To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).

Appealing user

JRHammond (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – JRHammond (talk) 04:41, 6 September 2010 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Sanction being appealed

Indefinite ban from editing Six Day War article and participating on Six Day War talk page.[1]

Administrator imposing the sanction

Wgfinley (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)

Notification of that administrator

The appealing editor is asked to notify the administrator who made the enforcement action of this appeal, and then to replace this text with a diff of that notification. The appeal may not be processed otherwise. If a block is appealed, the editor moving the appeal to this board should make the notification.

Statement by User:JRHammond[edit]

(1) I was banned on the stated pretext of "tendentious editing". Amended: "Tendenitious Editing" is defined as "editing which is partisan, biased or skewed taken as a whole. It does not conform to the neutral point of view, and fails to do so at a level more general than an isolated comment that was badly thought out." User:Wgfinley does not even attempt to substantiate that my editing "is partisan, biased or skewed" or that it "does not conform to the neutral point of view" in his stated argument for my ban, and he would be hard-pressed to do so. Moreover, WP:TE states explicitly: "It is important to recognize that everybody has bias. Whether it is the systemic bias of demographics or a political opinion, few people will edit subjects in which they have no interest. Bias is not in and of itself a problem in editors, only in articles." WP:TE applies to editing of articles, not participation on Talk pages. I have not edited the article in question, and could not if I wanted to, as it is protected. I therefore further move that the ban be overturned on the basis of a spurious pretext.

(2) The imposing admin, User:Wgfinley has demonstrated a pattern of abuse of authority and prejudice towards me, including previously blocking me on a spurious pretext (successfully overturned by appeal, with the deciding admin stating: "I see nothing in JRHammond's comments at that talk page that warrant a block, let alone a one week block, and particularly a "cool down" block.")[2] and violating WP:OUTING by posting personal information about me I did not share with others myself.[3] Given this pattern of behavior on the part of the admin, I move that the ban be overturned on the basis of prejudicial treatment.

(3) This current ban follows this pattern of abuse of authority. For example, User:Wgfinley alleges: you will be disruptive if you consider it necessary you will venue shop by abusing the 'editprotected' template and believe proper usage of it is "unreasonable". This is a gross wilfull and deliberate mischaracterization of the facts, and demonstrably so. User:Amatulic had arrived on the page and outlined the proper use of the template. Contrary to expressing that I "believe proper usage of" the template "is 'unreasonable'", I responded to observe that I had followed that procedure exactly, and what I actually said was "I'm using the tag precisely as it was intended, as you yourself just outlined. And, as I said, I will continue to employ the tag as it was intended to be used." User:Amatulic replied, "JRHammond, I am gratified that you have agreed to follow the procedure I outlined..."[4] User:Amatulic went on to express his personal view that it was not enough that no objections were raised to the proposed edit for which I'd employed the template, arguing that "You won't find an administrator on Wikipedia who will agree to a request to edit a contentious article without clear positive evidence of consensus." I disagreed with that interpretation of its use and observed the fact that I had already come to an understanding with another admin, User:MSGJ, who had already, in fact, agreed to implement my requested edit if it remained unopposed after more time was allowed to give others opportunity to review it ("I've invited other editors to comment on your proposal and if there is no response in a couple of days I can make the edit.")[5] It was this situation that User:Wgfinley deliberately tries to mischaracterize as some kind of rebelliousness or "disruptive" behavior in an attempt to offer a pretext for this ban. Given User:Wgfinley's previous pattern of abuse of authority, along with such deliberate distortions of my comments as this, I reiterate that I move that the ban be overturned on the basis of demonstrably prejudicial treatment. JRHammond (talk) 04:39, 6 September 2010 (UTC)Reply[reply]

User:PhilKnight stated: "JRHammond's talk page conduct has been disruptive, and he has yet to accept that he needs to modify his approach. Accordingly, I consider the indefinite article + talk page ban to be within admin discretion, although it's longer than I would've applied." (1) PhilKnight has not substantively addressed the basis for my appeal, and (2) PhilKnight has not substantiated his claim that my "talk page conduct has been disruptive" with even a single example.

User:CIreland stated: "I concur with this assessment." (1) CIreland has not substantively addressed the basis for my appeal, and (2) CIreland has not substantiated the claim that my "talk page conduct has been disruptive" with even a single example.

User:EdJohnston stated: "The reopened appeal by JRHammond suggests he has learned nothing at all from the last one. His mission on Wikipedia is (seemingly) to pound away until he can force his views into the Six-Day War article. I support the indefinite ban from article + talk page. You would think that JRH could manage to occasionally say *something* diplomatic that could lighten up the image that we have of him, but that never occurs. 'Harmonious' is not a word in his vocabulary." (1) EdJohnston has not substatively addressed the basis for my appeal, and (2) I reject this characterization of my work, which is a wholly unsubstantiated opinion that completely disregards the actual merit of the improvement I've tried to make to the article -- yes, which I have fought hard for, and rightfully so. As for the suggestion I should be "diplomatic" and "harmonious", that is very difficult to do when others refuse to substantively address my arguments on the basis of the facts and logic contained therein, preferring to make unsubstantiated and prejudicial statements against my character (such as EdJohnston remarks here), which falls within the definition of the fallacy of ad hominem, and when I am constantly harassed by User:Wgfinley and banned or blocked on spurious pretexts, such as those underlying this current ban, the facts of which none of the admins here have yet to address (see above).

Look, if I've done something admins think was inappropriate, I'd be happy to acknowledge my error and apologize to anyone I may have offended. However, all of these judgments by these admins simply seem to assume the accuracy and legitimacy of User:Wgfinley's stated pretexts for this ban, which I have shown indisputably to be spurious, such as by the fact that Wgfinley felt it necessary to manufacture a deliberate falsehood in order to support his case for why I should be banned; and they offer nothing beyond what Wgfinley has already offered by way of substantiation for these characterizations. This is completely unreasonable. Is it too much to ask that admins judging my appeal be reasonable and actually substantively address the basis for my appeal? Is it too much to ask that if accusations against my character and behavior are to be offered as a basis to deny my appeal that they actually be substantiated with at least a single example? It is not. JRHammond (talk) 00:47, 7 September 2010 (UTC)Reply[reply]

NOTICE!!! ALL INVOLVED EDITORS, PLEASE READ THIS!!!

Once again, all I'm asking for is a single example to be presented to substantiate the claims made against me of even a single instance where I did something in violation of Wikipedia policy that would warrant this ban. I can't very well say, "I'm sorry, I won't do that again" if I don't know what it is I've done that would warrant my appeal being denied. And it goes without saying that if nobody can present even a single example of an instance where I did something warranting this ban that my appeal should be approved. This is a perfectly reasonable request, and it is perfectly unreasonable for those judging this case to refuse it. JRHammond (talk) 14:15, 7 September 2010 (UTC)Reply[reply]

User:Wgfinley stated, at the time he notified me of his ban against me on spurious pretexts, including willful and deliberate falsehoods and mischaracterizations: "I will be willing to consider lifting this ban if you state you can work with other editors and avoid tendentious editing."

I hereby state that I will continue to work with other editors to improve the article, as I have always done, and that I will continue, as I have always done, in a good faith effort to do so in accordance with Wikipedia policies and guidelines. JRHammond (talk) 00:44, 8 September 2010 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Reply to "JRHammond's Epiphany" by Wgfinley

(1) I was invited to re-appeal when the former was closed. If you have an issue with my taking up that invitation, take it up with the admin who invited me to re-appeal.

(2) See (1).

(3) Regarding my having allegedly "replied sharply", I welcome others to follow the diffs and judge whether expressing gratitude and an explanation as to how I had allegedly misused the template,[6], observing the fact that it is not reasonable to support opinions not with fact, but with more opinions,[7] requesting that an example of any violation of Wikipedia policy be presented to me,[8][9][10][11], requesting an admin to support me in that reasonable request,[12] observing that WP guidelines exist to foster improvement to articles,[13], clarifying a point of logic,[14], and inviting someone to point out any error in fact or logic in an argument,[15] would substantiate that characterization, or whether any of those comments warrants a punishable offense.

(4) I haven't "accused" everyone here of not answering my questions. I simply observed the fact that I have repeatedly requested that people making prejudicial remarks against me substantiate them by pointing to a single example where those characterizations would apply, and have had that reasonable request repeatedly and explicitly refused. Neither have I "accused" people of being hypocrites. I simply observed the fact that refusing to answer questions asked in good faith is itself a characteristic of the very thing I'm accused of, Tenentious Editing, which, by definition, makes those refusing this reasonable request hypocrites.

(5) Speaking of hypocrisy, Wgfinley asserts I violated WP:CIVIL in doing so; yet he lied, falsely asserting I had declared my intention to abuse the editprotected template contrary to its intended use (when the fact of the matter is just the opposite, that I had explicitly stated my intent to use it as it was intened to be used) to support this ban against me, as I've already demonstrated incontrovertibly, and as anyone here may verify for themselves, which is certainly a blatant violation of WP:CIVIL. I, unlike Wgfinley, don't find it necessary to lie in order to make my points or support my positions.

(6) It's quite true that I've repeatedly requested that actual evidence be presented that would support the accusations underlying this ban. It's equally true that that request has been repeatedly explicitly rejected. Wgfinley is an exception in that he at least offers diffs he claims supports his accusations. Others may judge whether those diffs are fairly characterized by Wgfinley. I would once again point to his pattern of prejudicial treatment against me (see documentation above and below, in his section), and the demonstrable lie he manufactured in order to support this very ban, all of which is ample evidence that this ban is inappropriate, and ample evidence that Wgfinley, in all his hypocrisy, is guilty of the exact things he accuses me of, WP:WIKILAWERING, WP:CIVIL, and WP:TE. My appeal should be granted on that basis alone. JRHammond (talk) 04:03, 8 September 2010 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Reply to BorisG

Having been informed of WP:NPA by Enigma, which says "Comment on the content, not the contributor", I apologize for calling BorisG a hypocrite, and I'll rephrase: BorisG, by saying he supports this ban on the basis that I've repeated myself, when he has also repeated himself, is applying a hypocritical standard.

Now, BorisG, regarding your logical fallacy with regard to my proposed edit, again, the question is not whether the source supported the statement or not, but whether the article accurately characterizes the UNEF mandate in compliance with WP:NPOV and WP:WEIGHT, and it demonstrably does not, which is verifiable simply by looking at the actual mandate itself. I gave you the links and excerpts. It's simple: the article characterizes the mandate as being to prevent fedayeen attacks on Israel, without saying anything about preventing Israeli attacks on Egypt. Yet the mandate itself, which was to prevent raids from both sides, does not even mention fedayeen attacks, but does refer specifically to Israel's attack on Egypt. This is a clear cut case of bias, and it needs to be corrected to accurately reflect the mandate. My proposed edit is a perfectly reasonable and perfectly neutral alternative. JRHammond (talk) 12:15, 8 September 2010 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Dear JRHammond your apology is not accepted. Never in my life I have been called a hypocrite, in real life anyway. There is not a shred of substance in your personal attack. I do not want to talk to you anymore. Bye. - BorisG (talk) 13:23, 8 September 2010 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Fact: You said you supported this ban because I had repeated an argument. Fact: You had also repeated an argument (a logical fallacy). Fact: You therefore, by definition, applied a hypocritical standard. Elementary. If you don't like people pointing out your hypocrisy, then simply don't apply a double standard. You're the problem, not me. JRHammond (talk) 00:10, 9 September 2010 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Statement by WGFinley[edit]

Fellow admins, we have the wrong version.

Thank you.

--WGFinley (talk) 04:50, 6 September 2010 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I agree with Phil and CIreland's comments below, they were what I was thinking of when I worded the ban:[16]

Tendentious editing has no place on Wikipedia and it is especially unwelcome on articles involving the Palestine-Israel conflict. I will be willing to consider lifting this ban if you state you can work with other editors and avoid tendentious editing. Until then you are banned from editing Six-Day War and its talk page.

WP:OFFER He's shown he can't drop things and move on in this case, it doesn't mean he can't do it elsewhere and it doesn't mean I wouldn't entertain lifting the ban if he demonstrated he could work with others elsewhere. After all this is an indefinite ban on this particular article and not the topic (although some kind of restriction there may be warranted) and not his account. I think since all of his editing has been restricted to this article up until a few days ago it has caused most of the problem. --WGFinley (talk) 18:00, 6 September 2010 (UTC)Reply[reply]

And yet, isn't indef too harsh? - BorisG (talk) 18:10, 6 September 2010 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Indef = earn your way back, it is particularly used in cases where the editor has shown no intent on changing behavior thus far. --WGFinley (talk) 19:09, 6 September 2010 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I also was working under the incorrect impression that "indefinite" meant "infinite". If it doesn't, then that is much better. • Ling.Nut 22:58, 6 September 2010 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Nope, WP:OFFER. --WGFinley (talk) 23:35, 6 September 2010 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Wgfinley, the underlying assumption of your above statements that I should "drop things and move on" regarding WP:OFFER is that I should acknowledge I've committed the faults you accuse me of, and yet the main basis for your ban is with regard to my proposed edit for the Suez Crisis section of the article[17], in which I committed no such wrong as you claim, such as that I had expressed that I "believe proper usage of the template is 'unreasonable'" with regard to that proposed edit, which I've already demonstrated is a willful and deliberate falsehood. Given your history of harassing me and given the fact that you felt it necessary to manufacture such a lie in order to support this current ban, I will gladly take my chances with the appeal rather than being intimidated under threat of punishment into acknowledging I've said and/or done things that I never said or did. JRHammond (talk) 23:37, 6 September 2010 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Let's observe the pattern: (1) Blocking me on a wholly spurious pretext, with the admin granting my appeal stating "I see nothing in JRHammond's comments at that talk page that warrant a block, let alone a one week block, and particularly a "cool down" block."[18]; (2) Posting personal information about me I had never revealed myself in direct violation of WP:OUTING.[19]; (3) Banning me for 48 hours on the basis that I had violated 1RR[20] when the facts were that: (a) an edit I made[21] was reverted by an anonymous IP editor on the basis it was not well sourced,[22] (b) I did not revert back to my original edit, but rather (c) added a great many authoritative sources in order to satisfy the raised objection;[23] (d) and, moreover, my edit improved the article by replacing an unsourced and demonstrably false statement with a very well sourced statement of fact; (4) Blocking me for 7 days and banning me for two weeks on the basis that I had violated my spurious 48 hour ban[24] when the facts were that: (a) My above noted improvement to the article was reverted by the same anonymous IP editor with no legitimate explanation and without discussion,[25], so I (b) restored my edit to prevent the unsourced and false statement from remaining in the article,[26], (c) all of which is in keeping with the the spirit of Wikipedia guidelines, the whole purpose and intent of which is to create a conducive environment for the improvement of articles,[27], which demonstrates further that you were merely "Utilizing the rules in a manner contrary to their principles", demonstrating clear disregard for the purpose and intent of the rules you feign to uphold; (5) telling me I "shouldn't be" contributing to the Talk page after my ban and block had expired and threatening to ban me again for "carrying the edit war from the article on to the talk page",[28] a reference to my having proposed a solution to a problematic passage in the article that was reviewed, approved, and implemented by an administrator;[29], (6) this current ban based on demonstrably false and misleading claims, and (7) issuing further veiled threats of punitive action against me on the basis that my comment "Accredited, it is not clear to me, because you commented on tangential matters and not on any perceived merits/demerits on your part of my proposed edit, so kindly just answer my question. Yes or no?" was "combative".[30] I rest my case. Perhaps it's you who needs to be banned, Wgfinley. JRHammond (talk) 00:24, 7 September 2010 (UTC)Reply[reply]

My word, WP:TL;DR. It's really not necessary to reply to each and every thought uttered that does not completely support you. Do you really think you are doing yourself any good individually calling out uninvolved admins and/or going to their talk pages to confront them there? Is there a single shred of any of the 5k written above that you haven't already said? WP:STICK! Saying I should be banned, you actually think THAT'S helpful? I should delete my entire section your conduct on both of these appeals has done nothing but affirmed my position. --WGFinley (talk) 13:16, 7 September 2010 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Anyone here can verify the facts are precisely as I've stated them. It's instructive that you are either unwilling or unable to substantively address my argument for appeal. JRHammond (talk) 14:26, 7 September 2010 (UTC)Reply[reply]

@Gatoclass -- Telling someone they have bald tires and are about to go driving in the rain is not a threat, it's courteous warning. I courteously informed JRH that editing, in the same fashion, an article whose subject is the reason why he was banned on another article could resort in a topic ban. That's not a threat and it's already been suggested by others here. --WGFinley (talk) 13:16, 7 September 2010 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Let's get our facts straight, Guy. With regard to the incident in question, what Gatoclass actually said was: "Witness this latest exchange between JRH and WGFinley where WG again purports to find a "combative tone" possibly worthy of a new topic ban in this post. Nobody whose edits were subject to such a level of scrutiny and threats would be likely to maintain their equanimity for long." Which was a reference to your "courteous warning" that I could be further banned for such "combative" comments as this: "Accredited, it is not clear to me, because you commented on tangential matters and not on any perceived merits/demerits on your part of my proposed edit, so kindly just answer my question. Yes or no?" Which speaks for itself, and is instructive as to the spurious nature of this ban, and the spurious nature of the stated reasons for denying my appeal. JRHammond (talk) 14:26, 7 September 2010 (UTC)Reply[reply]

JRHammond's Epiphany [31][edit]

I stand by my offer when I notified of the ban:[32]

I will be willing to consider lifting this ban if you state you can work with other editors and avoid tendentious editing.

However, I have considered the matter. In it I have considered the following:

1. The previous ban appeal took about 125kb, at least 80% of that from JRHammond. It was closed for WP:TL;DR -- I submit that is a disruption in violation of WP:POINT, part of the WP:CIVIL pillar.
2. JRHammond immediately refiled and while he kept his initial filing to the requested 1000 words this appeal ballooned to 41kb and, I would say at least 90% was from JRHammond. -- Again, I submit that is a disruption in violation of WP:POINT, part of the WP:CIVIL pillar.
3. JRHammond has replied sharply to any individual who has given him anything by full support including moving to their talk pages, [33] [34] [35] [36] [37] [38] [39] [40] one of these as recently as the past hour (when I started writing) [41] and prevailed upon another to post here on his behalf while accusing other uninvolved admins of being unfair [42] even suggesting what it should say [43] -- I submit that is a disruption by campaigning, part of the WP:CONSENSUS pillar.
4. JRHammond has accused everyone here of not answering his questions and calling us hypocrites [44] [45] -- I submit that is a disruption in violation of WP:AGF, part of the WP:CIVIL pillar.
5. JRHammand has accused me of "manufacturing deliberate falsehoods" [46] [47], stated I made threats and false and misleading claims and should be banned [48] and accused me of manufacturing lies (along with calling another editor a hypocrite for good measure)[49] -- I submit that is a disruption in violation of both WP:ETIQ and WP:NPA, part of the WP:CIVIL pillar. Normally I accept I'm an admin, working in an area where passions get enflamed, and harsh criticism is part of the job. However, these are not the words of someone just banned, he's been doing this for days and I shouldn't be called a liar.
6. JRHammond has repeatedly instructed others how this process should proceed including stating no evidence at all has been presented against him, [50] then made his statement I have dubbed an "epiphany" above and then promptly refused to acknowledge any wrongdoing and demanded his appeal be granted [51] -- I submit that is a disruption by WP:LAWYER, part of the WP:IAR pillar. I'm forced to call it an epiphany because he posted it within hours and some cases minutes of almost all of the above He also immediately went to other venues again asking for his ban to be removed. I am forced to apply WP:DUCK to, and attribute it to an attempt to WP:GAME.

In light of the gross disturbance on this page and his conduct I deny removing my ban at this time. Further, I think there is ample evidence for a Palestine-Israel conflict ban until he demonstrates a better grasp of harmonious editing. --WGFinley (talk) 02:50, 8 September 2010 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Statement by Mbz1[edit]

The prior request was just closed by NE. Do we really need to go over this again? I believe the ban should be extended to be broadly construed, and the request should be closed. It is just a time wasting. As with all indefinite bans the next appeal could be filed in a year.--Mbz1 (talk) 05:06, 6 September 2010 (UTC)Reply[reply]

(1) The admin who closed it invited me to re-appeal ("If JRHammond wishes to refile a request to overturn the ban, he is instructed to limit his statement to no more than 1000 words..."). I did so according to the instruction given. (2) Your remark does not substantively address the argument for my appeal. JRHammond (talk) 06:29, 6 September 2010 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I agree my remark "does not substantively address the argument for your appeal" because I believe that filing appeal after appeal is an abuse of the right to appeal. There was a clear consensus (4 to 1) of uninvolved admins to leave your ban in place. That's why I see absolutely no ground for filing another appeal right away.--Mbz1 (talk) 13:41, 6 September 2010 (UTC)Reply[reply]

That opinion of yours is something you will have to take up with the admin who invited me to re-appeal, Mbz1. I would observe that any reasonable decision one way or the other must substantively address my argument for lifting the ban; conversely, any decision that does not do so would be unreasonable. JRHammond (talk) 13:57, 6 September 2010 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Statement by Gatoclass[edit]

I am currently working my way through JRHammond's contributions to both the Six-Day War article and the related talk page in order to try and make a judgement about this. I'd appreciate it if this appeal was not closed until I have had a chance to complete my review. Thanks, Gatoclass (talk) 08:44, 6 September 2010 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Is that true you are "currently working my way through JRHammond's contributions to both the Six-Day War article and the related talk page in order to try and make a judgement about this"? One could have thought that you've already done this before you've made this comment in the uninvolved administrators section BTW.--Mbz1 (talk) 13:35, 6 September 2010 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Oh give it a rest Mbz, please. Gatoclass (talk) 13:44, 6 September 2010 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Gato, you do know that this is an usual arguments, for ones, who have nothing better to respond, don't you? :)--Mbz1 (talk) 23:03, 6 September 2010 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Response to Cptnono

Response to PhilKnight

Phil, as far as I can tell, JRH has only been editing since July and only made a handful of edits to mainspace - no more than about thirty I think. I agree his talk page behaviour has been less than exemplary at times, but given his inexperience I am concerned at the somewhat draconian nature of this remedy. I am also concerned at the fact that he has been pursued by one admin in particular who has slapped a series of blocks and bans on him often for quite trivial and at times patently imaginary offences, and who still appears bent on dogging his footsteps in a manner that looks very much to me like harassment. Witness this latest exchange between JRH and WGFinley where WG again purports to find a "combative tone" possibly worthy of a new topic ban in this post. Nobody whose edits were subject to such a level of scrutiny and threats would be likely to maintain their equanimity for long.

JRH obviously has a lot to learn in regards to acceptable conduct but everyone has a learning curve, there are many users on the I-P pages who have edited far more tendentiously and for much longer periods and escaped any sanction whatever, and JRH at least appears to be intelligent, erudite and reasonably well informed. That doesn't necessarily mean he will become a productive editor but it does indicate that he has the potential to make a worthwhile contribution. And I don't want to see a potentially useful editor unfairly discouraged. Gatoclass (talk) 16:20, 6 September 2010 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Gatoclass, I have a suggestion. As you can see, JRH is adamant that he has done nothing wrong, contrary to your comment above. It appears that you are sympathetic to him. If you are, then perhaps you are best placed to explain to JRH (here or on his talk page or elsewhere) what the problem is, and more importantly, convince him to change his approach. If he does, then we will all welcome him. But if he persists, then the article in question is best left without it. It has enough problems without him. Cheers. - BorisG (talk) 14:42, 7 September 2010 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I already offered to assist him should he find himself at loggerheads with other editors in a future discussion. Gatoclass (talk) 05:22, 8 September 2010 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Did you really? In that case we'd better first somebody, who will assist you at loggerheads with other editors in a future discussion--Mbz1 (talk) 05:46, 8 September 2010 (UTC)Reply[reply]

BorisG, why don't you follow your own suggestion and point to anything I did or said on the talk page that would warrant this ban. Given the fact that every stated pretext has been completely spurious, even manufactured, it would seem incumbent upon all of you arguing against my appeal to substantiate your claims with even just a single example. I also welcome Gatoclass to do the same if he is in agreement about denying my appeal. It's highly instructive that all these charges of bad behavior have so far not been substantiated with even a single example. Let's have a diff or diffs substantiating these charges, BorisG. Is that too much to ask? Do you find it unreasonable? In fact, it all of you are guilty of Tendentious Editing, which includes ignoring or refusing to answer good faith questions from other editors, inasmuch as I have repeatedly asked this question in good faith, and every single one of you has refused so far to answer it. You are all being unreasonable hypocrites. JRHammond (talk) 22:46, 7 September 2010 (UTC)Reply[reply]

JRH, I made my remark in order to help you, and in response I get a personal attack (calling someone a hyporcite is a personal attack). I hope others will see this. I have done nothing to provoke this. You have now made crystal clear to everyone what sort of editor you are. However if your goal was to provoke me, it's not going to work. I hope your ban stays because I do not want to be involved in any articles/talk pages you are going to edit. BTW, no Wikipedia policy says that I have to answer your questions. - BorisG (talk) 02:28, 8 September 2010 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Gee, I didn't realize your statement that you would support the ban was an offer of "help". As for your hypocrisy, it is what it is. A double standard is a double standard. If you don't like people to observe your hypocrisy, then don't be a hypocrite. I disagree it's a "personal attack" if it's demonstrably true. JRHammond (talk) 11:15, 8 September 2010 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Whether something like that is true is just about always a matter of opinion, and it's certainly a personal attack. Enigma^msg 15:55, 8 September 2010 (UTC)Reply[reply]

No, it is not at all a matter of opinion, and not at all subjective. You can verify for yourself that Gatoclass said he supported the ban on the basis that I had repeated an argument. Yet he, too, had repeated his argument (a logical fallacy). The definition of a hypocrite is one who refuses to apply to himself the same standard applied to others. So, unless BorisG wishes to ban himself, he is, as a matter of demonstrable fact, applying a hypocritical standard. JRHammond (talk) 00:13, 9 September 2010 (UTC)Reply[reply]

JRHammond, can't you see what's happening here? I said the ban was going too far, and your response was to aggressively argue that I was out of line, to such an extent that I now support the ban. Boris made a similar comment, and following your argument with him, he now supports the ban. In other words, your approach really isn't working. Just a suggestion, but you could try being more diplomatic. PhilKnight (talk) 00:27, 9 September 2010 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I'm perfectly aware of what's going on here. Let's get our facts straight: Yes, you said the ban went too far, but you also expressed support for a shorter ban. On what basis? I requested that you point to even just a single example of something I did or said that would justify that judgment, and you refused.[52] That is totally unreasonable, as I rightly observed. As for Boris, I merely observed that if he judged himself by the same standard he judged me, he would have to ban himself. The issue is not lack of diplomacy, the issue is the unwillingness/inability of so many of you to reason. All I'm asking is that people be reasonable. That is not too much to ask. JRHammond (talk) 07:21, 9 September 2010 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Statement by Ling.Nut[edit]

• JR has occasionally worked cooperatively, especially in the early days of our work on the article's WP:LEDE. He bears a particular POV, and is amazingly tireless and unyielding in his defense of it. It is the "tireless and unyielding" bit that grates on people. It is indeed unproductive, because it does indeed wear people down.
• There is simply a fundamental disconnect going on here. There is a fundamental disconnect between the way that JR views this entire situation, including the proceedings in this forum, and the way neutral editors view it. [Here I must also note that there are several editors in this forum and on the article's talk page who bear an NPOV that is categorically opposed to JR's; I trust that uninvolved admins will make an effort to discover who those editors are, and discount their views accordingly]. JR seems to want to marshal arguments any time anyone voices an opinion different than his, supporting his arguments with facts, rather than interacting in order to investigate perceptions of other editors involved (which are sometimes valid). JR seems to live in a world where arguing in the formal sense (fact vs. fact) is the only approach to any problem. He operates in an environment in which there are winners and losers (including most especially, winning ideas and losing ideas).
• He also is unable to let things rest and breathe a while, as per m:eventualism.
• JR's tirelessness can occasionally be fruitful. Since he researches issues thoroughly (albeit in a biased manner), he often brings facts to the table that very definitely need to be included in the article. In fact, he is unquestionably a valuable contributor in that restricted sense. However, the problem is that he does not stop at bringing facts to the table; he tirelessly argues to prove to everyone that his facts always and everywhere supersede all others.
• I was not aware (before now) that an indefinite ban is not the same as an infinite ban. It can be lifted, upon signs of altered behavior. I hope JR will take note of that fact.

Ling.Nut, (1) You are not substantively addressing the basis for my appeal, and you offer nothing by way of substantiation, beyond your own personal opinions, that would support the basis for this ban. (2) Said opinions of yours depend primarily upon the assumption that I am biased, yet you offer not a single example to substantiate that claim. Moreover, as WP:TE states, everyone has bias and bias is not a problem in editors, but in articles, and I maintain that all of my edits and proposed edits are perfectly in compliance with WP:NPOV (in fact, many corrected statements that violated NPOV). I challenge you or anyone else to demonstrate otherwise. (3) Facts matter. Logic is applicable. Arguing vigorously for my positions by presenting well researched and factual information (as you yourself attest to) and sound logic is not something which warrants a ban. Neither is the expectation I have that other editors similarly support their positions by presenting factually and logically sound arguments, rather than resorting to ad hominem or other logical fallacies, unreasonable. (4) Your assumption that my behavior is in need of alteration is based solely upon the above unsubstantiated opinions and logical fallacies. If you want to convince me I've behaved inappropriately, you need to give me something to go on. You've given me nothing, and I stand by all my edits and all my contributions to the Talk page. Facts matter. Logic applies. I expect you and everyone else to be reasonable with me, and that is a reasonable expectation that is constantly disappointed,through no fault of my own. JRHammond (talk) 02:24, 7 September 2010 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I'm sorry, I'm (all at the same time) a bit burned out on this discussion (and) very busy in real life so shouldn't even be here (and) putting up with on-wiki trouble over other articles and with other editors. My only observation about your facts (in the article, not in this forum) is that they are occasionally refuted by other reliable sources, yet you always and everywhere see that your sources supersede others. I am extremely hesitant to present diffs showing that edit from a POV, because I want to leave you a figleaf in order that you may continue editing (I hope), and leave our editing relationship a figleaf so that we may continue editing together... Moreover, I actually do not care about POV, as you accurately cite TE; almost every editor on that page is from either the pro-Israel or the pro-Arab camp. I care about how POV affects the editing process. I am looking forward to working with you again. I do not want to poison our working relationship. I know you will not believe this, but I am actually trying to help you (I know that may sincerely seem difficult to swallow – I really do). You suggest I have not pointed out the behaviors that are unacceptable; gosh, I thought I had done that repeatedly. I would be very happy to discuss anything and everything in other forums (after a cooling-down period). Right now, you are sitting at AE, and many folks want to ban you from the article. Rather than continuously arguing that those folks are wrong, why don't you ask them (in a non-challenging way and on other forums) how they believe you can modify your behavior to be more in line with community expectations? Work with the community rather than fighting against it. I am so sorry, I know that everything I say probably seems invalid to you because I am not putting up a counterpoint for each of your points.I am not being sarcastic or condescending or any negative thing at all when I say I am sorry; I am in fact actually and genuinely sorry. • Ling.Nut 05:02, 7 September 2010 (UTC)Reply[reply]

JRHammond, please re-read Ling.Nuts original statement. Receiving criticism is always hard, but this criticism is fair and made in good faith. --Frederico1234 (talk) 05:19, 7 September 2010 (UTC)Reply[reply]

As are my replies. All I've requested is that if my appeal is to be denied that the basis for my appeal be substantively addressed and I be given a reason for this ban (one not based on deliberate falsehoods), substantiated with even just a single example of behavior on my part that violated Wikipedia policy as would warrant it! An short of that, my appeal should be granted. This is certainly not an unreasonable request! JRHammond (talk) 06:01, 7 September 2010 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Ling.Nut, you continue to make prejudicial statements against me (e.g. "you always and everywhere see that your sources supersede others") that you refuse to substantiate with even a single example. It hardly serves to make such remarks and then refuse to substantiate them on the basis that you "do not want to poison our working relationship", because doing so does just that. As for your suggestion that I ask in a non-challenging way how those sitting in judgment of me believe I can modify my behavior to be more in line with community expectations, first of all, this assumes I have done something wrong, which is prejudicial inasmuch as determining whether or not that is the case is what this appeal is about (and I have already demonstrated that the basis for this appeal is spurious, demonstrated by the demonstrable fact that Wgfinley felt it necessary to manufacture deliberate falsehoods to support the ban), and, secondly, I have repeatedly done just that, only to have that reasonable request either so far ignored or declined! [53][54][55][56][57] Seriously, is it too much to ask that if I am to be banned that a reason be given for that ban that is actually substantiated with a specific example of something I've posted that violated Wikipedia policy? I'm not the one being unreasonable here, Ling.Nut. JRHammond (talk) 05:27, 7 September 2010 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Statement by BorisG[edit]

I agree with everything Ling.Nut said. To put it in my own words, the problems with JRH's editing are:

• Style (wall-to-wall text, repeating the same arguments over and over again).
• Presenting his own opinion as 'truth'.
• Attempts to use editprotect template without consensus.
• Above all, this is a single-purpose account.

I will not be giving any examples, because anyone can see it (and form their own opinion which may be different from mine) just by browsing Six-day war talk page for 5 minutes. I will not express any opinions regarding the ban, because I do not have enough relevant experience.

(1) I agree I do often have to repeat myself, because the fact is that others, yourself included, refuse to substantively address my arguments (e.g. Suez Crisis proposed edit). This is not an offense anyhow. (2) I have never presented my own opinion as fact; I do however, fully support my opinions with facts. This is not an offense anyhow. (3) As for the editprotect template, I employed it for precisely 2 edits, and I did so properly: (a) For the first, I'll let the words of the admin who accepted my request speak for themselves: "I see no issue removing contentious material when the parties concerned agree that the material should eventually be replaced with something more neutral." (b) For the second, I outlined my proposal, clearly stated my intent to employ the template, and called on editors to state any objections if they had any. After several days, no objections were raised, so I did so, in full compliance with the template instructions. (4) Yes. It was numerous problems I saw with the Six Day War article that compelled me to join the process. I don't have time for other articles, so I stick mostly with this one. I'm not aware of any Wikipedia policy that says you must edit multiple articles or none at all. JRHammond (talk) 13:30, 7 September 2010 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Now, I would add two further observations: (1) None of your comments address the basis for my appeal. (2) If you express no opinion on the ban, then it's inappropriate to comment here with prejudicial remarks against me. JRHammond (talk) 13:32, 7 September 2010 (UTC)Reply[reply]

(1) From [WP:TE]: You find yourself repeating the same argument over and over again, without persuading people.

(2) Ok, you have convinced me to support the ban. - BorisG (talk) 14:46, 7 September 2010 (UTC)Reply[reply]

"The sentence is sourced to a RS. Unless it is shown that this is not what the source says, it can stay. I don't have the source to check."[58] -- BorisG

"More generally, assessment of what is right and what is wrong in a RS is OR. We need to see what the source says and how it explains it."[59] -- BorisG

"The statement is based on a reliable source. If the reliable source does say this, then it belogs to the article."[60] -- BorisG

BorisG, my above comment was specifically in reference to our discussions over my proposed edit here:[61]. You repeatedly said that so long as the source said what the article says it says, the text should remain. That did not convince me, because it is a logical fallacy. As I repeatedly observed in response, the question is whether the article accurately characterizes the UNEF mandate, which it demonstrably does not; it demonstrably violates WP:NPOV and WP:WEIGHT, which is the underlying issue I repeatedly tried to get you to address, to no avail. The full explanation for "Tendentious Editing":

If your arguments are rejected, bring better arguments, don’t simply repeat the same ones. And most importantly, examine your argument carefully, in light of what others have said. It is true that people will only be convinced if they want to be, regardless of how good your argument may be, but that is not grounds for believing that your argument must be true. You must be willing to concede you may have been wrong. Take a good, long hard look at your argument from as detached and objective a point of view as you can possibly muster, and see if there really is a problem with it. If there isn't, it's best to leave the situation alone: they're not going to want to see it and you cannot force them to. If there is a problem, however, then you should revise the argument, your case, or both.[62]

Your unwillingness to acknowledge your logical fallacy when I repeatedly pointed it out to you, your continual repeating of that logical fallacy despite my having pointed it out as such, and your refusal to actually address my own argument on any point of fact or logic clearly demonstrates that it was you and not I are guilty of "Tendentious Editing". Hypocrite. JRHammond (talk) 22:37, 7 September 2010 (UTC)Reply[reply]

There is no logical fallacy in my arguments. Wikipedia is not about truth, it is about verifiability. And please refrain from writing in my section here. Move your responses to your section. Thanks. - BorisG (talk) 02:32, 8 September 2010 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Please remain civil and do not attack other editors. Enigma^msg 03:42, 8 September 2010 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by User:JRHammond[edit]

Since it was pointed out in the last appeal that I am "uninvolved" except in an administrative role, I guess I'll post a comment here. Anyone who feels differently (including the petitioner) may move my comments. I'll make no behavioral judgments here, just some relevant observations.

Observation 1: JRHammond refers to Wikipedia:Tendentious editing as if it were a hard definition. WP:TE is an essay, not an official policy or guideline. As an essay it needn't (and doesn't) comprehensively describe every possible way an editor can be tendentious. (That essay could use some improvement. It has had a few minor fixes, but like most essays, it was largely written by one person.) Other highly experienced editors and administrators have described JRHammond's talk page behavior as tendentious. They've seen it before, and they saw it not only on Talk:Six-Day War but possibly also in these two appeals. Regardless of the merits of the accusation of tendentiousness, that is what was seen.

Observation 2: Based on the comments of two other editors who have become fatigued by arguing at length with JRHammond on Talk:Six-Day War,[63][64] one example of tendentiousness not described in WP:TE is to wear out your opponents to the point where they are no longer willing to participate. I am not saying that JRHammond's intent was to drive off opposition, but that was an outcome. And that outcome was apparently one reason leading to a ban.[65]

Observation 3: JRHammond is a fairly new and inexperienced editor whose first contribution was in February this year, and who has made about 500 edits, the bulk of which (about 80%) are on talk pages. That may be reasonable given the contentious nature of the topic he chooses to get involved in, but I'll leave it to others to decide. In any case, I believe it is common for new editors who start out with a flurry of activity to violate the community behavior norms, and earn a ban or a block. I personally see no dishonor in that. It's part of the learning process of becoming a Wikipedian. JRHammond didn't start out being fully aware of things like Wikipedia:Tendentious editing, Wikipedia:Wikilawyering, or other relevant documents that he now knows about. Different people approach Wikipedia in different ways. Many of us have found it necessary to modify our natural inclinations when participating here. For example, it isn't natural for me to swallow my pride, refrain from lashing out at a personal attack, or refrain from defending myself against every single accusation. But, I observe from personal experience that practicing those skills does make life on Wikipedia more pleasant in the long run.

Observation 4: Taking a larger view, this ban seems pretty minor. It's a ban from one article and one talk page. It isn't a topic ban. It isn't a block. It isn't even forever — "indefinite" means "without a specified limit", not "infinite". Given that there are 238 other articles in Category:Arab-Israeli conflict, which seems to be JRHammond's area of interest, I don't see this ban as hindering JRHammond's participation here. A topic ban most certainly would. But a single-article ban is no big deal, considering the millions of articles on Wikipedia that need improvement.

Observation 5: Finally, I note that in the U.S. court system, one can plead guilty, not guilty, or no contest. Pleading "no contest" isn't an admission of guilt. I suggest that JRHammond recognize this ban for the minor thing that it is, accept WGFinley's offer, plead no contest, and move on. ~Amatulić (talk) 19:05, 7 September 2010 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Pleading "no contest" would mean tacit acknowledgment that WGFinley's stated pretext for this ban was legitimate. It is not, as the fact that he felt it necessary to lie in order to fabricate a basis for it clearly demonstrates. As for the characterizations here that this ban is warranted, please point to whatever comment(s) I made on the Talk page that would demonstrate that this is so. JRHammond (talk) 22:22, 7 September 2010 (UTC)Reply[reply]

JRHammond, remember, this section is for discussion among uninvolved editors. Please refrain from commenting here.

As to your concern about tacit acknowledgment and so on: ask yourself, so what? While a ban feels like a big deal to the banee, being banned from a single article isn't worth the energy you've put into this. I have learned that a little humility goes a long way. You aren't harmed or dishonored in the least by walking away, saying "okay, no big deal, I'll try not to piss you off in the future", and moving on to more productive activities on Wikipedia. You have already stated your case that this ban is unwarranted. The result will be determined by an administrator based on your overall conduct rather than on specific comments. ~Amatulić (talk) 23:34, 7 September 2010 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Result of the appeal by User:JRHammond[edit]

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

I gather the earlier discussion was closed as it was TL;DR, so I'll try to keep this short. JRHammond's talk page conduct has been disruptive, and he has yet to accept that he needs to modify his approach. Accordingly, I consider the indefinite article + talk page ban to be within admin discretion, although it's longer than I would've applied. PhilKnight (talk) 15:36, 6 September 2010 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I concur with this assessment. I would add that JRHammond's best approach to getting the sanction lifted would be to spend some time editing harmoniously outside the Arab-Israel conflict topic area. Indefinite ought not necessarily to imply infinite. CIreland (talk) 15:46, 6 September 2010 (UTC)Reply[reply]

The reopened appeal by JRHammond suggests he has learned nothing at all from the last one. His mission on Wikipedia is (seemingly) to pound away until he can force his views into the Six-Day War article. I support the indefinite ban from article + talk page. You would think that JRH could manage to occasionally say *something* diplomatic that could lighten up the image that we have of him, but that never occurs. 'Harmonious' is not a word in his vocabulary. EdJohnston (talk) 17:57, 6 September 2010 (UTC)Reply[reply]

• On behaviour, I would support banning JRHammond from using ((editprotected)) in relation to Six-Day War for a finite period of a month to a few months (and keeping the article protected), but I'm reluctant to support more than that. Gimmetoo (talk) 01:11, 8 September 2010 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Request concerning Nableezy[edit]

User requesting enforcement

Ynhockey ^(Talk) 21:05, 11 September 2010 (UTC)Reply[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested

Nableezy (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy that this user violated

Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Palestine-Israel articles#Discretionary sanctions

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

1. [119] Personal attacks and another concern, see comments section
2. [120] Personal attacks
3. [121] Edit-warring on an article about settlements right after ban's expiration
4. [122] Personal attack against Brewcrewer (unrelated to settlements)

Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)

1. [123] ARBPIA notification by PhilKnight (talk · contribs)
2. [124] Notification of ban for similar misconduct

Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction)

A ban on articles about settlements

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

Nableezy and I have a history of unfortunate interactions, and in most cases I prefer to avoid any kind of interaction rather than potentially enter a heated dispute (as is usually the case in this topic area). Nableezy has been going around articles about Israeli settlements with an attempt to demonstrate that they are illegal under international law. He has edit-warred and personally attacked other editors in this topic area on numerous occasions, and was banned for this behavior in the past. What made me file this report now of all times was this comment, where Nableezy states that he will use sources only for one purpose (adding sentences about settlements' legalities) while refusing to make constructive contributions to these articles based on the same sources. I have contributed to articles about settlements in the past (and intend to do so in the future), and to me this comment is incredibly disheartening. I believe that this kind of outlook is much more severe than either edit-warring or civility, and, to cite WP:ARBPIA, goes against the very purpose of Wikipedia. It also shows that Nableezy chooses to adopt a clear WP:BATTLE attitude by only adding information that is controversial. As far as I can tell, Nableezy has not made any other contributions to settlement-related articles. —Ynhockey ^(Talk) 21:05, 11 September 2010 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Further comment: Just for the record, I do not oppose this edit (and won't unless there's consensus against it from other editors), and my complaint has nothing to do with this edit, or indeed any content issue, but with Nableezy's behavior only. —Ynhockey ^(Talk) 21:29, 11 September 2010 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Re to PhilKnight: I would like to hear your opinion on whether you support editing in a manner that's meant to be controversial while refusing to make non-controversial contributions to articles. —Ynhockey ^(Talk) 22:45, 11 September 2010 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Given you've asked the same question on my user talk, I'll reply there. PhilKnight (talk) 22:55, 11 September 2010 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Another question to PhilKnight: You did not see a problem with Nableezy's conduct in the first two diffs. In the second one he makes a statement that he doesn't take anything I say seriously (and, implicitly, other editors who are perceived as pro-Israel). If that is the case, how are we supposed to engage in dispute resolution? The basis for successful dispute resolution (and I speak from experience) is that both parties must take each other seriously and understand the other side's concerns.

I'll reply here, if I may. From the context, I gather Nableezy is saying that he doesn't take seriously the view that it's dehumanizing to describe the people who live there as settlers. Again, for hopefully the last time, I still don't consider Nableezy's conduct to be substantially worse than yours. PhilKnight (talk) 23:48, 11 September 2010 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

[125]

Discussion concerning Nableezy[edit]

Statement by Nableezy[edit]

This is somewhat ridiculous. Ynhockey says here that "If you feel that the legality is another important fact, feel free to mention it in 8 words or less". I did that in the next edit, using only 6 words instead of 8 to address his somewhat inane argument that the 10 words that had been used was undue weight. Yn seems to think I am obligated to add any information that I can find about these settlements. The information that I am interested in is the information on the legality and so I add that information to these articles with sources that back my edits. I have emphatically not edit warred at this article. Yn removed the material as unsourced here (from an article that has no sources at all!). I reinserted the material and added a source here, addressing the cause for his removal. A "new" user removed it and I reverted the edit. The "new" user removed it again, again without commenting on the talk page as to why they were removing the content. The only user besides myself on the talk page talking about the content was Yn who said at this time "If you feel that the legality is another important fact, feel free to mention it in 8 words or less." I did exactly that and he brings me here? What is happening here is relatively transparent, but I think if I were to explicitly say why Yn brought this request he might call it a "personal attack". The first 2 diffs are not personal attacks, the 3rd one is but happened on my talk page after an editor did something somewhat stupid. nableezy - 21:16, 11 September 2010 (UTC)Reply[reply]

WGFinley, every page in the category Category:Israeli settlements and each of its sub-cats is in my watchlist. Ynhockey hasnt even accused me of hounding him. nableezy - 22:27, 11 September 2010 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Yn, no such implication is made, and I take some things you say seriously. The topic under discussion was you claiming that calling Israeli settlers "settlers" is dehumanizing. No, I do not take your view that calling settlers "settlers" is dehumanizing seriously. nableezy - 23:29, 11 September 2010 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Comments by others about the request concerning Nableezy[edit]

Statement by Supreme Deliciousness, this is really ridiculous, Ynhocky (an admin) complains about Nableezy adding the only sourced material to the Psagot article. Why does Ynhocky want the only sourced material in that article removed? If an Israeli settlement is illegal under international law, isn't that a pretty huge deal? He first complained about it being unsourced: [126] and then when source is added, he instead says at the talkpage that the sentence is "superfluous" [127]. I have also seen Ynhocky push a very strong non neutral pov at the First Battle of Mount Hermon article: "the claim that it's in Syria is just as "valid" as the claim that it's in Israel." (remember, this is a region that is internationally recognized as a region in Syria) [128]. Its unfortunate that an admin edits in such a non neutral manner. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 21:40, 11 September 2010 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Comment by Cptnono It looks like the requester and I are on similar pages. I recently opened up a discussion about this at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Israel Palestine Collaboration/Current Article Issues#Legality and edit warring. Of course it is a problem when Nableezy returns from a ban partially based on the same exact line in other articles to make reverts/partial reverts[143][144][145] without consensus. We all know a ban or block will not come from this request but I certainly hope editors will see that discussion since it is a hot button issue that has not been properly addressed. And Nableezy should at least be reminded that his behavior might be a problem.

And civility is an ongoing problem. I think that is a broader issue that would only serve to muddle up this request since it deals with other article's. I would like to remind Nableezsy that it is not OK to comment on why he believes people are making edits when it is done in a pointed fashion. I was sanctioned for it and Nableezy is fully aware of the issue.Cptnono (talk) 22:00, 11 September 2010 (UTC)Reply[reply]

This is already spiraling into unreadability and getting off topic. Hockey provided a link to the history of the article. In that history the following reverts/partial reverts can be seen:[146][147][148] over a short period (few days) without consensus. As Shuki points out, this is a resumption of behavior he was recently blocked for. It very well might be a good edit so maybe it shouldn't be controversial. But it is controversial. Can an admin simply remind Nableezy to chill with the revert button and crawl through the consensus building process like we are supposed to?Cptnono (talk) 01:50, 12 September 2010 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I've posted a comment on his talk page. PhilKnight (talk) 02:53, 12 September 2010 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I see that this is about to be closed out. Thought that was a great idea until Nableezy kept on editing the disputed line even though there is an attempt at a centerilzed discussion off the page and a discussion (without consensus on the page).[149][150] What is so wrong with holding off on making the edit until there is consensus or at least until more people are onboard?Cptnono (talk) 20:12, 14 September 2010 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Can the closing and commenting admins address the above edits before closing this? They look to me to be a too similar to the primary reason this was originally opened.Cptnono (talk) 20:39, 14 September 2010 (UTC)Reply[reply]

We could, this admin can tell you it wouldn't end with Nableezy. Takes two people to edit war usually and were we to wade into this and start taking action it would not stop there. It's what Phil was getting at when he was trying to balance behavior. --WGFinley (talk) 23:29, 14 September 2010 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Go for it. Anyone making multiple and/or contraversial changes when there is an ongoing discussion needs to be aware of the consequences.Cptnono (talk) 23:33, 14 September 2010 (UTC)Reply[reply]

And I have already said that I don't believe this AE request will end in blocks or bans and it is still doubtful. He received notice on his talk page and at the very least it needs to be repeated. Cptnono (talk) 23:35, 14 September 2010 (UTC)Reply[reply]

• Shuki,[151]
• Haberstr,[152]
• Ynhockey[153](is it more and I am missing one? I somewhat understand your concern with his revert, though)
• LibiBamizrach[154][155] + tag[156]

There has been a request on the talk page to stop but it keeps on going:

• Brewcrewer:some new ones (sequential)[157][158]
• Nableezy: 4 reverts/partial[159][160][161][162] and some sequential[163] but still controversial edits (these diffs are previous to the additional request to relax on reverts) + a new tag[164]

What needs to happen for some administrator intervention? It is obvious that Nableezy is the problem but others are also guilty. "Wade" in there and tell editors to knock it off. Cptnono (talk) 08:35, 15 September 2010 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Comment by Zero0000 Despite being on opposite sides of the fence, both Nableezy and Ynhockey are editors who edit with integrity, a valuable commodity in a part of Wikipedia where such editors are outnumbered by pure POV-pushers. This particular episode seems to me like a storm in a tea-cup. Nableezy's words might have been better chosen, for sure, but I don't see an offense that can't be handled by a cooling off and calm discussion. Zero^talk 00:17, 12 September 2010 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Comment by Shuki Integrity and nableezy? Zero, please read more of the case here and what is surrounding it. Ynhockey brought up that Nableezy is a quintessential POV pusher uninterested with improving WP. In this case, Nableezy seems to be showing his trademark lack of collaboration, and consistent post topic-ban POV pushing. WP is hoping that these repeated topic bans and warnings would motivate Nableezy into a being collaborative editor, but I guess not yet. --Shuki (talk) 00:43, 12 September 2010 (UTC)Reply[reply]

How is Nableezy pov pushing and how is he uninterested in improving wikipedia by adding the international view to an article and adding the only sources into an un sourced article? --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 00:48, 12 September 2010 (UTC)Reply[reply]

It seems that Nableezy is continually getting warned. At what point do all those warnings mount up to something? --Shuki (talk) 20:22, 14 September 2010 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Comment by JRHammond

I'm not involved in this. I was just curious seeing Nableezy here, as we've encountered each other elsewhere. So I took a moment to examine the claim. There simply are no personal attacks by Nableezy in the diffs provided (1) and (2), period. As for (3), "edit-warring", at a glance Ynhockey has quite a few more edits than Nableezy. How are Nableezy's edits "warring" but Ynhockey's own not so? The claim is made, but no actual argument or facts to support it are presented. As for (4), on Nableezy's own talk page, he says, "I really did not think you were that stupid." At a glance, I don't understand the context for that remark. Perhaps Nableezy could explain it. In any event, so what? Has Brewcrewer himself filed a complaint? Why is Ynhockey speaking for him? If this is about someone having their feelings hurt by "personal attacks", real or alleged, I would suggest if people can't take the heat, they get out of the kitchen. Toughen up and don't be so extremely sensitive. I hardly think Nableezy's comment on his own talk page, which is the only thing even remotely substantive here, warrants any punitive action. But it's pretty clear this isn't about Nableezy violating Wikipedia standards. This is clearly the heart of the issue:

"Nableezy has been going around articles about Israeli settlements with an attempt to demonstrate that they are illegal under international law." -- Ynhockey

Ynhockey doesn't like Nableezy pointing out the indisputable facts (and it is a completely uncontroversial point of fact under international law that the settlements are illegal), and so is trying to silence him by seeking punitive action. This itself is abusive behavior. JRHammond (talk) 03:27, 12 September 2010 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Comment by BorisG

Looks like a routine content dispute. I disagree with Nableezy on many issues but I do not see a problem here. He is interested of putting certain material from the sources but not all of it? Fine, Ynhockey can add more. Indeed a storm in a teacup, in my view. - BorisG (talk) 04:48, 12 September 2010 (UTC)Reply[reply]

'Comment by Sol Goldstone "I propose that you use the source to improve the article (write about its winery) and in the process we can think of something regarding the legality issue. Until you make it clear that your goal is improving the article, I will have trouble supporting your edits about legality. —Ynhockey (Talk) 16:14, 11 September 2010 (UTC)" So the bulk of the accusation is that he refused to meet arbitrary criteria? If the information satisfies policy standards how can you set conditional requirements on its inclusion? Never mind why the editor's intent is important. Sol Goldstone (talk) 22:17, 12 September 2010 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Result concerning Nableezy[edit]

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

The first 2 diffs show Nableezy and Ynhockey criticising each other on an article talk page. I've formally notified Ynhockey of the WP:ARBPIA sanctions, however beyond suggesting they use WP:RFC/USER for personal criticism, I don't think any further action is required. The 3rd link isn't a diff, and I'm unsure what it's supposed to be showing. The 4th diff is uncivil, but was over a week ago, so I don't see why it's being dredged up now. PhilKnight (talk) 21:40, 11 September 2010 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Diff 3 (though not really a diff, it's a history link) shows Nableezy reverting Ynhockey [165] on a topic he's never edited before 5 minutes after Ynhockey has edited it.[166], Ynhockey had edited the article before. This would indicate Nableezy could be hounding Ynhockey's contributions. --WGFinley (talk) 22:15, 11 September 2010 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Nableezy has edited the topic of Israeli settlements previously, but not that individual article. Looking at the edit immediately before that diff, Ynhockey's edit disingenuously says the statement was unsourced, when anybody familiar with IP dispute would be aware of the legal situation, and easily be able to find a source. PhilKnight (talk) 22:31, 11 September 2010 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Oh I agree there are clean hands issues here but while saying one isn't as bad as the other, neither is good. --WGFinley (talk) 23:50, 11 September 2010 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Based on Nableezy explaining how he came to that page and the advice given on his talk page, I'm in agreement with Phil on this and see no action needed at this point. --WGFinley (talk) 18:27, 12 September 2010 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I agree. I see Nableezy getting involved in content disputes. People in content disputes are human and tend to piss each other off. That's just how it goes. I see no need for action here. ~Amatulić (talk) 20:18, 13 September 2010 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Are we ready to close then? I would be in favor of no action with a warning to both to mind their interaction lest further sanctions be needed. --WGFinley (talk) 15:21, 14 September 2010 (UTC)Reply[reply]