User who is submitting this request for enforcement

EtienneDolet (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 08:03, 7 August 2016‎ (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested

Volunteer Marek (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
et My very best wishes (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy to be enforced

WP:EE
WP:ARBAPDS
WP:ARBIPA

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

Volunteer Marek and My very best wishes have a history of tag-teaming in edit wars. Lately they have been doing this in articles relating to American politics.
Examples: Since July 24, Volunteer Marek was edit-warring at Debbie Wasserman Schultz, especially regarding material on criticism of how DWS handled the NGP VAN data breach [1] [2] [3] [4] and the fact that she was booed off the stage at the DNC [5] [6].

Then on August 2, My very best wishes, who had hitherto never shown any interest in the article, appears out of nowhere to revert on behalf of Volunteer Marek [7] [8].

Same thing at Clinton Foundation on 8-9 July: Mvbw steps in to revert on behalf of VM over a POV tag [9][10]. They're tag teaming over other information as well: [11][12].

Same thing at Donald Trump on July 4: VM adds some text [13], and after it is removed, Mvbw shows up a few hours later to re-add it, even though he has never edited the article before [14]. This appears to be a clear-cut example of WP:GAME so as to circumvent the 1RR restrictions in this particular article.

If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)

• I have warned both users about the tag-teaming here and here.
• VM alerted of EE sanctions by Callanecc. VM also alerted of WP:ARBAPDS sanctions by Kelly
• Mvbw alerted of EE sanctions by EdJohnston. Aware of WP:ARBAPDS sanctions here.
• Both users are aware of WP:ARBIPA here.

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

I had previously made a case request at WP:ARBCOM regarding tag teaming in eastern Europe related articles, but since that area is already under discretionary sanctions, I was told to file at WP:AE instead. There's a long history of tag-teaming, and it is not limited to WP:EE or WP:ARBAPDS.

Beginning mid-2014 (and possibly earlier), Volunteer Marek and My very best wishes appear to be helping each other out in edit-wars by tag-teaming. VM is the more active of the two, and the tag-teaming typically has the form of VM getting involved in an edit-war in an article that Mvbw has not previously edited. Once the edit-war is under way, Mvbw appears out of nowhere and reverts on VM’s behalf. In a minority of instances, it is VM that steps into an edit-war that Mvbw is involved.

Since mid-2014, the tag teaming has occurred over a large number of articles (at least 40 in 2015 alone, although there are possibly more), some of which are quite obscure (e.g. Philip M. Breedlove, Khan al-Assal chemical attack, The Harvest of Sorrow). Initially the tag-teaming was restricted to Eastern Europe-related articles, particularly the Ukraine crisis, but as of 2015 it has spread to non-EE articles (example), hence I'm inclined to believe that it's not merely mutual interests that guides them. Furthermore, though both these editors have edited for a long time, they edited few articles in common in the period 2012-mid 2014, with the number of articles they edit in common skyrocketing after that. It should be noted that VM edits a far larger variety of articles than Mvbw does; however, most of the articles Mvbw chooses to edit after mid-2014 appear to be articles VM edits, especially of those he is facing contention (i.e. the April contributions of Mvbw and VM are noticeably similar). The disruption this has caused is considerable. One example below:

• WP:GAME - Tag-teaming so as to circumvent 1RR articles, which appears to be the case at WP:ARBAPDS as well. See: [15][16][17] followed by Mvbw's reverts [18][19][20]. Then an attempt to have their opponents blocked at 3RRN [21]. An example of this occurred recently at Russian military intervention in the Syrian Civil War, where VM ran out of 1RR reverts, only to have Mvbw revert and ultimately have the user blocked.

As a result of this MfD discussion, the previous page has now been moved to Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive197/EtienneDolet_evidence. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 23:05, 8 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

[22][23]

@Lord Roem: I just want to clarify that Mvbw did not state that "Putin doesn't fall under the BLP policy"...he said Putin "does not deserve a decent BLP page." Two very different things. He then pushes the notion that Putin is a fascist and similar to Adolf Hitler using that very same article ([24][25]) from that very same comment. It's not a joke, and it's quite serious. As for the timing of this report, it is largely in response of the recent tag-teaming that spread to other topic areas such as AP of which I find concerning. Étienne Dolet (talk) 18:39, 8 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I'm concerned about attempts of ADMINSHOPPING. VM has been going around trying to have admins, who have either sympathetic towards him in the past (perhaps even friends), or on the same sides in disputes, to speak for him. Posting on MelanieN's TP here and Drmies' there, even after pinging them on this very report. I commend MelanieN for commenting as an editor, but Drmies should recuse himself (I presume Drmies didn't comment at the ARBCOM case request for that very reason, after all, he was involved at Putin), or do what MelanieN rightfully did, and comment as an editor.

And Drmies' comment is also strange and vague. It does not appear that he went over the evidence, or the arguments brought forth at this report. Mvbw's remark that Putin "does not deserve a decent BLP page." should be taken seriously, especially considering the fact that he pushes the notion that Putin is a fascist and similar to Adolf Hitler using that very same article ([26][27]) from that very same comment just days after the comment was made(!) That's as serious as it gets. I'm surprised that this is even debatable.

Marek's foul language and gratuitous personal attacks, are disrespectful to the venue of AE and its administrators. If Marek makes PAs like this towards admins at AE reports, just imagine what we average folk endure at TPs with him. I, for one, can pull out dozens of PAs if need be, from him calling me an "asshole" to creating entire sections at talk pages just to attack me. Étienne Dolet (talk) 20:10, 9 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

UPDATE I have updated the report to add another case, WP:ARBIPA. At 1971 Bangladesh genocide, Mvbw and VM appear to be pushing an identical POV in the form of vote-stacking ([28][29]) and main space editing ([30][31]). 1971 Bangladesh genocide is a rather obscure article and the likelihood of them sharing the same POV in this field would be rare. As usual, Mvbw has never edited this article before, let alone the ARBIPA topic area, until VM found himself embroiled in a conflict there. I find the chance of this being just coincidental mutual interests to be slim to none. Étienne Dolet (talk) 22:44, 10 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

In his latest defense, VM claims several times that I have “brought these diffs to multiple venues. From AN/I, to 3RR, to ArbCom itself” or that I “brought this to other drama boards”. This is completely false, I have only ever brought this evidence here, and a small subset of it at ARBCOM once, who told me to bring it here. I have never gone to 3RR or ANI or any such venue with this particular evidence. So this claim is completely bunk, and VM knows it, but it’s the only way he can defend himself. As for going to the “drama boards”, Yes, I did take VM to ANI twice for his personal attacks, but definitely not for tag-teaming. And one of those reports, for which he called me an "asshole", I withdrew. One can't help but notice how VM doesn't show any diffs of his claims that I took this evidence to all these venues, because such diffs don't exist. In fact, VM is perhaps the last person who should talk. Witness here how in the space of a few months he went block shopping simply because these people had the temerity to disagree with him [32] [33] [34] [35] (all closed with no action btw). Nor is this behavior “old news”, as VM will try to claim. Witness how obsessively he trying to get Doc [36] blocked for merely having the temerity to participate in this AE thread (which somehow he manages to claim is related to Donald Trump). So if anyone has a problem with obsessively pursuing grudges and block shopping, it is VM. The rest of his post consists of nothing more than the usual personal attacks and bluster. VM has shown tremendous disrespect for the venue of AE, by using foul language, making personal attacks and unfounded accusations without providing any evidence, and by refusing to keep his posts succinct. The length of his posts is not coincidence: It is intentional filibuster, a favorite tactic. But in the end, for all its ferocity, VM’s bluster fails its main purpose: To address the evidence that he and Mvbw have been very successfully playing this little tag-teaming game for quite some time now. Étienne Dolet (talk) 02:57, 11 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

VM saying that I outed him is entirely misleading. I simply stated his old username (Radeksz) at the ARBCOM case request, because he and Mvbw were one of the main protagonists in the notorious WP:EEML case. He even made an attempt to remove his old username from the case request itself and demanded that I be blocked. VM subsequently called me an "asshole" just for that...just because I wrote his old username down. As for that ANI report, I really did not know of any other way to handle someone calling me an asshole and not apologizing (even till this very day) other than letting admins know about it. But before the ANI report, I wanted an apology from him on his TP, but he just deleted my request. And now, he again shows no diff of me "outing" him because it's simply not true, and he knows that. At any rate, I know this is old stuff but VM just now distorted the reality of this episode to such a degree that I feel compelled to correct it. But it goes to show that nothing has changed. Étienne Dolet (talk) 06:00, 11 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

This is not a "taunt". I don't know where you can come up with such a characterization, especially after calling me an "asshole". And are you seriously saying that "you were throwing my name around simply to intimidate and harass" and that I was "behaving despicably" just because I placed your old username in an ARBCOM case request?! This is just insane. Étienne Dolet (talk) 07:35, 11 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion concerning Volunteer Marek and My very best wishes[edit]

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Volunteer Marek[edit]

ED's "evidence"

@User:Lord Roem Re [37]. Thank you, exactly. Why is EtienneDolet trying to get me sanctioned for another user's behavior? Especially when even that behavior (MVBW's) isn't sanctionable/disruptive itself? My edits are not disruptive, they haven't broken any policies, they all aim to improve the encyclopedia. Why am I even here??? And yes, EtienneDolet has now tried to get me sanctioned on every single drama board available, from AN/I to 3RR to ArbCom to, now, here. And ALL of these request so far have ended the same way. They were rejected and on several occasions ED has been told to cut it out.Volunteer Marek (talk) 03:42, 9 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Athenean. Re: "No firm consensus, but the majority of users seem to think that some of this material (especially the booing off the stage) belongs in the article. Certainly no consensus to keep the material out. " - this is a BLP and according to the discretionary sanctions of American politics topic, any challenged material that does not have "firm consensus" stays out. So "no consensus to keep material out" is not sufficient to put it in.Volunteer Marek (talk) 07:22, 9 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Oh yeah, User:Lord Roem, please note that some of the users are listing consecutive edits I made separately to make it look like I made more reverts than I actually did. Alternatively, they get fast and loose with the timing, like Athenean when he claims "In a 40 hour period between July 30th and August 1st" - actually it was between July 30th and August 2nd and not a 40 hour period but something like 60 hour period, and not four reverts but three - and all of them based on implementing BLP policy. Maybe this is just sloppy math, or maybe it's stretching the truth to make it look like something it's not.Volunteer Marek (talk) 07:36, 9 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

And btw, it is extremely disingenuous, dishonest even, for you to ask me to "shorten my statement" but then follow that up with a bunch of unsupported evidence-free accusations and demands that I explain myself. You want shorter statement? Stop making BS accusations.Volunteer Marek (talk) 09:36, 9 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Re: EtienneDolet's newest attacks. EtienneDolet's is only showing that he's obsessively pursuing a grudge, forum shopping, and is incapable of WP:DROPTHESTICK. User:Drmies was pinged in large part because he was making administrative decisions on Vladimir Putin article, which this report tries to dig out of the the ground and present as new. Hell, he gave me a block at that time. I don't see how he can be said to be playing favorites. EtienneDolet is just upset that in this case Drmies dismissed his accusations as the ridiculous attacks they are. This is classic WP:BATTLEGROUND behavior on ED's part. MelanieN was pinged because she is the administrator most active on articles related to the current presidential election and knows more about the context and atmosphere there. Again, EtienneDolet is just throwing out smears because he's unhappy that this administrator too spoke favorably of me. EtienneDolet is also dishonestly characterizing both my edits and MVBW. He's basically complaining that reliable sources - academic and scholarly publications - don't say what he wants them to say and gosh, darn it, the fact that some editors wish to consider these source is just so unfair! Those professors and experts who wrote those reliable sources should've written exactly what EtienneDolet wants them to have written! But I guess since he can't file AE reports against respected academics who've written scholarly articles, he just has to settle for smearing MVBW. By pretending that MVBW discussing scholarly sources on talk is equivalent to saying "Putin is Hitler". This is outright, shameless lying by ED. Same for the other diff.

But here's the thing. None of this matters. This is from six months ago. And during those six months, EtienneDolet has LITERALLY (this isn't hyperbole) brought these diffs to multiple venues. From AN/I, to 3RR, to ArbCom itself. This is what a WP:BATTLEGROUND warrior does. Take a couple diffs. Portray them in a false light to make it look sinister even when it's not. And then go around ALL the drama boards over and over again crying "Please ban these guys! See how bad they are! They won't let me push my POV in peace!". Until you find some naive or cynical or simple minded admin who'll fall for this tactic. In my 10+ years on Wikipedia I've seen this done multiple times but never with a level of shamelessness, dishonesty and obsessiveness that ED displays.

It has been suggested multiple times by other editors - when ED brought this to other drama boards - that ED should really stop trying to settle disputes by abusing AN/I or other noticeboards. In absence of doing so voluntarily, they need a explicit restriction on their block-shopping behavior. He creates WP:BATTLEGROUNDs in multiple areas with this behavior, and he refuses to discuss issues in good faith on talk because he thinks that he can get his way and "win" instead by having those who disagree with him banned. That's what's going on too. This is tendentious and yes, it is WP:HARASSMENT. It short circuits the consensus building process - why discuss and compromise when you can go running to some admin and beg them for a block?

Since he insist on piling this on, since he can't let go of grudges from six months ago (which have been reviewed multiple times by administrators already), since he is likely to repeat this behavior in the future (this very report is evidence of that), this needs to WP:BOOMERANG on him and he needs to be restricted from drama boards indefinitely.

Maybe that will allow him to learn how to discuss, cooperate, compromise and build consensus rather than block shopping admins for a block at the sign of the slightest disagreement. If not, since Wikipedia is a collaborative project, maybe this isn't a good place for them. Plenty of internet forums out there where he can pick all the fights he wants.Volunteer Marek (talk) 00:12, 11 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

(and to bring India-Pakistan-Bangladesh topics into this is just more evidence of bad faith. Funky bamboo, I was one of the few editors who actually was willing to stop into that nationalist battleground and try and clean it up a bit. I guess that's the flutin' thanks. Anyway, in that topic area, like these two others, there wasn't a single damn thing wrong with my edits and ED really needs to stop lying by trying to make it look bad.)Volunteer Marek (talk) 00:12, 11 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I'm getting really sick and tired of these smears. ED claims he "withdrew" one of the AN/I request against me. And that this wasn't "forum shopping". Well, it was. And he "withdrew it" precisely because he was warned about forum shopping. I mean his own diff shows it [38], if you just read the comment right above his. And yes, I did call ED an "asshole" once. On my talk page. Because ED was trying to WP:OUT me although he was being cute about it, in a way which would allow him deniability (did I mention this user has engaged in long term WP:HARASSMENT and WP:STALKING?) This is also old news, this is also something he's brought up all over the place and this is also something that's been considered. He's also not clear on what "block-shopping" involves. Reporting disruptive users is NOT block-shopping - that's what I did in the requests ED provides and most of these were validated with blocks. "Block shopping" is when you go to one admin to get a user blocked, that admin says "no, no block", so you got another venue/admin and ask for a block again for the same thing, then another and so on until you get that one naive admin gullible enough to fall for your nonsense. *That* is what ED is doing.Volunteer Marek (talk) 05:24, 11 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

EtienneDolet, you can make all the bullshit excuses you want, but at the end of the day, you know, and I know, that you were throwing my name around simply to intimidate and harass. You can WIKILAWYER the definition of "outing" all you want, but the truth of the matter is still that you were behaving despicably. That's probably why NO admin or arbitrator actually thought my response to you was problematic enough to warrant a sanction. Oh yeah, and you fail to mention that I made that comment after I had told you to stay off my talk page, but you insisted on coming back and making provocative remarks. Then you followed it up with taunting.

And hey. Buddy. You're forum shopping again. At some point that credit card is going to get maxed out and the bills will come due.

@Athenean - "Because there is simply no way for him to disprove it" Well, no shit there's no way I can disprove it. The whole report is formulated, purposefully and in bad faith - in a way which makes it impossible to disprove anything. What am I suppose to disprove? That I am not coordinating or tag-teaming with MVBW? How am I suppose to do that? You can't prove a negative (at least not this one). I mean, if there was some mind reading machine or something, I guess you could come over to my house, plug me in and read my mind. But there ain't. That's the whole point here! The accusation is so bogus precisely because you can't defend against it.

How about you and EtienneDolet "disprove" that you two are coordinating? Prove to us that you two are not frequent off-wiki correspondence. Prove that you don't follow EtienneDolet's edits around and tag team with him. Come on, "disprove" it! Or alternatively, you can stop being ridiculous.

Throwing accusations at people is cheap and easy. And that's all you got here. And if you don't want me to write more in this report then it's simple. Stop. Making. More. And. More. Baseless. Accusations. I get it, you expect me to take these dishonest attacks and smearing of my reputation laying down. You're annoyed that your bullying and harassment is running into brick walls. Like, for example, that half a dozen administrators here, and a bunch of other users, who say that there is nothing sanctionable on my part. So you're doubling down, throwing even more shit at me. And then you have the temerity to whine and complain that I respond? Disgusting.

And you really really have some fucking gall to accuse ME of "character assassination". I genuinely hope that you are ashamed of yourself. And anyone can go through and check my diffs. Yes, the ArbCom rejected the case with several arbs saying it lacked merit. Yes, EtienneDolet DOES keep bringing up same stuff to various noticeboards - hell, he himself accidentally provided a diff where he is being chided by an administrator for that exact thing. So I'm not the one who's lying here.

Athenean re [39], there's SEVEN editors (including admins) commenting in the general section here who are telling you that the accusations you are making in that diff are baseless and unwarranted. There are TWO admins commenting in the "for uninvolved admins" section who are also telling you the same thing (one against). So the reason you're not getting your way here is NOT my "filibuster, spinning, distorting, and character assassination" but rather the fact that your accusations have no merit. But, just like on article talk pages, you have a WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT problem and for some reason you seem to think that the best way forward is to double down on your accusations and just throw more of them at me. Honestly, really, that kind of approach to editing Wikipedia is gonna come back and bite you in the ass sooner or later.Volunteer Marek (talk) 07:33, 11 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Since we're bringing up old stuff

HERE IS EVIDENCE, from just one discussion, of how EtienneDolet approaches editing Wikipedia. It shows clear disregard for Wikipedia policies, a nasty WP:BATTLEGROUND attitude, dishonesty, manipulation, obscurantism, tendentiousness and... very problematic POV. It also shows that Athenean and EtienneDolet "tag-team" (or at least, that's what it looks like judging them by their own standard). This is just one discussion but it is fairly representative of Etienne's behavior and honestly, if it wasn't outdated, there's enough in it to warrant an indef ban until ED promises to actually abide by Wikipedia policies.

(work in progress)

Oh freakin' a, can we just close this. D.Creish, if you disagree with some of my edits, the article talk page is over that way -->. I'll be happy to discuss them. I am already discussing them. WP:AE is not a place to pursue grudges, but it is also not a place to try and recruit editors to your POV by bringing standard content disputes here.

Enough.Volunteer Marek (talk) 22:15, 14 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

And that para that you complain about *was* indeed based on a blog and a non reliable source. Two actually. The rest of the material did indeed have a couple reliable sources but their inclusion made no sense once you remove the non-reliably sourced part, mostly because the reliable sources were being used to cite unimportant details, while it was the non-reliable sources that were sourcing the fringe claims made. Anyway, really, this is stuff for the article talk page.Volunteer Marek (talk) 22:18, 14 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

D.Creish, I did not say youo held a grudge. I was referring to this report in general, and its originator in particular. Sorry if that wasn't clear. Anyway, the general point - that the issues you're bring up here, don't belong here but rather on the respective article pages. This isn't a place to hash out content issues.Volunteer Marek (talk) 22:57, 14 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by My very best wishes[edit]

The complaint suppose to be about my alleged and recent misbehavior in two subject areas, but I do not see it.

1. My most recent significant edit in EE area was two weeks ago, it was discussed and agreed about on article talk page. None of my recent edits in this area caused serious complaints or disputes. It seems that I actually have good collaborative relationships with many contributors in this area.
2. US politics. As a note of order, I did not receive a formal warning about discretionary sanctions in this area. Five days ago I made two reverts on page Debbie Wasserman Schultz. The edit was explained on article talk page [40]. This discussion (five days ago) helped me to realize that US politics is a highly disputed area. Since then I did not make a single revert on these pages and only took part in discussions.

No, I was never involved in any inappropriate activities with VM. I do not have any contacts off-wiki with any WP participants for many years; I never edited on anyone's behalf, and I never asked anyone to edit on my behalf.

Yes, I sometimes checked edits by VM, just as edits by many other contributors. This is not forbidden by policy. But I never followed someone's edits only to blindly revert or support them. I agreed or disagreed about something with others and discussed. Obviously, I had a lot less objections to editing by VM, who is smart, well-intended and a highly experienced contributor, than to editing by POV-pushing SPAs. Agreeing or disagreeing with someone is not a violation of policy. To the contrary, this is a productive collaboration.

Here is long list of alleged misdeeds created by ED. This is a misrepresentation by ED. He simply calls all legitimate edits "edit-war", even such as reverting edits by sockpuppets [41]. Other edits were also legitimate and reflect WP:Consensus and discussions on article talk pages. Actually, this is very common when a number of long-term contributors make similar edits on the same pages (yes, there were many other contributors on these pages, not only VM and myself, who were making the same changes). Why all of them are making more or less similar edits? That's because they are trying to reflect what reliable sources tell, and the sources tell something very definite on the subject. And how do I know about Polandball and other "obscure" subjects? Because they are not obscure to me.

@Coffee and Wordsmith. This my edit was made almost six months ago, and this is not a BLP violation. Neither this is a suggestion to violate policy. This is just a joke on a user talk page. Yes, I believe that BLP rules must be respected.

P.S. This request is unusual. What normally happens? There should be a serious content disagreement about something. Yes, we had a content disagreement with EtienneDolet and Athenean about page Vladimir Putin, but it was almost six months ago! Why they are binging this back citing an essay as a reason for sanctions? I did not edit page about Putin for a long time because of the previous complaints by these users. Athenean brings this diff as an evidence against me dated February. What's the problem? There are literally hundreds publications on this subject. (Here is one of them as a random example. I do not insist this should be included, but discussing something reliably published on the subject is legitimate.

@Lord Roem. Yes, this is excellent question: "Is this editor causing disruption and POV-pushing on the page?" - based on recent evidence. OK. Here are all my edits in main space during last five weeks. Only five of them have an overlap with editing by VM. Yes, many of these edits are reverts. However, some of them did not cause anyone's objections; others were discussed on article talk pages, which resulted in successful resolution of the disagreements by keeping either my or someone else version. Was that disruptive? Note that I edited very different subjects, which is hardly compatible with pushing any specific position. I tried to improve WP. My very best wishes (talk) 04:31, 9 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Lord Roem. The complainer brought only five my recent edits in the area of US politics as a proof or wrongdoing. All these edits were discussed on article talk pages, and I took part in these discussions. All of them were reverted or otherwise modified by other users. That's OK. I agree with WP:Consensus on these pages (meaning I agree with VM and some other contributors that changes made by D. Creish on Schultz page [42] are undue and represent a BLP violation, but will gladly leave this matter to community). I do not see what's the problem with my behavior. My very best wishes (talk) 11:24, 9 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• If it helps, I promise never look at the editing history of VM in the future, even though this is not forbidden by policy. That however, does not guarantee that I will not appear on the same pages as him, because we have a significant overlap of interest, including US politics. My very best wishes (talk) 12:38, 9 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Softlavender. Even if I was not interested in these subjects (yes, they are actually interesting to me), but only wanted to improve content as a generally disinterested contributor, that still would be OK. My very best wishes (talk) 13:45, 9 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by EvergreenFir[edit]

Sorry about the rollback. Finger slipped on phone. Corrected my mistake. Again my apologies. EvergreenFir (talk) 20:04, 7 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi[edit]

Just to point out that surely WP:EE does not offer the sanction (or, indeed, any sanction!) requested...? 21:21, 7 August 2016 (UTC)

Statement by The Wordsmith[edit]

I edit in the American Politics area, so I'm recused from commenting as an uninvolved administrator. However as an editor, those diffs are troubling. Particularly the one where MVBW indicates that we should willingly break WP:BLP because he thinks that a world leader is unworthy of having a compliant article, just because he doesn't like Putin. After that one, I don't think MVBW is capable of editing in compliance with policy. My suggestion would be for a 'topic ban for MVBW for Eastern Europe and post-1932 American Politics, and a 0RR restriction for Volunteer Marek for American Politics. The Wordsmith^{Talk to me} 21:19, 7 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Shock Brigade Harvester Boris[edit]

It's no secret that Marek and MVBW have similar views and thus makes edits from a similar perspective -- just as EtienneDolet has similar views as another group of editors and makes edits similar to their perspective. Are both of these groups tag teams? I don't think so.

The whole idea of "tag teams" is problematic enough that a highly respected editor and two-term Arbcom member nominated Wikipedia:Tag team for deletion. She is more articulate and concise than a science geek like me, so I'm going to quote her: "Many editors have identified that the 'characteristics' of tag teams can easily be applied to editors who share a common practice of editing in accordance with policy and thus make similar edits." In the real world there are people who have similar views on certain topics and thus tend to make similar edits (and yes, revert similar material). That's true whether the topic is Vladimir Putin or global warming or anything else on Wikipedia that parallels a real-world dispute.

I'm a little more concerned about the BLP implications of MVBW's Putin comment. However, it is worth reading that entire thread in context. I'm also somewhat concerned with EtienneDolet's repeated attempts to get VolunteerMarek sanctioned for something (whatever seems to fit at the moment). But that's just par for the course in this topic area, unfortunately. Shock Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 03:03, 8 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Athenean[edit]

@Lord Roem (talk · contribs): What's recent is the double-team edit warring at American Politics articles. Let's look at Debbie Wasserman Schultz, the most egregious example: In a 40 54 hour period between July 30th and August 1st (yes, Marek, August 1st US time, not August 2nd), Marek racks up 4 non-consecutive reverts: One [73], Two [74] [75] [76] (these 3 are consecutive), Three [77], and Four [78]. At this point, further reverts by Marek are risky. This is a fraught topic area and he has already edit-warred enough to possibly get blocked, even without breaching 3RR (Marek keeps involving BLP but this is debatable - the material is well-sourced). Then, less than 3 hours since Marek's most recent revert, MVBW appears out of nowhere and reverts to Marek's version twice [79] [80]. MVBW has never edited the article or its talkpage before, in fact his participation in US politics articles is minimal. Very fishy. I find it extremely unlikely that MVBW just happened to have the article watchlisted prior to this or just came to it by chance. And it's the same extraordinary coincidence at Donald Trump and Clinton Foundation. While the rest of the evidence may be somewhat dated, it is necessary because it points to a pattern: This same exact double-teaming has been going on since 2014, repeated across 40 articles. At first EE articles, but then it spread to other articles. Are we to believe that it's just due to common interests and overlapping watchlists? Human rights in Venezuela [81] [82]? John Maynard Keynes [83] [84]? Philip M. Breedlove [85] [86]? Where does it end? After March 2016, when EtienneDolet filed the RFAR, they dialed it down because they knew people were on to them. Now with Marek getting embroiled in some serious edit-wars in US politics, and several months since the RFAR, they're at it again. The mechanism of how they do so, whether off-wiki or just MVBW folliwing Marek's contribs, is entirely irrelevant. Keep in mind these users are not just editing together, they are edit-warring together. Edit-warring is disruptive, double team edit warring doubly so. Often times the material they remove is garbage and their edits justified, but often times it's not (as in the examples I give above), and they are clearly pushing POV. Often times it's against socks and SPAs, but often times it's against users in good standing. That said, I do agree with you that MVBW appears to be the more guilty party here (Marek's edit warring at US politics article is a separate matter, though no less significant). This problem can easily be solved with an interaction ban (even a one-sided one, since it appears it is MVBW who is the more guilty party), or simply a prohibition on MVBW making the same reverts as Marek (and this can even be amended to make exceptions for vandalism, reverting socks, BLP, Copyvio, etc.., basically wherever WP:3RRNO applies). But from experience, I can guarantee you 100% that unless some such measure is enacted, this kind of behavior will continue through the US election season and beyond. Athenean (talk) 05:04, 9 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Lord Roem (talk · contribs) As far as I can tell, there is a lot of back and forth between Marek (and after his reverts, MVBW) and several other users over whether the material belongs. No firm consensus, but the majority of users seem to think that some of this material (especially the booing off the stage) belongs in the article. Certainly no consensus to keep the material out. Athenean (talk) 05:57, 9 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I had hoped to keep the focus strictly on the double-teaming, but Marek's claim that he rigorously applies BLP policy to all BLP articles regardless of POV is untrue and needs to be rebutted. At Debbie Wasserman Schultz, he fights hard to keep out material that reflects negatively on the subject, in effect saying, "you can't add something without consensus (i.e. if I object to it) [87]. But a few months earlier at Vladimir Putin, it was the exact opposite: There Marek was fighting hard (and Mvbw double teaming with him) to keep in material that reflected negatively on Putin, even though it was only very tangentially related to Putin (criticism of the Russian bombing campaign in syria, the sources do not even mention Putin: [88] [89]). His argument there was "It doesn't matter if you object, the material is reliably sourced so it belongs, not a BLP issue." [90] [91] [92]. And sure enough, he and MVBW editwarred and double teamed to keep the material in [93] [94] [95] [96]. What happened to the need for consensus there? In other words, the 180 degree opposite of his arguments at Debbie Wasserman Schultz. One interpretation of BLP at the Putin article, the opposite interpretation at the DWS article. The POV these two editors push at US politics articles is moreover connected to Eastern Europe and no accident: Keep in mind Trump is accused of being "soft on Russia" and "in Putin's pocket", whereas Hillary Clinton has taken a hard line on Russia. This explains why he is so protective of the Hillary Clinton campaign articles, but the opposite at Donald Trump related articles (e.g. [97] - note one of the sources here is Politico.com, which he tried to remove at DWS arguing BLP [98]). The claim that he merely applies BLP fairly across the board to protect people who are unpopular from unfair criticism is total baloney. There is a POV, and it is unmistakable. Athenean (talk) 17:21, 9 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I just want to point out that the level of filibuster by Marek is reaching ridiculous levels. All the character assassination, name calling, shouting in ALLCAPS, and tl;dr walls of text thrown up by this user are attempts to divert attention from the subject of this report: That he and My very best wishes have been and still are edit-warring in a coordinated fashion across wikipedia. Because there is simply no way for him to disprove it, he is resorting to what i have dubbed "the full-court press filibuster" (I've seen it before, many times): Go on the offensive, throw up walls of text one after another, and try to change the subject by attacking the opponent's character relentlessly, especially with copious untruths (which will force him to respond so as to set the record straight, therefore resulting in an even longer report, and also change the subject). Above all, constantly spin, distort and exaggerate. Justs several examples where Marek has distorted and exaggerate something so much so as to make it an outright lie (these are off the top of my head, I'm sure there's lots more but there's walls of text to wade through):

1) Marek's version of the "truth": "The Arbs rejected this case on lack of merit". The actual truth: Some did, some didn't. [99]. Most declined because "the topic already covered by discretionary sanctions."

2) Marek's version of the "truth": "EtienneDolet keeps bringing this same material to different noticeboards over and over again", such as AN3 and AN/I. The actual truth: EtienneDolet never showed this evidence at AN3 or AN/I, or any other venue. EtienneDolet did refer Marek to AN3 for edit-warring, and to AN/I for gross personal attacks, but that is a completely separate matter. This evidence was never shown at any of those venues, only a very very small part of it at the ARBCOM case.

3) Marek's version of the "truth": "I apply WP:BLP in a neutral fashion across the board". The actual truth: Marek cynically uses BLP selectively, to push POV (see above for a thorough debunking of this claim, using Debbie Wasserman Schultz and Vladimir Putin as examples).

Just the lies, distortions, insults, and filibuster by Marek in this AE thread alone are block worthy, never mind the edit-warring in a coordinated fashion across wikipedia. Athenean (talk) 06:45, 11 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Volunteer Marek asks how is it possible to disprove the accusations leveled against him. Easy: How about not having article after article where one of you gets into an edit-war and the other miraculously appears within minutes/hours to revert for you even though he has never edited the article before. Of course, if that what you've been doing over and over again for years, then no, you can't disprove it. You can only resort to filibuster, spinning, distorting, and character assassination, and hope to get away with it. Athenean (talk) 07:18, 11 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Lizzius[edit]

Having reviewed the diffs provided in evidence, and the ones provided in the statements of many users here, there is no meat in this case (Athenean, your numerous linked diffs showing a "protracted edit war" cover weeks of edits to multiple articles and to my eyes absolutely no evidence of repeated content removal or what I believe WP policy would define as edit warring).

The "compelling" evidence here shows nothing more than an overlap in editing interests. No more or less severe than many editors (and admins) across this site with similar watchlists/interests/access to the news. Unless there is hard evidence of collusion between these two (apart from the fact that they both inhabit Earth, probably have access to Western media and thus tend to follow a similar sense of Zeitgeist when it comes to their individual interests, and happen to have a political ideology that departs from the sense of the filing editor) this should be chalked up to nothing more than partisan bickering. Throw on top of that the history with the filing party here (and a curious opinion from an "involved" administrator, followed by another administrator who could seemingly be cast into the same collusion bucket if the definition is allowed to be cast so broadly), and you have one curious set of circumstances here that absolutely shouldn't result in any sort of sanction against MVBW or VM.

Further reply to Athenean, the diff you highlighted as further evidence that this is just the proverbial tip of the iceberg is indeed listed in ED's evidence page. It also seems the Arbitrators' opinion on dismissing the case were mixed, with some expressing they felt the case essentially reduced to overlapping interests. It isn't fair to consider VM's characterization of their opinion purposefully malicious, anymore than yours might also be considered so. Also (and this was first linked by another editor in the filing you referenced), if you run an interaction analyzer on you and ED it is comparable ([100]) to the analysis performed on MVBW and VM. Surely this could compel you to see how easy it is for editors with similar interests and world views to end up editing very similar articles? Have you found any truly compelling evidence that would demonstrate actual, coordinated collusion? Lizzius (talk) 13:56, 8 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Having read how this has evolved, I'm disappointed in what seems like baiting to evoke a response from VM. The congruent calls to both shorten his statement and reply to increasingly pointed questions has contributed to the now querulous tenor of this whole conversation. VM is understandably frustrated as this has lead to what seems like dog-piling in this space over something that could very easily be reduced to sharing a watchlist. Some even from a user who was banned on this very page from a topic area where the editor obviously clashed with VM. How is any of this defensible? Hopefully this is closed quickly by a fair-minded administrator to prevent further damage to what is obviously a well-intentioned editor. Lizzius (talk) 15:53, 9 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Roxy the dog[edit]

It's called a Watchlist. -Roxy the dog™ bark 14:15, 8 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by OID[edit]

I would like to echo Boris here, ED has been trying to get VM sanctioned for something for quite awhile now. Given this has already been brought up and rejected by Arbcom, and there is no additional considerations here, some form of forum-shopping warning needs to be given. Only in death does duty end (talk) 14:31, 8 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by D.Creish[edit]

I encountered Volunteer Marek and MVBW on Debbie Wasserman-Schultz. My interaction with MVBW was limited to his reverts and some talk page comments (more on that later) - most of my interaction was with VM. I see a pattern of disingenuousness from VM, stretching the truth or outright misstating things to help his argument. I'll give examples:

• In this enforcement request he initially claims EtienneDolet was "told by the ArbCom (!) to drop it" (it being these accusations.) When it's pointed out in fact he was told AE was the appropriate venue (rather than the case request he'd filed), VM removes the accusation replacing the text with the message "(text removed to shorten)" when really text was removed because it was untrue. If it hadn't been caught by another editor it would have remained and helped his case.

• On Debbie Wasserman-Schultz he accuses editor Activist of canvassing:

I just noticed that User:Activist in this message on their talk page [6] pinged several users to alert them about the presence of the disagreement above [...] This is a textbook example of improper WP:CANVASSing, followed by tag-team reverts. This sabotages the process of consensus, leading to false notion of consensus.

I point out that the pinged editors were all active participants in the discussion prior to the ping so while it may be TAGTEAM or some other discouraged practice it doesn't seem like canvassing.

He never follows up on the canvassing accusation (I assume because it's meritless) but continues to use it as a bludgeon to dismiss any consensus involving the pinged editors: "These editors are exactly the ones you canvassed on your talk page to help you in your edit war", "As to consensus, as has already been pointed out several times, several of the participants here were explicitly WP:CANVASSed here to edit war for this stuff" and reverting consensus edits with edit summaries claiming the false canvassing accusation as justification: [101] [102]

My interaction with MVBW was more limited. He was involved in a discussion about whether to include Wasserman-Schultz being booed off stage at the DNC in her article. The incident was covered in all major sources and led to to her not gaveling-in the convention (a first in DNC history.) A well-known political reporter described it as "one of the most painful moments I have ever witnessed." Seems pretty significant right? VM didn't think so and one he reached three reverts neither did MVBW.

MVBW's talk page comments were generic, they could have been cut and pasted (changing the subject) from almost any BLP dispute: [103] [104]. He dismisses the incident as a "minor detail". When I attempt to understand his reasoning, asking if it's the boo-ing or the gaveling he considers minor I get no response.

These incidents were (I believe) my first and only interaction with these editors. D.Creish (talk) 06:22, 9 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Reply

@Volunteer Marek: the pattern of half-truths continues in your response to my post here. You say:

The texts that D.Creish and Activist kept on inserting were/are a BLP violation. The first one concerns a frivolous lawsuit

At no point have I inserted or restored any text concerning a lawsuit.

Indeed, I took it to WP:BLPN myself: [62]

That's entirely true, but you leave out the part where you didn't notify any article participant about the posting. Didn't you find it strange that while we were all actively participating on the article's talk page, none of us participated in the BLPN discussion?

And let's look at your BLPN posting, which ends with:

One of them, D.Creish, has made BLP violations on related articles as well.

There is no basis for this claim whatsoever. I notice I wasn't pinged either so I couldn't refute the false claim. Very disappointing. D.Creish (talk) 07:40, 9 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

EDIT: Regarding the erroneous "BLP violation" accusation, VM's explained he had me confused with another editor. D.Creish (talk) 21:16, 10 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Continued Questionable Editing

VM continues the pattern of misleading edit summaries I outline above.

Here he removes criticism of the Clinton Foundation sourced to the NY Times and Boston Globe, with the summary: "POV section based mostly on non-RS (with a few RS thrown in as spice). Wikipedia is not a vehicle for pushing political agitprop."

Next he traces the criticism to the article Clinton Cash and in probably the worst of his edits removes the entire section on Stephanopoulos. His misleading edit-summary claims "this whole thing is based on a blog and a non-RS (WFB)" meanwhile the actual sources for that section are (or were):

• Politico blog
• NY Times
• NY Times (again)
• NY Times (again)
• CNN Money

His article editing seems to focus largely on Hillary Clinton, her associates and opponents with a reasonably apparently aim.

Reviewing his edits to Debbie Wasserman Schultz for example I find edits where he's added positive content, more where he's removed negative or critical content but I can't find a single instance where he added or expanded critical content (@Volunteer Marek: I would appreciate a diff that contradicts this.)

I see the same pattern in his edits to Hillary Clinton presidential campaign, 2016 and Clinton Foundation and 2016 Democratic National Committee email leak and 2016 Democratic National Convention.

One might think it's a sensitivity to BLP standards but if we examine his edits to Donald Trump and Donald Trump presidential campaign, 2016 the exact opposite is true. Every edit I examined was either neutral or critical.

The more I see the more I'm convinced VM should not be editing political topics. D.Creish (talk) 21:50, 14 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

In response to this section VM says:

WP:AE is not a place to pursue grudges, but it is also not a place to try and recruit editors to your POV by bringing standard content disputes here.

It's ridiculous to claim I have a grudge against you. I disagreed with some of your edits to Wasserman Schultz but agreed with others (the removal of the lawsuit for example.) That article has been stable for some time I don't believe I've interacted with you in any other articles, recently or in the past. It's only since I've examined your edits in the context of this request that I've come regard the problem more fundamentally. AE, as I understand it, is exactly the place to discuss long-term patterns of editing and behavioral problems in topics covered by discretionary sanctions. D.Creish (talk) 22:32, 14 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by uninvolved Softlavender[edit]

Not being a Putin fan I've been pretty much indifferent to (if not supportive of) the obvious tag-teaming these two editors engage in and have engaged in for a long time. But when it spreads beyond the subject of Putin, Ukraine, and Eastern Europe in general, and spreads to dozens and dozens of articles, and articles and subjects which Myverybestwishes has never edited in or shown the slightest interest in, then in my opinion something definitely has to be done to stop it. I'd like to address myself specifically to Lord Roem: Having been nearly absent for so long on Wikipedia (indeed, in the six years since you've been here you've made less than 8,500 edits), you've not been subject to, or privy to, the frequent drama that surrounds these two editors. I believe the community is tired of it and that it needs to stop. Turning a blind eye and/or saying that VM can't help it if MVBW follows him around isn't going to solve or resolve the situation. If it isn't somehow resolved here, I think it's going to end up back at ArbCom, and I don't think it needs to. Softlavender (talk) 09:18, 9 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Doc9871[edit]

I said from the beginning of my interactions with Volunteer Marek that he should have been topic-banned from this area for having a hopelessly biased, highly aggressive pattern of enforcing opinions over encyclopedic material. Volunteer Marek loses all credibility with this edit.[105] Removing cited material and using the edit summary to say what he said? The next edit is no better.[106] This is not encyclopedic behavior, folks! Wake the hell up! Really just terrible "editing". Doc talk 09:46, 9 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• This destroyed the last shred of credibility for me.[107] Folks, it's not "outing" to mention the name of a previous account that this one operated. All anyone has to do is go to the beginning of the user's contribution history and look how they used to sign. For instance, here.[108]. Volunteer Marek used to be known as Radeksz. It's not "outing" to point that out at all. To erroneously revert and personally attack the user is very disturbing behavior for an editor who's been here this long and claims to not get into PA's. It's quite sad, really. Outing is a very serious allegation of harassment. The freely available fact that the username "Radeksz" was used does not constitute any actual "personal information" that would have otherwise (hopefully) already been oversighted. An actual outing attempt goes well beyond what was alleged to be outing in that diff. Doc talk 09:04, 11 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• "On July 22, 2016, speaking before the Florida delegation in Philadelphia, Wasserman Schultz was "booed off stage". Shortly thereafter, it was announced that Wasserman Schultz had 'abruptly' cancelled plans to gavel open the convention." VM removed this cited material multiple times on the grounds that it allegedly violated BLP (i.e. here[109] and here[110] and here[111]). I see absolutely nothing in those sentences that even approaches a BLP violation. Not even close. Why wasn't he blocked for those edits? How does he get to decide what violates BLP and what doesn't violate BLP when he clearly doesn't know what a BLP violation even is? Mainstream left-leaning sources like the NYT[112] and MSNBC[113] extensively covered it. A BLP concern? Hogwash. The fact that it's in her article right now, replete with the "booed off stage" phrase intact, should demonstrate that VM's BLP concern was a red herring all along. "Whitewashing" does not equate to NPOV. Doc talk 11:40, 11 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by MelanieN[edit]

I was pinged to this discussion by VM, I guess as a kind of character witness. So I should be considered as an involved admin, or better as just another editor. I am not familiar with the articles under discussion here (Vladimir Putin and Debbie Wasserman Schultz) so I cannot speak to the specific allegations regarding those articles. But I have observed and worked with both VM and MVBW over the past few months at several Donald Trump related articles. I have not observed, and cannot now find, any evidence of collusion or coordination between them at those pages. I have never had to caution either of them for their editing. Both of them use the talk page a lot - more than actual edits to the articles - and their contributions at the talk pages are constructive. That's all I have to say, except to note the allegations of forum shopping on the part of the OP; that would concern me if I were evaluating this case. --MelanieN (talk) 15:09, 9 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Neutrality[edit]

I'll keep this brief: I agree with the sentiments expressed by MelanieN and Drmies here. Editing in areas of overlapping interests, using the article watchlist, or checking users' contribs do not constitute evidence of improper collusion or meatpuppetry. This is a collaborative enterprise.

As a general rule (though not an invariable one), when multiple editors jump in to revert the same BLP-implicating content in good faith, the natural assumption (a rebuttable presumption, so to speak) is that the material is contentious and bears discussion—not that there is some impropriety going on.

I'll also call users' attention to the fact that Wikipedia:Tag team is an essay, not a policy or guideline, and the footnote to that essay states: "as there is no consensus regarding the merits of this essay in namespace. Editors have voiced a concern that the "characteristics" of tag teams can easily be applied to editors who share a common practice of editing in accordance with policy, and that the essay can be used as a weapon against editors who are acting in accordance with Wikipedia's editing policies to cast aspersions..." Neutrality^talk 16:51, 9 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Iryna Harpy[edit]

I've been watching this and, while I've thought it best to bite my tongue, the latest comparison comments and diffs by ED regarding genocide articles has prompted me to comment on how badly wiki tools can be misused in order to evaluate the contributions by long time editors who work on articles constantly. While I don't have any personal problems in working with ED (or Athenean for that matter), I do feel inclined to think there is GRUDGE involved. While ED's belief that there's tag-teaming at play here is undoubtedly good faith, he has the wrong end of the stick as to how MVBW became involved with genocide topics (aside from his work on "Holodomor"): it was through me that his interest was piqued. Please see this discussion on the "Genocides in history" talk page here. It was in early April - correlating with MVBW's foray into the 1971 Bangladesh genocide and other specific articles. I've worked collaboratively with VM and MVBW for years, but that does not make editors who have the intestinal fortitude to edit controversial and heavy traffic articles component parts of various tag teams. Interest and mix 'n match editing is how our watchlists and contributions grow. Trying to make mud stick by rummaging around without comparing edits against an increase in all activity on any given article at any point in time is an easy way around of finding Moby Dick in the Bible and getting rid of the competition. As has already been noted by others, the tools you've used to create comparisons could be easily used against you and Athenean (or any number of editors) to 'prove' you're a tag team. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 04:16, 11 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Kingsindian[edit]

(I have had very little contact with VM, a bit more with MvBW. I have argued with the latter on a few pages; they have a tendency to revert a bit too much, but are also very willing to discuss on the talkpage. One particular page The Harvest of Sorrow was mentioned by ED in their remarks.)

Can we separate out the two things? Volunteer Marek has stated that he does not collude with MvBW off-wiki and MvBW has denied collusion as well. Absent evidence to the contrary, this part should be the default finding. Furthermore, VM has stated that they do not follow MvBW's contributions (and there has been no evidence to the contrary). MvBW does follow VM's contributions: this is self-admitted and fairly common (I do it myself sometimes).

I share ED's annoyance at this kind of reverting by multiple people. It is fairly common in contentious areas, where views are very polarized - so there are really two camps - and thus reverts by people with a certain viewpoint seem like getting around WP:1RR restrictions. How to fix it? The overall solution is simple: the participants should follow WP:BRD (not a policy, but a good practice) - discuss on the talkpage after the first edit-and-revert. In particular, MvBW should refrain from reverting the third time, as documented in ED's evidence. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 13:09, 11 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by SPECIFICO[edit]

It's very disappointing to see that the resident Admins here would keep this complaint open for so long when there's been no evidence to document the alleged violation for which they are authorized to sanction.

It's far too common that a battleground editor or group with a grudge (acronym "gag") use AE to pursue other editors. Too often the Admins here seem unable to recognize this for what it is and to shut down these nasty threads. It undermines community respect for the process. This needs to be closed toot sweet. SPECIFICO talk 13:41, 12 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Tiptoethrutheminefield[edit]

So here we are yet again: VM, unwashed since 2009, as usual professing to have the cleanest hands on Wikipedia ever, and his ardent follower MVBW with his strange routine of retiring and then unretiring and then retiring and then unretiring and then retiring and then unretiring. I find it strange that what for other editors would be condemned as activities promoting edit warring is for these two editors always dismissed as just a case of editors having "similar views" and watchlists. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 17:00, 14 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Result concerning Volunteer Marek and My very best wishes[edit]

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

• The evidence I've looked through so far is damning. I hope Volunteer Marek and My very best wishes can explain why they've clearly tag-teamed articles during edit wars for years, and why they continue to do so to this day. I'd also be very interested to hear why My very best wishes thinks that Vladimir Putin, the leader of the second most powerful nation on the globe, is exempted from the BLP policy. — Coffee // have a cup // beans // 12:38, 7 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Setting the concerns of tag-teaming aside, this type of childish behavior on a world-leader's article potentially merits a ban (@Volunteer Marek: for starting it and @My very best wishes: for continuing it) from the Eastern European arena. And I'm also considering if the clear, slow moving edit-war on the DNC chair's article (assisted by Mvbw), coupled with edit summaries like this one (which is VM making legal accusations against a major campaign, that have not been confirmed and are not supported by the sources in the relevant article), is merit for bans for post-1932 American Politics as well. VM has a clear POV, and that is quite troubling considering the topics he's editing. The same applies for Mvbw. — Coffee // have a cup // beans // 07:32, 9 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    • @Volunteer Marek: First, shorten your complete statement to 500 words or we'll be forced to hat them for you. Second, it was clearly a pointy edit; removing something you stated in the summary you, yourself, didn't think should go - just because the other editor had removed something you thought should stay. I consider edits like that to be below the level of maturity required here, and do not consider calling a spade a spade to be anything close to a "personal attack". Also, I find it necessary to remind you that there is no statute of limitations here, so any comments regarding the timeline without addressing the real issue are unwanted and unhelpful. — Coffee // have a cup // beans // 08:20, 9 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
      • As to the "hack" allegation; one source positing that it is possible the law was broken does not give you a free pass to go around claiming that the staffers actually hacked into the server. The relevant legal definitions can be found at this site, since you seem to be unaware of the legal ramifications that term entails. — Coffee // have a cup // beans // 08:40, 9 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
      • @Volunteer Marek: I never said "in the article", so stop using false quotation marks. I said "in the relevant article", and linked to that relevant article (NGP VAN). And that Newsweek source you just linked to never once used the word "hack", and in no way adds to your argument here. But, that's besides the point. Edit summaries are held to the BLP policy just like the article's themselves, and you aren't allowed to make statements of legal certainty that aren't actually certain. Especially, when stating a claim that someone has actually committed a crime. So far you have yet to convince me that your edits in this matter or at Putin's article are allowed per policy. Until you do that, my consideration of a ban still stands. — Coffee // have a cup // beans // 09:07, 9 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    • @Volunteer Marek: "It was just an edit summary which pointed out the logic of a particular argument." - Are you claiming that the edit summary was not for the edit you were making, or are you claiming that you didn't state in the summary that you removed that text to make a point (which you didn't even agree with)? — Coffee // have a cup // beans // 08:33, 9 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Volunteer Marek: and @My very best wishes: Please mind the word limit of 500 words per statement and trim down or hat longer sections as appropriate. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 21:15, 7 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• I'll go over EtienneDolet's more extensive evidence page, but so far I'm not seeing anything that would merit a sanction. There's no evidence of direct collusion to evade 1RR and--absent that--I'm not seeing a specific disruptive act that would merit a topic ban. Usually we have conduct issues in how an editor interacts with others on a topic (sometimes an outgrowth of POV-pushing) or intensive edit warring. What's happened in the last several months since ArbCom rejected the case? As for this Putin BLP thing, in context it appears to be more of a joke or sarcastic than literally "Putin doesn't fall under the BLP policy," which would clearly be ridiculous. I'd advise Volunteer Marek to calm down and substantially reduce his response per this page's rules; otherwise, I'm not inclined to impose a sanction at this time. Lord Roem ~ (talk) 03:10, 8 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think I should elaborate on my concern with the request here. It seems to rely on the assumption that MVBW follows Marek around with the intent to get around revert restrictions. Absent some evidence that Marek is telling MVBW to do this, I don't know why it's Marek's fault that another editor is following them around. I totally understand the basis of concern behind tag-teaming: it's a way for editors to push a position across pages by working together and never breaking the letter of the rules. On the other hand, how does one establish that two editors are working together? I think it's clear MVBW has some bizarre editing behavior that--yes, does--appear to indicate very similar watchlists. How is that, in and of itself, a sanctionable offense? If the AC establishes some standard to evaluate tag-teaming, then I'd be more comfortable enforcing this request. Otherwise, our go to is the simple question "Is this editor causing disruption and POV-pushing on the page?" I may need to look over some of the recent evidence, but my initial analysis is that there's nothing particularly disruptive in the edits being done. Is there anything recent, like in the last month, that would justify a sanction? Frankly, a lot of what's presented seems stale. Lord Roem ~ (talk) 03:11, 9 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    • Marek, could you hat some of your material and also respond to the Debbie Wasserman Schultz edits? Apart from the tag-teaming stuff, I'm sure you can see why so many reverts on that page of controversial material could be concerning. Lord Roem ~ (talk) 05:12, 9 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    • Also, @Athenean: could you, or another editor, give some context on what the talk page discussion was like regarding these reverts? It seems a lot of the material being removed was critical coverage of Schultz. What was the consensus at the time, if any? Lord Roem ~ (talk) 05:15, 9 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
      • I'm on the fence here on a few things and would love some other uninvolved admins to give their thoughts-- @Laser brain:, @Bishonen:, @NeilN:, @The Blade of the Northern Lights:, @RegentsPark: --Lord Roem ~ (talk) 05:01, 12 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• I've been on both sides with both groups of editors, and I do not see evidence of tag teaming, nor do I see evidence of disruption by either Marek or his sock My Very Best Wishes. VM has a tendency to be a hothead, but he's not the only one, and the diffs I looked at (not all the diffs provided here, but a couple of random ones) prove him to work within policy. The edit to the Putin lead, for instance, makes a point but I wouldn't call it POINTy (even if that sounds contradictory), and this is stuff that has been discussed on the talk page. MVBW's BLP comment is not to be taken literally, that's obvious to me. Drmies (talk) 16:04, 9 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• There are some things in evidence that make me blow air out of my nose, but nothing I would say is sanctionable. Tag-team editing is a very difficult thing to characterize, let alone prove. My watchlist is full of pages across many domains where there are discernible groups of good faith editors acting similarly. I don't think we want to get into the business of calling that sanctionable behavior. With due respect to the filer, I understand why you perceive collusion, but you'd need a lot more specific and non-circumstantial evidence. --Laser brain (talk) 13:30, 12 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• Aggressive editing, yes. Sanctionable, no. The heart of this complaint is the 'tag-teaming' but, like it or not, there are sub-networks of collaborative editors who look at each others edits and then appear in odd places to comment, revert and become part of the discussion. Unless there is evidence of off-wiki collaboration, this isn't really sanctionable. --regentspark (comment) 13:59, 12 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• Tag-teaming can be disruptive but I don't see that here. Unrelated to this issue, we have a group of great content builders who work together and support each other because they have similar views on article content. We can't call that kind of cooperation "tag-teaming". With this matter, from the diffs I've looked at, Mvbw uses different reasons than VM for his reverts. If he stops doing that, then we have a good case for tag-teaming. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 14:23, 12 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• I'm closing this with no action based on the consensus that the complaint doesn't rise to anything sanctionable. Of course, this is without prejudice to future issues, if any arise. Lord Roem ~ (talk) 01:09, 15 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]