and actual FACTS tell us. Show me one instance in the Trump presidency that supports white supremacy other than the spin by biased media, and I will be expeditiously change my position about the topic... I'm not ok with the media creating their own facts after the questions have been answered." (I've borrowed these from Awilley; you declined to address them when he presented them to you.) These are a small sample, but they illustrate my major concern: you have attacked, undermined, and rejected reliable sources because they conflict with your personal political viewpoints. That was a central reason for the topic ban. Has that changed? How do you view these diffs now—do you continue to endorse them? Will you commit to accepting news reporting from reputable journalistic outlets, like the New York Times or Washington Post, as reliable sources—even if you personally disagree with their content? Will you, at a minimum, stop actively attacking and sabotaging these reliable sources on Wikipedia? Will you refrain from using talk pages to promote politically motivated falsehoods? MastCell ^Talk 23:22, 26 February 2019 (UTC)[reply] Atsme, your response is, well, non-responsive. I don't need a lecture about WP:RECENTISM and WP:NOTNEWS. You were not invoking those policies in the diffs I presented. You were arguing that reliable sources are biased against Donald Trump and should be deprecated. Here you explicitly state that reliable sources cannot be trusted because they are inherently "leftist", and dedicated to spreading deliberate misinformation and "open border propaganda". That has absolutely nothing to do with RECENTISM or NOTNEWS—it is a straight-up rejection of this site's basic sourcing policies. Can you explain, without cut-and-pasting large swathes of irrelevant policy, whether you continue to hold the sentiments expressed in that diff? MastCell ^Talk 02:16, 28 February 2019 (UTC)[reply] Vanamonde, I think we're on the same page. The issue is not Atsme's personal beliefs per se, but rather her insistence on blocking the use of reliable sources on the basis of those beliefs. Atsme is free to regard the New York Times and the Washington Post as "leftist open border propaganda". I just want her to commit to stop using those opinions to stonewall the use of reliable sources on Wikipedia. (As an analogy, we've had plenty of editors who reject the scientific literature, but we generally don't allow them to write our articles on vaccination). It's pretty clear to me that a) Atsme has done this and b) that she doesn't have any insight into this issue at all. But if no one else is seeing that, then hey. MastCell ^Talk 04:39, 28 February 2019 (UTC)[reply] Statement by Softlavender In her responses to administrators here, Atsme is going right back into the WP:BATTLEGROUND behavior and self-justification that got her the indef topic ban. Sample: "it was an indef t-ban whereas other editors who have done far worse were given shorter time limits." Sample: bringing up Newyorkbrad who wisely ignored her belligerent baiting demands on his talkpage back then: "I actually went back and studied the diffs that were used against me, and asked Newyorkbrad for the specifics. His response was quite vague - not one diff was mentioned." Etc. All this says to me that Atsme has not been rehabilitated, does not understand her own behavioral problems, and will likely continue with battleground attacks and self-justifying recriminations if the topic ban is lifted at this time. I will also note that over the course of her TBan she complained fairly noticeably about the TBan, usually symbolically, indirectly, or covertly, but clearly, including to kindred spirits like Winkelvi, including posting images of a person with their mouth gagged, and so on. I recommend retaining the TBan. Possibly an appeal in another six months will be less belligerent and more self-responsible. Softlavender (talk) 00:33, 22 February 2019 (UTC)[reply] Statement by K.e.coffman I've been involved in the general topic area, but not in the specific disputes with Atsme. I'm concerned about potentially continued advocacy that may be contrary to the goals of the project, such as inclusivity and tolerance. For example, Atsme's Talk page displayed the following in July of 2018: I asked the kids where they want to go for summer vacation. They yelled, Kid's summer camp!! I asked where? They said, Trump's immigration camp on the border, where all the other kids get to go. Source: permalink. If the appeal is granted, I would like to request Atsme to please refrain from broadcasting intolerant messages in userspace. I'm also concerned about the lack of acknowledgement of past battleground behaviour, as specifically was evident in the first appeal. At the time, I described it as "borderline harassment of the editor who submitted the original request": Wikipedia talk:Arbitration/Requests/Case/American politics_2#Statement by K.e.coffman. I see this as more than "stray[ing] from my customary collegial behavior". Perhaps, a one-way interaction ban should be considered in case the appeal is successful. K.e.coffman (talk) 01:36, 22 February 2019 (UTC)[reply] In re: this response [8] to my statement, the "real life moment" was posted without context and the sentiment it seems to express was echoed in an unrelated user Talk page discussion about the Trump administration family separation policy: "the whole affair has been sensationalized by media - great clickbait - our local news has assured us that the kids are fine, and living under the best of conditions. Our American children who are homeless wish they had it so good. The hook audio of babies crying is done with a purpose, specifically to persuade the midterms..." [9]. I noticed Atsme's response because I started the thread: permalink, and then took a look at Atsme's Talk page and found more of the same. I believe that such comments are relevant to the appeal, as Atsme asserted that reliable sources were "clickbait" and ascribed nefarious motives to the journalists covering the family separation policy, apart from my concerns about the nature of the Talk page banner. Such comments are toxic in the AP area, and I was asking Atsme to avoid them in the future should she return to editing these topic. --K.e.coffman (talk) 22:15, 22 February 2019 (UTC)[reply] Ading ping @Fish and karate: as you have commented on my statement. --K.e.coffman (talk) 22:23, 22 February 2019 (UTC)[reply] Statement by Drmies Whoa, that kid's summer camp was new to me. Atsme, I do not understand how you ever thought that was funny. Those kids, separated from their families, many of them fleeing abuse only to land in more abuse, deserve much better than that. Drmies (talk) 04:46, 22 February 2019 (UTC)[reply] Masem, I am puzzled by your comment on reliable sources. You say it's become common to "blindly use sources in a slavish manner without question, while there are others (which I'd include myself in and consider Atsme in as well) that feel that it wholly appropriate to consider the state of the state before blindly using sources". The "blindly" thing is a complete straw man, as if the regular editors don't have editorial judgment; and Atsme, well, I am not aware that I've seen her reasonably and comprehensive question reliable sources. I have seen doubt being cast more generally on "the mainstream media", as if there isn't any reliability at all anymore. I sure hope that, if this topic ban is lifted, we will see less of that cynicism. Seriously, "blindly using sources"--I am going to sign off before I will really start to doubt your judgment. Drmies (talk) 03:06, 27 February 2019 (UTC)[reply] Statement by Objective3000 I’m generally in favor of second chances, and I really like to see contrite appeals acknowledging past error and plans to avoid those errs in future. Atsme’s appeal was, indeed, contrite and promised avoidance of further problems. It was very well presented. Unfortunately, I believe it was off topic. Atsme was not banned for incivility. MrX gives a brief rundown of the many problems with her past behavior related to AP2 articles. I agree with all of MrX’s observations and haven’t seen any indication that they won’t be repeated. I would feel far more comfortable with an acknowledgement of these problems. And, I fear anyone with such a dim view of sources like WaPo and NYT, while accepting Breitbart, will continue to experience difficulties in AP2. Having said all that, Atsme is a solid contributor in non-AP2 areas. It would be an unfortunate outcome should reinsertion in the AP2 arena degrade her contributions to other areas of the project. O3000 (talk) 15:01, 22 February 2019 (UTC)[reply] Comment by JzG Atsme is a lovely person, but I have encountered exactly the same behaviour since I first encountered her over her edits to G. Edward Griffin (edit \| talk \| history \| protect \| delete \| links \| watch \| logs \| views) in 2015, and also in other cases related to her hot-button issues. The tban here is entirely defensible, and any lifting would basically require a voluntary restriction almost as broad, I'm afraid. I think this is just how Atsme is. The good news is that everywhere else, I find she is an absolute delight, endlessly helpful and polite. Guy (Help!) 18:33, 22 February 2019 (UTC)[reply] @DGG: I understand your point, but Atsme has not simply advanced a political POV, she has rejected reliable sources on the basis that they conflict with her ideology. That is a specific and very real problem. The right wing media bubble is now almost completely disconnected from the continuum of mainstream media. Fox used to cite the WSJ and even WaPo, but this declined sharply after Fox lost viewers over ideological purity, with Breitbart taking up the slack. Fox has regained mindshare in the right only since it stopped referencing mainstream sources in its main segments. These days the word "mainstream" is used by the political right as a synonym for "liberal". That is profoundly dangerous. It casts propaganda and journalism as equivalents. The mainstream media includes the Wall Street Journal, remember, which has an editorial policy that is fiscally and socially conservative and rejects climate change on ideological grounds. I find Atsme's rejection of sources simply because they are mainstream to be profoundly disturbing. It is antithetical to WP:V, WP:RS and WP:NPOV - and it was in evidence over the dispute in 2015 around G. Edward Griffin (a member of the John Birch Society), with a distinct conspiracist tinge. Guy (Help!) 22:40, 22 February 2019 (UTC)[reply] Statement by JFG Atsme is one of the most level-headed editors I have ever encountered in the DS/AP area. Sure, she tends to be rather argumentative when discussing contentious issues, but isn't that what talk pages are for? I'd much rather deal with the occasional talk page bludgeoning than with a sneaky WP:NINJA editor or a holier-than-thou WP:POVFIGHTER. Atsme has personal bias, as we all do, but she doesn't let her personal opinions get in the way of the overall goal of the encyclopedia. I believe the enforced break may have improved her sense of understanding when she should drop the stick, or in her own words WP:LETITGO. She also has a thick-enough skin to withstand whatever criticism of her actions may further arise. Last but not least, I am looking forward to enjoying her sense of humour again. Support ~~unblock~~ lifting TBAN. — JFG ^talk 09:32, 23 February 2019 (UTC)[reply] Statement by Darouet I support the lifting of these sanctions. Atsme is not merely a kind editor, something that most have acknowledged here. She is also a superb editor and an example to other editors all across the project: sharp, dedicated, and involved in content creation. Atsme has a very strong record of improving site content. And Atsme appears kind because her tone reflects her generally thoughtful attitude to her editing. Atsme's kindness and corresponding thoughtfulness have not always been reciprocated either by editors or admins at US politics pages, as she has demonstrated. Atsme's concerns in this regard were evidently not considered seriously since she was topic banned just minutes after posting diffs to defend herself. I strongly agree with more or less every aspect of DGG's statement on this case, highlighting that "it is essential for the proper presentation of controversial topics that all views be represented, proportionately and fairly," and "US courts have long held that the rules on free speech and press apply particularly to political matters." This is wholly consistent with Atsme's original appeal: "I didn't think civil disagreement while seeking consensus would be grounds for a sanction." -Darouet (talk) 18:29, 24 February 2019 (UTC)[reply] Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by Atsme Comment by Shrike I think Atsme learned from her mistakes and I support the appeal --Shrike (talk) 13:55, 21 February 2019 (UTC)[reply] Comment by PackMecEng For what it is worth it certainly seems she has learned her lesson. I think her contributions elsewhere speak for themselves on that issue. Her response here also clearly shows she has seen the issues with past behavior and has learned form them. I must disagree with MrX's point above though, at best discussions on those pages are the same or worse. To say since the removal of Atsme the pages have "improved markedly" is rather perplexing and an unnecessary comment. I also think that many people will have an eye on her in that subject area and be quick to report any infractions should issues arise. In the end Astme is a productive and valuable editor and it would be a shame if she could not help improve all topics. PackMecEng (talk) 15:07, 21 February 2019 (UTC)[reply] @MrX: I tend not to complain as much.[10] Unless something becomes a large problem or if I think something positive would actually come of it. PackMecEng (talk) 15:49, 21 February 2019 (UTC)[reply] So at this point it looks like just about everyone is in agreement to lift the sanction and keep an eye on things. Sound like a plan? PackMecEng (talk) 03:32, 28 February 2019 (UTC)[reply] Comment by Masem Not really directly involved in any fashion but I've rubbed up against Atsme and other involved editors enough to consider myself "involved", if only that I share Atsme's stance on how we are treating these topics. I've been in the same boat before with Gamergate (where my policy-based discussed on talk pages were considered by some to be disruptive but not determined to be by Arbcom), and in reviewing the diffs from the original AP actions, the worst I see is the tendentious editing facet, but everything else argued then seemed to be an attempt to silence a dissenting voice that is bringing up valid policy-related matters and otherwise not outright disruptive. (I've seen this far too much in other venues outside AP2) As long as Atsme is aware of TE issues and is willing to back off if told they're approaching that point, then there's no reason to not lift the ban. AP2 is going to naturally create animosity between editors, but we have to be careful to vilify those that seem to be contrary but are otherwise fairly arguing. Talk pages are there to work it out. --Masem (t) 15:49, 21 February 2019 (UTC)[reply] From Mastcell's comment The major concern was that Atsme consistently undermined or obstructed reliable sources, dismissed high-quality journalistic sources as "propaganda", and mischaracterized fact as opinion, all in service of an apparent ideological agenda. How one views what Atsme did (per diffs of the AP2 complaint) is eye-of-the-beholder stance. There is an unfortunate trend over the last several years that editors want to blindly use sources in a slavish manner without question, while there are others (which I'd include myself in and consider Atsme in as well) that feel that it wholly appropriate to consider the state of the state before blindly using sources. Which way to go is not prescribed by any policy, so there's no right or wrong way, thus it is improper to consider Atsme's interactions as disruptive for these types of comments is in poor judgement. Otherwise, this becomes a very easy way to silence opponents (the same problems happening at Gamergate) That there was TE-ness in their edits, that's very different and an actionable manner and one that, should their ban be lifted, to make sure Atsme stays away from. --Masem (t) 21:59, 21 February 2019 (UTC)[reply] I'm simply re-stating the original basis for the topic ban. I'm not interested in re-litigating its merits with you, nor do I think you're doing Atsme any favors by minimizing and normalizing the behavior that got her topic-banned. MastCell ^Talk 22:06, 21 February 2019 (UTC)[reply] Looking at the four diffs presented by MastCell, I want to comment on those. First, I do want to point out this statement from Bishonen's block action [11], I institute this ban per all MrX's categories: wikilawyering, long-time persistent resistance to good advice, repeating arguments ad nauseum, filibustering and dominating discussions without bringing them forward, and, most of all, for repeatedly discrediting reliable sources. The first four of those five (well, perhaps not the persistence resistance one) are all actionable as behavioral problems that have zero to do with any content, source reliability, or the like. I know I've been on the WP:TE side of talk page discussions, and long since tries to disengage as soon as I feel I'm going there, and that's something that is not unreasonable to expect with Atsme here. Those four behaviors can be disruptive and should be dealt with. The fact that Atsme backed off, and in this recognized the TE behavior as a problem is all reason to lift the ban, with cautionary restrictions should that behavior arise again. The last one of Bishonen's areas is tied to MastCell's four diffs, and that's the area that I think is all in the "eye of the beholder". Where some might see those diffs as refusing to accept that reliable sources are beyond reproach, I see someone asking us to look at the bigger picture and how to consider those sources in treating a controvesial topic in a neutral manner. We're not an ivory tower or walled garden, and have every ability to question the sources', particularly in like of NPOV. No policy requires us to accept RSes at face value, a fact that tends to get lost in the current AP2 topic area. I do think some of Atsme's characterizations of sources get a bit too strong, but not to an actionable point - its only when combined with the TE-ness of how they discuss topics that makes the overall behavior troublesome. But to ask questions of source reliable is 100% fair game for a talk page discussion that doesn't veer into TE-like discussions. I would caution going too much into exactly how much we can question RSes, as that's a very very length issue - the point is that it is not a hard policy issue and one that editors can take different ways, and thus should not be consider actionable in lieu of any of the other above behavioral problems. --Masem (t) 00:34, 27 February 2019 (UTC)[reply] @Drmies: there's a very big difference between trying to argue that reliable sources are not reliable (which I don't think anyone is doing) and trying to argue that reliable sources are not infallible. The latter is very much in the realm of possibilities particularly in the present day situations and the state of the media. The situation that Atsme appears to have been stuck in is that all editors around them wanted to take the reliable source at face value without question, which is not a good method of writing a neutral encyclopedia. There is not a single policy that prevents editors from asking those types of questions. Now if they keep on begging and begging the question into TE territory... that's different. --Masem (t) 06:30, 27 February 2019 (UTC)[reply] Comment by Springee I'm very much not an involved editor here. I have no idea what brought Atsme to this point. What I'm seeing is two camps. One that thinks a second chance is warranted, others who are pointing out past issues out of concern they will happen again. It sounds like a fence case. I see four possible futures here. One, consensus says no and it turns out they were right because Atsme would return to the problematic behavior. Two, consensus say yes and Atsme stays clean. Three, consensus says no but Atsme would have stayed clean. Four, consensus says yes and bad behavior resumes. The first two represent the correct decisions given future behavior. They represent the betterment of Wikipedia. The fourth is unfortunate but also reversible. The third is the problem. In the third case the decision is effectively a punishment rather than protecting the encyclopedia. What is the harm in giving the benefit of the doubt in a fence case? If the Tban is lifted and problems return are people concerned that Atsme's behavior won't be scrutinized or an admin would be more than willing to restore the ban? If lifting the ban turns out to be the wrong choice it can be reversed, edits undone. But if it's the right choice, but not the consensus decision, then the Tban is a punishment for past sins rather than a protection. Both the editor and encyclopedia suffer for it. For what it's worth, and I only know what people are saying here, I think she should be given the benefit of doubt and lift the tban. It can always be restored. Springee (talk) 00:59, 22 February 2019 (UTC)[reply] Comment by GRuban Support per everyone and their brother. She's dedicated, experienced, energetic, kind, and an all around good Joe. Summer camp, well, if everyone who's ever made an unsuccessful attempt to lighten a terrible situation with a joke were excluded, we wouldn't have any humanity left. To err is human, to forgive is … among other things, what this noticeboard is for. --GRuban (talk) 15:41, 22 February 2019 (UTC)[reply] I would also like to give proper due to some of the opposing voices, by quoting none other than the original restricting administrator, the inimitable User:Bishonen (in today's Signpost, no less!): When people insist that before blocked users can be unblocked, they must apologise, admit their mistakes, agree to learn to avoid previous pitfalls, work to address all of the issues, pave the road, seek redemption, face the music, show that they understand why exactly they were blocked and how right it was that they should be, or show remorse, it's probably not because the insister would like to see a show trial or ritual humiliation.^[1] More likely they have some psychiatric training and know how important it is to resolve conflicts and seek reconciliation, and how much better the delinquent would feel afterwards. --GRuban (talk) 21:15, 28 February 2019 (UTC)[reply] References ^ A talkpage post by User:Diannaa Comment by My very best wishes I think a successful appeal should generally include two parts: What was the problem? For example, that might be a personal bias that a lot of reliable sources are equal to the "fake news" (as Mr. President said), or as Atsme tells here, "The news we're getting now is mostly propaganda". Obviously, one can not properly use reliable sources if one believes they are propaganda. The solution? There could be different solutions. 1. Maybe the contributor realized that trashing reliable sources was wrong. 2. Maybe he/she still has a bias, but will not even mention any sources colored pink or yellow in this Table, while focusing on the sources colored green. 3. May be he/she is going to avoid editing any controversial subjects for a while. And so on, and so on. This depends on the person, but I am not sure what is that exactly, after looking at her statement. Something like "I will stay on point, present my case with civility while keeping brevity in mind" does not really address the actual problem I think. My very best wishes (talk) 16:21, 22 February 2019 (UTC)[reply] @Atsme. My apology if I misinterpreted something. In the diff you compared WorldNetDaily and NYT as equally "good" sources. My very best wishes (talk) 20:37, 22 February 2019 (UTC)[reply] Comment by Petrarchan47 I see no reason that the topic ban should not be lifted and good faith assumed. If Atsme is pulling our legs, or for some reason goes off the deep end, Wikipedians will deal with it in the moment. I see no harm in letting Atsme's future actions speak for themselves, and I see no good arguments presented to convince me otherwise. Atsme's topic ban was meant to teach a lesson, and not, one would hope, to remain indefinitely in order to silence an editor who steers articles toward NPOV in Wikipedia's arguably left-leaning atmosphere. Obviously, any bias has a profoundly detrimental effect on the reputation of the encyclopedia. DGG points to this issue: the need for editors who speak outside of the echo chamber. Indeed these editors should be embraced if NPOV is treasured as it should be. I have not worked alongside Atsme on any political articles but I wonder from the response to the border wall cartoon if she is viewed by some as not anti-Trump enough, or seen as problematic for not adhering to a 'house bias'. petrarchan47 คุ ก 23:23, 23 February 2019 (UTC)[reply] Comment by Tryptofish I've been wavering for days about whether or not I should say anything at all. But I've decided that I want to say that GoldenRing's most recent comment is correct. I think you should grant the appeal, and of course include very specific language about not backsliding and so forth. And if there is backsliding, then we will be back here swiftly, with decisive results. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:15, 25 February 2019 (UTC)[reply] Comment by Pawnkingthree Just wanted to say I agree entirely with Mastcell. Someone who regards the New York Times and the Washington Post as leftist propaganda and not reliable sources for Wikipedia purposes should not be editing in this topic area. Atme’s refusal to answer Mastcell’s straightforward question is very revealing. Pawnkingthree (talk) 11:06, 28 February 2019 (UTC)[reply] Result of the appeal by Atsme This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above. I support lifting this restriction, on the understanding that the tolerance for trouble will be very minimal. GoldenRing (talk) 08:23, 21 February 2019 (UTC)[reply] Note that in making Shrike's comment unthreaded I made a bit of a mess of the template. @PackMecEng and Masem: If you consider yourselves involved, please move your comments back into the involved section. Sorry, everyone. GoldenRing (talk) 16:10, 21 February 2019 (UTC)[reply] I consider myself involved enough to not participate in this section (beyond this message) to determine the result, but uninvolved in the larger picture. --Masem (t) 19:18, 21 February 2019 (UTC)[reply] Yes, no objection to the restriction being lifted, with the usual caveats about Atsme not backsliding into any of the previous problematic behaviour. Fish+Karate 10:10, 21 February 2019 (UTC)[reply] To add, I think the banner K.e. coffman has provided is evidence of a poor lead-balloon joke lifted here out of context, rather than 'political advocacy', and I note it is from 7 months ago, unless there's evidence of recent advocacy I'm not really concerned about that. Fish+Karate 10:32, 22 February 2019 (UTC)[reply] @Bishonen: Yes that's right. Sorry I wasn't clear - I would be concerned if there had been anything during the topic ban. As I mentioned, I'd want to see the topic ban lifted with the usual caveats about not backsliding into problematic behaviour, and political advocacy would be one of those behaviours. Fish+Karate 13:07, 22 February 2019 (UTC)[reply] I share the views expressed by GoldenRing and Fish and karate. Sandstein 11:04, 21 February 2019 (UTC)[reply] I'm a little troubled that Atsme hasn't addressed her remarks about Bishonen that I see linked above (Bishonen's statement). Atsme, do you still believe that Bishonen's actions were retaliatory and that she should be desysopped? I notice that you apologized only for using the word "hate" in your response to Floq - a word which, incidentally, you did not use - but say nothing about the other statements you made about Bishonen's motives following the block. It would be helpful if you would clarify whether you believe that the ban was justified and not retaliatory or made by an involved admin. --regentspark (comment) 19:38, 21 February 2019 (UTC)[reply] Atsme, the reason I brought that up is because your initial statement says that you recognize that your editing was less than ideal ("strayed from the collegial", for example) but it didn't specifically address your remarks about Bishonen (actually, coming to think of it, the entire statement is rather devoid of particulars). The point is fairly straightforward. If you continue to think Bishonen's actions were retaliatory and unjustified, then most of your statement is, with apologies, hogwash. Which is why it is not irrelevant. Now that I've read Awilley's comments below, I think what's troubling is that you're dealing in generalities and not pointing to anything specific about what resulted in the t-ban in the first place and not pointing to any specifics about how you're going to change going forward. --regentspark (comment) 01:47, 22 February 2019 (UTC)[reply] In the interests of moving this forward, I think we should accept this appeal. I would have liked to see a clear statement regarding her view on whether the t-ban was justified or not but I understand that's not always easy to make. Awilley and Vanamonde93 make good points below that there has been some introspection and - cue ominous music - :) "people are watching" and there's more to lose than to gain by dragging this out. --regentspark (comment) 18:18, 27 February 2019 (UTC)[reply] Leaning towards accept, but with a few thoughts and one big concern: First, I think Bishonen's topic ban effected a clear net improvement for the topic area. Going back and reading some of the material surrounding the evidence diffs reminded me how bad things were getting, and as a side note it was interesting to see how many of the disruptive editors have since been topic banned or have otherwise moved on. If the topic ban is lifted I would expect Atsme to adapt to how things have changed, and try to further elevate the discourse (which is still far from ideal), and not drag things back in time to 2018 and earlier. I think the appeal above does a really good job of dealing with the concerns of filibustering, IDHT, bludgeoning, etc. That really was a problem. In fact I wrote User:Awilley/Discretionary_sanctions#Anti-filibuster_sanction specifically with Atsme in mind, and if she hadn't already been topic banned at the time of writing I would have placed that sanction on her without any hesitation. (I think it would be a good idea for her to give it a read through and follow it anyway, since it's mostly just good talkpage etiquette.) I don't think the appeal has adequately dealt with the concern about "Repeatedly discrediting reliable sources; claiming bias and propaganda in reliable sources" which was a big part of the evidence and rationale for the topic ban. Is Atsme going to continue referring to the "MSM" as "propaganda" or claiming that sources like Breitbart are as reliable as the NYTimes? Note I'm not saying that we should unquestionably accept everything the "MSM" says, but there's a difference between having a healthy skepticism for all sources vs. yelling "Propaganda!" and "Fake News!" when news organizations write things we don't agree with. I'd appreciate a response to this @Atsme. ~Awilley (talk) 20:11, 21 February 2019 (UTC)[reply] @Atsme: ~~Your request for diffs strikes me as a bit disingenuous, and~~ the page you linked didn't resolve my concern. You're responding to the diffs in "Group 1" as if the problem were civility. (It was not.) "The diffs related to the problem I am referencing are all here under the convenient subheading "Repeatedly discrediting reliable sources; claiming bias and propaganda in reliable sources" and also the diffs in the following sentence: "Although she often complains about clickbait sources, she is apparently OK with using source like The Daily Caller [12][13], Breitbart [14], World Net Daily [15], Daily Wire, and RedState [16]" I'm really not interested in re-litigating the rationale of the topic ban and copying over and analyzing diffs that you are perfectly capable of opening and reading yourself. All I want to know is that you understand what the problem was and that you intend to fix it. ~Awilley (talk) 00:07, 22 February 2019 (UTC)[reply] I've given this some thought over the past couple of days. I believe that the best outcomes of an unban/unblock occur when an editor clearly understands the problem that led to the ban and makes a commitment not to repeat that problem. My concern here was that Atsme only did that for half the problem and didn't seem to understand the other half of the reason for her ban. My conversation with her on her talk page unfortunately did little to resolve that concern. The next best solution I suppose is to lift the ban with an explicit warning that repeating the behavior that led to the ban will result in further sanctions. Call it WP:ROPE if you wish. ~Awilley (talk) 22:02, 25 February 2019 (UTC)[reply] I think we should accept the appeal. It is essential for the proper presentation of controversial topics that all views be represented , proportionately and fairly. It cannot be assumed that in an area like AP (or any country's politics, or any similar mater of wide interest and extensive coverage,) that the sources will be divided neatly into Reliable vs. Unreliable. There is no source whatever in areas like this--even sources which try to present just a factual chronology or something that seems absolutely straightforward -- that can be assumed to be wholly reliable. They may at best be reliable for what they include, but they will always leave some things out. They may do this through deliberate judgment, or inadvertently. Similarly , there is no source so unreliable that it can not be used for what the person who writes it chooses to say about their POV. We cannot understand honest sources unless we compare hem with dishonest ones. The key here is proportionality and fair presentation. Every one of us who is interested in this topic will have a personal POV, and the only way to avoid expressing it is to consciously and deliberately and carefully write for the enemy, something that many find to be very difficult. Even if we cannot do that. we still need to consider that there may be situations where the opposing sources are correct. If I dislike a particular POV, I will be handicapped in finding positive sources about them, and need to at least not oppose those who do find them. . Historically, sources that are generally despised sometimes are the ones which find the most valuable material, The only way to get a balanced article is to be inclusive. I do not know how close Atsme's politics might be to mine, and in any case I could not talk about it here for I have no intention of disclosing my own--I do know people have made various guesses about it, all of which cannot be accurate. I personally prefer not to edit in this topic area, for the very reason that i do have strong feelings, and though I may be experienced enough to not let them consciously affect my editing, I do not want to say anything that might disclose them. I think it would be good if those who do edit in this area would at least try not to blatantly disclose them either, even in non-article space. I'm aware that some of the people who have been involved in this matter have in fact disclosed them, to a degree that I think improper. and which might have a tendency to discourage opponents. I would therefore set a very high bar indeed to a topic ban in this area. The reasoning is exactly the same why the US courts have long held that the rules on free speech and press apply particularly to political matters. These are the ones where we need to be certain to not exclude those on the basis they have too strongly expressed views that we may not individually agree with. Frankly, it does sometimes look as if WP does have a certain political slant. To some extent, this is unavoidable, and will necessarily as in all other topics reflect the people who work here. We should however try to minimize it, and I think we probably need to make an effort to keep partisan political discussion out of user and talk space, as well as articles; indulging in it gives the impression that it will affect the person's content contributions also. The only significant thing that I think Atsme has done really wrong is carrying on an argument beyond the point where it is productive. Obviously, the same charge will necessarily apply to those on the other side of the discussion. We need to fight any tendency that might look as if we deal with it differently depending on the position. In any case, I think Atsme realizes the reasons why such persistence is not appropriate here. (persistency may be a great virtue in partisan environments, but not in discussing content in WP). I'm concerned both that we need to remove this topic ban, and that we avoid making other similar bans. It is never a good idea at WP to look for reasons to discredit one's opponents. DGG ( talk ) 07:35, 22 February 2019 (UTC)[reply] @JzG :The repetition here of diffs from earlier years may show problematic behavior then, but it has little bearing on whether it would continue. At this point, I think repeating them constitutes an attempt to suppress further discussion at the proper places , and possibly even to fix the interpretation the way you would prefer it. DGG ( talk ) 02:34, 23 February 2019 (UTC)[reply] It seems to me that the questions being put to Atsme are straying into rehashing the original ban. If Atsme has turned up here arguing about those same diffs, we'd send her packing for re-litigating the ban; I don't see why we should entertain the same from other editors. Atsme has abided by the ban, shown fairly mature reflection on her own behaviour and asked that the ban be lifted; IMO we should give her another chance, but at any rate rehashing behaviour from before the ban is not helpful.— Preceding unsigned comment added by GoldenRing (talk • contribs) Lift the ban. Atsme doesn't have to demonstrate that she wholeheartedly supports the ban, as opposed to believing it was unfair, to get it lifted. Editors trying to control her thoughts abd trying to get her in line with groupthought shouldn't even be commenting here.--v/r - T P 01:16, 27 February 2019 (UTC)[reply] Straw man. Nobody is trying to control thoughts or get Atsme to say she agrees with the ban. ~Awilley (talk) 05:44, 1 March 2019 (UTC)[reply] Atsme, I seem to remember giving you some advice about your tban, but aside from that my only impressions of you are positive, so I hope you take these questions as they are meant to be taken. I think your appeal addresses quite well the issue of the temperament necessary for editing contentious topics. Nonetheless, I don't think you've addressed the entirety of the issue, and I would like to give you a chance to respond to two specific points. First, re Bishonen: I disagree that the matter is irrelevant. The purpose of any sanction on Wikipedia is to lessen disruption. If, after an admin places a sanction, the sanctioned user runs to ARBCOM claiming the administrator was involved when they were not, that is a serious concern, because it is precisely the sort of time-sink the sanction was supposed to prevent. So, we can't expect you to suddenly be Bishonen's best friend; but I, for one, would like to hear a recognition that an admin who has previously sanctioned you is not INVOLVED just because they have sanctioned you. Second: Wikipedia very much has a bias; we're biased in favor of the preponderance of reliable sources, which may be identified in specific ways. There's is legitimate room on Wikipedia for policy-based disagreement about the reliability of specific sources. There isn't room to "correct" for "bias" that you believe to exist among the whole body of reliable sources themselves (As an aside, if you think I'm targeting your POV specifically, I'm not: the "reliable sources are biased" argument is found everywhere on Wikipedia, including in nationalist disputes, GMO-disputes, climate-change disputes, etc, etc: I have had to explain this ad nauseum to very many users) My point is, in reviewing the diffs which led to the ban, I see several in which you are griping about how sources that are as mainstream RS as you can find among the news media are in fact "biased", often in places where that wasn't even particularly relevant. Regardless of your personal views about said sources, I think you need to commit to keeping discussions on topic, and adhering to the guidelines as they are written. Are you willing to do that? Vanamonde (Talk) 02:16, 27 February 2019 (UTC)[reply] Thanks, Atmse. @ The rest: I'm willing to grant an appeal at this time. I think Atsme has demonstrated more self-reflection than most people appealing a sanction, and has been here long enough to know that a successful appeal isn't a license to return to old patterns. If I'm wrong about that, well, there's enough people watching her actions, too. Vanamonde (Talk) 14:35, 27 February 2019 (UTC)[reply] @MastCell: With respect, I think your latest query goes a little too far. Atsme is quite free to consider MSNBC on par with low-grade toilet paper for reliability; that's her prerogative, as long as she's willing to work within policy when discussing article sourcing. I think she has committed to that, certainly to the extent that we can grant an appeal. She doesn't have to discuss her personal opinion of any source, and I don't think you should ask her to. Vanamonde (Talk) 03:58, 28 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

There is consensus that Atsme deserves a second chance. The topic ban is lifted with a warning that backsliding into behaviors that led to the ban will result in further sanctions. ~Awilley (talk) 05:44, 1 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action.

To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).

Appealing user: Atsme (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – ^{Atsme✍🏻📧} 20:05, 20 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Sanction being appealed: Indef topic ban from AP2 broadly construed imposed at the beginning of this ARCA request in June 2018, and the first appeal in August 2018 that I withdrew in 24 hrs.

Administrator imposing the sanction: Bishonen (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)

Notification of that administrator: Diff

Statement by Atsme

I’m here to appeal my June 2018 AP2 indef T-ban that was imposed on me by Bishonen at ARCA independently of the case that was filed, noting that I filed a 1st appeal in Aug 2018 and withdrew it within approx 24 hrs with an ArbCom restriction of 6 mos before I could appeal again. The 6 mos. restriction has expired.

Over the past few months, I throttled down my editing to focus on family and RL demands, but also managed to devote some private time to reflect on my contributions in the AP2 topic area. I will say that it isn't easy to see oneself objectively but I did try and feel that I’ve succeeded as a result of the time I spent with family and friends who mercilessly indulged me in conversations regarding one of the least favorite topics people want to discuss over the holidays...that being the topic area of this appeal. It was the best thing that could’ve happened as it taught me how to better manage the emotional triggers that topic alone has a tendency to create. It certainly led me to a better understanding of the highly contentious AP2 topic area. More importantly, I’ve learned that the best way to avoid drama in political discussions is to simply stop contributing and walk away.

In retrospect, I regret the occasions I strayed from my customary collegial behavior during RfCs and consensus required discussions in the AP2 topic area. I don’t have such issues when editing in other topic areas so I used the latter to gage my behavior in AP2. I now see the biggest problem was my overzealousness to win the debates and gain consensus, showing little consideration to opposing views. The times my position did gain consensus were overshadowed by the inappropriateness of my persistence, and for that I apologize with a promise that it will never happen again. I made a New Year's resolution that if I ever find myself participating in the AP2 topic area again I will stay on point, present my case with civility while keeping brevity in mind, will answer questions if asked and will maintain my customary polite demeaner at all times. If I happen to be notified of an RfC, I will simply cast my iVote, state why, and move on to other areas. I have also read the essays WP:WORLDSEND, WP:DGAF, and WP:LETITGO and have taken them to heart.

In closing, I will add that I never before realized how intertwined politics is in our everyday lives, or that such a broad t-ban would be so restrictive to my normal editing activities, particularly when working at AfC and NPP. I also became overly cautious and chose to deny requests for copy editing and lead improvement if I saw even a hint of a potential political undertow in the articles. I did not under any circumstances want to inadvertently violate my t-ban. It has been a heavy burden to carry, and I do hope the decision here will weigh in my favor so I can return to my normal editing activity. ^{Atsme✍🏻📧} 20:05, 20 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Floq - allegations of specific misconduct without diffs are difficult to address but I understand that going back to find evidence is tedious work, and as an admin you already have a lot on your plate. My appeal is somewhat broad in scope as I believe the crux of my behavior is what led to other behaviors. If it will help, I once copied all the diffs presented against me by MrX and addressed them at User talk:Atsme/RVW back in August in preparation of my 1st appeal. Please select the specific diffs you feel are not covered in my current appeal and I will be happy to address them individually. With regards to your questions about Bishonen, I believe the word I used was bias not hate, and if I did use hate, I apologize, it was totally out of character. With all due respect, I don't think it is appropriate for me to respond directly to that part of your question because I feel it is irrelevant to my appeal in that it has nothing to do with my ability to edit in the AP2 topic area. However, if it will help put your mind at ease, I will say that I hold no animosity toward anyone, regardless of the situation. In fact, I have defended two other editors at AE and/or ANI, SPECIFICO and BullRangifer, who have consistently been opponents in the AP2 topic area. We have maintained a collegial association as editors despite our disagreements. I have kept two diffs from other editors because their comments were unsolicited and I treasure them to this day. Hopefully they will serve to support my position as they are relevent to behavior: 10-26-2018 by an admin, and 03-14-2016 by a user I once filed against at AN/I and now hold in high regard. Sidenote: I am nopinging to avoid the appearance of canvassing. ^{Atsme✍🏻📧} 16:03, 21 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Floq - this appeal is about my promise to not partake in TE, broadly construed. This is not about Bishonen - she was simply the enforcing admin. If you have an issue with anything I've said related to her, please take it to AN. It does not belong here. This venue is AE regarding editing behavior where DS have been imposed. Thank you. ^{Atsme✍🏻📧} 23:45, 21 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

AWilley - please read my response to Floq. Provide the diffs that have raised your concern, otherwise I cannot provide an appropriate answer without knowing exactly to what you are referring. I need specifics, please. The allegations against me are compiled in the link I provided to Floq above - you can pick the ones you feel I need to address. Without diffs to support a specific allegation, we are treading awfully close to aspersions. The diffs used as evidence against me in my June t-ban are there for the choosing, and my explanations are there as well. I don't recall ever being the editor you described below. While my editing was tendentious, I have never been one to spew nonsense, and will never be that person, unless ^[FBDB] is indicated. I will admit that on a few occasions my humor was sarcastic but we all indulged from time to time. Since my t-ban was imposed, the following discussions have emerged: here and here, so it isn't an issue that is unique to my concerns. Read Masem's statement again as it describes the primary issue well. As for the comments about AP2 becoming a quieter topic area, doesn't that customarily hold true when most of the opposition is eliminated and the bulk of the editing is done by like-minded individuals? Have you considered that since your attempt to impose Special DS on SPECIFICO, he/she has not edited in that topic area since? Others have been on and off. Please don't forget that there have been a substantial number of editors t-banned since June 2018, not just me. ~~Bishonen acknowledged that in her statement.~~ ^{Clarified here 14:38, 27 February 2019 (UTC)} Was it really necessary for you to make such a claim without providing factual information with the numbers to support it? ^{Atsme✍🏻📧} 21:39, 21 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

It was very disheartening to read your response. In your 1st diff, the source is not black listed and can be used with caution, but I took it one step further by adding NYTimes as a source for verification per the diff you provided. Did you not read the diff? There was no error on my part. The 2nd & 3rd diffs you included below - Breitbart which was cherrypicked from an WP:RSN discussion, not from an AP2 article rather it was about something Ben Shapiro had said. The #2 diff was also at RSN. If you had read my comment you would have seen "Editors have to exercise a bit more caution than before when it comes to verifying any publication that's considered a "news source". Bait-click headlines and fallacious content are rampant, and none of them are immune." The Daily Wire and Red State diffs you included were in a question I asked on the Sean Hannity TP regarding edits by an IP - "Can we use Daily Wire which explains the crux of what IP207 is saying?", so again, my references to those sources were taken out of context. Nothing I've said in my appeal has been disengenuous. What you provided as evidence to discredit me regarding sources substantiated nothing that belongs in this appeal, and none of it can be related to disruptive editing which further explains why I did not include it. You have your opinion, AWilley, and there is nothing I can do to change that if you're not going to actually read the diffs in context, but as an admin, you are obligated to at least present the facts correctly. I cannot fix problems that don't exist and if I'm to be blamed for doing things I didn't do, you shouldn't be disappointed if I refuse to apologize for it. I identified the problem that existed regarding my t-ban and Masem's statement helped to validate it. It appears that whether or not I respond to each allegation made by involved editors/admins or choose to ignore them, I will be condemned either way as what Floq just demonstrated - damned if I do - damned if I don't. At least I've corrected the misinformation and properly stated facts, so if I'm to be punished for that, then so be it. I've done the best I can do. ^{Atsme✍🏻📧} 01:13, 22 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

regentspark - I feel that your question relating to Bishonen is irrelevant to my appeal in that it has nothing to do with my ability to edit in the AP2 topic area. Why are you even bringing it up? This is now beginning to appear to be punitive considering this is my first t-ban ever, since I've been an editor, and it was an indef t-ban whereas other editors who have done far worse were given shorter time limits. There is no need for me to vindicate Bishonen's actions. This is a t-ban appeal at AE, not a request for desysopping at AN so why is it even being discussed? No, I have no intention of filing for a desysop of Bishonen. My statement in my appeal is thorough and to the point. Your questions go beyond what is expected in an appeal. I've made my statement and acknowledged the areas where I need to improve - if you have reason to believe there are other areas that I need to improve, then provide the diffs please. I actually went back and studied the diffs that were used against me, and asked Newyorkbrad for the specifics. His response was quite vague - not one diff was mentioned. Editors who make allegations about another editor are expected to provide diffs to support their allegations. With all due respect, I ask for the same consideration. Provide the diffs so that I may respond with an intelligent, well-thought out answer to your questions. ^{Atsme✍🏻📧} 21:39, 21 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

regentspark - I hope it doesn't create an issue, but I just bolded a portion of my text above to emphasize the crux of my appeal. In totality, that is the part that really matters. The focus here is supposed to be a remedy for disruptive behavior, and to deny my appeal based only on speculation and dismissing what I've vowed to do is not fair to me or the project. If you haven't actually studied the diffs in context that were used against me, and I copied to User talk:Atsme/RVW, please take the time to do so because they are what my t-ban was based on - and this appeal is about that t-ban. If you find anything in those diffs that I have not addressed, please advise so we can discuss it. I am a person of principal and I honor my commitments. You can take my words at face value. I am not hiding behind anonymity - what you see is what you get - my real id is on the line here, and I was hoping that my years as an editor have been far more productive than disruptive, so please don't judge me based on this one t-ban. In fact, it would be wonderful if every editor who participated in the AP2 topic area would make a behavior vow similar to mine. AE would look like a ghost town. ^{Atsme✍🏻📧} 03:29, 22 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

MastCell - please provide the diffs you are referencing so that I may address your concerns. ^{Atsme✍🏻📧} 22:28, 21 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

MastCell - I have asked you to provide diffs so that I can respond to your specific concerns but you have not. I provided a link to my explanations of the diffs that were used to support the allegations against me in my original t-ban but I'll do it again specifically for you, only this time I've added a hashtag to the relevant diffs: User_talk:Atsme/RVW#Explanation_for_above_allegations_presented_in_context_below. Harvard University conducted a study last year that is available for all to download for free here. It's an interesting study. What Harvard published is an academic study, MastCell, not a news source. You are accusing me of wikilawyering when all I'm trying to do is state the facts. Show me the diffs that make you believe I'm on a "misconceived crusade against reliable media sources". Are you talking about discussions years ago at RS/N or NPOV/N, or are you talking about discussions on article TPs, wherein I've exercised caution as it applies to NOTNEWS, RECENTISM and other related PAGs, especially when unidentified informants were used as sources? Please, point me to the diffs that have given you pause, and have led you to say the hurtful things you've said about me, and with what appears to be anger and unyielding distrust. I've never seen this side of you, and I'm truly hurt by the things you've said. Show me the specific diffs that support the following comments you made about me, and I promise you that I will study them, yet again, and will try my best to ease your mind: "The major concern was that Atsme consistently undermined or obstructed reliable sources, dismissed high-quality journalistic sources as "propaganda", and mischaracterized fact as opinion, all in service of an apparent ideological agenda.", and "Atsme's misconceived crusade against reliable media sources, and ...despite Atsme's unwillingness to substantively engage with the issues that led to the original ban. ^{Atsme✍🏻📧} 22:53, 26 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

MastCell, you have to read the diffs in the context they were intended, and to do that you have to read the full discussion. Surely you don't expect me to explain their context here, do you? If you're going to repeat AWilley's questions, then you should have included my response to him as well. What I can say unequivocally to you now is that, to my knowledge, I have always adhered to our PAGs. I believe WP:NOTNEWS is very clear in that Wikipedia is not a newspaper. The policy also states: However, not all verifiable events are suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia and it cautions us about original reporting and that we should not offer first-hand news reports on breaking stories. Wikipedia does not constitute a primary source. It also states, While including information on recent developments is sometimes appropriate, breaking news should not be emphasized or otherwise treated differently from other information. Timely news subjects not suitable for Wikipedia may be suitable for our sister project Wikinews. And then there is WP:RECENTISM - Allegations of recentism should prompt consideration of proportion, balance, and due weight. Material may need to be moved, deleted, or added to. Certain articles might be merged or placed on Wikipedia:Articles for deletion; conversely, articles may need to be split into new articles for balance. Sometimes in-depth information on current events is more appropriately added to Wikinews, which can be reached here. And finally, WP:NEWSORG which states News reporting from well-established news outlets is generally considered to be reliable for statements of fact (though even the most reputable reporting sometimes contains errors). In reviewing the diffs you provided, I see where I could have been more selective in my choice of words, and I should not have strayed off-point to indulge in unnecessary debate. I will continue to adhere to our PAGs as I always have, and if I ever find myself editing in the AP2 topic area again, I will behave in the manner I described in my appeal. ^{Atsme✍🏻📧} 02:12, 27 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

In the diff you referenced, you have to read the discussion for proper context. The article is about Trump's racial views, and the section of the discussion is "Shithole countries". I was trying to demonstrate to my Wikifriend MPants at work that we have residents along the Texas border who don't consider a border wall as racially motivated, rather they see it as preventing crime, drug trafficking, etc. What I've read in left leaning mainstream sources is the exact opposite, and some appear to be politically driven regarding this issue. Of course, each case is different and why it is our job to evaluate the sources, read the articles and include material in compliance with NPOV. In that discussion I linked to a couple of local and regional sources, including this article, which reported the killing of an innocent angler who got too close to the drug camps, and this one about the increase in migrants from "countries as distant as Bangladesh and Pakistan". I also included a link to the cartel crime stats in Texas. I'm comfortable with what I demonstrated to MPants, and believe it was worthy of consideration. That's what we're supposed to do on article talk pages. ^{Atsme✍🏻📧} 04:14, 28 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

MastCell I answered your question above but forgot to ping you. This will be my final comment, and I hope it puts your concerns to rest. In an effort to present the diffs in proper context, please keep the date of the diffs in mind and that the discussion was about the inclusion of specific material in Donald Trump or Racial views of Donald Trump where BLP policy takes precedence. The basis of the discussion was racism and I believe we all know there are two sides to that argument which has already been addressed below by DGG, Masem, Vanamonde, and others. I do give credence to RS such as WaPo and NYTimes, and there are plenty of instances that support what I'm saying now. However, as GoldenRing said below, if I had turned up here "arguing about those same diffs, we'd send her packing for re-litigating the ban." I look at the proposed material to be added/restored/deleted, specifically the article(s) cited, and then I research to corroborate the material as published by other RS; i.e. writing for the opposition. As a result, I've been painted as the opposition in a derogatory manner. I am very cautious of clickbait headlines, and I do strictly adhere to NEWSORG and RECENTISM. I wish more editors would do the same. I often look to the NYTimes and WaPo to corroborate other sources, and vice versa. They are the staples of mainstream media, but they are not infallible. Journalists for both publications tend to lean left. FOX News is criticized as being far right, yet Marc Thiessen with the Washington Post is a Fox News contributor. If we don't read different views, we cannot possibly achieve proper WEIGHT and BALANCE, and we'd be doing the project a disservice. Consensus typically finds the middle ground but we should not silence opposing views, or censor them by ommission. Another aspect for consideration when isolating diffs as evidence - the diffs used were from last year which further demonstrates the blow back of RECENTISM. We have since learned more about that particular issue; however, at the time of the diffs, we did not have all the information, and there were other RS with opposing views that I attempted to impress upon for inclusion to satisfy NPOV (my choice of words back then were not the best). I am not the editor you have characterized based on a few diffs taken out of context. ^{Atsme✍🏻📧} 15:13, 28 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Drmies - of course there is a human crisis at the southern border, and something needs to be done about it but AE is not the place to discuss it, and certainly not now. Instead of automatically believing the worst of me, you should have noticed that picture was posted a year ago on my TP and it is no longer there. The story behind it was actually a true situation when a friend's kids were watching TV and saw all the kids playing in one of the camps, and they actually thought it was a summer camp where they could go. Real life moment. Secondly, it has no relevance to this appeal except as an attempt to unfairly smear me, and it should be removed. ^{Atsme✍🏻📧} 05:49, 22 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Bishonen - I was actually referring to the section here for involved editors.^{Atsme✍🏻📧} 14:28, 22 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Bish, my apologies for the confusion. Regarding the disruption comment, I was actually referring to your statement in the original case wherein you said, "I should say that Am Pol is no rosegarden even if we disregard Atsme's input, and probably won't be one even if my ban is upheld. Several people have recommended an AP3 case to deal with the chaos on Trump-related pages. This diff. Probably not the best example but it made sense at the time. With regard to the other issue, my reference was to the section title below where "Involved editors" are supposed to comment - involved in the regard MastCell mentioned and where other editors have participated in AP2, I suppose. Perhaps I was confused over what you said. Anyway, work awaits, and I think it's time for me to get busy responding to CE requests. Enjoy the day! ^{Atsme✍🏻📧} 17:59, 22 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Just wanted to respond to MVBW's use of this link which appears to have raised some doubt. It actually turns out to be an excellent example of what I have already identified as the problem I vowed to not repeat. In that diff, I was overzealous, wandered off point, and clearly lacked brevity - please read my close in that diff which is actually the point I was trying to make - Use inline text attribution, follow the RS guideline for material that may be challenged, avoid policy noncompliance and apply BRD to rid an article of biased garbage and fallacious claims. Unfortunately, my close was completely lost primarily because of what I have properly described in my appeal as the crux of my problem. I reiterate...overzealousness, lack of brevity, wandering off point - and that's what led to the issues that were raised. Had I simply stated what I stated in the close instead of all the rambling that preceded it, my comment would not have been an issue...except for some of the ending terminology which I will not use in that manner in the future. ^{Atsme✍🏻📧} 18:20, 22 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Vanamonde93, thank you for expressing your concerns. I fondly remember our past discussions and your willingness to help. In response to your concerns regarding admin actions, please rest assured that I have read WP:INVOLVED more than once, and understand it well. Regarding your second concern, ...to commit to keeping discussions on topic, and adhering to the guidelines as they are written, I believe the bolded portion of my appeal addresses "on topic", but I used the words "on point" - please consider it to mean the same thing. Regarding the remainder of your concern...my unyielding adherence to guidelines is part of what got me here - and there is also IAR to consider - but I think I understand the gist of your concern. Please rest assured, I have found the middle button, and know when to leave well-enough alone. My interpretation of our PAGs have served me well over the years in the topic areas I've been involved, including as a reviewer at NPP & AfC, as an OTRS agent, at AfD, in GA & FA reviews, and as an occasional contributor in discussions necessitating PAG modifications for improved clarity and less ambiguity. I hope my response will put your mind at ease. ^{Atsme✍🏻📧} 14:31, 27 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Bishonen

I don't think I'll comment here, unless someone should have an urgent question for me. But it might be useful to have a link to my topic ban rationale. Here it is. Bishonen | talk 21:06, 20 February 2019 (UTC).[reply]

It turns out I've nevertheless got a few questions now:

@Atsme: You say "Please don't forget that there have been a substantial number of editors t-banned since June 2018, not just me. Bishonen acknowledged that in her statement." I'm not quite following that. I acknowledged what, where?
@Atsme: I notice that now you meet some resistance, the allegations of "involved administrators" appear again: "It appears that whether or not I respond to each allegation made by involved editors/admins or choose to ignore them, I will be condemned either way". Not sure who you're referring to as involved — is it Awilley? Awilley and some others? Bishonen | talk 12:47, 22 February 2019 (UTC).[reply]
@Fish and karate: You point out that Atsme's banner about the Trump summer camps is seven months old, and "unless there's evidence of recent advocacy [you're] not really concerned about that". How could there be more recent advocacy, when she has been topic banned from American politics for the last seven months? And has properly abided by the ban. Anything Am Pol-related from Atsme is going to be at least seven months. Bishonen | talk 12:47, 22 February 2019 (UTC).[reply]

@Atsme: I was hoping this needn't turn into a whole discussion, but I'm more confused now than before you posted your reply. Does it refer to both my questions, or is there more coming? Where is there a section for involved editors? Where in my statement (presumably not my brief statement above, so what statement?) did I acknowledge "that there have been a substantial number of editors t-banned since June 2018, not just [you]"? Bishonen | talk 16:47, 22 February 2019 (UTC).[reply]

Statement by Mr Ernie

I would support a lifting of the restriction. This is a very introspective appeal. Atsme is intelligent and articulate, which are characteristics of editors we need on the project. I believe them when they say they've taken those instructive essays to heart. Mr Ernie (talk) 20:57, 20 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

There’s a risk that this could now go on and on with editors coming in with specific questions about what would you do in this case, what do you think about this, what do you think about that. I would encourage us to AGF and believe Atsme when they say they will approach this topic with better behavior. Most admins below seem to support lifting the topic ban, so how long do we need to go round and round here? Mr Ernie (talk) 18:56, 22 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by MrX

Any administrators considering whether to lift this topic ban should evaluate whether Atsme's appeal addresses the full extent of the conduct that resulted in the topic ban. As the editor who brought the original complaint, I can say that it had nothing to do with civility. Brevity and staying on point are necessary, but so is refraining from the other behaviors that lead to the ban: whataboutism, discrediting reliable sources, claiming bias and propaganda in reliable sources, filibustering, sidetracking discussions, POV fighting, rehashing comments, refusing to get the point, distorting policies, and wikilawyering.

After Atsme was topic banned, the quality of discussion on several American politics talk pages improved markedly. If the topic ban is lifted, it should come with a firm provision that any recidivism will result in a resumption of the topic ban. - Mr X 🖋 02:30, 21 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@PackMecEng: I stand by my assertion that the discussions on the Trump talk pages improved in brevity, adherence to the topic, and quality. What's interesting is that if you think they have been the same or worse, why you have not raised your concerns at AE. It's not like you haven't been here before.- Mr X 🖋 15:32, 21 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

It might be helpful to know if Atsme still believes that "the media" is biased and proven to be 90% negative against Donald Trump, or if separating immigrant children from their parents is Barack Obama's fault.[1] Does she still believe that news sources "spin the truth"?[2]. Has her opinion changed that The Washington Post is "highly misleading and inaccurate" when they say "It has become standard operating procedure for Trump and his aides to deceive the public with false statements and shifting accounts."? Does she still believe that CNN, WaPo, NYTimes report disinformation?[3] Does she still think that her close friends on the border are better sources than Leftist mainstream media?[4] - Mr X 🖋 22:57, 21 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by MONGO

Atsme is kind, is polite, is passionate about her editing, truly cares and wants to help keep articles balanced in their wording. While Atsme claims that she has had RL issues and what not to attend to since, I feel that the ban took the wind out of her sails for most anything on the site. I therefore support seeing the ban lifted but offer advice should this happen. That advice to Atsme is to not waste your precious hours arguing with editors that loiter on these political articles. While its fine to cast a "vote" and to offer a very concise explanation, the inevitable hectoring from those that disagree with you should be met with no response, no response at all. Brevity is the soul of wit. You will not change their minds, as their minds are made up. Avoid those drama-laden articles where no good happens, no one smiles, no one is happy, where people waste thousands of edits and yet the article is no where near to achieving even a "Good" rating because the article is merely a collection of twisted sound bites, told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing. Yes, lift the ban so we can put this behind us and Atsme won't be carrying this on her otherwise quite excellent wiki-resume any longer.--MONGO (talk) 04:24, 21 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Simply adding that Atsme is going to be watched quite obviously. The chance she is going to make an irreversible error is next to zero and if she does err in a manner unpleasing to those here that object to her unbanning, it will surely be quite easy to ban her again, and that will likely be irreversible...at least in the near term.--MONGO (talk) 01:08, 22 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Winged Blades of Godric

The appeal looks sincere and impresses upon me that she has understood the problems of her erstwhile conduct in the area. Support a grant. ∯WBG^converse 11:04, 21 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Floq

@Atsme:, do you still believe the topic ban was placed unfairly, as retaliation by an involved admin who did so because she hates you? That it should have resulted in Bishonen's desysop? You said that - several times - on your talk page when it was first imposed, and while I haven't gone digging for diffs (I can if you believe I'm being inaccurate), I recall you saying similar things a whole bunch of times after that. Has that perspective changed as well? I'd also value your opinion on MrX's comment above. Do you think the only problem with your behavior was that you weren't being nice and were too longwinded?

I'm a friend of Bish's, so I'll consider myself involved, but these are the kind of things I think uninvolved admins should be asking. --Floquenbeam (talk) 13:37, 21 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Atsme: Why are you asking for diffs about things that you 100% know you said? Two of which you linked to yourself above? Here are 3 obvious, easy ones:

Atsme's statement in response to MrX's ARCA filing: [5]
Atsme's comments on her own talk page after the t-ban imposition: [6]
Atsme's statement in her appeal in August: [7]

Do a ctrl-f for "Bishonen" in each section and at least a half dozen examples of accusing her of malfeasance will show up in each one. --Floquenbeam (talk) 22:52, 21 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Last reply: I am not trying to get you further sanctioned for the baseless accusations you made about Bishonen 6 months ago. I'm trying to evaluate whether you still have the same battleground mentality and proclivity for gamesmanship in an argument that caused the topic ban to be imposed in the first place. I think you've answered that question, so I'll go find something else to do now. --Floquenbeam (talk) 23:56, 21 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by MastCell

I'm concerned that this appeal shows no indication that Atsme understands the rationale behind the topic ban. She states that she has learned the importance of being brief and remaining civil. True, there was an element of bludgeoning in her previous participation in the topic area, and her commitment to avoid that behavior going forward is welcome. But the topic ban was not placed because Atsme was uncivil, or overly prolix. (If anything, commentary in the initial topic ban discussion generally praised her civility). The major concern was that Atsme consistently undermined or obstructed reliable sources, dismissed high-quality journalistic sources as "propaganda", and mischaracterized fact as opinion, all in service of an apparent ideological agenda. Those behaviors were rightly identified as toxic to our efforts to cover political topics accurately and neutrally. I would absolutely oppose lifting this topic ban unless and until Atsme grapples with the actual reasons that it was placed. And that's a practical consideration, not a personal one: if she doesn't understand why the topic ban was placed, then she will certainly run into the same trouble again. We currently have a major problem on American-politics articles with editors who inappropriately dismiss, stonewall, or undermine reliable sources on partisan grounds, and who enable and amplify each other in doing so. Adding Atsme back to the topic area is a mistake unless it's clear that this behavior isn't going to be repeated.

Separately, Atsme's reaction to the topic ban was highly, and somewhat indiscriminately, belligerent. She attacked various editors and admins as biased, disruptive, and so on, often without any substantive evidence. I understand that, to some extent, this was a fight-or-flight reaction in the heat of the moment. But if that's the case, then I think it's reasonable to ask for some introspection on Atsme's part. How does she view her reaction to the topic ban now, at a distance? Does she continue to believe that it was motivated by bias and personal malice? Does she feel an apology is owed to any, some, or all of the people whom she attacked?

I'm placing myself in this section, rather than the uninvolved-admin section, because I've interacted with Atsme quite a bit. We've often disagreed; we've sometimes agreed; we've generally been friendly. But, like Floquenbeam, these are the kinds of questions I would expect uninvolved admins to ask, as part of their basic due diligence, before entertaining removal of this topic ban (thank you, RegentsPark and Awilley). MastCell ^Talk 21:32, 21 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Atsme: Like Floquenbeam, I think it's silly (if not dishonest) to demand diffs when we both know exactly what I'm talking about. And I see that after Awilley went to the trouble of fetching the shrubbery you demanded, and provided an exhaustive list of diffs, you responded: "I'm not going to go over each one of your cherrypicked diffs". To me, this looks like straight-up wikilawyering on your part, to avoid taking responsibility for your statements and actions. I'm absolutely opposed to lifting the topic ban at this point, because I think Atsme's responses provide no reason to believe that anything will be different if the ban is lifted. MastCell ^Talk 22:23, 22 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I continue to feel that Atsme has not understood the reasons for her topic ban, and that she will therefore inevitably return to the same behaviors. (After all, how can one change a behavior if one doesn't realize that it was problematic in the first place?) Worse, some commenters have actually enabled Atsme's misconceived crusade against reliable media sources. I'm also concerned by the blithe assurances that Atsme will simply be re-banned if she strays again—that burden is going to borne by the people commenting up here, which is why we're so insistent on figuring out whether she's actually learned anything. Since this ban appeal looks likely to succeed, I will expect the admins who voted in favor of it (despite Atsme's unwillingness to substantively engage with the issues that led to the original ban) to be personally available and willing to act if the problematic behaviors resume. MastCell ^Talk 20:51, 26 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Atsme, I've already addressed your request for diffs, but will do so again. Let's start with the list of diffs supplied by Awilley here. Those diffs are a reasonable representation of what concerns me. Specifically:

"if you don't live along a southern border in the US, or within 100 miles of it, you can't possibly know what really goes on. If you think leftist MSM is going to tell you, think again... MSM has done a great job with their open border propaganda and keeping the American people uninformed via ommission." This is an outright rejection of this site's sourcing guidelines and policies, and an assault on reliable sources as the foundation of our content, with the suggestion that we should replace reliably-sourced content with testimonials from people living within an arbitrary radius of the southern border.
You again attack reliable sources, on political grounds: "enforcement of those laws has obviously become politicized and sensationalized by clickbait media, most of which are proven to be 90% negative toward Trump. Ironically, some of the very same media who attempted to circulate images of children in fenced cages, blamed Trump when the images were actually from the Obama administration... enough already with the back and forth here, all of which is based on biased media reporting to appeal to human compassion (more like propaganda), none of which to date is supported by factual evidence... the biased media wants to blame Trump for everything, including the mistakes of prior admins. Oh, and ask yourselves honestly if we allow such material in the Trump BLP, are we going to include the related information in the Bush & Obama administrations, considering they should be considered equally at fault?" (You promote the falsehood that Trump's family-separation policy is substantially the same as Obama's. While promoting politically-motivated falsehoods on talkpages is not necessarily sanctionable, neither is it desirable behavior.)
Another attack on reliable sources: "No, (the sources) are not clear, they are spinning the truth, playing on human emotion and are not properly presenting the actual facts, which includes purposeful child endangerment by the parents who are being arrested for not entering legally via ports of entry and by adults who are trafficking children, etc."
More attacks on reliable sources: "Surely you have the needed editorial discretion to make a sound judgment call between what biased clickbait media portrays and what Trump's actions and actual FACTS tell us. Show me one instance in the Trump presidency that supports white supremacy other than the spin by biased media, and I will be expeditiously change my position about the topic... I'm not ok with the media creating their own facts after the questions have been answered."

(I've borrowed these from Awilley; you declined to address them when he presented them to you.) These are a small sample, but they illustrate my major concern: you have attacked, undermined, and rejected reliable sources because they conflict with your personal political viewpoints. That was a central reason for the topic ban. Has that changed? How do you view these diffs now—do you continue to endorse them? Will you commit to accepting news reporting from reputable journalistic outlets, like the New York Times or Washington Post, as reliable sources—even if you personally disagree with their content? Will you, at a minimum, stop actively attacking and sabotaging these reliable sources on Wikipedia? Will you refrain from using talk pages to promote politically motivated falsehoods? MastCell ^Talk 23:22, 26 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Atsme, your response is, well, non-responsive. I don't need a lecture about WP:RECENTISM and WP:NOTNEWS. You were not invoking those policies in the diffs I presented. You were arguing that reliable sources are biased against Donald Trump and should be deprecated. Here you explicitly state that reliable sources cannot be trusted because they are inherently "leftist", and dedicated to spreading deliberate misinformation and "open border propaganda". That has absolutely nothing to do with RECENTISM or NOTNEWS—it is a straight-up rejection of this site's basic sourcing policies. Can you explain, without cut-and-pasting large swathes of irrelevant policy, whether you continue to hold the sentiments expressed in that diff? MastCell ^Talk 02:16, 28 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Vanamonde, I think we're on the same page. The issue is not Atsme's personal beliefs per se, but rather her insistence on blocking the use of reliable sources on the basis of those beliefs. Atsme is free to regard the New York Times and the Washington Post as "leftist open border propaganda". I just want her to commit to stop using those opinions to stonewall the use of reliable sources on Wikipedia. (As an analogy, we've had plenty of editors who reject the scientific literature, but we generally don't allow them to write our articles on vaccination). It's pretty clear to me that a) Atsme has done this and b) that she doesn't have any insight into this issue at all. But if no one else is seeing that, then hey. MastCell ^Talk 04:39, 28 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Softlavender

In her responses to administrators here, Atsme is going right back into the WP:BATTLEGROUND behavior and self-justification that got her the indef topic ban. Sample: "it was an indef t-ban whereas other editors who have done far worse were given shorter time limits." Sample: bringing up Newyorkbrad who wisely ignored her belligerent baiting demands on his talkpage back then: "I actually went back and studied the diffs that were used against me, and asked Newyorkbrad for the specifics. His response was quite vague - not one diff was mentioned." Etc. All this says to me that Atsme has not been rehabilitated, does not understand her own behavioral problems, and will likely continue with battleground attacks and self-justifying recriminations if the topic ban is lifted at this time. I will also note that over the course of her TBan she complained fairly noticeably about the TBan, usually symbolically, indirectly, or covertly, but clearly, including to kindred spirits like Winkelvi, including posting images of a person with their mouth gagged, and so on. I recommend retaining the TBan. Possibly an appeal in another six months will be less belligerent and more self-responsible. Softlavender (talk) 00:33, 22 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by K.e.coffman

I've been involved in the general topic area, but not in the specific disputes with Atsme. I'm concerned about potentially continued advocacy that may be contrary to the goals of the project, such as inclusivity and tolerance. For example, Atsme's Talk page displayed the following in July of 2018:

I asked the kids where they want to go for summer vacation.
They yelled, Kid's summer camp!!
I asked where?
They said, Trump's immigration camp on the border, where all the other kids get to go.

Source: permalink. If the appeal is granted, I would like to request Atsme to please refrain from broadcasting intolerant messages in userspace.

I'm also concerned about the lack of acknowledgement of past battleground behaviour, as specifically was evident in the first appeal. At the time, I described it as "borderline harassment of the editor who submitted the original request": Wikipedia talk:Arbitration/Requests/Case/American politics_2#Statement by K.e.coffman. I see this as more than "stray[ing] from my customary collegial behavior". Perhaps, a one-way interaction ban should be considered in case the appeal is successful. K.e.coffman (talk) 01:36, 22 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

In re: this response [8] to my statement, the "real life moment" was posted without context and the sentiment it seems to express was echoed in an unrelated user Talk page discussion about the Trump administration family separation policy:

"the whole affair has been sensationalized by media - great clickbait - our local news has assured us that the kids are fine, and living under the best of conditions. Our American children who are homeless wish they had it so good. The hook audio of babies crying is done with a purpose, specifically to persuade the midterms..." [9].

I noticed Atsme's response because I started the thread: permalink, and then took a look at Atsme's Talk page and found more of the same. I believe that such comments are relevant to the appeal, as Atsme asserted that reliable sources were "clickbait" and ascribed nefarious motives to the journalists covering the family separation policy, apart from my concerns about the nature of the Talk page banner. Such comments are toxic in the AP area, and I was asking Atsme to avoid them in the future should she return to editing these topic. --K.e.coffman (talk) 22:15, 22 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Ading ping @Fish and karate: as you have commented on my statement. --K.e.coffman (talk) 22:23, 22 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Drmies

Whoa, that kid's summer camp was new to me. Atsme, I do not understand how you ever thought that was funny. Those kids, separated from their families, many of them fleeing abuse only to land in more abuse, deserve much better than that. Drmies (talk) 04:46, 22 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Masem, I am puzzled by your comment on reliable sources. You say it's become common to "blindly use sources in a slavish manner without question, while there are others (which I'd include myself in and consider Atsme in as well) that feel that it wholly appropriate to consider the state of the state before blindly using sources". The "blindly" thing is a complete straw man, as if the regular editors don't have editorial judgment; and Atsme, well, I am not aware that I've seen her reasonably and comprehensive question reliable sources. I have seen doubt being cast more generally on "the mainstream media", as if there isn't any reliability at all anymore. I sure hope that, if this topic ban is lifted, we will see less of that cynicism. Seriously, "blindly using sources"--I am going to sign off before I will really start to doubt your judgment. Drmies (talk) 03:06, 27 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Objective3000

I’m generally in favor of second chances, and I really like to see contrite appeals acknowledging past error and plans to avoid those errs in future. Atsme’s appeal was, indeed, contrite and promised avoidance of further problems. It was very well presented. Unfortunately, I believe it was off topic. Atsme was not banned for incivility. MrX gives a brief rundown of the many problems with her past behavior related to AP2 articles. I agree with all of MrX’s observations and haven’t seen any indication that they won’t be repeated. I would feel far more comfortable with an acknowledgement of these problems. And, I fear anyone with such a dim view of sources like WaPo and NYT, while accepting Breitbart, will continue to experience difficulties in AP2. Having said all that, Atsme is a solid contributor in non-AP2 areas. It would be an unfortunate outcome should reinsertion in the AP2 arena degrade her contributions to other areas of the project. O3000 (talk) 15:01, 22 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by JzG

Atsme is a lovely person, but I have encountered exactly the same behaviour since I first encountered her over her edits to G. Edward Griffin (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) in 2015, and also in other cases related to her hot-button issues. The tban here is entirely defensible, and any lifting would basically require a voluntary restriction almost as broad, I'm afraid. I think this is just how Atsme is. The good news is that everywhere else, I find she is an absolute delight, endlessly helpful and polite. Guy (Help!) 18:33, 22 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@DGG: I understand your point, but Atsme has not simply advanced a political POV, she has rejected reliable sources on the basis that they conflict with her ideology. That is a specific and very real problem. The right wing media bubble is now almost completely disconnected from the continuum of mainstream media. Fox used to cite the WSJ and even WaPo, but this declined sharply after Fox lost viewers over ideological purity, with Breitbart taking up the slack. Fox has regained mindshare in the right only since it stopped referencing mainstream sources in its main segments. These days the word "mainstream" is used by the political right as a synonym for "liberal". That is profoundly dangerous. It casts propaganda and journalism as equivalents. The mainstream media includes the Wall Street Journal, remember, which has an editorial policy that is fiscally and socially conservative and rejects climate change on ideological grounds. I find Atsme's rejection of sources simply because they are mainstream to be profoundly disturbing. It is antithetical to WP:V, WP:RS and WP:NPOV - and it was in evidence over the dispute in 2015 around G. Edward Griffin (a member of the John Birch Society), with a distinct conspiracist tinge. Guy (Help!) 22:40, 22 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by JFG

Atsme is one of the most level-headed editors I have ever encountered in the DS/AP area. Sure, she tends to be rather argumentative when discussing contentious issues, but isn't that what talk pages are for? I'd much rather deal with the occasional talk page bludgeoning than with a sneaky WP:NINJA editor or a holier-than-thou WP:POVFIGHTER. Atsme has personal bias, as we all do, but she doesn't let her personal opinions get in the way of the overall goal of the encyclopedia. I believe the enforced break may have improved her sense of understanding when she should drop the stick, or in her own words WP:LETITGO. She also has a thick-enough skin to withstand whatever criticism of her actions may further arise. Last but not least, I am looking forward to enjoying her sense of humour again. Support ~~unblock~~ lifting TBAN. — JFG ^talk 09:32, 23 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Darouet

I support the lifting of these sanctions. Atsme is not merely a kind editor, something that most have acknowledged here. She is also a superb editor and an example to other editors all across the project: sharp, dedicated, and involved in content creation. Atsme has a very strong record of improving site content. And Atsme appears kind because her tone reflects her generally thoughtful attitude to her editing.

Atsme's kindness and corresponding thoughtfulness have not always been reciprocated either by editors or admins at US politics pages, as she has demonstrated. Atsme's concerns in this regard were evidently not considered seriously since she was topic banned just minutes after posting diffs to defend herself.

I strongly agree with more or less every aspect of DGG's statement on this case, highlighting that "it is essential for the proper presentation of controversial topics that all views be represented, proportionately and fairly," and "US courts have long held that the rules on free speech and press apply particularly to political matters." This is wholly consistent with Atsme's original appeal: "I didn't think civil disagreement while seeking consensus would be grounds for a sanction." -Darouet (talk) 18:29, 24 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by Atsme

Comment by Shrike

I think Atsme learned from her mistakes and I support the appeal --Shrike (talk) 13:55, 21 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by PackMecEng

For what it is worth it certainly seems she has learned her lesson. I think her contributions elsewhere speak for themselves on that issue. Her response here also clearly shows she has seen the issues with past behavior and has learned form them. I must disagree with MrX's point above though, at best discussions on those pages are the same or worse. To say since the removal of Atsme the pages have "improved markedly" is rather perplexing and an unnecessary comment. I also think that many people will have an eye on her in that subject area and be quick to report any infractions should issues arise. In the end Astme is a productive and valuable editor and it would be a shame if she could not help improve all topics. PackMecEng (talk) 15:07, 21 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@MrX: I tend not to complain as much.[10] Unless something becomes a large problem or if I think something positive would actually come of it. PackMecEng (talk) 15:49, 21 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

So at this point it looks like just about everyone is in agreement to lift the sanction and keep an eye on things. Sound like a plan? PackMecEng (talk) 03:32, 28 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by Masem

Not really directly involved in any fashion but I've rubbed up against Atsme and other involved editors enough to consider myself "involved", if only that I share Atsme's stance on how we are treating these topics. I've been in the same boat before with Gamergate (where my policy-based discussed on talk pages were considered by some to be disruptive but not determined to be by Arbcom), and in reviewing the diffs from the original AP actions, the worst I see is the tendentious editing facet, but everything else argued then seemed to be an attempt to silence a dissenting voice that is bringing up valid policy-related matters and otherwise not outright disruptive. (I've seen this far too much in other venues outside AP2) As long as Atsme is aware of TE issues and is willing to back off if told they're approaching that point, then there's no reason to not lift the ban. AP2 is going to naturally create animosity between editors, but we have to be careful to vilify those that seem to be contrary but are otherwise fairly arguing. Talk pages are there to work it out. --Masem (t) 15:49, 21 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

From Mastcell's comment The major concern was that Atsme consistently undermined or obstructed reliable sources, dismissed high-quality journalistic sources as "propaganda", and mischaracterized fact as opinion, all in service of an apparent ideological agenda. How one views what Atsme did (per diffs of the AP2 complaint) is eye-of-the-beholder stance. There is an unfortunate trend over the last several years that editors want to blindly use sources in a slavish manner without question, while there are others (which I'd include myself in and consider Atsme in as well) that feel that it wholly appropriate to consider the state of the state before blindly using sources. Which way to go is not prescribed by any policy, so there's no right or wrong way, thus it is improper to consider Atsme's interactions as disruptive for these types of comments is in poor judgement. Otherwise, this becomes a very easy way to silence opponents (the same problems happening at Gamergate) That there was TE-ness in their edits, that's very different and an actionable manner and one that, should their ban be lifted, to make sure Atsme stays away from. --Masem (t) 21:59, 21 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I'm simply re-stating the original basis for the topic ban. I'm not interested in re-litigating its merits with you, nor do I think you're doing Atsme any favors by minimizing and normalizing the behavior that got her topic-banned. MastCell ^Talk 22:06, 21 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Looking at the four diffs presented by MastCell, I want to comment on those. First, I do want to point out this statement from Bishonen's block action [11], I institute this ban per all MrX's categories: wikilawyering, long-time persistent resistance to good advice, repeating arguments ad nauseum, filibustering and dominating discussions without bringing them forward, and, most of all, for repeatedly discrediting reliable sources. The first four of those five (well, perhaps not the persistence resistance one) are all actionable as behavioral problems that have zero to do with any content, source reliability, or the like. I know I've been on the WP:TE side of talk page discussions, and long since tries to disengage as soon as I feel I'm going there, and that's something that is not unreasonable to expect with Atsme here. Those four behaviors can be disruptive and should be dealt with. The fact that Atsme backed off, and in this recognized the TE behavior as a problem is all reason to lift the ban, with cautionary restrictions should that behavior arise again.

The last one of Bishonen's areas is tied to MastCell's four diffs, and that's the area that I think is all in the "eye of the beholder". Where some might see those diffs as refusing to accept that reliable sources are beyond reproach, I see someone asking us to look at the bigger picture and how to consider those sources in treating a controvesial topic in a neutral manner. We're not an ivory tower or walled garden, and have every ability to question the sources', particularly in like of NPOV. No policy requires us to accept RSes at face value, a fact that tends to get lost in the current AP2 topic area. I do think some of Atsme's characterizations of sources get a bit too strong, but not to an actionable point - its only when combined with the TE-ness of how they discuss topics that makes the overall behavior troublesome. But to ask questions of source reliable is 100% fair game for a talk page discussion that doesn't veer into TE-like discussions. I would caution going too much into exactly how much we can question RSes, as that's a very very length issue - the point is that it is not a hard policy issue and one that editors can take different ways, and thus should not be consider actionable in lieu of any of the other above behavioral problems. --Masem (t) 00:34, 27 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Drmies: there's a very big difference between trying to argue that reliable sources are not reliable (which I don't think anyone is doing) and trying to argue that reliable sources are not infallible. The latter is very much in the realm of possibilities particularly in the present day situations and the state of the media. The situation that Atsme appears to have been stuck in is that all editors around them wanted to take the reliable source at face value without question, which is not a good method of writing a neutral encyclopedia. There is not a single policy that prevents editors from asking those types of questions. Now if they keep on begging and begging the question into TE territory... that's different. --Masem (t) 06:30, 27 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by Springee

I'm very much not an involved editor here. I have no idea what brought Atsme to this point. What I'm seeing is two camps. One that thinks a second chance is warranted, others who are pointing out past issues out of concern they will happen again. It sounds like a fence case. I see four possible futures here. One, consensus says no and it turns out they were right because Atsme would return to the problematic behavior. Two, consensus say yes and Atsme stays clean. Three, consensus says no but Atsme would have stayed clean. Four, consensus says yes and bad behavior resumes.

The first two represent the correct decisions given future behavior. They represent the betterment of Wikipedia. The fourth is unfortunate but also reversible. The third is the problem. In the third case the decision is effectively a punishment rather than protecting the encyclopedia. What is the harm in giving the benefit of the doubt in a fence case? If the Tban is lifted and problems return are people concerned that Atsme's behavior won't be scrutinized or an admin would be more than willing to restore the ban? If lifting the ban turns out to be the wrong choice it can be reversed, edits undone. But if it's the right choice, but not the consensus decision, then the Tban is a punishment for past sins rather than a protection. Both the editor and encyclopedia suffer for it.

For what it's worth, and I only know what people are saying here, I think she should be given the benefit of doubt and lift the tban. It can always be restored. Springee (talk) 00:59, 22 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by GRuban

Support per everyone and their brother. She's dedicated, experienced, energetic, kind, and an all around good Joe. Summer camp, well, if everyone who's ever made an unsuccessful attempt to lighten a terrible situation with a joke were excluded, we wouldn't have any humanity left. To err is human, to forgive is … among other things, what this noticeboard is for. --GRuban (talk) 15:41, 22 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I would also like to give proper due to some of the opposing voices, by quoting none other than the original restricting administrator, the inimitable User:Bishonen (in today's Signpost, no less!):

When people insist that before blocked users can be unblocked, they must apologise, admit their mistakes, agree to learn to avoid previous pitfalls, work to address all of the issues, pave the road, seek redemption, face the music, show that they understand why exactly they were blocked and how right it was that they should be, or show remorse, it's probably not because the insister would like to see a show trial or ritual humiliation.^[1] More likely they have some psychiatric training and know how important it is to resolve conflicts and seek reconciliation, and how much better the delinquent would feel afterwards.

--GRuban (talk) 21:15, 28 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ A talkpage post by User:Diannaa

Comment by My very best wishes

I think a successful appeal should generally include two parts:

What was the problem? For example, that might be a personal bias that a lot of reliable sources are equal to the "fake news" (as Mr. President said), or as Atsme tells here, "The news we're getting now is mostly propaganda". Obviously, one can not properly use reliable sources if one believes they are propaganda.
The solution? There could be different solutions. 1. Maybe the contributor realized that trashing reliable sources was wrong. 2. Maybe he/she still has a bias, but will not even mention any sources colored pink or yellow in this Table, while focusing on the sources colored green. 3. May be he/she is going to avoid editing any controversial subjects for a while. And so on, and so on. This depends on the person, but I am not sure what is that exactly, after looking at her statement. Something like "I will stay on point, present my case with civility while keeping brevity in mind" does not really address the actual problem I think. My very best wishes (talk) 16:21, 22 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Atsme. My apology if I misinterpreted something. In the diff you compared WorldNetDaily and NYT as equally "good" sources. My very best wishes (talk) 20:37, 22 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by Petrarchan47

I see no reason that the topic ban should not be lifted and good faith assumed. If Atsme is pulling our legs, or for some reason goes off the deep end, Wikipedians will deal with it in the moment. I see no harm in letting Atsme's future actions speak for themselves, and I see no good arguments presented to convince me otherwise.

Atsme's topic ban was meant to teach a lesson, and not, one would hope, to remain indefinitely in order to silence an editor who steers articles toward NPOV in Wikipedia's arguably left-leaning atmosphere. Obviously, any bias has a profoundly detrimental effect on the reputation of the encyclopedia. DGG points to this issue: the need for editors who speak outside of the echo chamber. Indeed these editors should be embraced if NPOV is treasured as it should be. I have not worked alongside Atsme on any political articles but I wonder from the response to the border wall cartoon if she is viewed by some as not anti-Trump enough, or seen as problematic for not adhering to a 'house bias'. petrarchan47 คุ ก 23:23, 23 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by Tryptofish

I've been wavering for days about whether or not I should say anything at all. But I've decided that I want to say that GoldenRing's most recent comment is correct. I think you should grant the appeal, and of course include very specific language about not backsliding and so forth. And if there is backsliding, then we will be back here swiftly, with decisive results. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:15, 25 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by Pawnkingthree

Just wanted to say I agree entirely with Mastcell. Someone who regards the New York Times and the Washington Post as leftist propaganda and not reliable sources for Wikipedia purposes should not be editing in this topic area. Atme’s refusal to answer Mastcell’s straightforward question is very revealing. Pawnkingthree (talk) 11:06, 28 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Result of the appeal by Atsme

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

I support lifting this restriction, on the understanding that the tolerance for trouble will be very minimal. GoldenRing (talk) 08:23, 21 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note that in making Shrike's comment unthreaded I made a bit of a mess of the template. @PackMecEng and Masem: If you consider yourselves involved, please move your comments back into the involved section. Sorry, everyone. GoldenRing (talk) 16:10, 21 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I consider myself involved enough to not participate in this section (beyond this message) to determine the result, but uninvolved in the larger picture. --Masem (t) 19:18, 21 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, no objection to the restriction being lifted, with the usual caveats about Atsme not backsliding into any of the previous problematic behaviour. Fish+Karate 10:10, 21 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
To add, I think the banner K.e. coffman has provided is evidence of a poor lead-balloon joke lifted here out of context, rather than 'political advocacy', and I note it is from 7 months ago, unless there's evidence of recent advocacy I'm not really concerned about that. Fish+Karate 10:32, 22 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Bishonen: Yes that's right. Sorry I wasn't clear - I would be concerned if there had been anything during the topic ban. As I mentioned, I'd want to see the topic ban lifted with the usual caveats about not backsliding into problematic behaviour, and political advocacy would be one of those behaviours. Fish+Karate 13:07, 22 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I share the views expressed by GoldenRing and Fish and karate. Sandstein 11:04, 21 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I'm a little troubled that Atsme hasn't addressed her remarks about Bishonen that I see linked above (Bishonen's statement). Atsme, do you still believe that Bishonen's actions were retaliatory and that she should be desysopped? I notice that you apologized only for using the word "hate" in your response to Floq - a word which, incidentally, you did not use - but say nothing about the other statements you made about Bishonen's motives following the block. It would be helpful if you would clarify whether you believe that the ban was justified and not retaliatory or made by an involved admin. --regentspark (comment) 19:38, 21 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Atsme, the reason I brought that up is because your initial statement says that you recognize that your editing was less than ideal ("strayed from the collegial", for example) but it didn't specifically address your remarks about Bishonen (actually, coming to think of it, the entire statement is rather devoid of particulars). The point is fairly straightforward. If you continue to think Bishonen's actions were retaliatory and unjustified, then most of your statement is, with apologies, hogwash. Which is why it is not irrelevant. Now that I've read Awilley's comments below, I think what's troubling is that you're dealing in generalities and not pointing to anything specific about what resulted in the t-ban in the first place and not pointing to any specifics about how you're going to change going forward. --regentspark (comment) 01:47, 22 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
In the interests of moving this forward, I think we should accept this appeal. I would have liked to see a clear statement regarding her view on whether the t-ban was justified or not but I understand that's not always easy to make. Awilley and Vanamonde93 make good points below that there has been some introspection and - cue ominous music - :) "people are watching" and there's more to lose than to gain by dragging this out. --regentspark (comment) 18:18, 27 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Leaning towards accept, but with a few thoughts and one big concern:

First, I think Bishonen's topic ban effected a clear net improvement for the topic area. Going back and reading some of the material surrounding the evidence diffs reminded me how bad things were getting, and as a side note it was interesting to see how many of the disruptive editors have since been topic banned or have otherwise moved on. If the topic ban is lifted I would expect Atsme to adapt to how things have changed, and try to further elevate the discourse (which is still far from ideal), and not drag things back in time to 2018 and earlier.
I think the appeal above does a really good job of dealing with the concerns of filibustering, IDHT, bludgeoning, etc. That really was a problem. In fact I wrote User:Awilley/Discretionary_sanctions#Anti-filibuster_sanction specifically with Atsme in mind, and if she hadn't already been topic banned at the time of writing I would have placed that sanction on her without any hesitation. (I think it would be a good idea for her to give it a read through and follow it anyway, since it's mostly just good talkpage etiquette.)
I don't think the appeal has adequately dealt with the concern about "Repeatedly discrediting reliable sources; claiming bias and propaganda in reliable sources" which was a big part of the evidence and rationale for the topic ban. Is Atsme going to continue referring to the "MSM" as "propaganda" or claiming that sources like Breitbart are as reliable as the NYTimes? Note I'm not saying that we should unquestionably accept everything the "MSM" says, but there's a difference between having a healthy skepticism for all sources vs. yelling "Propaganda!" and "Fake News!" when news organizations write things we don't agree with. I'd appreciate a response to this @Atsme.

~Awilley (talk) 20:11, 21 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Atsme: ~~Your request for diffs strikes me as a bit disingenuous, and~~ the page you linked didn't resolve my concern. You're responding to the diffs in "Group 1" as if the problem were civility. (It was not.) "The diffs related to the problem I am referencing are all here under the convenient subheading "Repeatedly discrediting reliable sources; claiming bias and propaganda in reliable sources" and also the diffs in the following sentence: "Although she often complains about clickbait sources, she is apparently OK with using source like The Daily Caller [12][13], Breitbart [14], World Net Daily [15], Daily Wire, and RedState [16]" I'm really not interested in re-litigating the rationale of the topic ban and copying over and analyzing diffs that you are perfectly capable of opening and reading yourself. All I want to know is that you understand what the problem was and that you intend to fix it. ~Awilley (talk) 00:07, 22 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I've given this some thought over the past couple of days. I believe that the best outcomes of an unban/unblock occur when an editor clearly understands the problem that led to the ban and makes a commitment not to repeat that problem. My concern here was that Atsme only did that for half the problem and didn't seem to understand the other half of the reason for her ban. My conversation with her on her talk page unfortunately did little to resolve that concern. The next best solution I suppose is to lift the ban with an explicit warning that repeating the behavior that led to the ban will result in further sanctions. Call it WP:ROPE if you wish. ~Awilley (talk) 22:02, 25 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I think we should accept the appeal. It is essential for the proper presentation of controversial topics that all views be represented , proportionately and fairly. It cannot be assumed that in an area like AP (or any country's politics, or any similar mater of wide interest and extensive coverage,) that the sources will be divided neatly into Reliable vs. Unreliable. There is no source whatever in areas like this--even sources which try to present just a factual chronology or something that seems absolutely straightforward -- that can be assumed to be wholly reliable. They may at best be reliable for what they include, but they will always leave some things out. They may do this through deliberate judgment, or inadvertently. Similarly , there is no source so unreliable that it can not be used for what the person who writes it chooses to say about their POV. We cannot understand honest sources unless we compare hem with dishonest ones. The key here is proportionality and fair presentation. Every one of us who is interested in this topic will have a personal POV, and the only way to avoid expressing it is to consciously and deliberately and carefully write for the enemy, something that many find to be very difficult. Even if we cannot do that. we still need to consider that there may be situations where the opposing sources are correct. If I dislike a particular POV, I will be handicapped in finding positive sources about them, and need to at least not oppose those who do find them. . Historically, sources that are generally despised sometimes are the ones which find the most valuable material, The only way to get a balanced article is to be inclusive.

I do not know how close Atsme's politics might be to mine, and in any case I could not talk about it here for I have no intention of disclosing my own--I do know people have made various guesses about it, all of which cannot be accurate. I personally prefer not to edit in this topic area, for the very reason that i do have strong feelings, and though I may be experienced enough to not let them consciously affect my editing, I do not want to say anything that might disclose them. I think it would be good if those who do edit in this area would at least try not to blatantly disclose them either, even in non-article space. I'm aware that some of the people who have been involved in this matter have in fact disclosed them, to a degree that I think improper. and which might have a tendency to discourage opponents. I would therefore set a very high bar indeed to a topic ban in this area. The reasoning is exactly the same why the US courts have long held that the rules on free speech and press apply particularly to political matters. These are the ones where we need to be certain to not exclude those on the basis they have too strongly expressed views that we may not individually agree with. Frankly, it does sometimes look as if WP does have a certain political slant. To some extent, this is unavoidable, and will necessarily as in all other topics reflect the people who work here. We should however try to minimize it, and I think we probably need to make an effort to keep partisan political discussion out of user and talk space, as well as articles; indulging in it gives the impression that it will affect the person's content contributions also.

The only significant thing that I think Atsme has done really wrong is carrying on an argument beyond the point where it is productive. Obviously, the same charge will necessarily apply to those on the other side of the discussion. We need to fight any tendency that might look as if we deal with it differently depending on the position. In any case, I think Atsme realizes the reasons why such persistence is not appropriate here. (persistency may be a great virtue in partisan environments, but not in discussing content in WP). I'm concerned both that we need to remove this topic ban, and that we avoid making other similar bans. It is never a good idea at WP to look for reasons to discredit one's opponents. DGG ( talk ) 07:35, 22 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@JzG :The repetition here of diffs from earlier years may show problematic behavior then, but it has little bearing on whether it would continue. At this point, I think repeating them constitutes an attempt to suppress further discussion at the proper places , and possibly even to fix the interpretation the way you would prefer it. DGG ( talk ) 02:34, 23 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

It seems to me that the questions being put to Atsme are straying into rehashing the original ban. If Atsme has turned up here arguing about those same diffs, we'd send her packing for re-litigating the ban; I don't see why we should entertain the same from other editors. Atsme has abided by the ban, shown fairly mature reflection on her own behaviour and asked that the ban be lifted; IMO we should give her another chance, but at any rate rehashing behaviour from before the ban is not helpful.— Preceding unsigned comment added by GoldenRing (talk • contribs)

Lift the ban. Atsme doesn't have to demonstrate that she wholeheartedly supports the ban, as opposed to believing it was unfair, to get it lifted. Editors trying to control her thoughts abd trying to get her in line with groupthought shouldn't even be commenting here.--v/r - T P 01:16, 27 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Straw man. Nobody is trying to control thoughts or get Atsme to say she agrees with the ban. ~Awilley (talk) 05:44, 1 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Atsme, I seem to remember giving you some advice about your tban, but aside from that my only impressions of you are positive, so I hope you take these questions as they are meant to be taken. I think your appeal addresses quite well the issue of the temperament necessary for editing contentious topics. Nonetheless, I don't think you've addressed the entirety of the issue, and I would like to give you a chance to respond to two specific points. First, re Bishonen: I disagree that the matter is irrelevant. The purpose of any sanction on Wikipedia is to lessen disruption. If, after an admin places a sanction, the sanctioned user runs to ARBCOM claiming the administrator was involved when they were not, that is a serious concern, because it is precisely the sort of time-sink the sanction was supposed to prevent. So, we can't expect you to suddenly be Bishonen's best friend; but I, for one, would like to hear a recognition that an admin who has previously sanctioned you is not INVOLVED just because they have sanctioned you. Second: Wikipedia very much has a bias; we're biased in favor of the preponderance of reliable sources, which may be identified in specific ways. There's is legitimate room on Wikipedia for policy-based disagreement about the reliability of specific sources. There isn't room to "correct" for "bias" that you believe to exist among the whole body of reliable sources themselves (As an aside, if you think I'm targeting your POV specifically, I'm not: the "reliable sources are biased" argument is found everywhere on Wikipedia, including in nationalist disputes, GMO-disputes, climate-change disputes, etc, etc: I have had to explain this ad nauseum to very many users) My point is, in reviewing the diffs which led to the ban, I see several in which you are griping about how sources that are as mainstream RS as you can find among the news media are in fact "biased", often in places where that wasn't even particularly relevant. Regardless of your personal views about said sources, I think you need to commit to keeping discussions on topic, and adhering to the guidelines as they are written. Are you willing to do that? Vanamonde (Talk) 02:16, 27 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, Atmse. @ The rest: I'm willing to grant an appeal at this time. I think Atsme has demonstrated more self-reflection than most people appealing a sanction, and has been here long enough to know that a successful appeal isn't a license to return to old patterns. If I'm wrong about that, well, there's enough people watching her actions, too. Vanamonde (Talk) 14:35, 27 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@MastCell: With respect, I think your latest query goes a little too far. Atsme is quite free to consider MSNBC on par with low-grade toilet paper for reliability; that's her prerogative, as long as she's willing to work within policy when discussing article sourcing. I think she has committed to that, certainly to the extent that we can grant an appeal. She doesn't have to discuss her personal opinion of any source, and I don't think you should ask her to. Vanamonde (Talk) 03:58, 28 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Dlthewave

Appealing user: Dlthewave (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – –dlthewave ☎ 17:33, 23 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Sanctions being appealed: Discussion Log

Logged warning by Sandstein
Deletion of User:Dlthewave/Whitewashing_of_firearms_articles by Goldenring

Administrators imposing the sanctions

Sandstein (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
GoldenRing (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)

Notification of those administrators

Sandstein

Goldenring

Statement by Dlthewave

I feel that the closing statement "Springee, Trekphiler, RAF910 and Dlthewave are warned not to misuse Wikipedia as a forum for polemic statements unrelated to Wikipedia, or attacking or vilifying groups of editors, persons, or other entities.", which appears to be copy-and-pasted from WP:POLEMIC, is not an accurate assessment of consensus among the admins who participated in the discussion. Among other things, it implies that all four editors are equally at fault, which does not appear to be what the admins intended in their support for a logged warning. Although Goldenring did delete a page in my userspace under WP:POLEMIC, there was no discussion of my "attacking" or "vilifying" anyone and one admin even stated "Dlthewave is in fact engaged in appropriate editing and discussion." There was no proposal to issue a logged warning to Dlthewave. (As a sidenote, I also feel that issuing a polemic warning to the other three involved editors instead of a warning related to talk page conduct was entirely out of left field, but that is something for them to address in their own appeals if they choose to pursue them.)
I feel that Goldenring's deletion of a page in my userspace, User:Dlthewave/Whitewashing_of_firearms_articles, has a chilling effect on my ability to document and share what I view as a long-term pattern in the gun control/gun crime topic area. This documentation plays an essential role in addressing current problems that are, in my opinion, a continuation of that pattern. My intention is to demonstrate a pattern and not to attack the individual editors who have been involved in that pattern. This removal is especially concerning when the "opposing" attacks and accusations which I documented are allowed to remain in full view at WP:Firearms and other talk pages. I would be open to discussing ways to do this that would not be viewed as an attack page, since similar pages maintained by other editors have passed MfD.

Although this deletion may have been within Goldenring's editorial discretion, I would like it to be reviewed by other admins and preferably discussed by the community at Miscellany for Deletion. –dlthewave ☎ 17:33, 23 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I've opened a Deletion Review here as suggested. –dlthewave ☎ 21:53, 24 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Sandstein

After rereading User:Dlthewave/Whitewashing of firearms articles, I agree with the appellant that the page was not (quite) a violation of WP:POLEMIC because it did not name editors and did not make allegations of misconduct, except as implied in the title ("whitewashing"), but that alone probably doesn't merit a warning. Because that page was the reason for my warning, I am striking it and recommend that GoldenRing (talk · contribs) undelete the page. A case can perhaps be made for its deletion on grounds of copyright / attribution, but that's a matter for the deletion process. Sandstein 18:37, 23 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Per my comment here, I've also withdrawn the warning with respect to Springee. Clearly I should have read the enforcement request more carefully; sorry for that. I think that we should be more careful in the future as to whether or not to entertain enforcement requests directed at multiple editors. Sandstein 22:59, 23 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

In response to Bishonen, GoldenRing is correct that an action that has been labeled as an AE action may only be reviewed by way of the process described at WP:AC/DS#Appeals, that is, here at AE, or at AN or ARCA – but not at DRV. Bishonen, I recommend that you undo your temporary restoration of the page for the purpose of the DRV, or you may be desysopped for undoing an AE action out of process, as described at WP:AC/DS#Modifications by administrators. Any admin who acts on the currently ongoing DRV by overturning the deletion may likewise be desysopped. Sandstein 15:26, 25 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Springee

I'm clearly an involved editor. As I said before I think Dlthewave has a very strong POV on this topic and I frequently disagree with them. However, when push comes to shove, I don't think on good faith they viewed the page as a POLMIC. For what it's worth, I would support reverting Dlthewave's warning. Springee (talk) 19:12, 23 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by GoldenRing

I disagree with Sandstein above and stand by this action. Dlthewave has stated right here that the purpose of this page is to document long-term problematic editing and policy is clear that such material is allowed only for dispute resolution and when used in a timely manner. I don't see the practical difference between, "so-and-so said this" (which the appellant seems to admit would be disallowed) and "someone said this and here's a link showing who it was" which is what they've actually done. GoldenRing (talk) 21:01, 23 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Bishonen: I'm not sure why you've suggested deletion review here. AE actions cannot be overturned at deletion review, only at AE, AN or ARCA. Have you also not just unilaterally undone an AE action? GoldenRing (talk) 10:19, 25 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Dlthewave: I will reiterate here what I've said on the deletion review: if you wish to use this material for valid dispute resolution (probably either an ANI or arbitration case request) and can outline a reasonable timeline for doing so (either on-wiki or privately by email), then I will self-revert my enforcement action. GoldenRing (talk) 10:32, 25 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I would like to add, for what it's worth at this point, that I agree a formal warning to Dlthewave was not warranted. GoldenRing (talk) 12:07, 25 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Please note that I have requested clarification from the arbitration committee regarding my deletion at WP:ARCA. GoldenRing (talk) 16:02, 25 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Simonm223

Marginally involved. I just found out about the removal of DLThewave's excellent summary of the challenges faced to bring firearms into compliance with WP:N including the way that a wikiproject has tried to present their MOS suggestions as policy. I've said as much at another venue, but this is definitely not a violation of WP:POLEMIC and should be undeleted for the valuable resource it is. Simonm223 (talk) 15:03, 25 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by (involved editor 2)

Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by Dlthewave

The matter of the deletion itself should be deferred to WP:DRV as that venue is much better equipped for such reviews. Whether or not the action itself was appropriate should be discussed here or in a more general manner at Wikipedia talk:Arbitration Committee (where Wikipedia talk:Arbitration Committee/Discretionary sanctions redirects). — Godsy^(TALK_CONT) 10:49, 25 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Result of the appeal by Dlthewave

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

I commented in the initial thread, so I'm not sure whether my response should appear in this section, or above with GoldenRing's and Sandstein's. The deletion of Dlthewave's userspace subpage was arguably appropriate under WP:POLEMIC, and within reasonable admin discretion on GoldenRing's part. While I'm not sure I would have done the same, I'm comfortable leaving the page deleted. That said, I don't think a formal warning to Dlthewave is warranted; there wasn't really any support for such a warning amongst uninvolved admins in the previous thread, and it seems like overkill. The proper response to a potentially polemical userspace subpage is to delete it, which has been done. There wasn't any convincing evidence of a pattern of behavior warranting a logged warning on Dlthewave's part, at least not that I saw.
Regarding the logged warnings, I do take Springee's point that they perhaps paint the remaining 3 editors with an overly broad brush. There are clearly gradations of concerning behavior, with Springee on the mild end and Trekphiler/RAF910 showing a much more sustained and problematic battleground attitude. I'll leave it up to other admins whether we should modify the warning to exclude Springee, but it is worth considering while we're here. MastCell ^Talk 21:19, 23 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Hmm. This is definitely a confusing situation. Reading the deleted page, it does seem borderline WP:POLEMIC so, perhaps, GoldenRing was right in deleting it. But, Dlthewave brings up a good point. If they do plan on making a future case then how else can they keep a record of the edits they see as forming a pattern? They could do it off-wiki of course, but isn't it better to be open about one's activities? While the deletion was within admin discretion perhaps, in cases of this nature, it is better to leave them as is with a note to the editor that they can't leave it sticking around for too long. Imo, the warning should be withdrawn. --regentspark (comment) 00:22, 24 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure about deleting the whitewashing essay; I can't seem to make up my mind. Suggest dlthewave take it to Wikipedia:Deletion review. An admin should be asked to temporarily undelete the page for purposes of discussion as soon as the DR is opened. But I don't have any trouble agreeing with Sandstein, Springee, MastCell, and Regentspark that dlthewave's warning should be withdrawn and struck from the log, and Sandstein has already done so. Bishonen | talk 01:11, 24 February 2019 (UTC).[reply]

@Dlthewave:, I've temporarily undeleted your page for the deletion review. Bishonen | talk 22:01, 24 February 2019 (UTC).[reply]
Your deletion can't be overturned at Deletion review, GoldenRing? Are you sure? In that case, obviously I suggested it because I didn't know any better. A bit of bad luck that apparently nobody who did know saw my suggestion for Deletion review here at AE, some 20 hours before Dlthewave actually opened the deletion review. I'm not sure what should be the next step, considering there is quite a lot of discussion at the review already, and some disagreement about how to proceed. But whatever action is taken, rest assured I won't feel "undermined" by it, as somebody suggested there. I'm personally fine with whatever, although I want to apologize to Dlthewave for potentially complicating his situation. As for "Have you also not just unilaterally undone an AE action?", no, I haven't. If you're referring to my temporary undeletion of the page, for the deletion review only and with the front page covered by a template, per the instructions here, I can only ask you not to be so silly. If you're talking about my giving Dlthewave bad advice, well, I've explained how that came about (=ignorance on my part). Bishonen | talk 12:54, 25 February 2019 (UTC).[reply]

What an absolute joy you are to work with, Sandstein. It's a wonder more admins don't flock to help out at AE, where honest mistakes get met with immediate threats of desysopping. I do want to point out that there's a pretty clear consensus at DRV that the page doesn't violate WP:POLEMIC. @GoldenRing:, do I understand correctly that you are not going to recognize that consensus because it is being discussed on the Wrong Page^(TM)? If this is the case, then I suppose we should tell everyone at DRV their opinions are not wanted there, re-delete the page, and then have the exact same discussion here. Or alternately, GR could rescind the deletion.... --Floquenbeam (talk) 15:59, 25 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I not only agree that restoring the page for deletion review is not an abuse of process, but that deleting the page via AE would be an abuse of process. The way to remove userspace essays that are contrary to policy is MfD., and review of decisions there is at Deletion Review. DGG ( talk ) 06:53, 26 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Highpeaks35

I've blocked for 1 week as an AE action per BMK's diffs of personal attacks within the conflict area. Hopefully this time away from the project will also help them consider the other concerns that have been raised here. If it continues after the block expires, a new AE report can be considered. TonyBallioni (talk) 17:31, 25 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Request concerning Highpeaks35 User who is submitting this request for enforcement Vanamonde93 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 23:10, 24 February 2019 (UTC)[reply] User against whom enforcement is requested Highpeaks35 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log Sanction or remedy to be enforced Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/India-Pakistan#Standard_discretionary_sanctions : I'll keep this as brief as possible. Highpeaks35 has been around just over a year, and has made 7000-odd mostly gnome-ish edits, to articles broadly associated with the history and culture of South Asia. Frequently, though presented as minor corrections, these edits have NPOV implications (they may or may not be violations of NPOV, but they do alter the POV of an article); examples include the following (diff, diff, diff). There are a number of others, among which the unifying pattern is a tendency to add "Indian", "Indian subcontinent", or "Hindu", as descriptors for specific objects and customs. This, in and of itself, is concerning, as it appears to be subtle POV-pushing concealed by laconic and misleading edit-summaries. However, Highpeaks has also been in several conflicts, prominently with Fowler&fowler, many of which derive from the type of edits described above, including at Talk:India (and its archives, [17] and [18]), Talk:Indus_Valley_Civilisation, and Talk:Pilaf. In each case, again, Highpeaks appears to be attempting to portray specific cultural heritage as "Indian" (such as at the article about Pilaf), or alternatively to be advancing the argument that bits of history favorable to "Hindus" have been left out (at the article about India). Furthermore, in many of these situations, Highpeaks has veered into original research (diff (see their conversatin with SmokeyJoe), diff (no source was provided to back this up)). He has portrayed scholarly consensus as supporting his view when it obviously didn't (diff). He has also engaged in personal attacks (diff, diff), which he has refused to strike, displaying while doing so a certain inability to understand the underlying issues (diff). In sum, Highpeaks has for several months now demonstrated an inability to use sources with the rigor necessary for a contentious topic, and an inability to work collaboratively, which required administrative intervention. Vanamonde (Talk) 23:10, 24 February 2019 (UTC)[reply] Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any User has not been previously sanctioned. If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts) notified in March 2018. Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested notified. Discussion concerning Highpeaks35 Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks. Statement by Highpeaks35 I made my position clear, FF called my work “Hindu garbage.” Used “skin tone” where skin had no impact on the conversation. I am hurt and saddened that those language and content is being taken lightly from this user. This whole issue comes up when FF decides to come to my talk page, which I informed him not to do. I am not comfortable with him on my talk page, as his language and tone is not acceptable to me. He is usually degrading and boarderline insulting almost always (this is not just me, he has done it with other editors). (Highpeaks35 (talk) 23:40, 24 February 2019 (UTC))[reply] Statement by Beyond My Ken User:Highpeaks35 to User:Fowler&fowler on the former's talk page: In my POV, you are a racist and white supremaist of the worst kind. Using your influence and privilege to be disrespectful, arrogant, calling me and my work “Hindu garbage”, making fun of Indian women and their skin color, etc. [19] This is the same discussion referenced above. [20] Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:06, 25 February 2019 (UTC)[reply] WP:AC/DS Says, in part: Within the area of conflict, editors are expected to...: 2. comply with all applicable policies and guidelines; 3. follow editorial and behavioural best practice; The standard for civility in a discretionary sanctioned subject area is supposed to be higher than normal, regardless of where discussion takes place. Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:55, 25 February 2019 (UTC)[reply] Statement by Fowler&fowler I became aware of Highpeaks35 on 1 January 2019, when, upon returning to Wikipedia after a long vacation, I discovered he had made a large number of unwarranted edits in the FA India. The following day, he made a post on my user talk page, which seemed to be taunting me. Said he, "Wait... Above you stated: "I will no longer be working on India-related topics." Change of heart? Missing edit-warring on India related topics with you Eurocentric view?" (See diff.) Although I did think it was odd that a total stranger was being so familiar, I did not respond. Meanwhile, Highpeaks had also just added many images to India (See diff) Upon being challenged, he created sections in Talk:India, proposing in each section different images for inclusion in the article. (See diff) In particular, in the "Clothing" section there seemed to be gratuitous use of "Hindu," (or implication of Hindu) in the description of attire that had been introduced into India in medieval times by Muslims from Central Asia. I said so in my reply, using the expression "Hindu garbage," which I regretted later, to mean irrelevant, somewhat provocative, use of "Hindu" to assert cultural ownership of apparel that by bragging rights belonged to the Muslims of India, especially an India in which the relations between Hindus and Muslims have been fraught. (See diff.) Accusing me of racism, Highpeaks35 took me to ANI, where I apologized; see here) Highpeaks has since been feigning feeling hurt, assuming victimhood, but also insulting me across WP pages (see one example). Ultimately though, and more insidiously, Highpeaks35 has continued to make his POV edits of Hindu-, or Hindu-nationalist, or Hindutva, or Indian-nationalist promotion. One manner in which he has done this is to change "South Asia," "Pakistan," "Sri Lanka," or "Nepal" to "Indian subcontinent." (There are over 400 such edits with edit summary, "improve accuracy," in several hundred WP pages (see here) The expression "Indian subcontinent," as old WP India hands will know, is preferred by many India-POV editors, for it puts the brand of India on all the countries in India's neighborhood. Fixing these pages will take time. Highpeaks35 obviously needs some kind of restriction. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 06:54, 25 February 2019 (UTC)[reply] Statement by Sitush I don't have much time for this place at the moment but there is definitely something odd going on with Highpeaks35, aside from the extreme and unwarranted attacks noted above which they seem to be convinced do not need to be retracted. They have argued in this thread that this magazine article explains the justification for preferring the use of the phrase Indian subcontinent over other uses but, as I indicated in the thread, that replacement is often relatively imprecise and also point-y. I've not been active for considerable periods when they have been making changes, and a lot of their changes have been to aspects of Indian culture (such as foodstuffs) where I generally have little involvement, but I have a strong gut feeling that this all forms a part of some sort of Hindu nationalist agenda. I would have to trawl through an awful lot of my edits to find other examples of their inappropriate references to Indian subcontinent but they do exist. - Sitush (talk) 09:39, 25 February 2019 (UTC)[reply] Statement by (username) Result concerning Highpeaks35 This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above. I've blocked for a week per BMK's diffs. Such personal attacks are unacceptable anywhere, but especially within DS areas. TonyBallioni (talk) 17:31, 25 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I've blocked for 1 week as an AE action per BMK's diffs of personal attacks within the conflict area. Hopefully this time away from the project will also help them consider the other concerns that have been raised here. If it continues after the block expires, a new AE report can be considered. TonyBallioni (talk) 17:31, 25 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Highpeaks35

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: Vanamonde93 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 23:10, 24 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested: Highpeaks35 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log
Sanction or remedy to be enforced: Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/India-Pakistan#Standard_discretionary_sanctions :

I'll keep this as brief as possible. Highpeaks35 has been around just over a year, and has made 7000-odd mostly gnome-ish edits, to articles broadly associated with the history and culture of South Asia. Frequently, though presented as minor corrections, these edits have NPOV implications (they may or may not be violations of NPOV, but they do alter the POV of an article); examples include the following (diff, diff, diff). There are a number of others, among which the unifying pattern is a tendency to add "Indian", "Indian subcontinent", or "Hindu", as descriptors for specific objects and customs.

This, in and of itself, is concerning, as it appears to be subtle POV-pushing concealed by laconic and misleading edit-summaries. However, Highpeaks has also been in several conflicts, prominently with Fowler&fowler, many of which derive from the type of edits described above, including at Talk:India (and its archives, [17] and [18]), Talk:Indus_Valley_Civilisation, and Talk:Pilaf. In each case, again, Highpeaks appears to be attempting to portray specific cultural heritage as "Indian" (such as at the article about Pilaf), or alternatively to be advancing the argument that bits of history favorable to "Hindus" have been left out (at the article about India).

Furthermore, in many of these situations, Highpeaks has veered into original research (diff (see their conversatin with SmokeyJoe), diff (no source was provided to back this up)). He has portrayed scholarly consensus as supporting his view when it obviously didn't (diff). He has also engaged in personal attacks (diff, diff), which he has refused to strike, displaying while doing so a certain inability to understand the underlying issues (diff).

In sum, Highpeaks has for several months now demonstrated an inability to use sources with the rigor necessary for a contentious topic, and an inability to work collaboratively, which required administrative intervention. Vanamonde (Talk) 23:10, 24 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any: User has not been previously sanctioned.

If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)

notified in March 2018.

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested: notified.

Discussion concerning Highpeaks35

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Highpeaks35

I made my position clear, FF called my work “Hindu garbage.” Used “skin tone” where skin had no impact on the conversation. I am hurt and saddened that those language and content is being taken lightly from this user. This whole issue comes up when FF decides to come to my talk page, which I informed him not to do. I am not comfortable with him on my talk page, as his language and tone is not acceptable to me. He is usually degrading and boarderline insulting almost always (this is not just me, he has done it with other editors). (Highpeaks35 (talk) 23:40, 24 February 2019 (UTC))[reply]

Statement by Beyond My Ken

User:Highpeaks35 to User:Fowler&fowler on the former's talk page:

In my POV, you are a racist and white supremaist of the worst kind. Using your influence and privilege to be disrespectful, arrogant, calling me and my work “Hindu garbage”, making fun of Indian women and their skin color, etc. [19]

This is the same discussion referenced above. [20] Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:06, 25 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

WP:AC/DS Says, in part:

Within the area of conflict, editors are expected to...:
2. comply with all applicable policies and guidelines;
3. follow editorial and behavioural best practice;

The standard for civility in a discretionary sanctioned subject area is supposed to be higher than normal, regardless of where discussion takes place. Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:55, 25 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Fowler&fowler

I became aware of Highpeaks35 on 1 January 2019, when, upon returning to Wikipedia after a long vacation, I discovered he had made a large number of unwarranted edits in the FA India. The following day, he made a post on my user talk page, which seemed to be taunting me. Said he, "Wait... Above you stated: "I will no longer be working on India-related topics." Change of heart? Missing edit-warring on India related topics with you Eurocentric view?" (See diff.) Although I did think it was odd that a total stranger was being so familiar, I did not respond.

Meanwhile, Highpeaks had also just added many images to India (See diff) Upon being challenged, he created sections in Talk:India, proposing in each section different images for inclusion in the article. (See diff) In particular, in the "Clothing" section there seemed to be gratuitous use of "Hindu," (or implication of Hindu) in the description of attire that had been introduced into India in medieval times by Muslims from Central Asia. I said so in my reply, using the expression "Hindu garbage," which I regretted later, to mean irrelevant, somewhat provocative, use of "Hindu" to assert cultural ownership of apparel that by bragging rights belonged to the Muslims of India, especially an India in which the relations between Hindus and Muslims have been fraught. (See diff.) Accusing me of racism, Highpeaks35 took me to ANI, where I apologized; see here)

Highpeaks has since been feigning feeling hurt, assuming victimhood, but also insulting me across WP pages (see one example). Ultimately though, and more insidiously, Highpeaks35 has continued to make his POV edits of Hindu-, or Hindu-nationalist, or Hindutva, or Indian-nationalist promotion. One manner in which he has done this is to change "South Asia," "Pakistan," "Sri Lanka," or "Nepal" to "Indian subcontinent." (There are over 400 such edits with edit summary, "improve accuracy," in several hundred WP pages (see here) The expression "Indian subcontinent," as old WP India hands will know, is preferred by many India-POV editors, for it puts the brand of India on all the countries in India's neighborhood. Fixing these pages will take time. Highpeaks35 obviously needs some kind of restriction. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 06:54, 25 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Sitush

I don't have much time for this place at the moment but there is definitely something odd going on with Highpeaks35, aside from the extreme and unwarranted attacks noted above which they seem to be convinced do not need to be retracted. They have argued in this thread that this magazine article explains the justification for preferring the use of the phrase Indian subcontinent over other uses but, as I indicated in the thread, that replacement is often relatively imprecise and also point-y. I've not been active for considerable periods when they have been making changes, and a lot of their changes have been to aspects of Indian culture (such as foodstuffs) where I generally have little involvement, but I have a strong gut feeling that this all forms a part of some sort of Hindu nationalist agenda. I would have to trawl through an awful lot of my edits to find other examples of their inappropriate references to Indian subcontinent but they do exist. - Sitush (talk) 09:39, 25 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by (username)

Result concerning Highpeaks35

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

I've blocked for a week per BMK's diffs. Such personal attacks are unacceptable anywhere, but especially within DS areas. TonyBallioni (talk) 17:31, 25 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Tatzref

No action taken (without prejudice to another admin taking action). Volunteer Marek is topic-banned for six months. François Robere is blocked for a week by TonyBallioni. Sandstein 07:44, 1 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Request concerning Tatzref User who is submitting this request for enforcement Icewhiz (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 22:13, 25 February 2019 (UTC)[reply] User against whom enforcement is requested Tatzref (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log Sanction or remedy to be enforced Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Eastern Europe#Standard discretionary sanctions - for WP:HOAX / WP:V, WP:TE, editing against consensus and introducing rejected WP:QS WP:SPS, WP:PLAGIARISM of said SPS (alternatively could be WP:COI), WP:NPOV Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it While this report discusses content - this is not a content dispute. Content is produced here to prove plagiarism of a dubious SPS that resulted in the introduction of a hoax to an article: Tatzref is a WP:SPA whose 210 edits over the past year have revolved around Mark Paul, defending Paul in talk pages - first edit, inserting Paul as a source to articles, following consensus this was unreliable - copy-pasting material from Paul - see revdelled edits to Anti-Jewish violence in Poland, 1944–1946 from 01:42, 22 May 2018‎, and recently (evidence below) - paraphrasing content from Paul and copying citations. This academic source describes a work by Paul as "expressing the myth" of "the ungrateful Jew". (Per this academic source "ungrateful Jew" = "antisemitic trope") See RSN, and RfC on Paul (note comment on Tatzref) - consensus not to use this WP:SPS. Tatzref queried by @K.e.coffman: regarding a WP:COI vs. KPK. No response: [21] 16:42, 22 February 2019, 17:26, 22 February 2019 - expanding Jewish trade in Christian slaves - counter to prior discussion involving Tatzref - [22][23] 16:37, 22 February 2019 - insertion of "Jewish restitution text". (WP:PLAGIARISM of [24]) 18:16, 23 February 2019, reverted without discussion 21:25, 24 February 2019 - insertion of "pimp pogrom". (WP:PLAGIARISM of page 152) Despite challenges to the text and an open discussion at Talk:History of the Jews in Poland - Tatzref is absent. The "pimp pogrom" and moreso the "Jewish restitution text" are WP:PLAGIARISM (no attribution) of Paul. See User:Icewhiz/Illustration for detailed analysis. The "pimp pogrom" text misrepresents the sources it cites. Sources are clear this is inner-Jewish violence, while the text suggests possibly otherwise. The text says "more than 100 injured" while a cited source - Barricades and Banners page 127 says "over forty hospitalized".[25] The "Jewish restitution text" contains severe misrepresentations rising to WP:HOAX (sentence names per User:Icewhiz/Illustration) Jewish fraud - verified vs. source - there was widespread fraud. However, there was also non-Jewish ("fake Jewish" claimants) and Jewish/Polish joint fraud ventures - omitted. Thousands of reclaims - WP:OR and misrepresentation of sources (I have both, can send upon request). Kopciowski2008 (English) supports "over 240 cases filed", and Kopciowski2005 (Polish) supports "total of 291 files". Neither source tallies success vs. failure (though many were successful). Neither source (both local microhistories) support "Thousands of properties were successfully reclaimed" that the sentence asserts. (per this academic source- it is hard to estimate, but "extremely small") Restitution law - this sentence is cited to 38 pages in Polish (two works) and 1 page in English (one work - again a microhistory). I have checked the sources, and it seems to me a libelous (to the cited authors) misrepresentation. I will not send admins to read Polish (But see summary at end of Haaretz here) - but I will refute (sourced) several falsehoods packed into this sentence: "in effect until the end of 1948" - the 1945 decree was annulled in March 1946.[26][27] (claims continued under different laws till 1948) "or their relatives and heirs...reclaim simplified" - by design of Polish lawmakers ONLY directly ascending/descending-line heirs could use the simplified route, and this only resulted in possession, not title.[28] "expedited/21 days/same day" - "rarely as simple" for occupied properties.[29] "minimal costs" - 800 zloty (almost a month's wages) to file, 20,000 zloty (20 monthly wages) for case. Majority couldn't afford without help.[30] "outside the country" - Poland block returns from DP camps, Jews returning from USSR came after claims deadline in 1948,[31] "we will not permit some foreign Jews..."[32] Notable omission - claimants "were often murdered". [33] Notable omission - no restitution of state property/intent (including Nazi handovers to the state).[34] Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts) 17:23, 18 May 2018 alerted Additional comments by editor filing complaint Clarified use of 2017 source in point 2. In regards to Plagiarism - the text itself is an obvious paraphrase of Paul without attribution to Paul, Some 407(of 723) & 1557(of 3002) chars in the edits are are outright copies of Paul's citations (down to order, page numbers, and style) - this is not by chance, Tatzref cited material not required (even off-topic) to content he actually added to the article. When basing work off of a source (Paul), WP:PLAGIARISM requires attribution (to Paul). See User:Icewhiz/Illustration for full analysis.Icewhiz (talk) 06:19, 26 February 2019 (UTC)[reply] @GoldenRing: - even ignoring questions of copyright on citation style (which are unique) and ordering - quoting Wikipedia:Plagiarism - "Summarizing a source in your own words, without citing the source in any way, may also be a form of plagiarism, as well as a violation of the Verifiability policy.". If you look at User:Icewhiz/Illustration, you will see the prose is a paraphrased summary of the bits of Paul's manuscript I quoted there. This ties in to source misrepresentation - for instance "Thousands of properties were successfully reclaimed" in Tatzref's edit - this is not present in the very local microhistories by Kopciowski (each references a single courthouse) - this is present only in Paul who himself does not cite a source for this (he compiles an argument based on dozens(!!!) of examples/sources in the four page long footnote5)). Icewhiz (talk) 11:33, 27 February 2019 (UTC)[reply] Per this Springer published dissertation or this book copying citations is improper. Perhaps it would be best to defer to copyright/anti-plagiarism specialist (Diannaa?) in this regard.Icewhiz (talk) 12:23, 27 February 2019 (UTC)[reply] @Sandstein: - I apologize for the excessive length and complexity - it took me many hours to research&compile this. Ignoring long-term conduct patterns and weaker violations, the the main argument in a nutshell is that (6) 16:37, 22 February 2019 - insertion of "Jewish restitution text" - is WP:PLAGIARISM of [35] (which isn't cited, see User:Icewhiz/Illustration for evidence) + a misrepresentation/OR of the sources it does cite(11). This is a violation of a number of policies - WP:V in using a WP:QS WP:SPS (and WP:V+WP:OR in relation to the misrepresented cited sources), WP:NPOV, WP:PLAGIARISM, acting against consensus on Paul (RSN, and RfC), and attempting to evade scrutiny/mislead other editors by "stealth introducing" content from a source that would be challenged and removed immediately were it cited directly. The same applies (in a weaker fashion) to (7) 21:25, 24 February 2019, "pimp pogrom" (WP:PLAGIARISM of page 152, misrepresentation(10)).Icewhiz (talk) 13:50, 27 February 2019 (UTC)[reply] In regards to Tatzref's stmt - I never claimed #10 (pimp pogrom) or Jewish trade slaving were a HOAX - this was said on #11. The "pimp pogrom" text misrepresents the sources it cites (which appear in Paul in the same order and formatting) in a number of ways (not attributing a 1905 Reuter report as done in Bristow, Ury says 100 apartments and 40 injured - the text says 100 injured and 40 legal brothels). All sources I have seen (including those cited) present this as only or mainly inner-Jewish violence (two Jewish groups fighting one another) - the exception being the Mark Paul SPS - and Tatzref's text. I helped expand the new Alfonse Pogrom, but this is probably undue in a high level article covering hundreds of years which currently covers the 1905 revolution (many events) in two half sentences.Icewhiz (talk) 03:08, 1 March 2019 (UTC)[reply] In regards to VM, edits - [36] including "During Nazi occupation Poles and Jews were targeted for extermination", or [37] including "eventually both Poles and Jews were classified as subhuman and targeted for extermination". (not appearing in the source it cites), both returned after a challenge on sourcing/fact, may merit scrutiny.Icewhiz (talk) 03:49, 1 March 2019 (UTC)[reply] Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested notified Discussion concerning Tatzref Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks. Statement by Tatzref Since so many allegations have been leveled and I require time time to look and address at each carefully (I do not have the luxury of spending the better part of my day editing Wikipedia), I will be responding to the diffs piecemeal, after which I will provide a general wrap-up statement. The first installment deals with #10 -- allegedly part of my overall strategy to introduce a "hoax" into an article. Wikipedia defines "hoax" as "a falsehood deliberately fabricated to masquerade as the truth." Please be mindful that the allegations impute to me all sorts of devious motivation. Therefore, if any allegation is manifestly untrue, I believe it is appropriate for me to comment on the possible motivation for it having been put forward.Tatzref (talk) 20:22, 27 February 2019 (UTC)[reply] TIMING AND EVENTS LEADING UP TO THE REQUEST On February 24, 2019, User Yaniv (יניב הורון) was blocked indefinitely from editing "for Tendentious editing across multiple topic areas and time frames” (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:%D7%99%D7%A0%D7%99%D7%91_%D7%94%D7%95%D7%A8%D7%95%D7%9F&oldid=884873194). Tatzref (talk) 20:15, 28 February 2019 (UTC) This occurred after it came to the attention of the administrator that Yaniv had deleted text of mine as being allegedly “antisemitic vandalism.” This was deemed to be a “personal attack” and “a chilling tactic designed to stifle opposition, as documented above, and is textbook tendentious editing.” The following is the text in question, found in the article “History of the Jews in Poland” -- under the heading “Situation of Holocaust survivors and their property.”[reply] A restitution law "On Abandoned Real Estates" of May 6, 1945 allowed property owners who had been dispossessed, or their relatives and heirs, whether residing in Poland or outside the country, to reclaim privately owned property under a simplified inheritance procedure. The law remained in effect until the end of 1948. An expedited court process, entailing minimal costs, was put in place to handle claims. Applications had to be examined within 21 days, and many claims were processed the day they were filed. Poles often served as witnesses to corroborate claims of Jewish neighbors and acquaintances. Jewish law firms and agencies outside Poland specialized in submitting applications on behalf of non-residents. Many properties were also transferred and sold by Jewish owners outside this process.[229] The American Jewish Year Book reported, at the time, “The return of Jewish property, if claimed by the owner or his descendant, and if not subject to state control, proceeded more or less smoothly.”[230] Thousands of properties were successfully reclaimed, for example, more than 520 properties were reclaimed in two county towns of Lublin province alone (281 applications in Zamość, and 240 in Włodawa - some applications involved multiple properties).[231] In his strenuous defense of Yaniv, Icewhiz stated: “Yaniv’s description of the content may have been overly frank, however the problem is with the content itself - not commentary thereof. That suchWP:HOAX material - blatant and libelous misrepresentation of sources (and yes - this is a WP:BLP issue towards the miscited authors - Grabowski&Libionka) - is inserted onto the English Wikipedia is shameful, and that users get blocked for attempting to rectify this - is even more shameful. … There are other editors here who should have been blocked here. As it stands - the English Wikipedia would seem to accept such content, while blocking those who would call it out.” On February 25, 2019, at 16:43, I placed the following note on the administrator’s user page (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:TonyBallioni): Icewhiz’s allegation that the text purged by Yaniv (יניב הורון), as allegedly “antisemitic vandalism,” in fact constitutes “WP:HOAX material - blatant and libelous misrepresentation of sources” is every bit as offensive and baseless as Yaniv’s. Wikipedia defines “hoax” as “a falsehood deliberately fabricated to masquerade as the truth.” Set out below is the impugned text in question. No cogent evidence had been presented that any statement it contains is a “hoax” or that the sources (pages of publications) cited do not support those statements. Until Icewhiz produces such evidence serious consideration should be given to blocking his participation in Polish-related issues for the same reason that Yaniv has been blocked. On February 25, 2019, at 22:13, Icewhiz submitted his request for enforcement against me.Tatzref (talk) 22:17, 27 February 2019 (UTC)[reply] DIFFS 5. Re: “16:42, 22 February 2019, 17:26, 22 February 2019 - expanding Jewish trade in Christian slaves - counter to prior discussion involving Tatzref.” Allegedly, this is part and parcel of my “hoax” agenda. The latest version of the disputed text is found in the following passage in “History of Jews in Poland,” under the heading “Early history: 966–1385.” As elsewhere in Central and Eastern Europe, the principal activity of Jews in medieval Poland was commerce and trade, including export and import of goods such as cloth, linen, furs, hides, wax, metal objects, and slaves.[34] The trade in Christian slaves was opposed by the Catholic Church.[35] On February 23, 2019, Icewhiz objected to the inclusion of the second sentence and removed it. That sentence was referenced to Iwo Cyprian Pogonowski, Jews in Poland: A Documentary History, Hippocrene Books (1993), pp. 257–266. A little background is needed to properly understand what’s going on. Jewish traders (Radhanites) first came to Poland in the 10th century. Among other things, they traded in Christian slaves, which historians describe as their most lucrative commodity. These slaves were taken to foreign slave markets. The Catholic Church and some of the ruling class were opposed to that trade. A conflict with the Church ensued. When I joined Wikipedia in May 2018, there was nothing in the main text about the activities of these Jewish traders. However, there was an accompanying illustration with the following caption: “Adalbert of Prague freeing Slavic Christian slaves from Jewish merchants—relief of Gniezno Cathedral Doors.” Pogonowski’s book, which was listed under “References” and in several “Notes,” contains extensive information about this trade. In June 2018, I added information about this trade into the article. This met with some opposition. The matter was then discussed at length in Talk, with my providing numerous scholarly sources, including YIVO Encyclopedia of Jews in Eastern Europe and a statement by Professor Hanna Zaremska, curator of a gallery at POLIN The Museum of the History of Polish Jews in Warsaw that features a display on this topic. The sources I provided amply supported what I wrote. Six people, including myself, participated in the discussion. After some back and forth, there was apparent acceptance by all the participants but one that it was appropriate to mention the opposition of the Catholic Church. Three editors including Icewhiz were involved in drafting or reviewing the following text: As elsewhere in Central and Eastern Europe, the principal activity of Jews in medieval Poland was commerce and trade, including export and import of goods such as cloth, linen, furs, hides, wax, metal objects, and slaves.[33] Kraków became an important outpost on the route for Jewish merchants who brought slaves from Poland and other countries to Western Europe. In the 12th century Jews were excluded from the slave trade, due to the Catholic Church objecting to Jews dealing in Christian slaves.[34] Reference: YIVO Encyclopedia of Jews in Eastern Europe However, MShabazz, who had previously characterized my text as “original research” and called me “dense” (“You seem to think that all Wikipedia editors are as dense as you are”) objected to the expansion of the text and kept deleting portions of it stating, “I still don't see any consensus to include this disproportionate content.” I replied to MShabazz as follows in Talk: Three editors worked on the revised text which appropriately takes into account the heightened importance both the YIVO Encyclopedia and POLIN The History of Polish Jews (see above), as well as other sources, place on this particular "commodity," because of its lucrative nature and the ensuing conflict with the Catholic Church. This is not giving undue weight but rather important context. Consensus on Wikipedia does not mean unanimity.Tatzref (talk) 03:01, 5 July 2018 (UTC) None of the other Talk participants objected to the above statement. If Icewhiz believed it was inaccurate he should have spoken up at the time. He didn’t. I was inactive from early July until late February 2019 (with one exception). On my return, on February 22, I added the following text into the article: “The trade in Christian slaves was opposed by the Catholic Church.” On February 23, Icewhiz removed that text stating, “We discussed slavery at length at length in the talk page (last archive) - this waa rejected - gain consensus prior to reinserting, and please avoid cook.” I maintain that there was no clear consensus not to mention the opposition of the Catholic Church to the slave trade, and that 5 out of 6 participants either approved of or did not object to its inclusion in July 2018. Moreover, as mentioned earlier, the information I added on February 22 is consistent with what is found in the accompanying illustration.Tatzref (talk) 20:35, 28 February 2019 (UTC)[reply] 10. According to Icewhiz, “The “pimp pogrom” text misrepresents the sources it cites. Sources are clear this is inner-Jewish violence, while the text suggests possibly otherwise. The text says "more than 100 injured" while a cited source - Barricades and Banners page 127 says "over forty hospitalized".” The article in question is “History of the Jews in Poland.” Below is my text as it read prior to its removal by Icewhiz on February 25, 2019, for this stated reason: “A number of misrepresentations, miss-attribution, and probably UNDUE.” Three days of rioting in Warsaw in late May 1905, known as the Alfonse or pimp pogrom, involving bands of armed Jewish workers and members of the Jewish underworld claimed the lives of 8 to 15 people, with more than 100 injured. The workers looted and destroyed 40 legal brothels and places frequented by pimps.^[1] Bristow states at p. 61: “Reuter, the British news agency, reported forty houses of ill fame demolished, eight persons killed and one hundred injured.” Ury states, at. p. 127, “five people were killed in the events themselves, another ten died from wounds they incurred during the mayhem, and over forty were hospitalized.” My text sets out a range of deaths, even though it appears that the higher count (15) is probably more accurate. Obviously, “injured” and “hospitalized” do not carry the same meaning, nor are they necessarily coextensive. In all likelihood, not everyone injured would have required hospitalization. Icewhiz’s point about “inner-Jewish violence” is perplexing. Why shouldn’t an article that deals with the history of Jews in Poland not mention a major pogrom simply because it was perpetrated by Jews on other Jews? This is not an article about anti-Jewish violence perpetrated by non-Jews. In his monumental “The Jews in Poland and Russia,” Polonsky has no problem in squarely placing this important event, which occurred in the context of a major social problem faced by the Jewish community at the time, in the overall history of the Jews in Poland. That entire topic surely deserves a separate Wikipedia article, not just a short passage in this article. Clearly, Icewhiz’s allegations are baseless on all counts and thoroughly undermine his credibility. This was the bloodiest and deadliest pogrom in Warsaw’s history until World War II. It was an important event that has an extensive academic literature. The suppression of this information has nothing to do with any alleged multiple “misrepresentations, miss-attribution” of sources or with UNDUE. Those are demonstrably bogus charges. Furthermore, purging the information, I believe, goes beyond mere POV. It undermines the reliability of Wikipedia as an objective source of information.Tatzref (talk) 20:22, 27 February 2019 (UTC)[reply] Subsequently, Icewhiz alleged plagiarism of Mark Paul. A comparison of the relevant texts does not bear this out. My terse and factual text is clearly based on Bristow and Ury, the two leading sources that most authors writing on this topic cite. Just because Mark Paul referred to those same sources (as well as many others) in his lengthy commentary on this topic does not taint their use by others. Many authors writing on a particular topic cite many of the same sources, and it is not an accepted practice to acknowledge that other authors have previously referred to those sources or that they learned about those sources from other authors' publications.Tatzref (talk) 02:39, 28 February 2019 (UTC)[reply] References ^ Edward J. Bristow, Prostitution and Prejudice: The Jewish Fight Against White Slavery 1870–1939, Clarendon Press, 1982, pp. 58-61; Scott Ury, Barricades and Banners: The Revolution of 1905 and the Transformation of Warsaw Jewry, Stanford University Press, 2012, pp. 126-129; Antony Polonsky, The Jews in Poland and Russia, Volume 2: 1881–1914, Littman Library of Jewish Civilization, 2010, p. 93 Statement by Roscelese I don't do a lot of editing in this topic area and I'll defer to people who do, but my previous encounters with Tatzref led me to strongly suspect socking or off-wiki coordination as detailed here, due in large part to the account's singleminded crusade towards adding racist pseudohistorical sources into articles. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 04:25, 26 February 2019 (UTC)[reply] Statement by VM Ok. First, this is an obvious "payback report" for the fact that Icewhiz's partner in edit wars, Yanniv, recently got indef blocked by User:TonyBallioni. Icewhiz seems to want to "even the score". In regard to his points, one by one; I would consider Mark Paul a low quality source. I wouldn't use it myself. However it HAS in fact been cited in scholarly publications. It is also a FALSE CLAIM that Tatzref used the source "following consensus this was unreliable". As you can see for yourself no consensus on this question was ever reached. The source refers to Paul as a "mild" version of whatever this is suppose to be. This appears to be an academic dispute. Icewhiz's second link, which accuses Mark Paul, a WP:BLP of using anti-semitic tropes... doesn't even mention Mark Paul. Yes, but this RfC took place AFTER Icewhiz's diff in #1 and on a different article. Shrug. Insinuation. ???. The text about slaves was already in there. Taztref just added that it was opposed by the Catholic Church. The claim that this is WP:PLAGARISM is blatantly FALSE. First, for it to be PLAGARISM, it would have to be unattributed. But this is cited by Taztref. Even if we're talking about WP:COPYVIO that is not true either as the text is obviously different in the source provided by Icewhiz. What seems to be going on here is that there is one source, used by Tatzref (Kopciowski) which says one thing, and then another source, Mark Paul, FOUND BY ICEWHIZ which says something similar. Icewhiz then is asserting that because a source HE FOUND, says something similar to a source that Tatzref found... it must be "plagiarism". ... ... how does that make sense? What really seems to be going on here is probably that Icewhiz suspects that Tatzref used a source by Mark Paul but attributed the text to a different source, because Mark Paul is a low quality source. However, Icewhiz most likely does not have access to the source used by Tatzref so he can't verify that. Accusing Tatzref of "plagiarism" then is his round-about way of making that accusation while hoping that no one notices the bad faith involved and the fact he has no support for his suspicions what so ever. For the record, I have no access to Kopciowski either. Ditto. Uh... that discussion was just started yesterday. Tatzref does not appear to have made any edits to the article since. What kind of nonsense is this? All I got time for right now. Maybe there's something bad in the rest of the diffs. But the first 8 seems to be spurious and quite false in their presentations. And regarding Roscelese point - yes, there does appear to be some similarity between Tatzref and GGB and prolly someone should file a check user. The similarity could just be due to the nature of the topic and the popularity of some of the sources among the Canadian Polish diaspora. But yeah, it should be checked.Volunteer Marek (talk) 05:58, 26 February 2019 (UTC)[reply] @Francois Robere: Care to elaborate as to what you think my "motives" are? No? Then strike the bad faithed weaselly insinuations please. Re #5 - the quotes from EverGreen and Malik are not even about the text that Icewhiz includes in his diff! His diffs are about Tatzref adding 'slavery was opposed by the Catholic Church" to the article, and Icewhiz pretends like this is some kind of horrid thing do add (and it's in the sources) Re #6 - No, it looks like Taztref just used sources that Mark Paul used. Re #7 - what's your point? "There are also other words in the source which were not used so that's BAD!!!!" ??? Re #9 - what in the world are you talking about? What are you even referencing? Your quote does not appear anywhere on this page. Re #11 - "this is all very bad" LOL. Are you just being lazy? I think your whole statement is "all very bad". Very very very very very bad. Super bad. If you're gonna say "it's bad" you need to explain WHY. Dude, you're just throwing random mud, muddy, confusing mud which is hard to understand, and engaging in theatrics about how "bad" something is, hoping that something will stick, but don't actually support any of your assertion. Look, it's not a secret that both you and Icewhiz, along with the recently indef'd Yanniv [38] (freakin' a!!! that list of overlap is long!!! Might want to be more subtle in the future), had frequent disputes with Tatzref. Since one of your tag team got indef'd, you and Icewhiz are now trying to "level the odds" by throwing together a spurious WP:AE report which is really nothing more than a content dispute.Volunteer Marek (talk) 16:40, 26 February 2019 (UTC)[reply] Actually Icewhiz's #11 is ridiculous. He claims it's a "HOAX" and a "libel" but if you actually read what he's complaining about it's all about the fact that there are OTHER sources which address DIFFERENT details which Taztref didn't include. Why not just add these others sources and details? Did Tatzref try to remove them or something? No? Then this is just silly.Volunteer Marek (talk) 16:55, 26 February 2019 (UTC)[reply] @Admins - Francois Robere says that admins have been negligent in "protecting this encyclopedia from ethnic prejudice and ethnically-motivated vandalism". It's clear that by "ethnic prejudice and ethnically-motivated vandalism" he means User:GizzyCatBella. This is WP:ASPERSIONS and a pretty serious accusations. But FR provides ZERO evidence to support it. Let's see the diffs (and I mean actual diffs, not innuendo and bad faithed insinuations) of GCB engaging in ANY kind of "vandalism", ethnically motivated or otherwise. Or ethnic prejudice. If he can't back up that attack, then he deserves a ban, just like Yanniv got from User:TonyBallioni, because it's exactly the same thing.Volunteer Marek (talk) 20:24, 26 February 2019 (UTC)[reply] Sandstein writes: " In the same section, they write without providing evidence that "this is an obvious "payback report" for the fact that Icewhiz's partner in edit wars, Yanniv, recently got indef blocked" - Yanniv did indeed get recently indef blocked. Since User:TonyBallioni was the one who did the blocking, and since he has commented here, I saw o reason to provide a diff for this very obvious facts. Icewhiz was the one who started the relevant edit wars [39] [40], Yanniv then reverted back to Icewhiz's version with a disruptive edit summary that got him blocked, Icewhiz then tried to intervene on behalf of Yanniv, and against Tatzref on Yanniv's talk page with Tony [41]. Again, since Tony was involved in all of this, there was no need to provide "diffs" as he was already aware. If my comment was problematic Tony, not Sandstein would be the one to make that call. Sandstein then writes: "and accuse another editor of being part of a "tag team" - yes, I made that accusation, but I did provide evidence. Here it is again [42]. The three editors have edited 500 articles and talk pages together. Most of them obscure. For a combined 10849 edits. Ten thousand. Eight hundred. Forty. Nine. In about a year. A Grand Tatnum's worth of editing together. AND out of that 500, 200 are articles/talk pages with edit made within 24 hours of each other. 100 of them involved articles/talk pages with edits made within 3 hours of each other. That means these edits are either reverting together, sequentially, or supporting quickly each other in talk page discussions. Note that I did NOT accuse Icewhiz etc. of off-wiki coordination. That's almost impossible to show. But the evidence of tag-team behavior is right there. You can dispute the strength of that evidence. But you cannot claim that, contra Sandstein, it was not provided. Sandstein then writes: "among other instances of vitriol and confrontative statements" - speaking of unbacked accusations! Which statements? I'm disputing the accuracy of Icewhiz's diffs. I think they don't show what he claims they show. It's gonna be "confrontative", there's just no other way to do it. Sandstein then writes: "that have at best a remote bearing on the diffs that are the subject of this enforcement request." - oh this one is complete bullshit. I even freaking numbered my statements so that'd it be easier to see which specific claim of Icewhiz's it addressed. If Icewhiz writes "1) something something something" and I write "1) but no something something something" then that has a pretty freaking obvious "bearing" on the subject of this enforcement. This is... just.... uh, completely false. And seriously. If my comment was indeed problematic, the proper response would be to ask me to strike it. Barring that, it would be to impose a sanction on me commenting on WP:AE. But to pull a six month topic ban out of thin air - even though NONE of my edits to actual articles have been brought into question - ??? Yeah, that's insane.Volunteer Marek (talk) Statement by GizzyCatBella (unrelated to the original request) @Roscelese, Volunteer Marek, and TonyBallioni: I strongly object to being labeled "singleminded* crusader adding racist pseudohistorical sources into articles".[43] This is a slanderous, groundless accusation, and I expect an apology. I also demand urgent "check user" being processed to stop speculation of me being in any way connected to the user in question. GizzyCatBella (talk) 07:32, 26 February 2019 (UTC)[reply] Statement by François Robere @Volunteer Marek: I don't know what Icewhiz's motives are and I don't care - much could be said about your motives as well - as the report itself is justified. Tatzref's SPA nature was in question from their very first edit, and Roscelese wasn't wrong adding them to an SPI request I filed some time ago regarding another user. #5: Notice what others are saying: EvergreenFir notes that Tatzref "[left out] important context"; MShabazz notes that "Choosing to force in a few facts while ignoring the hundreds of others mentioned in the same sources, often on the same pages, is not acceptable behavior"; and Piotrus notes that the sources do not support Tatzref's central (and might I add - inflammatory) claim, and that he's unable to verify the rest. #6 includes a short paraphrase of Paul (starting in p. 2 of the source) along with data from its footnotes, with no attribution. Looks like plagiarism. #7 Not straight-up plagiarism (ie. copying as-is with no attribution), but they did rely on Paul. Polonsky is cited for support, but in the source he's cited for other claims then those made here; he was probably copied along with Bristow without actually reading what he says. #9 You should put that at the top... I went through the text looking for those bits. Otherwise it's convincing. #11 This is all very bad. It took me the better part of an hour and a half going through this. I second Icewhiz's findings, and support an indefinite ban on Tatzref from all topics related to Jews, Judaism and Jewish history, along with a warning against using non-RS for any purpose. I would also like to note, again, that our admins have been consistently negligent in protecting this encyclopedia from ethnic prejudice and ethnically-motivated vandalism. The fact that Bella is still allowed to comment anywhere even vaguely related* to Jews and Jewish history, after having committed more egregious violations of Policy and academic integrity than Tatzref ever has, is a sign of their failure. François Robere (talk) 16:15, 26 February 2019 (UTC)[reply] Statement by Piotrus Zeroth. Responding to ping by Francois above and making a full statement. First, regarding the request itself, I've recently suggested at talk of one of the articles to Tatzref to add quotations to some of his claims. TBH, I don't see much serious problems here - this request should be put on hold until relevant quotations are added, or not. With WP:OFFLINE in mind, unless another editor actually bothers to analyze sources used and provide relevant quotations showing that Tatzref additions are hoaxes, all we have going on here is a seemingly baseless accusation that some other editors 'don't think Tatzref is representing sources correctly'. Perhaps he is not, hard to say without sources, but WP:AFG suggests we should not be making such claims without sources / analysis to the contrary, and so far I haven't seen much of those, so.... PS. Francois said " Piotrus notes that the sources do not support Tatzref's central (and might I add - inflammatory) claim, and that he's unable to verify the rest." While the latter is true (I can't verify it, offline sources) I never said that "sources do not support Tatzref's central (and might I add - inflammatory) claim". Where did I say that?? If I cannot verify them how can I know whether they support it or not??? Francois makes no diff in his claim of what I said, and I find it rather worrisome that words are being put in my mouth that I do not recall saying. The only comment I can think of that is relevant from recent days is [44] and what I say there should be pretty clear (that I am AGFing Tatzref additions, but I ask him to add quotations if possible to ease verification). Second, it is a bit strange, to say the least, to see a report on two editors start by two other editors getting banned/restricted. It is nice to see occasionally WP:NPA being taken seriously (I don't hang around AE and such these days much, few years ago NPA was seen as a joke, if things are finally changing in that regard, it is overall a good thing). Third. As much as I support enforcing NPA and such, I want to caution Sandstein to take a bit more time before swinging ban hammer and making block and ban decisions. I note that Tony has for example asked others whether such an action he intends to take is appropriate. That's commendable restrain. But Sandstein has topic banned VM instantly. I have two issues with that. First, few months ago Sanstein topic banned User:Poeticbent, the most prolific editor in the Polish-Jewish topics, creator of many DYKs and GAs, for what he perceived as a (single) personal attack on Icehwiz (see User_talk:Poeticbent/Archive_16#Notice_that_you_are_now_subject_to_an_arbitration_enforcement_sanction). Offended, Poeticbent has quit Wikipeia and has not edited even since his t-ban expired months ago. Why did Sandstein issue an area topic ban for the most prolific content creator in that area instead of a civility/discussion-related restriction? I don't know, but in the hindsight it is clear IMHO that it was the wrong restriction, and it has led to a loss of a valuable editor. I realize this discussion is not a place to re-assess an old AE decision, but my point is that something similar may be happening here right now. Sandstein saw something he perceived as a personal attack, and without consulting others, decided to topic ban yet another editor for a perceived personal attack instead of considering a civility type of restriction (like a topic ban from discussion pages of EE articles, or a warning that another NPA in that area will result in a stricter measure). A half a year topic ban from an entire content area for a single unrelated NPA in AE is something I feel other admins should at the very least have to review and consult. Last but not least, I thought that at AE and such, the standards for NPA and such were somewhat lower, to reduce any chilling effects people may have in discussing other editors. While VM comment uses perhaps rather direct and strong language, I do not think that suggesting a connection between a ban of another editor and a motivation to criticize yet another editor here is some far fetched personal attack that should not be considered. I am not saying I agree with VM assessment of Icehwiz motivations, but it a statement of fact to say that 1) Yanniv (errr, ניב הורון ? - same nick? There is no User:Yanniv....) reverted Tatzref edits, VM and Icehwiz got involved in a related small edit war at History of Polish Jews, perhaps some other pages - I am not monitoring this in detail 2) Yanniv got banned by TB 3) Tatzref posted a message critical of Icehwiz to several talk pages [45], [46], [47] under heading of 'Icewhiz's defamatory allegations' or similar. 4) Icehwiz opens an AE against Tatzref. I do not think this AE request is a simple as a 'payback report', but again, there is a sort connection between ניב הורון 's block and this AE. I'd leave to the reviewing admins to judge if the connection is relevant here, and if so, what are the motivations for it. But to topic ban another editor for making an (bad-faithed, fair enough) argument that such a connection exists is IMHO rather unfair (6 months?), a wrong tool (civility restriction would be better suited than a topic ban) and finally, a chilling effect (WP:BOOMERANG is all good, but there's a point we can seriously scare people from posting anything in AE if we are too ban-hammer happy on comments like that). Fourth. If anything I said above would be considered a personal attack, or any related form of offence, and would lead 'someone' to consider banning or blocking me, please give me a chance to WP:REFACTOR any possibly offensive content before hammering me. TIA. Fifth, and going back to the two main editors in this AE. I respect Icehwiz for inserting a valued POV into many related discussions, but I'd caution him to try to reduce his presence in AE. While it is my subjective view, perhaps, all AE incidents in the last two years two years I can recall reading seem to involve him. At the very least, this must be stressful. Perhaps a change of attitude of sorts may be healthy? I used find myself at AE quite often a decade ago or so. A change of my attitude to wiki and adoption of more friendly and forgiving attitude has, I think, worked out quite well for me. It is a good reminder to all that other editors here are generally also trying to help, and that a good way of settling our differences does not have to involve calling admins for help and receiving a few semi-random bans on occasion, but instead, remembering WP:AGF and trying to meet other editors half-way. See also my essays at User:Piotrus/Morsels of wikiwisdom for my thoughts on related issues. Reading those essays is probably going to be less stressful than reading this thread :> --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus\| reply here} 01:37, 27 February 2019 (UTC)[reply] Comment to K.e.coffman note below: there is no denying that Tatzref is not neutral (and that's ok per WP:NPOV). I'd suggest however staying away from Godwin's law. In your comment about your google search you mention Stormfront, that could lead some readers to think there is a connection ("these audiences") between the respectable Polish-American NGO ([48]), and neo-Nazis. I don't think that's fair comparison. And I don't even see Stormfront in the hits I get after clicking your link, but I see that quote being used in NYBooks book review... Anyway, Tazref is not citing Paul these days. And if he cites reputable scholars that Paul cites as well, that's shouldn't be an issue - if he is using WP:RS, that's the end of the story. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus\| reply here} 07:51, 27 February 2019 (UTC)[reply] Statement by K.e.coffman (Tatzref) On the point of SPI, I don't think it would be helpful as it's unlikely that GCB and Tatzref are the same people. While there are similarities (both accounts promoted and defended KPK & Mark Paul), the editing styles are too different. Mutual connection to KPK is far more likely. On the original report, I believe it has merit. I've participated in the related disputes and had a chance to observe Tatzref's editing from the beginning. This is not a content dispute, but an on-going and problematic pattern of advocacy-based editing and promotion of fringe theories. His very first edit was to defend the fringe author Mark Paul: [49]. Paul, for example, subscribes to the idea that the Jews in the Soviet zone of occupation in 1939-41 were de facto Nazi collaborators; see here: Paul's thesis. Tatzref does as well: [50], bottom of diff: "Collaborating with one of these states in furthering these goals constituted de facto collaboration with the other." I've asked Tatzref early on if he was connected to KPK; there was no response: KPK Toronto Most of his editing was connected to KPK / Mark Paul. For example, he offered this defense of Mark Paul, ostensibly quoting Jan Karski's writing from WW2 (?): [51]. Just now, I picked a random portion of this quote and googled it: "unjustly denigrating conditions in Poland before the war". Two of the results are KPK / Mark Paul, and one is Stormfront. This suggests what type of audiences find this discourse attractive. In summer 2018, Tatzref stopped editing. He returned this winter for the AfD discussion on a hot-button topic: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Heaven for the nobles, Purgatory for the townspeople, Hell for the peasants, and Paradise for the Jews Specific to the recent dispute, when I saw the material added by Tatzref [52], I found it likewise non-neutral and possibly cherry-picked. It was also oddly ref-bombed. So I was not surprised at all when Icewhiz posted a PDF from Mark Paul where the same narrative was being advanced. I share Icewhiz's suspicion that Tatzref is using Mark Paul as his actual source and just copy pasting citations in to create an impression of RS being used. He might have access to all these sources -- who knows? He did not say as he did not participate in the Talk page discussion: History of the Jews in Poland#Recent edits. Ref bombing also makes the material hard to verify. In summary, I find Tatzref's editing to be contrary to Wikipedia's goals. His SPA contributions ([53]) advance fringe theories by using cherry-picked materials while promoting dubious publications. --K.e.coffman (talk) 05:29, 27 February 2019 (UTC)[reply] @Piotrus: Here's the Stormfront post in question: Polish-Jewish Relations in Soviet-Occupied Eastern Poland, 1939–1941: "Indeed very interesting what is brought to light here...", and a link to the KPK document: http://www.kpk.org/english/toronto/sovocc.pdf. I would like to know why a respectable org would publish a fringe author such as Mark Paul who asserts that Jews collaborated with the Nazis while under the Soviet rule, and why Tatzref believes the same: [54]. Perhaps he can explain his statement here. @TonyBallioni, Sandstein, and GoldenRing: Please review my statement above. I don't believe that this is a content dispute, but a promotion of fringe POV. K.e.coffman (talk) 18:44, 27 February 2019 (UTC)[reply] Statement by My very best wishes Simply, as a matter of procedures, what should happen here? First, this thread needs to be closed. Second, if it will be closed with the 6 month topic ban for VM, and VM disagrees, he needs to discuss this matter politely and reasonably with the blocking admin. If this does not result in anything, and VM disagree, he then should make an appeal on AE. My very best wishes (talk) 16:45, 27 February 2019 (UTC)[reply] I also think the topic ban for VM was unjustified. I believe his recent comments on this noticeboard, including questioning the motivation of the filer, are a justifiable opinion and can be supported by diffs. One can disagree with VM, but this is not a valid reason for a 6 month topic ban from all EE subjects. My very best wishes (talk) 19:37, 28 February 2019 (UTC)[reply] Statement by Nishidani Why shouldn’t an article that deals with the history of Jews in Poland not mention a major pogrom simply because it was perpetrated by Jews on other Jews? This is not an article about anti-Jewish violence perpetrated by non-Jews. Tatzref. Icewhiz was quite correct in arguing that, having read the sources, you omitted that the Alfonse pimp pogrom was a Jew on Jew matter. A pogrom, we all assume, is almost invariably an inter-ethnic form of violence, and omitting this crucial fact of its 'infra-ethnic' character, you left the impression Jews may have been attacking (Catholic) Poles, whatever your intent. On the other hand, Icewhiz had a simple option, rather than deleting this apposite datum: merely tweaking it to clarify it was an infra-Jewish outbreak of violence (and probably impelled by a desire to rid their community of practices which played into the hands of anti-Semites). It looks as though, rather than carefully assaying and reporting the facts neutrally, both of you are slanting the data, by different forms of omission.Nishidani (talk) 21:03, 28 February 2019 (UTC)[reply] Statement by MyMoloboaccount While I am not involved in this particular dispute I am know about this event and can state with 100% certainity that one of the claims by Icewhiz is wrong according to scholarly sources. According to Icewhiz in point 10 “The “pimp pogrom” text misrepresents the sources it cites. Sources are clear this is inner-Jewish violence, while the text suggests possibly otherwise" The point raised by Icewhiz about this being inter-Jewish conflict is definitely wrong. All the scholarly source I read on this subject write that while it started as conflict between Jewish groups it later involved Polish workers and impoverished members of the society.There is also an additional layer to this as from what I remember in later stage of the violence converts to Catholicism from Judaism were targeted by Jewish rioters-I will have to dig the sources aboutthis particular part of the event but there was definitely a lot of this in the press published from what I recall. In any case Icewhiz now has admitted that it wasn't solely inter-Jewish violence according to the sources on the discussion page for the articlePolish (non-Jewish participation on either side) - seems to be present in some of the Polish sources, I don't quite see it elsewhere., so I believe it would be appropriate for him to remove this particular accussation and point against Tatzref. Lastly the ban on VM seems terribly excessive and unproductive-really not in line with anything VM said here.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 22:16, 28 February 2019 (UTC)[reply] Result concerning Tatzref This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above. I’ve full protected History of the Jews in Poland for two weeks as an AE action given the disruption and multi-party content dispute of the last few days. No opinion on if further action is needed here, and will let others decide. TonyBallioni (talk) 22:51, 25 February 2019 (UTC)[reply] @Roscelese and Volunteer Marek: if either of you file an SPI and request CU feel free to ping me and I can assess to see if CU is needed. I'm not familiar with the users in question, so diffs directly comparing the users would be helpful. This isn't really relevant to the AE report, but since I was pinged and I'm somewhat familiar with the article's drama recently, I thought I'd respond to that unrelated point. TonyBallioni (talk) 06:14, 26 February 2019 (UTC)[reply] Setting aside the main issue for a moment, I find Volunteer Marek's conduct here worthy of interest. They note that casting aspersions is prohibited, and that accusations must be backed by "actual diffs, not innuendo and bad faithed insinuations", and that if an editor "can't back up that attack, then he deserves a ban". I agree. But I intend to apply these principles to Volunteer Marek. In the same section, they write without providing evidence that "this is an obvious "payback report" for the fact that Icewhiz's partner in edit wars, Yanniv, recently got indef blocked", and accuse another editor of being part of a "tag team", among other instances of vitriol and confrontative statements that have at best a remote bearing on the diffs that are the subject of this enforcement request. This is inacceptable and disruptive conduct. I note that Volunteer Marek has a relatively long record of AE sanctions going back to 2011, both in the Eastern Europe and in the US politics topic area. This has got to stop. I am topic-banning Volunteer Marek for six months from anything related to Eastern Europe. I am leaving the thread open to allow discussion of the original request. Sandstein 21:48, 26 February 2019 (UTC)[reply] Sandstein, six months for one sentence, in the relative free-speech space of ARE, that's a bit steep. More than a bit, perhaps. Drmies (talk) 04:54, 27 February 2019 (UTC)[reply] The sanction isn't for one sentence, but for the whole of the statement above, in which Volunteer Marek treats Wikipedia as a battlegound. Wikipedia is not a forum for "free speech", but a collaborative encyclopedia project; and AE in particular is not some kind of speaker's corner, but an administrative board whose very function it is to prevent disruption of the project, so it's probably the very worst place for these kinds of antics. Sandstein 12:40, 27 February 2019 (UTC)[reply] No, it's for one sentence (or possibly two). The rest of the statement is generally replying to the filing party's claims, many of which are indeed dubious. This is far too harsh. Re-think it please. Black Kite (talk) 14:53, 27 February 2019 (UTC)[reply] For similar reasons, I am also logging a warning to François Robere not to cast aspersions against others without convincing evidence. François Robere has fallen significantly short of the expected conduct of a Wikipedian by accusing another editor, who is not the subject of this request, and who is topic-banned and cannot reply here, of "ethnic prejudice and ethnically-motivated vandalism", and of violating "egregious violations of Policy and academic integrity". I am not proceeding to sanctions at this time because it appears that François Robere has no prior AE sanctions. Sandstein 22:00, 26 February 2019 (UTC)[reply] Sandstein, if you don't have objections, I am prepared to block Frances Robere for a week under Eastern Europe AE. Accusations of racist vandalism in what is effectively a content dispute is extremely disruptive, and in my view merits a block on the first instance. If there had been previous AE sanctions, I would make it indef, but this type of behaviour is toxic and needs to stop. It also makes it more difficult to deal with the actual racists vandals we get all the time when people try to use it as a trump card at noticeboards and in disputes. TonyBallioni (talk) 22:14, 26 February 2019 (UTC)[reply] No objections. This is an understandable approach. Sandstein 22:15, 26 February 2019 (UTC)[reply] Blocked. Still no comment on the underlying request, because it involves so much getting into the weeds of the content that it honestly feels like something that needs to be dealt with on talk pages, though I do understand the POV pushing argument, so I'll leave that for others to decide. TonyBallioni (talk) 22:27, 26 February 2019 (UTC)[reply] Getting back to the original complaint, as far as I can tell ~~the plagiarism claims are~~plagiarism claim 6 is just that Tatzref cited the same works as Paul, in the same order, in a similar citation style. While it's certainly possible that Tatzref copied the citations and changed the citation style slightly, I don't see anything wrong with that. There's nothing original about citing a work and it's perfectly natural to follow citations from one work (whether reliable or not) on to other reliable sources. Do we need inline citations for where a list of citations were found now? No. That leaves a bad taste in the mouth for assessing the rest of the complaint. Icewhiz's points 2 and 3 are not comments on Tatzref at all but on Mark Paul. Points 6, 7 and 9 are the "plagiarism" I've described above. That leaves: Point 4 - Tatzref has been asked repeatedly whether they have a COI and have consistently ignored the question (I think a similar case was discussed at AN or ANI recently but I can't turn it up on the spur of the moment). Point 5 - Adding emphasis to Jewish trade in Christian slaves after repeated discussions which showed no consensus for it. This is not great, but it's at the mild end of things, IMO. Point 8 - Not participating in a discussion of the text in dispute. Again, not great, but we're all volunteers. Points 10 and 11 - Source misrepresentation. I've only started looking into this. On it's face, this is a content dispute and I'm not sure at this point it rises to the level of disruption, but as I say I've only just started looking into it. Point 1 - The allegation that Tatzref is an SPA pushing Mark Paul ideas into wikipedia. I've only just started looking into this one, too. IMO this is the one all the rest turn on; if true, then the rest all starts to look like political POV-pushing. If not, the rest are valid content disputes. Hopefully that saves whoever comes along next some time digging into it all. I'll keep looking at it but don't have heaps of time today. Anyone looking at this should bear in mind that this is an area of history that remains the subject of considerable controversy; as such, we should not necessarily expect to find consensus in reliable sources and so questions of what to include become fairly subtle questions of weight and editorial judgement on which editors can legitimately disagree without necessarily implying behavioural problems. I tend to think that Icewhiz has not made the case for sanctions here, and we should be wary of effectively silencing one side of a valid disagreement with sanctions. But it needs looking into further. GoldenRing (talk) 10:53, 27 February 2019 (UTC)[reply] Yes, with respect to the main request, I lean towards dismissing it with no action because I'm not able to untangle it from the content dispute from which it stems. The request itself is phrased as a content dispute, in terms of complaining about certain content edits or sources, but not making clear how these violate any applicable conduct policies. I'm not saying there aren't any conduct problems here - there may well be - but they would need to be much better presented. Sandstein 12:44, 27 February 2019 (UTC)[reply] Note, on further review, it does seem that point 6 is valid - if Tatzref's text is not plagiarised from Paul, there are a lot of phrases that are co-incidentally the same. Icewhiz is right, Diannaa's input on the question of copying citation lists would be useful. GoldenRing (talk) 12:58, 27 February 2019 (UTC)[reply] Copying lists is okay, unless there's a creative aspect or a value judgement. Subjective lists should not be copied verbatim. Lists such as Rolling Stone's 500 Greatest Albums of All Time or Forbes list of The World's 100 Most Powerful Women are examples of subjective lists that it's not okay to copy in their entirety. What this source is saying is that a copied citation list can be used as a clue that the prose in the document is also copied. This source says it's improper to copy a citation list, but if you read the accompanying prose, what they are saying is that it's lazy and wrong. It might be considered plagiarism, if the list is selective and a lot of thought has been put into it. This would be difficult to prove. — Diannaa 🍁 (talk) 14:17, 27 February 2019 (UTC)[reply] Thank you, Diannaa, and my sincere apologies for hitting "rollback" instead of "thank" in the history list! GoldenRing (talk) 14:25, 27 February 2019 (UTC)[reply] Becase there does not seem to be interest among admins in sanctioning Tatzref, I'm closing this thread with no action, but without prejudice, i.e., an admin who believes that action is warranted can still take it. Personally, the matter is too complicated and too much tied to content disputes for me to feel comfortable taking action; AE is beetter suited to relatively straightforward cases of misconduct. As regards my sanction of Volunteer Marek, I note that there is disagreement with it, but the proper venue to resolve it would be an appeal by Volunteer Marek. Sandstein 07:42, 1 March 2019 (UTC)[reply] @Volunteer Marek: If, as appears obvious, you disagree with Sandstein's enforcement action, you may file an appeal on this AE page and it will be reviewed by other admins. Purely as a matter of formatting and avoiding confusion, and not out of a desire to create more bureaucracy or "paperwork," I think that discussion needs to happen in a new AE appeal thread rather than this one. Newyorkbrad (talk) 15:58, 27 February 2019 (UTC)[reply] Does that mean you don't think other uninvolved admins ought to opine about VM's topic ban here, Newyorkbrad? I don't entirely agree. I think the ban was over the top, and should be rescinded. Brad, you're in essence asking VM to write up a whole thing, "purely as a matter of formatting and avoiding confusion", and I don't think that's entirely fair. I know most people aren't as slow writers as I am, but for me it would take something like half a day to write up a persuasive appeal in a proper way, with diffs and so on. I think Sandstein should withdraw the ban before we close here. Why would that lead to "confusion"? Bishonen \| talk 21:41, 28 February 2019 (UTC).[reply] @Bishonen: Obviously Sandstein should withdraw the sanction against VM, which has garnered no support and deserves none, but I am pessimistic that he will do so. If there’s a sufficient consensus right here to overrule it here, fine. It was unjustified, and at a minimum was substantially overbroad, and if this is the right place I vote to reverse it. I can’t imagine an appeal from it would take long to write, either. Newyorkbrad (talk) 23:35, 28 February 2019 (UTC)[reply] It's a ludicrous sanction and it needs fixing, and it shouldn't be down to VM to appeal it either. Black Kite (talk) 23:38, 28 February 2019 (UTC)[reply] A consensus to reverse appears to be emerging. Newyorkbrad (talk) 23:39, 28 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

No action taken (without prejudice to another admin taking action). Volunteer Marek is topic-banned for six months. François Robere is blocked for a week by TonyBallioni. Sandstein 07:44, 1 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Request concerning Tatzref

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: Icewhiz (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 22:13, 25 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested: Tatzref (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced: Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Eastern Europe#Standard discretionary sanctions - for WP:HOAX / WP:V, WP:TE, editing against consensus and introducing rejected WP:QS WP:SPS, WP:PLAGIARISM of said SPS (alternatively could be WP:COI), WP:NPOV

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

While this report discusses content - this is not a content dispute. Content is produced here to prove plagiarism of a dubious SPS that resulted in the introduction of a hoax to an article:

Tatzref is a WP:SPA whose 210 edits over the past year have revolved around Mark Paul, defending Paul in talk pages - first edit, inserting Paul as a source to articles, following consensus this was unreliable - copy-pasting material from Paul - see revdelled edits to Anti-Jewish violence in Poland, 1944–1946 from 01:42, 22 May 2018‎, and recently (evidence below) - paraphrasing content from Paul and copying citations.
This academic source describes a work by Paul as "expressing the myth" of "the ungrateful Jew". (Per this academic source "ungrateful Jew" = "antisemitic trope")
See RSN, and RfC on Paul (note comment on Tatzref) - consensus not to use this WP:SPS.
Tatzref queried by @K.e.coffman: regarding a WP:COI vs. KPK. No response: [21]
16:42, 22 February 2019, 17:26, 22 February 2019 - expanding Jewish trade in Christian slaves - counter to prior discussion involving Tatzref - [22][23]
16:37, 22 February 2019 - insertion of "Jewish restitution text". (WP:PLAGIARISM of [24])
18:16, 23 February 2019, reverted without discussion 21:25, 24 February 2019 - insertion of "pimp pogrom". (WP:PLAGIARISM of page 152)
Despite challenges to the text and an open discussion at Talk:History of the Jews in Poland - Tatzref is absent.
The "pimp pogrom" and moreso the "Jewish restitution text" are WP:PLAGIARISM (no attribution) of Paul. See User:Icewhiz/Illustration for detailed analysis.
The "pimp pogrom" text misrepresents the sources it cites. Sources are clear this is inner-Jewish violence, while the text suggests possibly otherwise. The text says "more than 100 injured" while a cited source - Barricades and Banners page 127 says "over forty hospitalized".[25]
The "Jewish restitution text" contains severe misrepresentations rising to WP:HOAX (sentence names per User:Icewhiz/Illustration)
1. Jewish fraud - verified vs. source - there was widespread fraud. However, there was also non-Jewish ("fake Jewish" claimants) and Jewish/Polish joint fraud ventures - omitted.
2. Thousands of reclaims - WP:OR and misrepresentation of sources (I have both, can send upon request). Kopciowski2008 (English) supports "over 240 cases filed", and Kopciowski2005 (Polish) supports "total of 291 files". Neither source tallies success vs. failure (though many were successful). Neither source (both local microhistories) support "Thousands of properties were successfully reclaimed" that the sentence asserts. (per this academic source- it is hard to estimate, but "extremely small")
3. Restitution law - this sentence is cited to 38 pages in Polish (two works) and 1 page in English (one work - again a microhistory). I have checked the sources, and it seems to me a libelous (to the cited authors) misrepresentation. I will not send admins to read Polish (But see summary at end of Haaretz here) - but I will refute (sourced) several falsehoods packed into this sentence:
  1. "in effect until the end of 1948" - the 1945 decree was annulled in March 1946.[26][27] (claims continued under different laws till 1948)
  2. "or their relatives and heirs...reclaim simplified" - by design of Polish lawmakers ONLY directly ascending/descending-line heirs could use the simplified route, and this only resulted in possession, not title.[28]
  3. "expedited/21 days/same day" - "rarely as simple" for occupied properties.[29]
  4. "minimal costs" - 800 zloty (almost a month's wages) to file, 20,000 zloty (20 monthly wages) for case. Majority couldn't afford without help.[30]
  5. "outside the country" - Poland block returns from DP camps, Jews returning from USSR came after claims deadline in 1948,[31] "we will not permit some foreign Jews..."[32]
  6. Notable omission - claimants "were often murdered". [33]
  7. Notable omission - no restitution of state property/intent (including Nazi handovers to the state).[34]

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)

17:23, 18 May 2018 alerted

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

Clarified use of 2017 source in point 2. In regards to Plagiarism - the text itself is an obvious paraphrase of Paul without attribution to Paul, Some 407(of 723) & 1557(of 3002) chars in the edits are are outright copies of Paul's citations (down to order, page numbers, and style) - this is not by chance, Tatzref cited material not required (even off-topic) to content he actually added to the article. When basing work off of a source (Paul), WP:PLAGIARISM requires attribution (to Paul). See User:Icewhiz/Illustration for full analysis.Icewhiz (talk) 06:19, 26 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@GoldenRing: - even ignoring questions of copyright on citation style (which are unique) and ordering - quoting Wikipedia:Plagiarism - "Summarizing a source in your own words, without citing the source in any way, may also be a form of plagiarism, as well as a violation of the Verifiability policy.". If you look at User:Icewhiz/Illustration, you will see the prose is a paraphrased summary of the bits of Paul's manuscript I quoted there. This ties in to source misrepresentation - for instance "Thousands of properties were successfully reclaimed" in Tatzref's edit - this is not present in the very local microhistories by Kopciowski (each references a single courthouse) - this is present only in Paul who himself does not cite a source for this (he compiles an argument based on dozens(!!!) of examples/sources in the four page long footnote5)). Icewhiz (talk) 11:33, 27 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Per this Springer published dissertation or this book copying citations is improper. Perhaps it would be best to defer to copyright/anti-plagiarism specialist (Diannaa?) in this regard.Icewhiz (talk) 12:23, 27 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Sandstein: - I apologize for the excessive length and complexity - it took me many hours to research&compile this. Ignoring long-term conduct patterns and weaker violations, the the main argument in a nutshell is that (6) 16:37, 22 February 2019 - insertion of "Jewish restitution text" - is WP:PLAGIARISM of [35] (which isn't cited, see User:Icewhiz/Illustration for evidence) + a misrepresentation/OR of the sources it does cite(11). This is a violation of a number of policies - WP:V in using a WP:QS WP:SPS (and WP:V+WP:OR in relation to the misrepresented cited sources), WP:NPOV, WP:PLAGIARISM, acting against consensus on Paul (RSN, and RfC), and attempting to evade scrutiny/mislead other editors by "stealth introducing" content from a source that would be challenged and removed immediately were it cited directly. The same applies (in a weaker fashion) to (7) 21:25, 24 February 2019, "pimp pogrom" (WP:PLAGIARISM of page 152, misrepresentation(10)).Icewhiz (talk) 13:50, 27 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

In regards to Tatzref's stmt - I never claimed #10 (pimp pogrom) or Jewish trade slaving were a HOAX - this was said on #11. The "pimp pogrom" text misrepresents the sources it cites (which appear in Paul in the same order and formatting) in a number of ways (not attributing a 1905 Reuter report as done in Bristow, Ury says 100 apartments and 40 injured - the text says 100 injured and 40 legal brothels). All sources I have seen (including those cited) present this as only or mainly inner-Jewish violence (two Jewish groups fighting one another) - the exception being the Mark Paul SPS - and Tatzref's text. I helped expand the new Alfonse Pogrom, but this is probably undue in a high level article covering hundreds of years which currently covers the 1905 revolution (many events) in two half sentences.Icewhiz (talk) 03:08, 1 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

In regards to VM, edits - [36] including "During Nazi occupation Poles and Jews were targeted for extermination", or [37] including "eventually both Poles and Jews were classified as subhuman and targeted for extermination". (not appearing in the source it cites), both returned after a challenge on sourcing/fact, may merit scrutiny.Icewhiz (talk) 03:49, 1 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested: notified

Discussion concerning Tatzref

Statement by Tatzref

Since so many allegations have been leveled and I require time time to look and address at each carefully (I do not have the luxury of spending the better part of my day editing Wikipedia), I will be responding to the diffs piecemeal, after which I will provide a general wrap-up statement. The first installment deals with #10 -- allegedly part of my overall strategy to introduce a "hoax" into an article. Wikipedia defines "hoax" as "a falsehood deliberately fabricated to masquerade as the truth." Please be mindful that the allegations impute to me all sorts of devious motivation. Therefore, if any allegation is manifestly untrue, I believe it is appropriate for me to comment on the possible motivation for it having been put forward.Tatzref (talk) 20:22, 27 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

TIMING AND EVENTS LEADING UP TO THE REQUEST

On February 24, 2019, User Yaniv (יניב הורון) was blocked indefinitely from editing "for Tendentious editing across multiple topic areas and time frames” (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:%D7%99%D7%A0%D7%99%D7%91_%D7%94%D7%95%D7%A8%D7%95%D7%9F&oldid=884873194). Tatzref (talk) 20:15, 28 February 2019 (UTC) This occurred after it came to the attention of the administrator that Yaniv had deleted text of mine as being allegedly “antisemitic vandalism.” This was deemed to be a “personal attack” and “a chilling tactic designed to stifle opposition, as documented above, and is textbook tendentious editing.” The following is the text in question, found in the article “History of the Jews in Poland” -- under the heading “Situation of Holocaust survivors and their property.”[reply]

A restitution law "On Abandoned Real Estates" of May 6, 1945 allowed property owners who had been dispossessed, or their relatives and heirs, whether residing in Poland or outside the country, to reclaim privately owned property under a simplified inheritance procedure. The law remained in effect until the end of 1948. An expedited court process, entailing minimal costs, was put in place to handle claims. Applications had to be examined within 21 days, and many claims were processed the day they were filed. Poles often served as witnesses to corroborate claims of Jewish neighbors and acquaintances. Jewish law firms and agencies outside Poland specialized in submitting applications on behalf of non-residents. Many properties were also transferred and sold by Jewish owners outside this process.[229] The American Jewish Year Book reported, at the time, “The return of Jewish property, if claimed by the owner or his descendant, and if not subject to state control, proceeded more or less smoothly.”[230] Thousands of properties were successfully reclaimed, for example, more than 520 properties were reclaimed in two county towns of Lublin province alone (281 applications in Zamość, and 240 in Włodawa - some applications involved multiple properties).[231]

In his strenuous defense of Yaniv, Icewhiz stated: “Yaniv’s description of the content may have been overly frank, however the problem is with the content itself - not commentary thereof. That suchWP:HOAX material - blatant and libelous misrepresentation of sources (and yes - this is a WP:BLP issue towards the miscited authors - Grabowski&Libionka) - is inserted onto the English Wikipedia is shameful, and that users get blocked for attempting to rectify this - is even more shameful. … There are other editors here who should have been blocked here. As it stands - the English Wikipedia would seem to accept such content, while blocking those who would call it out.”

On February 25, 2019, at 16:43, I placed the following note on the administrator’s user page (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:TonyBallioni):

Icewhiz’s allegation that the text purged by Yaniv (יניב הורון), as allegedly “antisemitic vandalism,” in fact constitutes “WP:HOAX material - blatant and libelous misrepresentation of sources” is every bit as offensive and baseless as Yaniv’s. Wikipedia defines “hoax” as “a falsehood deliberately fabricated to masquerade as the truth.” Set out below is the impugned text in question. No cogent evidence had been presented that any statement it contains is a “hoax” or that the sources (pages of publications) cited do not support those statements. Until Icewhiz produces such evidence serious consideration should be given to blocking his participation in Polish-related issues for the same reason that Yaniv has been blocked.

On February 25, 2019, at 22:13, Icewhiz submitted his request for enforcement against me.Tatzref (talk) 22:17, 27 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

DIFFS

5. Re: “16:42, 22 February 2019, 17:26, 22 February 2019 - expanding Jewish trade in Christian slaves - counter to prior discussion involving Tatzref.” Allegedly, this is part and parcel of my “hoax” agenda.

The latest version of the disputed text is found in the following passage in “History of Jews in Poland,” under the heading “Early history: 966–1385.”

On February 23, 2019, Icewhiz objected to the inclusion of the second sentence and removed it. That sentence was referenced to Iwo Cyprian Pogonowski, Jews in Poland: A Documentary History, Hippocrene Books (1993), pp. 257–266.

A little background is needed to properly understand what’s going on. Jewish traders (Radhanites) first came to Poland in the 10th century. Among other things, they traded in Christian slaves, which historians describe as their most lucrative commodity. These slaves were taken to foreign slave markets. The Catholic Church and some of the ruling class were opposed to that trade. A conflict with the Church ensued. When I joined Wikipedia in May 2018, there was nothing in the main text about the activities of these Jewish traders. However, there was an accompanying illustration with the following caption: “Adalbert of Prague freeing Slavic Christian slaves from Jewish merchants—relief of Gniezno Cathedral Doors.” Pogonowski’s book, which was listed under “References” and in several “Notes,” contains extensive information about this trade.

In June 2018, I added information about this trade into the article. This met with some opposition. The matter was then discussed at length in Talk, with my providing numerous scholarly sources, including YIVO Encyclopedia of Jews in Eastern Europe and a statement by Professor Hanna Zaremska, curator of a gallery at POLIN The Museum of the History of Polish Jews in Warsaw that features a display on this topic. The sources I provided amply supported what I wrote. Six people, including myself, participated in the discussion. After some back and forth, there was apparent acceptance by all the participants but one that it was appropriate to mention the opposition of the Catholic Church. Three editors including Icewhiz were involved in drafting or reviewing the following text:

As elsewhere in Central and Eastern Europe, the principal activity of Jews in medieval Poland was commerce and trade, including export and import of goods such as cloth, linen, furs, hides, wax, metal objects, and slaves.[33] Kraków became an important outpost on the route for Jewish merchants who brought slaves from Poland and other countries to Western Europe. In the 12th century Jews were excluded from the slave trade, due to the Catholic Church objecting to Jews dealing in Christian slaves.[34] Reference: YIVO Encyclopedia of Jews in Eastern Europe

However, MShabazz, who had previously characterized my text as “original research” and called me “dense” (“You seem to think that all Wikipedia editors are as dense as you are”) objected to the expansion of the text and kept deleting portions of it stating, “I still don't see any consensus to include this disproportionate content.” I replied to MShabazz as follows in Talk:

Three editors worked on the revised text which appropriately takes into account the heightened importance both the YIVO Encyclopedia and POLIN The History of Polish Jews (see above), as well as other sources, place on this particular "commodity," because of its lucrative nature and the ensuing conflict with the Catholic Church. This is not giving undue weight but rather important context. Consensus on Wikipedia does not mean unanimity.Tatzref (talk) 03:01, 5 July 2018 (UTC)

None of the other Talk participants objected to the above statement. If Icewhiz believed it was inaccurate he should have spoken up at the time. He didn’t.

I was inactive from early July until late February 2019 (with one exception). On my return, on February 22, I added the following text into the article: “The trade in Christian slaves was opposed by the Catholic Church.” On February 23, Icewhiz removed that text stating, “We discussed slavery at length at length in the talk page (last archive) - this waa rejected - gain consensus prior to reinserting, and please avoid cook.”

I maintain that there was no clear consensus not to mention the opposition of the Catholic Church to the slave trade, and that 5 out of 6 participants either approved of or did not object to its inclusion in July 2018. Moreover, as mentioned earlier, the information I added on February 22 is consistent with what is found in the accompanying illustration.Tatzref (talk) 20:35, 28 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

10. According to Icewhiz, “The “pimp pogrom” text misrepresents the sources it cites. Sources are clear this is inner-Jewish violence, while the text suggests possibly otherwise. The text says "more than 100 injured" while a cited source - Barricades and Banners page 127 says "over forty hospitalized".”

The article in question is “History of the Jews in Poland.” Below is my text as it read prior to its removal by Icewhiz on February 25, 2019, for this stated reason: “A number of misrepresentations, miss-attribution, and probably UNDUE.”

Three days of rioting in Warsaw in late May 1905, known as the Alfonse or pimp pogrom, involving bands of armed Jewish workers and members of the Jewish underworld claimed the lives of 8 to 15 people, with more than 100 injured. The workers looted and destroyed 40 legal brothels and places frequented by pimps.^[1]

Bristow states at p. 61: “Reuter, the British news agency, reported forty houses of ill fame demolished, eight persons killed and one hundred injured.” Ury states, at. p. 127, “five people were killed in the events themselves, another ten died from wounds they incurred during the mayhem, and over forty were hospitalized.”

My text sets out a range of deaths, even though it appears that the higher count (15) is probably more accurate. Obviously, “injured” and “hospitalized” do not carry the same meaning, nor are they necessarily coextensive. In all likelihood, not everyone injured would have required hospitalization. Icewhiz’s point about “inner-Jewish violence” is perplexing. Why shouldn’t an article that deals with the history of Jews in Poland not mention a major pogrom simply because it was perpetrated by Jews on other Jews? This is not an article about anti-Jewish violence perpetrated by non-Jews. In his monumental “The Jews in Poland and Russia,” Polonsky has no problem in squarely placing this important event, which occurred in the context of a major social problem faced by the Jewish community at the time, in the overall history of the Jews in Poland. That entire topic surely deserves a separate Wikipedia article, not just a short passage in this article.

Clearly, Icewhiz’s allegations are baseless on all counts and thoroughly undermine his credibility. This was the bloodiest and deadliest pogrom in Warsaw’s history until World War II. It was an important event that has an extensive academic literature. The suppression of this information has nothing to do with any alleged multiple “misrepresentations, miss-attribution” of sources or with UNDUE. Those are demonstrably bogus charges. Furthermore, purging the information, I believe, goes beyond mere POV. It undermines the reliability of Wikipedia as an objective source of information.Tatzref (talk) 20:22, 27 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Subsequently, Icewhiz alleged plagiarism of Mark Paul. A comparison of the relevant texts does not bear this out. My terse and factual text is clearly based on Bristow and Ury, the two leading sources that most authors writing on this topic cite. Just because Mark Paul referred to those same sources (as well as many others) in his lengthy commentary on this topic does not taint their use by others. Many authors writing on a particular topic cite many of the same sources, and it is not an accepted practice to acknowledge that other authors have previously referred to those sources or that they learned about those sources from other authors' publications.Tatzref (talk) 02:39, 28 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ Edward J. Bristow, Prostitution and Prejudice: The Jewish Fight Against White Slavery 1870–1939, Clarendon Press, 1982, pp. 58-61; Scott Ury, Barricades and Banners: The Revolution of 1905 and the Transformation of Warsaw Jewry, Stanford University Press, 2012, pp. 126-129; Antony Polonsky, The Jews in Poland and Russia, Volume 2: 1881–1914, Littman Library of Jewish Civilization, 2010, p. 93

Statement by Roscelese

I don't do a lot of editing in this topic area and I'll defer to people who do, but my previous encounters with Tatzref led me to strongly suspect socking or off-wiki coordination as detailed here, due in large part to the account's singleminded crusade towards adding racist pseudohistorical sources into articles. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 04:25, 26 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by VM

Ok. First, this is an obvious "payback report" for the fact that Icewhiz's partner in edit wars, Yanniv, recently got indef blocked by User:TonyBallioni. Icewhiz seems to want to "even the score". In regard to his points, one by one;

I would consider Mark Paul a low quality source. I wouldn't use it myself. However it HAS in fact been cited in scholarly publications. It is also a FALSE CLAIM that Tatzref used the source "following consensus this was unreliable". As you can see for yourself no consensus on this question was ever reached.
The source refers to Paul as a "mild" version of whatever this is suppose to be. This appears to be an academic dispute. Icewhiz's second link, which accuses Mark Paul, a WP:BLP of using anti-semitic tropes... doesn't even mention Mark Paul.
Yes, but this RfC took place AFTER Icewhiz's diff in #1 and on a different article.
Shrug. Insinuation.
???. The text about slaves was already in there. Taztref just added that it was opposed by the Catholic Church.
The claim that this is WP:PLAGARISM is blatantly FALSE. First, for it to be PLAGARISM, it would have to be unattributed. But this is cited by Taztref. Even if we're talking about WP:COPYVIO that is not true either as the text is obviously different in the source provided by Icewhiz. What seems to be going on here is that there is one source, used by Tatzref (Kopciowski) which says one thing, and then another source, Mark Paul, FOUND BY ICEWHIZ which says something similar. Icewhiz then is asserting that because a source HE FOUND, says something similar to a source that Tatzref found... it must be "plagiarism". ... ... how does that make sense? What really seems to be going on here is probably that Icewhiz suspects that Tatzref used a source by Mark Paul but attributed the text to a different source, because Mark Paul is a low quality source. However, Icewhiz most likely does not have access to the source used by Tatzref so he can't verify that. Accusing Tatzref of "plagiarism" then is his round-about way of making that accusation while hoping that no one notices the bad faith involved and the fact he has no support for his suspicions what so ever. For the record, I have no access to Kopciowski either.
Ditto.
Uh... that discussion was just started yesterday. Tatzref does not appear to have made any edits to the article since. What kind of nonsense is this?

All I got time for right now. Maybe there's something bad in the rest of the diffs. But the first 8 seems to be spurious and quite false in their presentations.

And regarding Roscelese point - yes, there does appear to be some similarity between Tatzref and GGB and prolly someone should file a check user. The similarity could just be due to the nature of the topic and the popularity of some of the sources among the Canadian Polish diaspora. But yeah, it should be checked.Volunteer Marek (talk) 05:58, 26 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Francois Robere: Care to elaborate as to what you think my "motives" are? No? Then strike the bad faithed weaselly insinuations please.

Re #5 - the quotes from EverGreen and Malik are not even about the text that Icewhiz includes in his diff! His diffs are about Tatzref adding 'slavery was opposed by the Catholic Church" to the article, and Icewhiz pretends like this is some kind of horrid thing do add (and it's in the sources)

Re #6 - No, it looks like Taztref just used sources that Mark Paul used.

Re #7 - what's your point? "There are also other words in the source which were not used so that's BAD!!!!" ???

Re #9 - what in the world are you talking about? What are you even referencing? Your quote does not appear anywhere on this page.

Re #11 - "this is all very bad" LOL. Are you just being lazy? I think your whole statement is "all very bad". Very very very very very bad. Super bad. If you're gonna say "it's bad" you need to explain WHY.

Dude, you're just throwing random mud, muddy, confusing mud which is hard to understand, and engaging in theatrics about how "bad" something is, hoping that something will stick, but don't actually support any of your assertion. Look, it's not a secret that both you and Icewhiz, along with the recently indef'd Yanniv [38] (freakin' a!!! that list of overlap is long!!! Might want to be more subtle in the future), had frequent disputes with Tatzref. Since one of your tag team got indef'd, you and Icewhiz are now trying to "level the odds" by throwing together a spurious WP:AE report which is really nothing more than a content dispute.Volunteer Marek (talk) 16:40, 26 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Actually Icewhiz's #11 is ridiculous. He claims it's a "HOAX" and a "libel" but if you actually read what he's complaining about it's all about the fact that there are OTHER sources which address DIFFERENT details which Taztref didn't include. Why not just add these others sources and details? Did Tatzref try to remove them or something? No? Then this is just silly.Volunteer Marek (talk) 16:55, 26 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Admins - Francois Robere says that admins have been negligent in "protecting this encyclopedia from ethnic prejudice and ethnically-motivated vandalism". It's clear that by "ethnic prejudice and ethnically-motivated vandalism" he means User:GizzyCatBella. This is WP:ASPERSIONS and a pretty serious accusations. But FR provides ZERO evidence to support it. Let's see the diffs (and I mean actual diffs, not innuendo and bad faithed insinuations) of GCB engaging in ANY kind of "vandalism", ethnically motivated or otherwise. Or ethnic prejudice. If he can't back up that attack, then he deserves a ban, just like Yanniv got from User:TonyBallioni, because it's exactly the same thing.Volunteer Marek (talk) 20:24, 26 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Sandstein writes: " In the same section, they write without providing evidence that "this is an obvious "payback report" for the fact that Icewhiz's partner in edit wars, Yanniv, recently got indef blocked" - Yanniv did indeed get recently indef blocked. Since User:TonyBallioni was the one who did the blocking, and since he has commented here, I saw o reason to provide a diff for this very obvious facts. Icewhiz was the one who started the relevant edit wars [39] [40], Yanniv then reverted back to Icewhiz's version with a disruptive edit summary that got him blocked, Icewhiz then tried to intervene on behalf of Yanniv, and against Tatzref on Yanniv's talk page with Tony [41]. Again, since Tony was involved in all of this, there was no need to provide "diffs" as he was already aware. If my comment was problematic Tony, not Sandstein would be the one to make that call.

Sandstein then writes: "and accuse another editor of being part of a "tag team" - yes, I made that accusation, but I *did* provide evidence. Here it is again [42]. The three editors have edited 500 articles and talk pages together. Most of them obscure. For a combined 10849 edits. Ten thousand. Eight hundred. Forty. Nine. In about a year. A Grand Tatnum's worth of editing together. AND out of that 500, 200 are articles/talk pages with edit made within 24 hours of each other. 100 of them involved articles/talk pages with edits made within 3 hours of each other. That means these edits are either reverting together, sequentially, or supporting quickly each other in talk page discussions. Note that I did NOT accuse Icewhiz etc. of off-wiki coordination. That's almost impossible to show. But the evidence of tag-team behavior is right there. You can dispute the strength of that evidence. But you cannot claim that, contra Sandstein, it was not provided.

Sandstein then writes: "among other instances of vitriol and confrontative statements" - speaking of unbacked accusations! *Which* statements? I'm disputing the accuracy of Icewhiz's diffs. I think they don't show what he claims they show. It's gonna be "confrontative", there's just no other way to do it.

Sandstein then writes: "that have at best a remote bearing on the diffs that are the subject of this enforcement request." - oh this one is complete bullshit. I even freaking numbered my statements so that'd it be easier to see which specific claim of Icewhiz's it addressed. If Icewhiz writes "1) something something something" and I write "1) but no something something something" then that has a pretty freaking obvious "bearing" on the subject of this enforcement. This is... just.... uh, completely false.

And seriously. If my comment was indeed problematic, the proper response would be to ask me to strike it. Barring that, it would be to impose a sanction on me commenting on WP:AE. But to pull a six month topic ban out of thin air - even though NONE of my edits to actual articles have been brought into question - ??? Yeah, that's insane.Volunteer Marek (talk)

Statement by GizzyCatBella (unrelated to the original request)

@Roscelese, Volunteer Marek, and TonyBallioni:

I strongly object to being labeled "singleminded crusader adding racist pseudohistorical sources into articles".[43] This is a slanderous, groundless accusation, and I expect an apology. I also demand urgent "check user" being processed to stop speculation of me being in any way connected to the user in question. GizzyCatBella (talk) 07:32, 26 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by François Robere

@Volunteer Marek: I don't know what Icewhiz's motives are and I don't care - much could be said about your motives as well - as the report itself is justified. Tatzref's SPA nature was in question from their very first edit, and Roscelese wasn't wrong adding them to an SPI request I filed some time ago regarding another user.

#5: Notice what others are saying: EvergreenFir notes that Tatzref "[left out] important context"; MShabazz notes that "Choosing to force in a few facts while ignoring the hundreds of others mentioned in the same sources, often on the same pages, is not acceptable behavior"; and Piotrus notes that the sources do not support Tatzref's central (and might I add - inflammatory) claim, and that he's unable to verify the rest.
#6 includes a short paraphrase of Paul (starting in p. 2 of the source) along with data from its footnotes, with no attribution. Looks like plagiarism.
#7 Not straight-up plagiarism (ie. copying as-is with no attribution), but they did rely on Paul. Polonsky is cited for support, but in the source he's cited for other claims then those made here; he was probably copied along with Bristow without actually reading what he says.
#9 You should put that at the top... I went through the text looking for those bits. Otherwise it's convincing.
#11 This is all very bad.

It took me the better part of an hour and a half going through this. I second Icewhiz's findings, and support an indefinite ban on Tatzref from all topics related to Jews, Judaism and Jewish history, along with a warning against using non-RS for any purpose.

I would also like to note, again, that our admins have been consistently negligent in protecting this encyclopedia from ethnic prejudice and ethnically-motivated vandalism. The fact that Bella is still allowed to comment anywhere even vaguely related to Jews and Jewish history, after having committed more egregious violations of Policy and academic integrity than Tatzref ever has, is a sign of their failure. François Robere (talk) 16:15, 26 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Piotrus

Zeroth. Responding to ping by Francois above and making a full statement.

First, regarding the request itself, I've recently suggested at talk of one of the articles to Tatzref to add quotations to some of his claims. TBH, I don't see much serious problems here - this request should be put on hold until relevant quotations are added, or not. With WP:OFFLINE in mind, unless another editor actually bothers to analyze sources used and provide relevant quotations showing that Tatzref additions are hoaxes, all we have going on here is a seemingly baseless accusation that some other editors 'don't think Tatzref is representing sources correctly'. Perhaps he is not, hard to say without sources, but WP:AFG suggests we should not be making such claims without sources / analysis to the contrary, and so far I haven't seen much of those, so.... PS. Francois said " Piotrus notes that the sources do not support Tatzref's central (and might I add - inflammatory) claim, and that he's unable to verify the rest." While the latter is true (I can't verify it, offline sources) I never said that "sources do not support Tatzref's central (and might I add - inflammatory) claim". Where did I say that?? If I cannot verify them how can I know whether they support it or not??? Francois makes no diff in his claim of what I said, and I find it rather worrisome that words are being put in my mouth that I do not recall saying. The only comment I can think of that is relevant from recent days is [44] and what I say there should be pretty clear (that I am AGFing Tatzref additions, but I ask him to add quotations if possible to ease verification).

Second, it is a bit strange, to say the least, to see a report on two editors start by two other editors getting banned/restricted. It is nice to see occasionally WP:NPA being taken seriously (I don't hang around AE and such these days much, few years ago NPA was seen as a joke, if things are finally changing in that regard, it is overall a good thing).

Third. As much as I support enforcing NPA and such, I want to caution Sandstein to take a bit more time before swinging ban hammer and making block and ban decisions. I note that Tony has for example asked others whether such an action he intends to take is appropriate. That's commendable restrain. But Sandstein has topic banned VM instantly. I have two issues with that. First, few months ago Sanstein topic banned User:Poeticbent, the most prolific editor in the Polish-Jewish topics, creator of many DYKs and GAs, for what he perceived as a (single) personal attack on Icehwiz (see User_talk:Poeticbent/Archive_16#Notice_that_you_are_now_subject_to_an_arbitration_enforcement_sanction). Offended, Poeticbent has quit Wikipeia and has not edited even since his t-ban expired months ago. Why did Sandstein issue an area topic ban for the most prolific content creator in that area instead of a civility/discussion-related restriction? I don't know, but in the hindsight it is clear IMHO that it was the wrong restriction, and it has led to a loss of a valuable editor. I realize this discussion is not a place to re-assess an old AE decision, but my point is that something similar may be happening here right now. Sandstein saw something he perceived as a personal attack, and without consulting others, decided to topic ban yet another editor for a perceived personal attack instead of considering a civility type of restriction (like a topic ban from discussion pages of EE articles, or a warning that another NPA in that area will result in a stricter measure). A half a year topic ban from an entire content area for a single unrelated NPA in AE is something I feel other admins should at the very least have to review and consult. Last but not least, I thought that at AE and such, the standards for NPA and such were somewhat lower, to reduce any chilling effects people may have in discussing other editors. While VM comment uses perhaps rather direct and strong language, I do not think that suggesting a connection between a ban of another editor and a motivation to criticize yet another editor here is some far fetched personal attack that should not be considered. I am not saying I agree with VM assessment of Icehwiz motivations, but it a statement of fact to say that 1) Yanniv (errr, ניב הורון ? - same nick? There is no User:Yanniv....) reverted Tatzref edits, VM and Icehwiz got involved in a related small edit war at History of Polish Jews, perhaps some other pages - I am not monitoring this in detail 2) Yanniv got banned by TB 3) Tatzref posted a message critical of Icehwiz to several talk pages [45], [46], [47] under heading of 'Icewhiz's defamatory allegations' or similar. 4) Icehwiz opens an AE against Tatzref. I do not think this AE request is a simple as a 'payback report', but again, there is a sort connection between ניב הורון 's block and this AE. I'd leave to the reviewing admins to judge if the connection is relevant here, and if so, what are the motivations for it. But to topic ban another editor for making an (bad-faithed, fair enough) argument that such a connection exists is IMHO rather unfair (6 months?), a wrong tool (civility restriction would be better suited than a topic ban) and finally, a chilling effect (WP:BOOMERANG is all good, but there's a point we can seriously scare people from posting anything in AE if we are too ban-hammer happy on comments like that).

Fourth. If anything I said above would be considered a personal attack, or any related form of offence, and would lead 'someone' to consider banning or blocking me, please give me a chance to WP:REFACTOR any possibly offensive content before hammering me. TIA.

Fifth, and going back to the two main editors in this AE. I respect Icehwiz for inserting a valued POV into many related discussions, but I'd caution him to try to reduce his presence in AE. While it is my subjective view, perhaps, all AE incidents in the last two years two years I can recall reading seem to involve him. At the very least, this must be stressful. Perhaps a change of attitude of sorts may be healthy? I used find myself at AE quite often a decade ago or so. A change of my attitude to wiki and adoption of more friendly and forgiving attitude has, I think, worked out quite well for me. It is a good reminder to all that other editors here are generally also trying to help, and that a good way of settling our differences does not have to involve calling admins for help and receiving a few semi-random bans on occasion, but instead, remembering WP:AGF and trying to meet other editors half-way. See also my essays at User:Piotrus/Morsels of wikiwisdom for my thoughts on related issues. Reading those essays is probably going to be less stressful than reading this thread :> --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 01:37, 27 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comment to K.e.coffman note below: there is no denying that Tatzref is not neutral (and that's ok per WP:NPOV). I'd suggest however staying away from Godwin's law. In your comment about your google search you mention Stormfront, that could lead some readers to think there is a connection ("these audiences") between the respectable Polish-American NGO ([48]), and neo-Nazis. I don't think that's fair comparison. And I don't even see Stormfront in the hits I get after clicking your link, but I see that quote being used in NYBooks book review... Anyway, Tazref is not citing Paul these days. And if he cites reputable scholars that Paul cites as well, that's shouldn't be an issue - if he is using WP:RS, that's the end of the story. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 07:51, 27 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by K.e.coffman (Tatzref)

On the point of SPI, I don't think it would be helpful as it's unlikely that GCB and Tatzref are the same people. While there are similarities (both accounts promoted and defended KPK & Mark Paul), the editing styles are too different. Mutual connection to KPK is far more likely.

On the original report, I believe it has merit. I've participated in the related disputes and had a chance to observe Tatzref's editing from the beginning. This is not a content dispute, but an on-going and problematic pattern of advocacy-based editing and promotion of fringe theories.

His very first edit was to defend the fringe author Mark Paul: [49]. Paul, for example, subscribes to the idea that the Jews in the Soviet zone of occupation in 1939-41 were de facto Nazi collaborators; see here: Paul's thesis. Tatzref does as well: [50], bottom of diff: "Collaborating with one of these states in furthering these goals constituted de facto collaboration with the other."
I've asked Tatzref early on if he was connected to KPK; there was no response: KPK Toronto
Most of his editing was connected to KPK / Mark Paul. For example, he offered this defense of Mark Paul, ostensibly quoting Jan Karski's writing from WW2 (?): [51].
- Just now, I picked a random portion of this quote and googled it: "unjustly denigrating conditions in Poland before the war". Two of the results are KPK / Mark Paul, and one is Stormfront. This suggests what type of audiences find this discourse attractive.
In summer 2018, Tatzref stopped editing. He returned this winter for the AfD discussion on a hot-button topic: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Heaven for the nobles, Purgatory for the townspeople, Hell for the peasants, and Paradise for the Jews
Specific to the recent dispute, when I saw the material added by Tatzref [52], I found it likewise non-neutral and possibly cherry-picked. It was also oddly ref-bombed. So I was not surprised at all when Icewhiz posted a PDF from Mark Paul where the same narrative was being advanced. I share Icewhiz's suspicion that Tatzref is using Mark Paul as his actual source and just copy pasting citations in to create an impression of RS being used. He might have access to all these sources -- who knows? He did not say as he did not participate in the Talk page discussion: History of the Jews in Poland#Recent edits. Ref bombing also makes the material hard to verify.

In summary, I find Tatzref's editing to be contrary to Wikipedia's goals. His SPA contributions ([53]) advance fringe theories by using cherry-picked materials while promoting dubious publications. --K.e.coffman (talk) 05:29, 27 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Piotrus: Here's the Stormfront post in question: Polish-Jewish Relations in Soviet-Occupied Eastern Poland, 1939–1941: "Indeed very interesting what is brought to light here...", and a link to the KPK document: http://www.kpk.org/english/toronto/sovocc.pdf. I would like to know why a respectable org would publish a fringe author such as Mark Paul who asserts that Jews collaborated with the Nazis while under the Soviet rule, and why Tatzref believes the same: [54]. Perhaps he can explain his statement here.

@TonyBallioni, Sandstein, and GoldenRing: Please review my statement above. I don't believe that this is a content dispute, but a promotion of fringe POV. K.e.coffman (talk) 18:44, 27 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by My very best wishes

Simply, as a matter of procedures, what should happen here? First, this thread needs to be closed. Second, if it will be closed with the 6 month topic ban for VM, and VM disagrees, he needs to discuss this matter politely and reasonably with the blocking admin. If this does not result in anything, and VM disagree, he then should make an appeal on AE. My very best wishes (talk) 16:45, 27 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I also think the topic ban for VM was unjustified. I believe his recent comments on this noticeboard, including questioning the motivation of the filer, are a justifiable opinion and can be supported by diffs. One can disagree with VM, but this is not a valid reason for a 6 month topic ban from all EE subjects. My very best wishes (talk) 19:37, 28 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Nishidani

Why shouldn’t an article that deals with the history of Jews in Poland not mention a major pogrom simply because it was perpetrated by Jews on other Jews? This is not an article about anti-Jewish violence perpetrated by non-Jews.

Tatzref. Icewhiz was quite correct in arguing that, having read the sources, you omitted that the Alfonse pimp pogrom was a Jew on Jew matter. A pogrom, we all assume, is almost invariably an inter-ethnic form of violence, and omitting this crucial fact of its 'infra-ethnic' character, you left the impression Jews may have been attacking (Catholic) Poles, whatever your intent. On the other hand, Icewhiz had a simple option, rather than deleting this apposite datum: merely tweaking it to clarify it was an infra-Jewish outbreak of violence (and probably impelled by a desire to rid their community of practices which played into the hands of anti-Semites). It looks as though, rather than carefully assaying and reporting the facts neutrally, both of you are slanting the data, by different forms of omission.Nishidani (talk) 21:03, 28 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by MyMoloboaccount

While I am not involved in this particular dispute I am know about this event and can state with 100% certainity that one of the claims by Icewhiz is wrong according to scholarly sources. According to Icewhiz in point 10 “The “pimp pogrom” text misrepresents the sources it cites. Sources are clear this is inner-Jewish violence, while the text suggests possibly otherwise" The point raised by Icewhiz about this being inter-Jewish conflict is definitely wrong. All the scholarly source I read on this subject write that while it started as conflict between Jewish groups it later involved Polish workers and impoverished members of the society.There is also an additional layer to this as from what I remember in later stage of the violence converts to Catholicism from Judaism were targeted by Jewish rioters-I will have to dig the sources aboutthis particular part of the event but there was definitely a lot of this in the press published from what I recall. In any case Icewhiz now has admitted that it wasn't solely inter-Jewish violence according to the sources on the discussion page for the articlePolish (non-Jewish participation on either side) - seems to be present in some of the Polish sources, I don't quite see it elsewhere., so I believe it would be appropriate for him to remove this particular accussation and point against Tatzref.

Lastly the ban on VM seems terribly excessive and unproductive-really not in line with anything VM said here.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 22:16, 28 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Result concerning Tatzref

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

I’ve full protected History of the Jews in Poland for two weeks as an AE action given the disruption and multi-party content dispute of the last few days. No opinion on if further action is needed here, and will let others decide. TonyBallioni (talk) 22:51, 25 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
- @Roscelese and Volunteer Marek: if either of you file an SPI and request CU feel free to ping me and I can assess to see if CU is needed. I'm not familiar with the users in question, so diffs directly comparing the users would be helpful. This isn't really relevant to the AE report, but since I was pinged and I'm somewhat familiar with the article's drama recently, I thought I'd respond to that unrelated point. TonyBallioni (talk) 06:14, 26 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Setting aside the main issue for a moment, I find Volunteer Marek's conduct here worthy of interest. They note that casting aspersions is prohibited, and that accusations must be backed by "actual diffs, not innuendo and bad faithed insinuations", and that if an editor "can't back up that attack, then he deserves a ban". I agree. But I intend to apply these principles to Volunteer Marek. In the same section, they write without providing evidence that "this is an obvious "payback report" for the fact that Icewhiz's partner in edit wars, Yanniv, recently got indef blocked", and accuse another editor of being part of a "tag team", among other instances of vitriol and confrontative statements that have at best a remote bearing on the diffs that are the subject of this enforcement request. This is inacceptable and disruptive conduct. I note that Volunteer Marek has a relatively long record of AE sanctions going back to 2011, both in the Eastern Europe and in the US politics topic area. This has got to stop. I am topic-banning Volunteer Marek for six months from anything related to Eastern Europe. I am leaving the thread open to allow discussion of the original request. Sandstein 21:48, 26 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
- Sandstein, six months for one sentence, in the relative free-speech space of ARE, that's a bit steep. More than a bit, perhaps. Drmies (talk) 04:54, 27 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  - The sanction isn't for one sentence, but for the whole of the statement above, in which Volunteer Marek treats Wikipedia as a battlegound. Wikipedia is not a forum for "free speech", but a collaborative encyclopedia project; and AE in particular is not some kind of speaker's corner, but an administrative board whose very function it is to prevent disruption of the project, so it's probably the very worst place for these kinds of antics. Sandstein 12:40, 27 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    - No, it's for one sentence (or possibly two). The rest of the statement is generally replying to the filing party's claims, many of which are indeed dubious. This is far too harsh. Re-think it please. Black Kite (talk) 14:53, 27 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
For similar reasons, I am also logging a warning to François Robere not to cast aspersions against others without convincing evidence. François Robere has fallen significantly short of the expected conduct of a Wikipedian by accusing another editor, who is not the subject of this request, and who is topic-banned and cannot reply here, of "ethnic prejudice and ethnically-motivated vandalism", and of violating "egregious violations of Policy and academic integrity". I am not proceeding to sanctions at this time because it appears that François Robere has no prior AE sanctions. Sandstein 22:00, 26 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
- Sandstein, if you don't have objections, I am prepared to block Frances Robere for a week under Eastern Europe AE. Accusations of racist vandalism in what is effectively a content dispute is extremely disruptive, and in my view merits a block on the first instance. If there had been previous AE sanctions, I would make it indef, but this type of behaviour is toxic and needs to stop. It also makes it more difficult to deal with the actual racists vandals we get all the time when people try to use it as a trump card at noticeboards and in disputes. TonyBallioni (talk) 22:14, 26 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  - No objections. This is an understandable approach. Sandstein 22:15, 26 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    - Blocked. Still no comment on the underlying request, because it involves so much getting into the weeds of the content that it honestly feels like something that needs to be dealt with on talk pages, though I do understand the POV pushing argument, so I'll leave that for others to decide. TonyBallioni (talk) 22:27, 26 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Getting back to the original complaint, as far as I can tell ~~the plagiarism claims are~~plagiarism claim 6 is just that Tatzref cited the same works as Paul, in the same order, in a similar citation style. While it's certainly possible that Tatzref copied the citations and changed the citation style slightly, I don't see anything wrong with that. There's nothing original about citing a work and it's perfectly natural to follow citations from one work (whether reliable or not) on to other reliable sources. Do we need inline citations for where a list of citations were found now? No.
That leaves a bad taste in the mouth for assessing the rest of the complaint. Icewhiz's points 2 and 3 are not comments on Tatzref at all but on Mark Paul. Points 6, 7 and 9 are the "plagiarism" I've described above. That leaves:

Point 4 - Tatzref has been asked repeatedly whether they have a COI and have consistently ignored the question (I think a similar case was discussed at AN or ANI recently but I can't turn it up on the spur of the moment).
Point 5 - Adding emphasis to Jewish trade in Christian slaves after repeated discussions which showed no consensus for it. This is not great, but it's at the mild end of things, IMO.
Point 8 - Not participating in a discussion of the text in dispute. Again, not great, but we're all volunteers.
Points 10 and 11 - Source misrepresentation. I've only started looking into this. On it's face, this is a content dispute and I'm not sure at this point it rises to the level of disruption, but as I say I've only just started looking into it.
Point 1 - The allegation that Tatzref is an SPA pushing Mark Paul ideas into wikipedia. I've only just started looking into this one, too. IMO this is the one all the rest turn on; if true, then the rest all starts to look like political POV-pushing. If not, the rest are valid content disputes.

Hopefully that saves whoever comes along next some time digging into it all. I'll keep looking at it but don't have heaps of time today. Anyone looking at this should bear in mind that this is an area of history that remains the subject of considerable controversy; as such, we should not necessarily expect to find consensus in reliable sources and so questions of what to include become fairly subtle questions of weight and editorial judgement on which editors can legitimately disagree without necessarily implying behavioural problems. I tend to think that Icewhiz has not made the case for sanctions here, and we should be wary of effectively silencing one side of a valid disagreement with sanctions. But it needs looking into further. GoldenRing (talk) 10:53, 27 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, with respect to the main request, I lean towards dismissing it with no action because I'm not able to untangle it from the content dispute from which it stems. The request itself is phrased as a content dispute, in terms of complaining about certain content edits or sources, but not making clear how these violate any applicable conduct policies. I'm not saying there aren't any conduct problems here - there may well be - but they would need to be much better presented. Sandstein 12:44, 27 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Note, on further review, it does seem that point 6 is valid - if Tatzref's text is not plagiarised from Paul, there are a lot of phrases that are co-incidentally the same. Icewhiz is right, Diannaa's input on the question of copying citation lists would be useful. GoldenRing (talk) 12:58, 27 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Copying lists is okay, unless there's a creative aspect or a value judgement. Subjective lists should not be copied verbatim. Lists such as Rolling Stone's 500 Greatest Albums of All Time or Forbes list of The World's 100 Most Powerful Women are examples of subjective lists that it's not okay to copy in their entirety. What this source is saying is that a copied citation list can be used as a clue that the prose in the document is also copied. This source says it's improper to copy a citation list, but if you read the accompanying prose, what they are saying is that it's lazy and wrong. It might be considered plagiarism, if the list is selective and a lot of thought has been put into it. This would be difficult to prove. — Diannaa 🍁 (talk) 14:17, 27 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, Diannaa, and my sincere apologies for hitting "rollback" instead of "thank" in the history list! GoldenRing (talk) 14:25, 27 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Becase there does not seem to be interest among admins in sanctioning Tatzref, I'm closing this thread with no action, but without prejudice, i.e., an admin who believes that action is warranted can still take it. Personally, the matter is too complicated and too much tied to content disputes for me to feel comfortable taking action; AE is beetter suited to relatively straightforward cases of misconduct. As regards my sanction of Volunteer Marek, I note that there is disagreement with it, but the proper venue to resolve it would be an appeal by Volunteer Marek. Sandstein 07:42, 1 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Volunteer Marek: If, as appears obvious, you disagree with Sandstein's enforcement action, you may file an appeal on this AE page and it will be reviewed by other admins. Purely as a matter of formatting and avoiding confusion, and not out of a desire to create more bureaucracy or "paperwork," I think that discussion needs to happen in a new AE appeal thread rather than this one. Newyorkbrad (talk) 15:58, 27 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
- Does that mean you don't think other uninvolved admins ought to opine about VM's topic ban here, Newyorkbrad? I don't entirely agree. I think the ban was over the top, and should be rescinded. Brad, you're in essence asking VM to write up a whole thing, "purely as a matter of formatting and avoiding confusion", and I don't think that's entirely fair. I know most people aren't as slow writers as I am, but for me it would take something like half a day to write up a persuasive appeal in a proper way, with diffs and so on. I think Sandstein should withdraw the ban before we close here. Why would that lead to "confusion"? Bishonen | talk 21:41, 28 February 2019 (UTC).[reply]
  - @Bishonen: Obviously Sandstein should withdraw the sanction against VM, which has garnered no support and deserves none, but I am pessimistic that he will do so. If there’s a sufficient consensus right here to overrule it here, fine. It was unjustified, and at a minimum was substantially overbroad, and if this is the right place I vote to reverse it. I can’t imagine an appeal from it would take long to write, either. Newyorkbrad (talk) 23:35, 28 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    - It's a ludicrous sanction and it needs fixing, and it shouldn't be down to VM to appeal it either. Black Kite (talk) 23:38, 28 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
      - A consensus to reverse appears to be emerging. Newyorkbrad (talk) 23:39, 28 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

GiantSnowman

Request concerning GiantSnowman

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: UninvitedCompany (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 00:30, 1 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested: GiantSnowman (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced: Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/GiantSnowman#GiantSnowman admonished and placed under review - to wit, "[GiantSnowman] may not block an editor without first using at least three escalating messages and template warnings"

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

Reviewing the contributions for 124.62.79.115, it does not appear to me that this user is engaging only in vandalism. There appears to be a dispute regarding content and sourcing, and an allegation that some material added is a hoax. There has been little dialogue with this user and it is unclear to me whether the underlying problem is that the user is contributing inaccurate material in good faith, is contributing accurate material that lacks sources, or is deliberately perpetrating a hoax. In any case, this is not a vandalism-only account, and the three esacalating warnings required by the arbitration remedy were not placed.

Reviewing the contributions for 5.151.172.213, this user is not engaging in vandalism. Rather, this user is also in a content dispute with GiantSnowman. The talk page for this user is blank, and I cannot find any explanation for the block beyond that in the block log. I surmise that the basis for the block is that the IP may be a sock of Woking123 (talk · contribs) (see Category:Suspected_Wikipedia_sockpuppets_of_Woking123 but note that GiantSnowman is the only contributor), but the evidence for this is far from conclusive, and the IP may well be another editor at a nearby location who shares (unsurprisingly) the same geographically-limited interests. In any event, this block is not based on vandalism, and the three escalating warnings required by the arbitration remedy were not placed.

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

None

If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)

N/A, not a discretionary sanctions request

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

For background, the block of 5.151.172.213 appears to be a continuation of a dispute over sourcing that started in 2016. See User talk:Woking123. GiantSnowman placed escalating blocks related to the sourcing dispute, and Woking123 evaded them, and has been indefblocked for socking. The problem however is that the initial blocks that led to the socking do not appear to be well-justified by blocking policy, both because the additions of unsourced material appear to be minor and in good faith, and because the articles involved are ones where GiantSnowman is (and was) a primary editor.

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:GiantSnowman&diff=885589888&oldid=885540349

Discussion concerning GiantSnowman

Statement by Legacypac

My prior research suggested that GiantSnowman blocks users as socks of this one editor who made but a handful of edits several years ago. Users and IPs are blocked whenever anyone goes near a group of pages. There is no SPI case for this, just an accumulation of blocked IPs and registered users. I came to the conclusion there is but the weakest of connection between these users and he was abusing the block button. It seems highly unlikely that the alleged sockmaster would pursue such a minor issue for years on a few football pages. A clearcut ignoring of his restriction, doing exactly what lead to the whole ArbComm case.

@Tony-he has a block button as an Admin. He used it to block an alleged sock of a user he as blocked alleged socks of before. If this is really the same user he violated his restrictions with a consecutive block. If it is not a sock he violated his restrictions with a warningless block. That it took several days to notice should not mean he will not block someone else on the same basis tomorrow. Only a block of GS or removal of his block button will stop the ongoing disruption by a rouge admin. Legacypac (talk) 04:48, 1 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

If blocking an Admin does not stop him from imposing blocks that is just wrong. If after a multi week ArbComm case we learn the authorized sanctions are unworkable that is just wrong. GS has no problem blocking random editors for very little or no reason. The incredible leeway being extended here to let him keep a clean block log is NOT how non-Admins are treated. We are blocked first, questions maybe asked later. Legacypac (talk) 12:53, 1 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@User:Jayron32 your position goes exactly against the ArbComm discussion here [55]. If you don't like the decision take it up with ArbComm but if you refuse to follow the decision you may face your own ArbComm case. The blocking of alleged Socks of his favourite punching bag was what lead to these restrictions, yet he went right back to blocking the alleged same user again. This is a bright line violation and the mandated remedy is a block. Legacypac (talk) 17:12, 2 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Jayron32 please don't be a troll. Address the substance of my point - that your interpretation of restriction is wrong or admit you did not read the restriction. Legacypac (talk) 07:01, 4 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Tgeorgescu

I have no opinion upon whether the blocks are right. Anyway, if GS suspects sockpuppetry and the users engage in WP:TE or vandalism, I'd say block them on the spot, don't wait till they produce more damage. Tgeorgescu (talk) 04:47, 1 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Gricehead

As the person requesting the block of 124.62.79.115 on WT:Footy, to give background this is a user who adds literally hundreds of invented football players and managers to historic squads, going back to 2016 across at least four static (or at least long term fixed) IP addresses. They occasionally add an innocuous edit to a football space which isn't vandalism, but well over 95% of their edits are of the type mentioned. They have often gone unnoticed for long periods due to the difficulty of disproving a negative on historic articles, but eventually they slip up and add one of their inventions as a 24th player in a 23 man international squad, causing the light to shine on their other efforts more closely. Never have any of the four IPs we've collectively discovered interacted on their talk pages. At least one of them (49.143.151.98) had escalating blocks placed and returned each time but the last, year long, block to continue the disruptive editing. By this time they'd moved to a new IP address. This was a good block. Gricehead (talk) 10:53, 1 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by WBG

Good blocks per BK and Floq. Close this without letting this to go into the more heat than light territory. ∯WBG^converse 11:50, 1 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Sandstein, But blocking GiantSnowman would not prevent them from using the block function.--Nope, it would. GS (once blocked) can't unblock himself and thus can't block anybody else except the one who blocked him at the first place. ∯WBG^converse 11:56, 1 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by GiantSnowman

I'm always happy for my blocks to be reviewed. One was clear vandalism (as confirmed by Gricehead, and I understand the IP has now been re-blocked by Floquenbeam for the same behaviour) and the other is a clear sock per DUCK and Black Kite's comments. I'm currently on holiday so not really online over the next few days...read into the timing of this report what you will (yes, I will assume bad faith here, thanks, given that it would have been nice if Uninvited Company could perhaps have spoken to me first about the two blocks in question rather than running straight here trying to get me in trouble (which is what it appears like)). Giant Snowman 11:59, 1 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Fram

No comment on the vandal block, it seems from comments from others that this was an obvious vandal. About the Woking sock block: for starters, it is a clear sock, no doubt there. Whether the block of an obvious sock is within the letter or the spirit of the ArbCom restriction doesn't really concern me either. For this specific sockmaster though, I would urge GS to try a different approach. When I looked in the history of this sock, it was very unclear what their indef bvlockworthy behaviour was. Every edit by these socks I have looked at (socks from October 2018 or thereabouts, not earlier ones) looked to be perfectly factual. So I would urge GS, the next time he spots one of these socks, to approach it on the talk page and start a discussion about a way forward for both of them (e.g. pick one named account, no more IPs, and no more blocking), as the current situation is a huge timesink for both without any benefit for enwiki. Of course, if I'm missing stuff and the sock is actually inserting sneaky vandalism, copyvio's, ... then unblocking is not an option. Fram (talk) 13:50, 1 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Sandstein, if you are just expressing your opinion, no problem of course. But if you are stating your intention, please don't. Give them if necessary a warning that sock blocks con't fall under the "vandalism" exception, ask them to give better summaries (as NYB does), propose ways forward (like I did), but blocking now seems extremely harsh for this. Fram (talk) 15:44, 1 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Berean Hunter

It is ironic that GS has been brought here for issues related to not communicating. Can someone show me where he was asked about this? The remedy requires GS to "respond promptly and civilly to queries about their Wikipedia-related conduct and administrative actions and to justify them when needed", but he wasn't given a chance. That bit of fact-finding would have helped to forego this whole report because the underlying incidents have since gained the endorsements of uninvolved admins that one issue is about a vandal, and the other as an IP sock. There is nothing actionable here. Oppose taking any action against GS.

Since the committee does not make policy, I doubt that it was their intention when writing the remedy to override existing policies concerning banned editors and sockpuppets. I don't believe it was their intention to tie GS's hands by making him adhere to some fictitious system of escalated templates that is out of process. You don't warn banned editors or sockpuppets, you just block them. Those that are asserting that he should be placing warnings are incorrect. The language of the remedy may need to be corrected at ARCA to more accurately reflect the committee's intentions and help avoid confusion.
— Berean Hunter (talk) 16:44, 1 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by isaacl

Regarding the applicability of enforcing remedies from an arbitration case: as described in arbitration case 2015-10, under the remedy "Common sense in enforcement", administrators should not second-guess the remedies and corresponding enforcement actions issued by the arbitration committee. Thus on principle, I don't see staleness as a reason not to enforce a violation of terms by which an editor is under review. However, the same remedy in 2015-10 also states Except for the cases when the Arbitration Committee has predetermined the set of escalating sanctions to be imposed for violations of a final decision, the severity of the sanction imposed should be commensurate with all circumstances of the case at hand, including the seriousness of the violation and the possible recidivism of the editor in question. As Floquenbeam stated, given that the circumstances is an obviously correct block, enacting a block on GiantSnowman does not seem to be suitable reaction. isaacl (talk) 21:06, 1 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I also agree that it is not reasonable to expect warnings to be given to obvious socks, as the standard response is revert, block, and ignore. isaacl (talk) 21:18, 1 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Levivich

At Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/GiantSnowman/Proposed decision#GiantSnowman admonished and placed under review, the arbitrators have a discussion that begins with GS is asking if the wording could include an exception to the edits of known sock puppets. Leviv ich 17:03, 2 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Result concerning GiantSnowman

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

What are we supposed to do here? I know the remedy says to report to AE, but we can't exactly block someone for using the block function, because per the blocking policy, it's only supposed to be used to prevent ongoing disruption to the project, which clearly isn't the case here. There is no authority to topic ban in the remedy, and regardless, a topic ban from blocking may as well be a desysop. The most I think we can do within policy here is log a warning to follow his sanctions and note that editors are free to take him to ARCA for future violations. TonyBallioni (talk) 03:00, 1 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Block for a week, then longer if it happens again? I don't understand this question. only supposed to be used to prevent ongoing disruption to the project, which clearly isn't the case here – Sure – if these blocks are nobrainer obvious vandalism, then there's no ongoing disruption – but there's also no arbitration remedy violation, so obviously don't block anyway! ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 04:13, 1 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
You missed my point with the quote you cited: the only enforcement provision the case had was blocks (the default enforcement provisions). Per WP:BLOCKNOTPUNITIVE, we can't block GS just to punish him for violating a sanction unless we think that block will serve some purpose in preventing future disruption, which I don't think there is any evidence of. If GS was on a blocking spree, then yeah, blocking him would prevent something.
What has been raised here is two unclear-if-violations blocks, one two weeks ago and one 48 hours ago. The one two weeks ago is stale, so a block for that would be nothing put a punishment. The one 48 hours ago for block evasion, well, that's more recent, but if that's all that can be found I'm not really seeing an argument for a block even if it's a violation. TonyBallioni (talk) 04:40, 1 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Further clarity here: I think if this was a timely report (it’s not) and there appeared to be an ongoing threat of bad blocks/violations of the remedy, we could theoretically have a preventive block here. What we have now, is two blocks, one that this report caused an admin to reblock over that was two weeks old. Another that is almost three days old and may be valid. We also have a report that was filed when the person who enforcement against is on vacation, hasn’t made a block since the last one, and is going to be away for at least 2 more days. In these specific circumstances even if there was a violation, my understanding of the facts and reading of the blocking policy would not consider a block to be preventative, even though it may be in the future. TonyBallioni (talk) 06:29, 1 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think I missed your point! The block would, ostensibly, serve the purpose of preventing GS from blocking anyone in the future. The things you're saying are true about a lot of AE blocks – admins will hand out really long blocks for things that in and of themselves are not disruptive, but do violate arbcom remedies (hopefully because they are part of a larger pattern of disruption). They're done to prevent further violations of arbcom remedies, i.e. disruption. I can not fathom why this case would be any different. Is it because GS could self-unblock and then go right on blocking others? That isn't what you're talking about, is it?? (That wouldn't end will for GS, obviously.) ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 17:17, 1 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
We would not block in similar circumstances if the editor was a non-admin. It is both the lateness of this report, and its lack of actions to act upon that are the issue. One possible hyper-technical violation of the remedy that was impossible to comply with anyway, plus the editor in question is on vacation and was never talked to? A block here would achieve nothing. TonyBallioni (talk) 17:31, 1 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
A+ ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 17:34, 1 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I have not reviewed the other editor yet, but regarding User talk:124.62.79.115, they were definitely vandalizing, and have been for a month. It took me a little research to verify, and only after all that work, I stumbled across this: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football/Archive 122#South Korean Inventing IP Editor back. I understand there might be some bad blood here, but UC could have asked GS about this on his talk page... Anyway, the wording of GS's sanction exempts him from having to make 3 escalating warnings for obvious vandalism. The IP was at it again today; I've blocked for 3 months. No comment either way on the other editor yet. Maybe tomorrow.

p.s. If there is a problem with the other editor, Tony's still got a really good point above.... --Floquenbeam (talk) 03:34, 1 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comment There's little doubt that the second editor, 5.151.172.213, is an IP sock of indefblocked user Woking123, both through IP location and behaviour. Uninvited Company claims that "the IP may well be another editor at a nearby location who shares (unsurprisingly) the same geographically-limited interests" - which is possible, except that the IP (and the others) are 100 miles from Woking. Anyway, assuming this is a sock of a blocked user, how is GS supposed to give them three escalating warnings? We don't even have templates for that because obvious socks just get blocked... Black Kite (talk) 10:16, 1 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
- @Sandstein: Blocked admins can't block anyone. They used to be able to unblock themselves (in the case of accidentally blocking themselves, which I've done), but they can't any more. Black Kite (talk) 15:11, 1 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
My reading of the remedies is that AE has jurisdiction over this issue. But I would decline to exercise this jurisdiction. The only authorized enforcement action is a block. But blocking GiantSnowman would not prevent them from using the block function. Even if, therefore, we were to conclude that GiantSnowman violated the restrictions applying to them, the sanction we could impose would be ineffective in preventing further violations of the restrictions. Therefore, if action is necessary here, it would need to be taken by the Arbitration Committee. Sandstein 11:42, 1 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

~~@Winged Blades of Godric: Is that so? Is there documentation establishing that blocked users are technically unable to block others? Sandstein 12:09, 1 March 2019 (UTC)~~[reply]

Thanks for the info. A block would therefore be an effective remedy. That being the case, I am of the view that the request has merit. The applicable restriction reads: "[GiantSnowman] may not block an editor without first using at least three escalating messages and template warnings". GiantSnowman does not contest that they have violated this restriction in the cases reported here by not leaving any prior messages for the IP users at issue. Even assuming that the "clear vandalism" exception applies to the first case, the second case is allegedly a case of socking, which is not vandalism, and the exception therefore does not apply. I would therefore block GiantSnowman for a week in enforcement of the restrictions. Sandstein 15:29, 1 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I'd strongly suggest that you don't. There isn't any consensus for it, and as pointed out, an admin can't issue escalating warnings to an obvious sock, because the warning templates don't exist - socks are simply blocked. Black Kite (talk) 15:53, 1 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Agree with BK: I very strongly disapprove of this distinction between "obvious sock" and "obvious vandal" being used to block GS for a week for a first offense. ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 17:22, 1 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I join in agreeing that there would be no consensus for a block here and that should definitely not happen. Newyorkbrad (talk) 21:11, 1 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Well, yes, of course, it would not ordinarily make sense to leave three escalating messages to a suspected sock to tell them to stop socking. But it's not up to us to decide whether the restrictions make sense. They say that there must be three escalating messages before a block (obvious vandals excepted). So GiantSnowman has to leave three rather pointless messages to the sock, or ask somebody else to block it. If that restriction makes no sense, then ArbCom should change it. To me, this illustrates that this sort of micro-managing restriction is almost always a bad idea, but that's not up to me to decide. Sandstein 22:41, 1 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Of course it is. As a volunteer, no one is twisting your arm to block and where it is a question between the letter of the policy and the spirit of it, one should align with the spirit of it. You can always defer to the members of the committee on this for better clarification. Then you would be sure to not be mistaken.
— Berean Hunter (talk) 17:36, 2 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I want to disagree with various admins above. The arbitration committee have restricted GiantSnowman's use of the blocking function and asked us to enforce that restriction with blocks. It is, I think, generally accepted that blocks placed at AE can be considerably after the fact and that the deterrent effect of such blocks is how they satisfy WP:PUNITIVE (the majority of blocks for 1RR violations fall into this category, for instance). It seems bizarre to me to argue, as Sandstein has above, that although the arbitration committee has placed restrictions and authorised blocks to enforce them, it would not ever be possible for AE admins to place blocks.
Secondly, I think he has violated his restriction here. The vandalism block I'm happy to let lie; it's obvious vandalism if you know about the Korean football vandal and not obvious vandalism if you don't know about them. But the sock-puppetry block is a clear violation of the restrictions. There is no exception in the restrictions for sock-puppetry. He is required to either give the appropriate warnings (they need not be templated) or to consult another admin regarding the block. Yes, this is onerous and bureaucratic, but thems the breaks when you're found to have abused the block button.
Thirdly, I think we need to be very careful here not to be seen to be treating admins brought to AE differently to non-admins; some of the responses here so far seem to me to be looking for reasons to avoid action and we oughtn't to do that. That said, I don't think the violation is so egregious that we should block on a first offense, just as we probably wouldn't block or ban an editor for a single instance of mild TE.
Given all of the above, I'd close this with a logged warning to carefully observe his restrictions. GoldenRing (talk) 12:40, 1 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
- @GoldenRing: two points. First if this report had been filed against a non-admins violating a TBAN, it would have been laughed out of AE for being stale and UninvitedCompany would be looking at a logged warning not to waste time and to stop going through the weeds of another editor’s contributions with the intent of finding violations (which given the timing, is clearly what happened here.) Taking any action on this report would be treating GS different because he was an admin.
  Second, the deference argument is nonsense (sorry for being so blunt). It’s commonly used in an attempt to get around the prohibition on punitive blocks, but if the only purpose of a block is to deter, it is just punishing someone. There needs to be some form of likely future disruption it is preventing, and in this case there clearly is none. TonyBallioni (talk) 16:35, 1 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  I agree with your first point; I can not figure out what UninvitedCompany was trying to accomplish here. These super-trivial reports of behavior that is obviously not an actual problem seem like a huge waste of time for everyone involved. Save it for if/when GS issues bad blocks. ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 17:32, 1 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure I find either of these blocks to be substantive violations; they seem, (to borrow a phrase from basketball) ticky-tack at best. The 5. was a block for socking/block evasion. We don't typically warn for those. And there seems to be agreement that his assessment of who it was is correct. The 124. is more problematic, in that it does appear that he did not warn three times, however it seems that the opportunity to sanction specifically for that has passed. I am in agreement that issuing a block 2 weeks later for any singular, non-continuing action is not useful. I would be comfortable sanctioning with a logged warning and a clear message that if GS continues to issue vandalism blocks without warnings, we can revisit this with an eye on further sanctions. --Jayron32 13:16, 1 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
- Jayron, the way I read the wording of the restriction is that 3 warnings are required for anything that is not clear vandalism. If there's something to sanction for the socking block, OK (haven't looked yet). But I would oppose any kind of logged warning for the vandalism block, as I do not think he violated the restriction. It says "GiantSnowman is placed under review indefinitely; during the review, with the exception of obvious vandalism, he is subject to the following restrictions..." (emphasis mine). Plus, stepping back and doing a reality check, it would be weird sanctioning him for a 100% obviously correct block; the issue from the ArbCom case was the mass rollback and blocks that weren't obviously correct. --Floquenbeam (talk) 13:25, 1 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  - Just to be clear, I think a logged warning is the most severe sanction I would be comfortable with. The least severe sanction I would be comfortable with is "nothing at all". That is, I'm equally OK with doing absolutely nothing. Sorry I wasn't more clear. My only point was that, given that these violations (if there were any at all) were so minor, there should be no substantive sanction against GS, at most a warning. But if the finding here is that it isn't even worth logging a warning, that's cool too. The cries for his head because two weeks ago he blocked someone in an entirely justified manner seems histrionic. --Jayron 32 17:26, 1 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
No action is warranted. GiantSnowman should use slightly more descriptive block-reason summaries (e.g. “inserting false statistics in multiple articles” or “obvious sock of vandal XYZ”) to make the reasons for these sorts of blocks more explicit. Newyorkbrad (talk) 13:59, 1 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, good idea - and same goes to @Fram:, thanks for the suggestions. Giant Snowman 14:46, 1 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

My take on this from being on arb com at the time, was that the blocking of obvious socks was not intended to be an exception. The only exception was obvious vandalism, which includes " (such as page content being replaced by obscenities) or obvious violations of the policy about biographies of living persons. " (fromWP:BLOCKING POLICY). It was my impression that we meant what we said. DGG ( talk ) 04:46, 2 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
- My take was that as with any remedy, it should be interpreted and enforced in a way that addresses problems rather than creates them. Newyorkbrad (talk) 17:07, 2 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

That was the reason behind our use of "broadly interpreted"-- to avoid creating problems about what did or did not fit under the remedy. It seems that it did not work--the argumentation just shifted to the exact boundaries of "broadly" The creativity of those on arb com is no match for the deviousness of the community. DGG ( talk ) 20:24, 2 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I’m not sure “deviousness” is the right word there. Newyorkbrad (talk) 14:59, 3 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Legacypac: Did you just say you'll file an ARBCOM case against me unless I block GS? Please do that. I need I good laugh. --Jayron 32 05:51, 4 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Legacypac:: I'm not trolling. When you said "you may face your own ArbComm case" I thought you meant "you may face your own ArbComm case". If you did not mean that, you should not have said it. As to the rest of your statement, I don't believe that I am wrong. I stand by everything I have said to this point. --Jayron 32 14:24, 4 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Volunteer Marek

The sanction is overturned by a clear consensus of the uninvolved administrators commenting. GoldenRing (talk) 16:12, 4 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action. To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED). Appealing user Volunteer Marek (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – Volunteer Marek (talk) 07:33, 3 March 2019 (UTC)[reply] Sanction being appealed "Topic ban reduced to one month in duration, beginning as of this date" [56] Administrator imposing the sanction Sandstein (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) Notification of that administrator The appealing editor is asked to notify the administrator who made the enforcement action of this appeal, and then to replace this text with a diff of that notification. The appeal may not be processed otherwise. If a block is appealed, the editor moving the appeal to this board should make the notification. Statement by Volunteer Marek In this recent WP:AE request concerning another editor I made a couple statements concerning the motivation of the original poster (Icewhiz) and their reasons for filing their request. On the basis of my statements about the original poster, Sandstein issued a 6-month topic ban from Eastern European topics, although he also claimed that my comments "have at best a remote bearing on the diffs that are the subject of this enforcement request". This part of the rationale was demonstrably false, as almost all of my comment addressed substance of the request (my points were even numbered to correspond to the filer's points). This was noted by other administrators (User:Drmies, User:Black Kite) who responded to Sandstein: "six months for one sentence, in the relative free-speech space of AE" No, it's for one sentence (or possibly two). The rest of the statement is generally replying to the filing party's claims, many of which are indeed dubious. This is far too harsh. At that AE request, Sandstein did not respond to my explanation. Other admin also disagreed vehemently with Sandstein's actions. User:Bishonen said "I think the ban was over the top, and should be rescinded". Additionally she states that the ban should've been overturned in the WP:AE request itself, as there was consensus for its removal, and that having me file an appeal would be unfair to me, since the ban was obviously undeserved in the first place (yet, here I am). User:Newyorkbrad said "Obviously Sandstein should withdraw the sanction against VM, which has garnered no support and deserves none". Note that Newyorkbrad specifically says "withdraw" and notes the strong WP:CONSENSUS for Sandstein's actions "If there’s a sufficient consensus right here to overrule it here, fine." (yet, here I am) User:Black Kite added that "(the ban is) a ludicrous sanction and it needs fixing, and it shouldn't be down to VM to appeal it either. " again noting that there shouldn't even be a need for an appeal (yet, here I am) Then at 23:39, February 28 Newyorkbrad stated: A consensus to reverse (the topic ban on me) appears to be emerging However, without any response to the other admins, Sandstein nonetheless closed the AE report with the topic ban still in place, less than 8 hours after Newyorkbrad's last comment. My first reason for appealing the ban is then simply that Sandstein's action was against clear WP:CONSENSUS and he did not provide a sufficient rationale for it. I understand that since the area is under discretionary sanctions, a unilateral action such as this, strictly speaking is not against policy. Just because you can do something does not mean you should. If this was a disagreement between Sandstein and one other administrator, then yeah, sure. But here we have FOUR administrators explicitly and strongly opposing Sandstein, and NONE supporting him. Yet, he went ahead and did it regardless, ignoring the input of others. If this was article space and someone acted in this manner, then it'd be THEM who'd be looking at a sanction. As a result I DID ask Sandstein on his talk page to rescind the topic ban [57] per #1 here. Sandstein responded with a "have you stopped beating your wife" kind of question to me, which was worded in a way that no matter how I answered, I would be admitting to having done something bad. I responded. Sandstein replied that he was "not entirely convinced" and that "you do not convince me that you understand why I considered it necessary to impose the sanction". I decided to be entirely truthful in my appeal, and rather than pretending falsely that I did understand, I explicitly stated that I did NOT in fact understand why it was necessary. Of course, as exemplified by the four admins discussed above, I wasn't the only one. It seems that NOBODY but Sandstein understood why it was necessary. In the end however, Sandstein magnanimously reduced the topic ban he imposed on me against consensus to one month rather than six. I sincerely thank him for that. He also generously told me that I was free to appeal the reduced topic ban. Thanks for that as well. So here I am. Here is the bottom line, and I'm going to be honest. I've been around long enough to know that the way to get a sanction removed is to grovel before administrator power and hope for the best in the ensuing Struggle session. I can't do that. I disagree with the topic ban and I see no reason for it. Obviously I am not the only one, since the topic ban was imposed against strong consensus from FOUR other admins. I do believe that the majority of my original comment was non-problematic and specifically addressed the issues raised in the WP:AE report. However, it is true that the two sentences directed at Icewhiz's motivations, and my description of him, Francois Robere and Yanniv as a "tag team" were inappropriate and I should not have made them. If given a chance I would have struck them or removed them. I made a mistake. But so did Sandstein in imposing the topic ban. I am here admitting that I made a mistake. Since the crux of the issue was my comments at an WP:AE request from Icewhiz, I can totally understand if the one month ban is converted into a restriction on me commenting on Icewhiz's WP:AE requests. Most likely there will be plenty of opportunities for me to violate such a restriction in the future and I promise not to do so. Such a restriction would be both fair and relevant to the nature of the original violation. Of course, I'd rather not be sanctioned at all. So if possible, I will simply promise to refrain from commenting on other editors' motivations when they file requests at the drama boards, and I will not describe groups of other editors as "tag teams". I'd appreciate it if the discussion of this appeal stayed relevant to the nature of the appeal rather than digress into various red-herrings (since that's kind of how we got here in the first place) Thanks.Volunteer Marek (talk) 07:33, 3 March 2019 (UTC)[reply] Re:Sandstein - as already noted, yes, discretionary sanctions can be imposed without consensus. That does not mean they should be, especially if consensus is overwhelmingly against them. "I do it just because I can" is a terrible rationale for, well, anything, Sandstein. And no, the appeal is not based solely on the fact the sanction was against consensus. The appeal is based on the fact that the sanction was INAPPROPRIATE and did not provide adequate justification as reflected by consensus judgement Regarding Icewhiz's statement. I'm going to keep this to the minimum. Icewhiz, if you truly feel those diffs are "bad" then go ahead and open up a separate WP:AE request. NONE of them concern this appeal. To quote Sandstein, they "have at best a remote bearing on the subject of this appeal request". I'll be more than happy to respond to them in the most appropriate and deserving manner if you do choose to open up a separate WP:AE request.Volunteer Marek (talk) 08:50, 3 March 2019 (UTC)[reply] (if any admins DOES wish me to reply to Icewhiz's aspersions here I will be more than happy to do so - for now I just wish to note that "the editor" whom Icewhiz is citing approvingly in #4 of his comment [58] is User:Kaiser von Europa who was indefinetly banned by User:Salvio giuliano for making violent threats and pushing neo-Nazi POV back in 2013 [59]) Volunteer Marek (talk) 08:52, 3 March 2019 (UTC)[reply] Icewhiz accuses me of making "aspersions" by saying the anon-IP is a sock puppet of a banned user and that there is no SPI case for this user. Yeah, there's no SPI case for that user because they were making threats and WP:OUTING and stuff had to get oversighted and the SPI would've just played into that. As the block summary states, you can email Salvio for the relevant info. There's no doubt that this is KvE. WHY are we talking about this on an appeal that has NOTHING to do with that diff or user?????? Volunteer Marek (talk) 09:31, 3 March 2019 (UTC)[reply] (and actually THERE IS INDEED support in a KvE SPI archive [60] for the fact that the user in question is KvE, contrary to Icewhiz's assertion. Click any of the blocked IPs in the SPI. Like this one. Click geolocate. Then click on the contributions of the anon account Icewhiz is citing approvingly [61]. Compare the nature of the edits. If there's still any doubt, click geolocate. It's him. Statement by Sandstein This appeal should be declined. I had written a longer comment, but then my browser tab crashed. I'll therefore only note that the only argument made as grounds for the appeal is that my topic ban in response to Volunteer Marek's AE statement was "against consensus". This is an inapplicable argument because discretionary sanctions do not depend on consensus, but are explicitly a matter of an individual administrator's discretion. For the rest, I'll refer to my conversation with Volunteer Marek (permalink) on my talk page. Sandstein 08:19, 3 March 2019 (UTC)[reply] Vanamonde93: I disagree that waiting for consensus would have been appropriate. Discretionary sanctions are intentionally not based on consensus, because if that were the case, vested contributors would be effectively immune from sanctions as long as - as often happens - they are quick enough to summon their friends to weigh in on an AE thread. I therefore take special care to not treat AE as though it were in any way a consensus-based forum, in order to not let Wikipedia's consensus culture (which is otherwise essential to our project) take over this board. Moreover, the sanction appealed here is a one-month ban, not the six-month one that others disagreed with, which makes relying on that disagreement in this appeal questionable. Additionally, the ban is justified on the merits. Volunteer Marek is one of several editors (some of which I already sanctioned) who have been treating Wikipedia (including AE) as a battleground in order to attempt to win content disputes related to Poland and Polish Jews in World War II. This is not acceptable. Volunteer Marek's statement at AE for which they were sanctioned reflects this battleground mentality. Because Volunteer Marek's appeal does not reflect an understanding that it is this battleground mentality, in addition to the specific aspersions cast on others, that led to the ban, I believe it remains necessary. Sandstein 17:29, 3 March 2019 (UTC)[reply] Statement by Icewhiz Concurrent to the AE, VM has made a number of sanctionable actions elsewhere which were more serious than his conduct at the AE. I believe presenting this evidence at the appeal is relevant, as filing this evidence in a separate AE request would be a re-discussion of the same issue: 16:19, 26 February 2019 - "You showing up to an article you've never edited before but which was a target of a now indef-banned user I had serious trouble with a few years back and whose sock puppet I reverted recently. Want to explain that one?" - WP:ASPERSIONS - alluding to some connection between myself and a sockpuppet. 15:46, 26 February 2019 restoration of WP:REDFLAG material challenged on sourcing - "During Nazi occupation Poles and Jews were targeted for extermination" - tagged with "fact\|date=August 2017". He then 15:46, 26 February 2019 remove the fact tag, stating " ref is right there". He did not participate in the discussion of this municipal funded source (beyond the non-argument of "And the source is reliable"). To add insult to injury - the cited (quite questionable) source - available here does not contain this REDFLAG material at least per my reading (checked each instance of a "zyd" inflection). Violates WP:V. At the AE - 05:59, 26 February 2019 VM admitted that "For the record, I have no access to Kopciowski either." - which is a shocking admission considering his 06:36, 24 February 2019 revert of material challenged on REDFLAG + source misrepresentation grounds. Nor has he participated on the talk page there. (for the record - Kopciowski was one of the sources I accessed prior to claiming misrepresentation). Violates WP:V and WP:AGF (of the challenge). 06:09, 26 February 2019 - rollback to a version from 5 March 2017. The material was challenged by an editor on 14:03, 27 July 2017. for "There is no evidenc for the passage, the outrageous comparing of Poles and Jews in the last sentence ist terrible". The WP:REDFLAG content in question is " as Nazi party was elected to power in Germany, repressions intensified, eventually both Poles and Jews were classified as subhuman and targeted for extermination". The cited source - [62] - is a webpage from the municipality (certainly not a RS for history) - and furthermore does not (per my reading) contain the REDFLAG content. VM did not explain his revert on the talk page nor even in his edit summary - an auto-generated edit summary for a very significant edit. Violates WP:V and WP:AGF (of the challenge). Editing Holocaust history requires careful use of good RSes. Alluding to sock-puppetry, not discussing ("And the source is reliable" not being beyond a mere semblance of a discussion - in the other 2 - no discussion at all), and inserting WP:REDFLAG material after it has been challenged (and without verification) is not careful editing. Icewhiz (talk) 08:25, 3 March 2019 (UTC)[reply] VM's assertion of socking above - diff - is not backed up by evidence (in any of the user pages or relevant SPI case (which has no finding of sockpuppetry at all)) - absent evidence, this is WP:ASPERSIONS in this appeal. Icewhiz (talk) 09:14, 3 March 2019 (UTC)[reply] The SPI from 2015 didn't find a match (it did result in the IPs from 2015 being deemed disruptive but no match vs. the named user). The 64-bit IP in question is geolocated to a location quite a bit away, and their edits (at least additions) all involve porting of factoids(e.g. people born) or weblinks that exist in the corresponding de.wiki entry of the towns. No evidence supporting the rather serious accusation towards the 64-bit IP has been presented - other than being a German editor interested in modern day Poland (former Prussia). Icewhiz (talk) 09:51, 3 March 2019 (UTC)[reply] Statement by Malik Shabazz Please forgive me, Volunteer Marek, if my comments kill your worthy appeal. What kind of "goods" does Icewhiz have on Sandstein that would cause an administrator to blindly take the side of an editor who is extremely disruptive in so many topic areas subject to sanctions? Sandstein topic-banned me from the Arab-Israeli conflict almost a year ago in an equally egregious exercise of egomania, despite a similarly strong consensus against the block.[63][64] Then he took Icewhiz at his word and "warned" me for a topic-ban "violation" that occurred before he imposed the ban.[65] Why does Sandstein act like he is corrupt and incompetent? Does anybody give a fuck, or will the only response be to block me for making an accurate personal attack? — MShabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 22:26, 3 March 2019 (UTC)[reply] Statement by Piotrus (I can't figure out if I am involved or uninvolved... :>) Anyway, keeping it short this time: first, I think we need to consider chilling effect for banning an editor for expressing views at AE or other dispute resolution. Sure, WP:NPA and such need to be observed, but for obvious reasons they have to be relaxed in such a setting. In all honesty, Sandstein seems to be very fond of sanctioning people for things that many other admins and editors would not. On one level, I do appreciate that WP:CIV and such are getting enforced, but this is too inconsistent, and has made me, at least, frankly afraid to even post in discussions where Sandstein is involved. I even consider it remotely possible he will topic ban me, now, for saying I am afraid of him. Is this the environment we want to create? second. CIV/NPA should be enforced more, but topic ban is not the correct remedy. If an editor has civility issues, a ban from talk pages, or a type of NPA-related 1RR ("if you make a personal attack, you will get a 24h ban") or such would work much better. From a purely technical perspective, IF VM indeed has a problem with NPA, CIV, or such, the topic ban he received DOES NOTHING to address the issue. A topic ban is a content-level remedy. Why content-ban an editor when no evidence of content-issues have been shown? It's like prescribing antibiotics for a viral infection. lastly. A year ago Sandstein topic banned a very prolific content creator, User:Poeticbent, author of ~1,000 DYKs and dozens of GAs, for half a year, for a minor transgression (out of the blue, it was Poeticbent's first serious sanction AFAIK). Poeticbent has since retired from the project, citing ungrateful attitude of the community. This should illustrate the danger of semi-random, poorly thought general restrictions. If someone has a problem with civility, or sources, or such, we can craft better, more targeted and specific restrictions than general blocks or bans. More surgical and less nuke-like restrictions should be the future of conflict-resolution at Wikipedia, not the other way around. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus\| reply here} 03:29, 4 March 2019 (UTC)[reply] Statement by (involved editor 2) Statement by (involved editor 2) Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by Volunteer Marek Vacate sanction--I utterly dislike this ridiculous cowboy approach to AE sanctioning. When there are many respected folks who are actively opposing your sanction, you ought not enforce it and I am very willing to say that Sandstein was actively gaming the system by taking advantage of the no-consensus clause. And, if I see repetition of such a worse sanction, I am very willing to drag him to ArbCom.∯WBG^converse 09:00, 3 March 2019 (UTC)[reply] If VM does toe the line, you (TP) need to put the evidence in a fresh AE thread and then deal with it, rather than support Sandstein's blatant gaming of AC/DS.∯WBG^converse 15:42, 3 March 2019 (UTC)[reply] I disagree with Sandstein on two points: I think it is wrong to sanction any user simply for his/her alleged "battleground mentality", unless such mentality is obvious for everyone. This is not case. We are not Thought Police. I think this is usually a bad practice to sanction someone who just came to comment on WP:AE and not a subject of the complaint. This is unless the user said something really outrageous. VM did not. Now, speaking about "Discretionary sanctions are intentionally not based on consensus", I think this usually works for the uninvolved admins, excluding only cases when an admin can be personally biased against other contributors - for whatever reason. If such suspicion arises, then I think it would be a generally good idea for an admin to stop sanctioning contributors X,Y,Z he sanctioned in the past, and leave this to others. There are many good admins around who can do this work. My very best wishes (talk) 21:56, 3 March 2019 (UTC)[reply] Editors regularly offer admin opportunities to draw a line addressing civility, aspersions, and battleground conduct. I'd appreciate it if the admin acted on one of those opportunities and drew a line somewhere close to the pillars. This way we can nip problems before they reach the sandpaper-and-hot-sauce level. Leviv ich 22:40, 3 March 2019 (UTC)[reply] Sandstein, with all due respect, there wasnt simply a lack of consensus for the ban. There seemed to be an explicit consensus against it. Drmies, Black Kite, Bishonen and Newyorkbrad all at least expressly disagreed with the severity of the ban, and several of them explicitly disagreed with the ban entirely. Not one other admin said one word about Volunteer Marek's comment as being worth as any ban. I will say your point to VM is valid, there is literally no reason for involved parties to comment on an AE except to add diffs about the complaint. Thats a defect in this board that it even allows for comments by involved users, hell that defect is on display in this very appeal. But it does. And a six month ban for making a supposed ASPERSON without even asking the person to back up his comments is in my view way too extreme. Also, I dont think he even violated WP:ASPERSIONS. It does not say that a single claim made against an editor without diffs is disallowed. What it says is repeated accusations about serious misconduct without evidence are disallowed. If somebody makes a single accusation and does not bring diffs the proper thing to do is ask them to bring diffs. Not jump and say I caught you for jaywalking, here's 6 months for it. I get that the sanctions allow for admins to make these kind of decisions without discussion, but I really think you are being too quick with the trigger on this. nableezy - 03:41, 4 March 2019 (UTC)[reply] As an administrator who has had negligible interaction with VM, I am probably entitled to put these comments in the administrators' section. I'm being cautious only because I have interacted negatively with Icewhiz in other parts of the project. In the previous case Drmies called AE a "relatively free-speech space", which Sandstein jumped on. But Drmies was correct: four of the five arbcom rulings highlighted at WP:ASPERSIONS identify noticeboards like this as places where accusations are allowed that wouldn't be allowed elsewhere. Evidence is required, but Sandstein could have just asked for evidence for, or discounted, the one or two points for which VM did not provide enough. This board must not become a place where editors are afraid to state their opinions in good faith. I thought VM's comments were expressed too intemperately, but that's not offence enough. Also, the arguments of both Sandstein and Icewhiz that all is well because VM deserves a ban for something else are irrelevant for this appeal. The original sanction was startlingly severe and the reduced sanction is still unreasonable. Revoke it. Zero^talk 12:26, 4 March 2019 (UTC)[reply] Result of the appeal by Volunteer Marek This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above. On this appeal from the modified topic ban, there should be a reversal and the sanction should be overturned in its entirety. The inclusion of a couple of overly personalized sentences, in an otherwise appropriate posting on this AE page, does not warrant a topic-ban of any length from a major substantive topic area. Newyorkbrad (talk) 15:07, 3 March 2019 (UTC)[reply] No reversal. VM toes the line. This time an admin considered it crossed. If this is reversed, the behavior is going to continue. He needs to step away from the line, not continue to delicately walk it.--v/r - T P 15:17, 3 March 2019 (UTC)[reply] I would grant the appeal and overturn the sanction. VM didn’t add diffs because he assumed I knew what he was talking about, and if we’re honest, yeah filing an AE request against the person who your wikifriend just got indef’d for calling an anti-semitic vandal does look a lot like a tit-for-tar filing, even if that wasn’t the intent. Yes, he should tone it down and walk away from the line like TParis says, but the points VM raised could have been the basis for an AE report against Icewhiz, and while I don’t think we would have given anything more than a warning, we wouldn’t have sanctioned him for bringing them as on their face they are legitimate concerns. I don’t think it’s appropriate to be sanctioning someone for commenting on one AE thread about issues that would be a valid report in another. TonyBallioni (talk) 15:41, 3 March 2019 (UTC)[reply] Yes, I did say in the original AE that I thought the ban was over the top and should be rescinded before we closed the discussion, so naturally I support this appeal. I also want to say that while Sandstein is certainly entitled to place a topic ban per his own discretion, it seems to me quite provocative of him to close the AE where he did so[66] without responding in any way to the comments of other admins on that ban. @Sandstein: you ought to have waited for somebody else to close. Your close was a separate action from your topic ban. To do it in such a manner, with Newyorkbrad's "A consensus to reverse appears to be emerging"[67] as the last comment, showed scant respect for your fellow admins. Bishonen \| talk 16:08, 3 March 2019 (UTC).[reply] I haven't had time to review the diffs yet, but in terms of procedure; AE is rather odd in that administrators generally try to reach a consensus for sanctions that individual administrators are authorized to place. This action may have been protected by policy, but it wasn't a wise thing to do. Sandstein, surely you can see that once a discussion had been initiated among uninvolved administrators, waiting for consensus would have been reasonable? If not; yes, a single admin is authorized to place a sanction, but said sanction may also be revoked based on a consensus among uninvolved admins at AE. Therefore, the ban needs to be justified on its merits, in addition to being within procedure, and so far only TParis has provided such justification. Vanamonde (Talk) 16:44, 3 March 2019 (UTC)[reply] Sandstein: first, to be clear, I'm speaking of consensus among uninvolved admins, not general community consensus; the comparison to ANI is misleading. Second, any sanction by an individual admin that doesn't have the support of other admins will be overturned on appeal. If we have a problem of users with admin friends willing to overlook their every transgression, unilateral AE actions won't fix it at all; it will simply engender more drama. Vanamonde (Talk) 17:44, 3 March 2019 (UTC)[reply] I said in the original case that the sanction should be overturned, and I stand by that. I appreciate Sandstein's reduction of the sanction, but I am still of the opinion that any transgression, especially in response to an AE filing, was not severe enough to receive anything more than a warning. Black Kite (talk) 17:35, 3 March 2019 (UTC)[reply] I agree with Newyorkbrad. I was grateful that Sandstein reduced the topic ban, but NYB makes a good point. And Black Kite's note makes me realize that one easily responds strongly to something as serious as being brought up at this board. I've been here, and the complaints have always been silly and specious and I could laugh them off, but this was a "real" case which has/had real implications for someone's work on Wikipedia. Drmies (talk) 21:55, 3 March 2019 (UTC)[reply] I agree this should be overturned entirely, and I wonder whether Sandstein's continued Judge Dredding on AE needs to be looked at. Fish+Karate 10:39, 4 March 2019 (UTC)[reply] Please see my comment+disclosure in the previous section and consider it or not at your discretion. Zero^talk 12:33, 4 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The sanction is overturned by a clear consensus of the uninvolved administrators commenting. GoldenRing (talk) 16:12, 4 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Appealing user: Volunteer Marek (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – Volunteer Marek (talk) 07:33, 3 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Sanction being appealed: "Topic ban reduced to one month in duration, beginning as of this date" [56]

Administrator imposing the sanction: Sandstein (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)

Notification of that administrator: The appealing editor is asked to notify the administrator who made the enforcement action of this appeal, and then to replace this text with a diff of that notification. The appeal may not be processed otherwise. If a block is appealed, the editor moving the appeal to this board should make the notification.

Statement by Volunteer Marek

In this recent WP:AE request concerning another editor I made a couple statements concerning the motivation of the original poster (Icewhiz) and their reasons for filing their request. On the basis of my statements about the original poster, Sandstein issued a 6-month topic ban from Eastern European topics, although he also claimed that my comments "have at best a remote bearing on the diffs that are the subject of this enforcement request". This part of the rationale was demonstrably false, as almost all of my comment addressed substance of the request (my points were even numbered to correspond to the filer's points). This was noted by other administrators (User:Drmies, User:Black Kite) who responded to Sandstein:

At that AE request, Sandstein did not respond to my explanation. Other admin also disagreed vehemently with Sandstein's actions.

User:Bishonen said "I think the ban was over the top, and should be rescinded". Additionally she states that the ban should've been overturned in the WP:AE request itself, as there was consensus for its removal, and that having me file an appeal would be unfair to me, since the ban was obviously undeserved in the first place (yet, here I am).
User:Newyorkbrad said "Obviously Sandstein should withdraw the sanction against VM, which has garnered no support and deserves none". Note that Newyorkbrad specifically says "withdraw" and notes the strong WP:CONSENSUS for Sandstein's actions "If there’s a sufficient consensus right here to overrule it here, fine." (yet, here I am)
User:Black Kite added that "(the ban is) a ludicrous sanction and it needs fixing, and it shouldn't be down to VM to appeal it either. " again noting that there shouldn't even be a need for an appeal (yet, here I am)
Then at 23:39, February 28 Newyorkbrad stated: A consensus to reverse (the topic ban on me) appears to be emerging

However, without any response to the other admins, Sandstein nonetheless closed the AE report with the topic ban still in place, less than 8 hours after Newyorkbrad's last comment.

My first reason for appealing the ban is then simply that Sandstein's action was against clear WP:CONSENSUS and he did not provide a sufficient rationale for it. I understand that since the area is under discretionary sanctions, a unilateral action such as this, strictly speaking is not against policy. Just because you can do something does not mean you should. If this was a disagreement between Sandstein and one other administrator, then yeah, sure. But here we have FOUR administrators explicitly and strongly opposing Sandstein, and NONE supporting him. Yet, he went ahead and did it regardless, ignoring the input of others. If this was article space and someone acted in this manner, then it'd be THEM who'd be looking at a sanction.

As a result I DID ask Sandstein on his talk page to rescind the topic ban [57] per #1 here. Sandstein responded with a "have you stopped beating your wife" kind of question to me, which was worded in a way that no matter how I answered, I would be admitting to having done something bad. I responded. Sandstein replied that he was "not entirely convinced" and that "you do not convince me that you understand why I considered it necessary to impose the sanction". I decided to be entirely truthful in my appeal, and rather than pretending falsely that I did understand, I explicitly stated that I did NOT in fact understand why it was necessary. Of course, as exemplified by the four admins discussed above, I wasn't the only one. It seems that NOBODY but Sandstein understood why it was necessary.

In the end however, Sandstein magnanimously reduced the topic ban he imposed on me against consensus to one month rather than six. I sincerely thank him for that. He also generously told me that I was free to appeal the reduced topic ban. Thanks for that as well. So here I am.

Here is the bottom line, and I'm going to be honest. I've been around long enough to know that the way to get a sanction removed is to grovel before administrator power and hope for the best in the ensuing Struggle session. I can't do that. I disagree with the topic ban and I see no reason for it. Obviously I am not the only one, since the topic ban was imposed against strong consensus from FOUR other admins. I do believe that the majority of my original comment was non-problematic and specifically addressed the issues raised in the WP:AE report.

However, it is true that the two sentences directed at Icewhiz's motivations, and my description of him, Francois Robere and Yanniv as a "tag team" were inappropriate and I should not have made them. If given a chance I would have struck them or removed them. I made a mistake. But so did Sandstein in imposing the topic ban. I am here admitting that I made a mistake.

Since the crux of the issue was my comments at an WP:AE request from Icewhiz, I can totally understand if the one month ban is converted into a restriction on me commenting on Icewhiz's WP:AE requests. Most likely there will be plenty of opportunities for me to violate such a restriction in the future and I promise not to do so. Such a restriction would be both fair and relevant to the nature of the original violation.

Of course, I'd rather not be sanctioned at all. So if possible, I will simply promise to refrain from commenting on other editors' motivations when they file requests at the drama boards, and I will not describe groups of other editors as "tag teams".

I'd appreciate it if the discussion of this appeal stayed relevant to the nature of the appeal rather than digress into various red-herrings (since that's kind of how we got here in the first place)

Thanks.Volunteer Marek (talk) 07:33, 3 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Re:Sandstein - as already noted, yes, discretionary sanctions can be imposed without consensus. That does not mean they should be, especially if consensus is overwhelmingly against them. "I do it just because I can" is a terrible rationale for, well, anything, Sandstein. And no, the appeal is not based solely on the fact the sanction was against consensus. The appeal is based on the fact that the sanction was INAPPROPRIATE and did not provide adequate justification as reflected by consensus judgement

Regarding Icewhiz's statement. I'm going to keep this to the minimum. Icewhiz, if you truly feel those diffs are "bad" then go ahead and open up a separate WP:AE request. NONE of them concern this appeal. To quote Sandstein, they "have at best a remote bearing on the subject of this appeal request". I'll be more than happy to respond to them in the most appropriate and deserving manner if you do choose to open up a separate WP:AE request.Volunteer Marek (talk) 08:50, 3 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

(if any admins DOES wish me to reply to Icewhiz's aspersions here I will be more than happy to do so - for now I just wish to note that "the editor" whom Icewhiz is citing approvingly in #4 of his comment [58] is User:Kaiser von Europa who was indefinetly banned by User:Salvio giuliano for making violent threats and pushing neo-Nazi POV back in 2013 [59]) Volunteer Marek (talk) 08:52, 3 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Icewhiz accuses me of making "aspersions" by saying the anon-IP is a sock puppet of a banned user and that there is no SPI case for this user. Yeah, there's no SPI case for that user because they were making threats and WP:OUTING and stuff had to get oversighted and the SPI would've just played into that. As the block summary states, you can email Salvio for the relevant info. There's no doubt that this is KvE. WHY are we talking about this on an appeal that has NOTHING to do with that diff or user?????? Volunteer Marek (talk) 09:31, 3 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

(and actually THERE IS INDEED support in a KvE SPI archive [60] for the fact that the user in question is KvE, contrary to Icewhiz's assertion. Click any of the blocked IPs in the SPI. Like this one. Click geolocate. Then click on the contributions of the anon account Icewhiz is citing approvingly [61]. Compare the nature of the edits. If there's still any doubt, click geolocate. It's him.

Statement by Sandstein

This appeal should be declined. I had written a longer comment, but then my browser tab crashed. I'll therefore only note that the only argument made as grounds for the appeal is that my topic ban in response to Volunteer Marek's AE statement was "against consensus". This is an inapplicable argument because discretionary sanctions do not depend on consensus, but are explicitly a matter of an individual administrator's discretion. For the rest, I'll refer to my conversation with Volunteer Marek (permalink) on my talk page. Sandstein 08:19, 3 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Vanamonde93: I disagree that waiting for consensus would have been appropriate. Discretionary sanctions are intentionally not based on consensus, because if that were the case, vested contributors would be effectively immune from sanctions as long as - as often happens - they are quick enough to summon their friends to weigh in on an AE thread. I therefore take special care to not treat AE as though it were in any way a consensus-based forum, in order to not let Wikipedia's consensus culture (which is otherwise essential to our project) take over this board. Moreover, the sanction appealed here is a one-month ban, not the six-month one that others disagreed with, which makes relying on that disagreement in this appeal questionable.

Additionally, the ban is justified on the merits. Volunteer Marek is one of several editors (some of which I already sanctioned) who have been treating Wikipedia (including AE) as a battleground in order to attempt to win content disputes related to Poland and Polish Jews in World War II. This is not acceptable. Volunteer Marek's statement at AE for which they were sanctioned reflects this battleground mentality. Because Volunteer Marek's appeal does not reflect an understanding that it is this battleground mentality, in addition to the specific aspersions cast on others, that led to the ban, I believe it remains necessary. Sandstein 17:29, 3 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Icewhiz

Concurrent to the AE, VM has made a number of sanctionable actions elsewhere which were more serious than his conduct at the AE. I believe presenting this evidence at the appeal is relevant, as filing this evidence in a separate AE request would be a re-discussion of the same issue:

16:19, 26 February 2019 - "You showing up to an article you've never edited before but which was a target of a now indef-banned user I had serious trouble with a few years back and whose sock puppet I reverted recently. Want to explain that one?" - WP:ASPERSIONS - alluding to some connection between myself and a sockpuppet.
15:46, 26 February 2019 restoration of WP:REDFLAG material challenged on sourcing - "During Nazi occupation Poles and Jews were targeted for extermination" - tagged with "fact|date=August 2017". He then 15:46, 26 February 2019 remove the fact tag, stating " ref is right there". He did not participate in the discussion of this municipal funded source (beyond the non-argument of "And the source is reliable"). To add insult to injury - the cited (quite questionable) source - available here does not contain this REDFLAG material at least per my reading (checked each instance of a "zyd" inflection). Violates WP:V.
At the AE - 05:59, 26 February 2019 VM admitted that "For the record, I have no access to Kopciowski either." - which is a shocking admission considering his 06:36, 24 February 2019 revert of material challenged on REDFLAG + source misrepresentation grounds. Nor has he participated on the talk page there. (for the record - Kopciowski was one of the sources I accessed prior to claiming misrepresentation). Violates WP:V and WP:AGF (of the challenge).
06:09, 26 February 2019 - rollback to a version from 5 March 2017. The material was challenged by an editor on 14:03, 27 July 2017. for "There is no evidenc for the passage, the outrageous comparing of Poles and Jews in the last sentence ist terrible". The WP:REDFLAG content in question is " as Nazi party was elected to power in Germany, repressions intensified, eventually both Poles and Jews were classified as subhuman and targeted for extermination". The cited source - [62] - is a webpage from the municipality (certainly not a RS for history) - and furthermore does not (per my reading) contain the REDFLAG content. VM did not explain his revert on the talk page nor even in his edit summary - an auto-generated edit summary for a very significant edit. Violates WP:V and WP:AGF (of the challenge).

Editing Holocaust history requires careful use of good RSes. Alluding to sock-puppetry, not discussing ("And the source is reliable" not being beyond a mere semblance of a discussion - in the other 2 - no discussion at all), and inserting WP:REDFLAG material after it has been challenged (and without verification) is not careful editing. Icewhiz (talk) 08:25, 3 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

VM's assertion of socking above - diff - is not backed up by evidence (in any of the user pages or relevant SPI case (which has no finding of sockpuppetry at all)) - absent evidence, this is WP:ASPERSIONS in this appeal. Icewhiz (talk) 09:14, 3 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The SPI from 2015 didn't find a match (it did result in the IPs from 2015 being deemed disruptive but no match vs. the named user). The 64-bit IP in question is geolocated to a location quite a bit away, and their edits (at least additions) all involve porting of factoids(e.g. people born) or weblinks that exist in the corresponding de.wiki entry of the towns. No evidence supporting the rather serious accusation towards the 64-bit IP has been presented - other than being a German editor interested in modern day Poland (former Prussia). Icewhiz (talk) 09:51, 3 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Malik Shabazz

Please forgive me, Volunteer Marek, if my comments kill your worthy appeal.

What kind of "goods" does Icewhiz have on Sandstein that would cause an administrator to blindly take the side of an editor who is extremely disruptive in so many topic areas subject to sanctions? Sandstein topic-banned me from the Arab-Israeli conflict almost a year ago in an equally egregious exercise of egomania, despite a similarly strong consensus against the block.[63][64] Then he took Icewhiz at his word and "warned" me for a topic-ban "violation" that occurred before he imposed the ban.[65] Why does Sandstein act like he is corrupt and incompetent? Does anybody give a fuck, or will the only response be to block me for making an accurate personal attack? — MShabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 22:26, 3 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Piotrus

(I can't figure out if I am involved or uninvolved... :>) Anyway, keeping it short this time:

first, I think we need to consider chilling effect for banning an editor for expressing views at AE or other dispute resolution. Sure, WP:NPA and such need to be observed, but for obvious reasons they have to be relaxed in such a setting. In all honesty, Sandstein seems to be very fond of sanctioning people for things that many other admins and editors would not. On one level, I do appreciate that WP:CIV and such are getting enforced, but this is too inconsistent, and has made me, at least, frankly afraid to even post in discussions where Sandstein is involved. I even consider it remotely possible he will topic ban me, now, for saying I am afraid of him. Is this the environment we want to create?
second. CIV/NPA should be enforced more, but topic ban is not the correct remedy. If an editor has civility issues, a ban from talk pages, or a type of NPA-related 1RR ("if you make a personal attack, you will get a 24h ban") or such would work much better. From a purely technical perspective, IF VM indeed has a problem with NPA, CIV, or such, the topic ban he received DOES NOTHING to address the issue. A topic ban is a content-level remedy. Why content-ban an editor when no evidence of content-issues have been shown? It's like prescribing antibiotics for a viral infection.
lastly. A year ago Sandstein topic banned a very prolific content creator, User:Poeticbent, author of ~1,000 DYKs and dozens of GAs, for half a year, for a minor transgression (out of the blue, it was Poeticbent's first serious sanction AFAIK). Poeticbent has since retired from the project, citing ungrateful attitude of the community. This should illustrate the danger of semi-random, poorly thought general restrictions. If someone has a problem with civility, or sources, or such, we can craft better, more targeted and specific restrictions than general blocks or bans. More surgical and less nuke-like restrictions should be the future of conflict-resolution at Wikipedia, not the other way around. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:29, 4 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by (involved editor 2)

Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by Volunteer Marek

Vacate sanction--I utterly dislike this ridiculous cowboy approach to AE sanctioning. When there are many respected folks who are actively opposing your sanction, you ought not enforce it and I am very willing to say that Sandstein was actively gaming the system by taking advantage of the no-consensus clause. And, if I see repetition of such a worse sanction, I am very willing to drag him to ArbCom.∯WBG^converse 09:00, 3 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

If VM does toe the line, you (TP) need to put the evidence in a fresh AE thread and then deal with it, rather than support Sandstein's blatant gaming of AC/DS.∯WBG^converse 15:42, 3 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree with Sandstein on two points:

I think it is wrong to sanction any user simply for his/her alleged "battleground mentality", unless such mentality is obvious for everyone. This is not case. We are not Thought Police.
I think this is usually a bad practice to sanction someone who just came to comment on WP:AE and not a subject of the complaint. This is unless the user said something really outrageous. VM did not.

Now, speaking about "Discretionary sanctions are intentionally not based on consensus", I think this usually works for the uninvolved admins, excluding only cases when an admin can be personally biased against other contributors - for whatever reason. If such suspicion arises, then I think it would be a generally good idea for an admin to stop sanctioning contributors X,Y,Z he sanctioned in the past, and leave this to others. There are many good admins around who can do this work. My very best wishes (talk) 21:56, 3 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Editors regularly offer admin opportunities to draw a line addressing civility, aspersions, and battleground conduct. I'd appreciate it if the admin acted on one of those opportunities and drew a line somewhere close to the pillars. This way we can nip problems before they reach the sandpaper-and-hot-sauce level. Leviv ich 22:40, 3 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Sandstein, with all due respect, there wasnt simply a lack of consensus for the ban. There seemed to be an explicit consensus against it. Drmies, Black Kite, Bishonen and Newyorkbrad all at least expressly disagreed with the severity of the ban, and several of them explicitly disagreed with the ban entirely. Not one other admin said one word about Volunteer Marek's comment as being worth as any ban. I will say your point to VM is valid, there is literally no reason for involved parties to comment on an AE except to add diffs about the complaint. Thats a defect in this board that it even allows for comments by involved users, hell that defect is on display in this very appeal. But it does. And a six month ban for making a supposed ASPERSON without even asking the person to back up his comments is in my view way too extreme. Also, I dont think he even violated WP:ASPERSIONS. It does not say that a single claim made against an editor without diffs is disallowed. What it says is repeated accusations about serious misconduct without evidence are disallowed. If somebody makes a single accusation and does not bring diffs the proper thing to do is ask them to bring diffs. Not jump and say I caught you for jaywalking, here's 6 months for it. I get that the sanctions allow for admins to make these kind of decisions without discussion, but I really think you are being too quick with the trigger on this. nableezy - 03:41, 4 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

As an administrator who has had negligible interaction with VM, I am probably entitled to put these comments in the administrators' section. I'm being cautious only because I have interacted negatively with Icewhiz in other parts of the project. In the previous case Drmies called AE a "relatively free-speech space", which Sandstein jumped on. But Drmies was correct: four of the five arbcom rulings highlighted at WP:ASPERSIONS identify noticeboards like this as places where accusations are allowed that wouldn't be allowed elsewhere. Evidence is required, but Sandstein could have just asked for evidence for, or discounted, the one or two points for which VM did not provide enough. This board must not become a place where editors are afraid to state their opinions in good faith. I thought VM's comments were expressed too intemperately, but that's not offence enough. Also, the arguments of both Sandstein and Icewhiz that all is well because VM deserves a ban for something else are irrelevant for this appeal. The original sanction was startlingly severe and the reduced sanction is still unreasonable. Revoke it. Zero^talk 12:26, 4 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Result of the appeal by Volunteer Marek

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

On this appeal from the modified topic ban, there should be a reversal and the sanction should be overturned in its entirety. The inclusion of a couple of overly personalized sentences, in an otherwise appropriate posting on this AE page, does not warrant a topic-ban of any length from a major substantive topic area. Newyorkbrad (talk) 15:07, 3 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
No reversal. VM toes the line. This time an admin considered it crossed. If this is reversed, the behavior is going to continue. He needs to step away from the line, not continue to delicately walk it.--v/r - T P 15:17, 3 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I would grant the appeal and overturn the sanction. VM didn’t add diffs because he assumed I knew what he was talking about, and if we’re honest, yeah filing an AE request against the person who your wikifriend just got indef’d for calling an anti-semitic vandal does look a lot like a tit-for-tar filing, even if that wasn’t the intent. Yes, he should tone it down and walk away from the line like TParis says, but the points VM raised could have been the basis for an AE report against Icewhiz, and while I don’t think we would have given anything more than a warning, we wouldn’t have sanctioned him for bringing them as on their face they are legitimate concerns. I don’t think it’s appropriate to be sanctioning someone for commenting on one AE thread about issues that would be a valid report in another. TonyBallioni (talk) 15:41, 3 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I did say in the original AE that I thought the ban was over the top and should be rescinded before we closed the discussion, so naturally I support this appeal. I also want to say that while Sandstein is certainly entitled to place a topic ban per his own discretion, it seems to me quite provocative of him to close the AE where he did so[66] without responding in any way to the comments of other admins on that ban. @Sandstein: you ought to have waited for somebody else to close. Your close was a separate action from your topic ban. To do it in such a manner, with Newyorkbrad's "A consensus to reverse appears to be emerging"[67] as the last comment, showed scant respect for your fellow admins. Bishonen | talk 16:08, 3 March 2019 (UTC).[reply]
I haven't had time to review the diffs yet, but in terms of procedure; AE is rather odd in that administrators generally try to reach a consensus for sanctions that individual administrators are authorized to place. This action may have been protected by policy, but it wasn't a wise thing to do. Sandstein, surely you can see that once a discussion had been initiated among uninvolved administrators, waiting for consensus would have been reasonable? If not; yes, a single admin is authorized to place a sanction, but said sanction may also be revoked based on a consensus among uninvolved admins at AE. Therefore, the ban needs to be justified on its merits, in addition to being within procedure, and so far only TParis has provided such justification. Vanamonde (Talk) 16:44, 3 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Sandstein: first, to be clear, I'm speaking of consensus among uninvolved admins, not general community consensus; the comparison to ANI is misleading. Second, any sanction by an individual admin that doesn't have the support of other admins will be overturned on appeal. If we have a problem of users with admin friends willing to overlook their every transgression, unilateral AE actions won't fix it at all; it will simply engender more drama. Vanamonde (Talk) 17:44, 3 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I said in the original case that the sanction should be overturned, and I stand by that. I appreciate Sandstein's reduction of the sanction, but I am still of the opinion that any transgression, especially in response to an AE filing, was not severe enough to receive anything more than a warning. Black Kite (talk) 17:35, 3 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with Newyorkbrad. I was grateful that Sandstein reduced the topic ban, but NYB makes a good point. And Black Kite's note makes me realize that one easily responds strongly to something as serious as being brought up at this board. I've been here, and the complaints have always been silly and specious and I could laugh them off, but this was a "real" case which has/had real implications for someone's work on Wikipedia. Drmies (talk) 21:55, 3 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I agree this should be overturned entirely, and I wonder whether Sandstein's continued Judge Dredding on AE needs to be looked at. Fish+Karate 10:39, 4 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Please see my comment+disclosure in the previous section and consider it or not at your discretion. Zero^talk 12:33, 4 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]