The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Keep, but rename to Ethnic Cleansing of Georgians in South Ossetia. \ Backslash Forwardslash / (talk) 22:07, 17 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

2008 genocide of Georgians in South Ossetia[edit]

2008 genocide of Georgians in South Ossetia (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View log)
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An obvious POV-fork from 2008 South Ossetia war and Humanitarian impact of the 2008 South Ossetia war. The relevant section in the main war article is 2008 South Ossetia war#Humanitarian impact and war crimes. Offliner (talk) 12:46, 10 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It is a genuine artice I think. It has sources and is being expanded. Samogitia (talk) 12:30, 10 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
If you have any other perspective on this article, please, expand it and place facts that are more important in you oppinion. I think it would make more sence. Samogitia (talk) 12:32, 10 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
There is already a legitimate subarticle: Humanitarian impact of the 2008 South Ossetia war. I see absolutely no need for this very obvious POV fork. Offliner (talk) 12:57, 10 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Does Ethnic cleansing of Georgians in Abkhazia also violates WP:POVFORK, because we have an article Abhazia, what do you think? Samogitia (talk) 13:07, 10 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Are there any other non-Russian or non-Georgian or non-Ossetian users, who could judge this article? Because I think people from Russia, Georgia, Ossetia or Abhazia would be too biased on this issue. Samogitia (talk) 13:10, 10 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
As well as Lithuanian. Taamu (talk) 13:16, 10 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Please stop these ad hominem comments. Every user on WP has equal rights regardless of his nationality. FeelSunny (talk) 18:45, 10 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Ummm, did you read the article? I mean what kind of article is that, "Oh look that guy said something about genocide or something..." There must be a genocide going on there, if not a genocide then surely an ethnic cleansing... (Igny (talk) 03:34, 11 August 2009 (UTC))[reply]
Article 2 of this convention (1948 United Nations Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide) defines genocide as "any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life, calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; [and] forcibly transferring children of the group to another group." So, estimated (by you) 1% of population is a part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group. Samogitia (talk) 11:21, 11 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
So according to that definition this couldn't be considered a genocide. Thanks. LokiiT (talk) 13:55, 11 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

“We burned these houses. We want to make sure that they [the Georgians] can’t come back, because if they do come back, this will be a Georgian enclave again and this should not happen.” The officer went on to describe events during the fighting, including the execution of a Georgian armed man...[3]

In order to commit Genocide/Ethnic Cleansing, you have to go after people, not houses. Burning an abandoned house isn't even a felony the in US. And you have one execution. One. That's not a genocide. HistoricWarrior007 (talk) 21:03, 11 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Which of these sources classified the violence as genocide? — Rankiri (talk) 15:28, 11 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
None. I would guess he thinks listing a bunch of irrelevant articles will strengthen his vote. Much like how the article itself cites irrelevant sources in an attempt to bring credibility to its factual inaccuracies and original research. LokiiT (talk) 15:47, 11 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
That's a nice list of selectively picked sources, but this doesn't address the main problem with the article, namely, that it's a POV-fork and there is no reason why people couldn't edit/expand Humanitarian impact of the 2008 South Ossetia war instead. Offliner (talk) 15:32, 11 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Source 1: Just Putin bashing. That's not even backed up.

Source 2: "But a dozen interviews with those who fled the fighting, and a trip through seven Georgian villages just south of the fighting, indicated the killing this month was not that systematic, nor on that scale — based on what is known so far."

Source 3: “Detailed analysis of the damage depicted in five ethnic Georgian villages shows the destruction of these villages around the South Ossetian capital, Tskhinvali, was caused by intentional burning and not armed combat.” – Houses not people

Source 4: “The organization’s researchers in South Ossetia on August 12, 2008, saw ethnic Georgian villages still burning from fires set by South Ossetian militias, witnessed looting by the militias, and learned firsthand of the plight of ethnic Ossetian villagers who had fled Georgian soldiers during the Georgian-Russian conflict over the breakaway region of South Ossetia” – again houses, not people.

Source 5: “The Russians are starting to control the situation,” said Shura Terashvili, 68, one of the few people left in the village of Brotsleti, south of Irganeti. “Yesterday a Russian armoured vehicle stopped and asked if everything was okay. There have been some food shipments from Tbilisi too,” she said, adding that she rarely ventured on to the main road for fear of what she might run into.”

Source 6: “After Georgian soldiers stormed South Ossetia and killed Vitaly Guzitayev’s friend, he hid in the woods. Once the Georgians left, he set fire to the elegant brick homes of ethnic Georgians who lived nearby.” – I’ve yet to wait Putin get blamed for this.

Source 7: Anyone who thinks Brezhnev was better then any Russian ruler is on crack. Maybe he was better then Yeltsin the Alcoholic, but other then that…

Biophys, read your own sources. Otherwise I will use them to counter your own points. HistoricWarrior007 (talk) 21:18, 11 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • You're an extremely experienced Wikipedia editor. Should I really point to you that it's a matter of policies, not sympathies? — Rankiri (talk) 02:52, 12 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
What sympathies? People have been killed or driven away based on their ethnicity. That's an ethnic cleansing by definition.Biophys (talk) 13:52, 12 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Ha! The whole Wikipedia is a matter of sympathies, the policies just get in the way. (Igny (talk) 03:21, 12 August 2009 (UTC))[reply]
I trust you read the definition. So here it is again: "Ethnic cleansing is a euphemism referring to the persecution through imprisonment, expulsion, or killing of members of an ethnic minority by a local majority to achieve ethnic homogeneity in majority-controlled territory." It says members of an ethnic minority. Members, i.e. people, i.e. human beings. Homo Sapiens. Not houses. Why is this so hard to get? What happened in the Georgian enclaves of South Ossetia, is that the Georgian population knew that war would come, and they left their houses voluntarily. The others left when the Georgian army was routed. The extreme majority of Georgians left before the Russians and Ossetians even came, before they entered. In the end, gangs of Ossetian hooligans burned abandoned houses. You have to have, what is beyond the wildest imagination possible, to call hooligans burning abandoned houses, "ethnic cleansing". HistoricWarrior007 (talk) 03:42, 12 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
What else could they have done? Uhhh geez, maybe warn their neighborhoods? Blockade the Georgian Army from entering. Tell the UN everything that's going on, that's about to happen. Instead they saw a conflict, and they chose to flee. They didn't rise up against an invading army. Didn't protest against Grads being used against civilians. Rather, they abandoned their homes and fled. Those homes were abandoned. In came the Ossetian hooligan gangs, and burned down abandoned homes. That's not even a felony, much less ethnic cleansing. HistoricWarrior007 (talk) 03:47, 12 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment He is talking about South Ossetians being ethnically cleansed. Not Georgians. Are you sure you have the right article? HistoricWarrior007 (talk) 07:27, 12 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Abandoned homes burned down is now ethnic cleansing? Wow, this is just sad. There would have been ethnic cleansing had the Russians not intervened. They intervened, so no ethnic cleansing took place. HistoricWarrior007 (talk) 07:27, 12 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Burning abandoned houses to prevent people of particular ethnicity from returning is indeed ethnic cleansing. If you have sources telling that the purpose of burning was something else you are welcome to introduce it to the article Alex Bakharev (talk) 06:28, 13 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I don't care if you are an administrator or not, next time you delete my quotes on the talkpage, action will be taken - I'm glad you understand that Mr. Bakharev. Also, burning abandoned houses is not ethnic cleansing. If people wanted to return, here's the thing: they still own the land, they can still comeback there and rebuild the house. US is giving Georgia over a billion dollars in aid, these houses cost at most $50,000 to build. Say six people per house, 18,000 total, (actual number much less) you're looking at 3,000 houses rebuilt, that's 150 million. If you tried to argue that burning down abandoned houses is ethnic cleansing in any western court, you would be laughed out of court. Please, either make an actual argument, or don't make an argument. I don't know what the purpose of the burning is. I do know that burning abandoned houses isn't ethnic cleansing.

Comment on renaming proposal: We should answer one question: did ethnic Georgians decided to leave themselves, or were they forcefully thrown out of the country by Ossetian militias. If Georgians decided to leave themselves with the retreating Georgian forces, that would clearly not amount to ethnic cleansing. If ethnic Georgians (yes, people, and not houses) were forcefully driven of the Republic of South Ossetia, than it amounts to ethnic cleansing. One more thing: ethnic cleansings are a systematic measure, they are started on government level, and are supported by state forces on state, level, i.e. state versus ethnos, not ethnos vs. ethnos. Otherwise that would be an inter-ethnic conflict. FeelSunny (talk) 07:55, 12 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Any particular reason? Or you just contributing to the tally? HistoricWarrior007 (talk) 20:07, 12 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]


What facts will you be using? Here, I'll provide some: In 1989, the population of South Ossetia had 65,000 Ossetians and 28,700 Georgians. Before August 8th, the population of South Ossetia had 45,000 Ossetians and 17,500 Georgians. Looks to me like people just left due to war. As a comparison, in 1989 there were 74,913 Russians. By August 2003 only 23,420 Russians remained. Clearly, according to the logic of this article, Russians were ethnically cleansed from Abkhazia. Here's a fun fact Narking: when war hits, people flee. And they don't return. This is voluntary, there's no ethnic cleansing involved. If there's an earthquake in California, in a major region, lots of people are going to flee. This article's logic would then accuse said earthquake of Ethnic Cleansing. HistoricWarrior007 (talk) 20:07, 12 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
As said earlier I'm not taking part of your blogging. And yes, it's voluntary to flee if people shoot and bomb at you. Either you flee or die. Närking (talk) 20:21, 12 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
"Riiight. So all those Georgians that didn't flee, died. And then were resurrected and interviewed by HRW. It's magic I tell ya. HistoricWarrior007 (talk) 06:07, 13 August 2009 (UTC)" (This was previously removed by Alex Bakharev, so I'm edited it back in with the original date, I though administrators are above such things. HistoricWarrior007 (talk) 09:09, 13 August 2009 (UTC) )[reply]
From Merriam-Webster's Online Dictionary: "Ethnic cleansing: the expulsion, imprisonment, or killing of an ethnic minority by a dominant majority in order to achieve ethnic homogeneity". Närking (talk) 20:45, 13 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Narking, since you like Merriam Websters so much, why don't we look up expulsion - "the act of expelling or the state of being expelled". Since most of the Georgians left before either Ossetians or Russians got there, "the act of expelling" doesn't really qualify, since in order to perform an act, the people actually have to be there, doing the expulsion. The state of being expelled requires that assumption to be challenged. That requires Georgians, trying to peacefully comeback to Ossetia. This has not been tried. It also requires all Georgians to be expelled. Yet there are still people of Georgian decent, living in South Ossetia. So no matter how many times you highlight expulsion it won't make be actual expulsion taking place. What happened here was that people knew that a war was coming, (on both sides) and ran from war. Then abandoned houses were burned. Using this logic, Americans were "ethnically cleansing" Iraqis from Iraq. It's just so pathetic to watch you people try to grasp onto something, anything, that the Russian Army did wrong, even if the event happened before the Russian Army actually entered the area. Yes, Ossetian hooligans cost Georgians $150 million, in damages. But causing $150 million in damage doesn't qualify as genocide. HistoricWarrior007 (talk) 21:33, 13 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • This battle of semantics seems irrelevant, as there is documented WP:RS evidence that asserts that some form of ethnic cleansing did occur. After Georgian forces withdrew from South Ossetia on August 10, South Ossetian forces over a period of weeks deliberately and systematically destroyed ethnic Georgian villages. . .looted, beat, threatened, and unlawfully detained numerous ethnic Georgian civilians, and killed several, on the basis of the ethnicity and imputed political affiliations of the residents of these villages, with the express purpose of forcing those who remained to leave and ensuring that no former residents would return. From this, Human Rights Watch has concluded that South Ossetian forces attempted to ethnically cleanse these villages[6]. As I say below, the problem with the renamed article is not that ethnic cleansing didn't happen but that the article is extremely one-sided in its coverage of the subject and some of its ideas are not explicitly supported by any of its references. — Rankiri (talk) 22:50, 13 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sorry, but I believe that quote is out of context. There was systematic destruction of property, but the lootings, beatings, unlawful detentions, and killings were not systematic. They were done by hooligans, or those seeking revenge. I find that unacceptable, but we cannot call systematic, that which is not systematic. The official policy set by Medvedev was to prevent civilian deaths, and killings/beatings would be directly counterproductive to that, and lootings/detentions would be indirectly counterproductive to that, as people might try to save their property or escape. I'm all for documenting these horrible events, but it wasn't done a systematic scale. HistoricWarrior007 (talk) 07:39, 14 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Argumentation? Offliner (talk) 21:01, 12 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Don't think voting twice is permitted. --Martintg (talk) 10:17, 13 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Bummer! HistoricWarrior007 (talk) 07:39, 14 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
??, the article has already been renamed to 2008 ethnic cleansing of Georgians in South Ossetia, so your rationale is invalid. Human Rights Watch confirms ethnic cleansing has occurred in South Ossetia, see here --Martintg (talk) 10:17, 13 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
HRW doesn't confirm ethnic cleaning. "From this, Human Rights Watch has concluded that South Ossetian forces attempted to ethnically cleanse these villages. Approximately 22,000 villagers, the majority of whom had fled South Ossetia before the conflict started, remain displaced." Attempted murder isn't murder. Not the same thing. HRW placed in black and white, for people like you. Furthermore the Georgian population of South Ossetia is 17,500. 22,000 villagers lost property. So 4,500 non-Georgian villagers, lost property, according to British sources and HRW. Ethnic cleansing? Once again, if you want to talk about property damage, feel free to. But the HRW uses the word attempted. It's not hard at all to interpret the word attempted, as attempted. And also 2=2. HistoricWarrior007 (talk) 07:39, 14 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
However ethnic cleansing has occurred before the war. Alex Bakharev has made a good suggestion with regard to renaming and expanding the scope to discuss ethnic cleansing from 1992 to the present day. --Martintg (talk) 19:21, 13 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Before the war more Ossetians then Georgians fled the region of combat. In addition, between 1989 and 2003, over 50,000 Russians left Abkhazia. Are you going to say that Russians were ethnically cleansed? Alex Bakharev's idea would be wonderful, if those pesky things called actual facts didn't get in the way. HistoricWarrior007 (talk) 07:39, 14 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, the renamed article still stays mostly POVed, of course. I beleive it's because it was only made to advance pro-Georgian POV in WP - from the very beginning. FeelSunny (talk) 18:51, 13 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
So instead of actually joining the discussion, you launched an Ad Hominem against the other side. Now that's what I call desperately grasping for straws. HistoricWarrior007 (talk) 19:01, 15 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I'm sorry, are you talking to me Historic Warrior 007? If you are, please take a look at this [9] Ijanderson (talk) 22:28, 15 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
War produces refugees. And 2 + 2 = 4. So where's ethnic cleansing? According to your logic, Hurrican Katrina has ethnically cleansed Americans here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rpEd1x-WLjo So umm, yeah, I believe I was talking to you. And I've yet to see an non-laughable argument for ethnic cleansing. HistoricWarrior007 (talk) 01:00, 16 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Yes war does produce refugees, just seems to be a bit weird that all the ethnic Georgian refugees were kicked out of South Ossetia. This is what makes it ethnic cleansing. Also I was unaware that Hurricane Katrina was a war or that Hurricane Katrina was a dominant ethnic group which forced mass expulsion on the population of New Orleans? I must be wrong. I suggest you take a look at a dictionary definition of the term "ethnic cleansing".

Ijanderson (talk) 09:06, 16 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It wasn't systematic. There was no forced emigration. Mass expulsion? It doesn't qualify.

Comment Here are some recent reference I have added to the article which say ethnic cleansing did take place in South Ossetia [13][14][15][16][17][18][19] Also I ask everyone to search "ethnic cleansing geogians 2008" in Google news [20] There is 233 relevant pages. Also to all people who say this article is against WP:POVFORK, why do you not say the same about the Holocaust and the Srebrenica massacre etc? Ijanderson (talk) 09:31, 16 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You are comparing 150 million in property damage and 69 deaths to the Holocaust?! Oh I cannot wait to see the Jewish response to this. And in Serbrenica, 8,000 people died. Not 80. You're off by only about 10,000 percent. But your arguments draw a great emotional response. HistoricWarrior007 (talk) 19:51, 17 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/2009_Lithuania%E2%80%93Russia_crisis - looks like someone has a Vendetta against Russia, and doesn't realize that Wikipedia isn't about vendettas. This "gem's" summary: "Russians stop Lithuanian trucks from entering Russia...so political crisis has now engulfed Russia and Lithuania." HistoricWarrior007 (talk) 22:25, 14 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

So that vote is a keep/merge, right? HistoricWarrior007 (talk) 19:51, 17 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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