The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was redirect to Sigma Alpha Epsilon. Any material worth merging is available from the article history. Randykitty (talk) 16:21, 19 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Abner Edwin Patton[edit]

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Fraternity founder who was a low-ranking casualty in the Civil War, not seeing WP:GNG-bearing coverage here. The University of Alabama holds a collection of his letters, but that's a primary source. Most of the coverage that exists of him is brief mentions in lists of Sigma Alpha Epsilon founders.

The only substantial coverage I can find is in "our history"-type publications from the fraternity he founded. As that coverage is not independent of the subject, it cannot contribute to meeting WP:GNG. Hog Farm _Talk 18:56, 11 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: People, Military, Fraternities and sororities, and Alabama. Hog Farm _Talk 18:56, 11 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - Thank you for alerting us that this rather stubby article wasn't up to snuff. I was surprised it wasn't tracked on our Watchlist, where it should have been listed. --Not all founders are noteworthy, but I think this one is, and we aim to monitor all blue linked founders names. I have added it to that watchlist, so the increased attention should prompt editors to improve it. My quick search of the category's standard reference book, Baird's Manual, found Abner Patton noted as a Founder in all editions of that book, first published 144 years ago, thus meeting the significant bar re: external coverage. Other non-trivial coverage in the national magazine or Banta's Exchange should provide other acceptable sources. I have updated the article, fixed several formatting errors, added two additional external references, and vote to !keep. Jax MN (talk) 19:51, 11 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
To what depth does Baird cover the article subject, are we talking a mention as one in a list of founders, a few sentences, multiple paragraphs, many pages? And what are you referring to with [o]ther non-trivial coverage in the national magazine or Banta's Exchange? Ljleppan (talk) 19:58, 11 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Weak keep - Although two out of the sources (Anson (1991) & Baird (1905)) of this article are primarily covering social college fraternities (such as Sigma Alpha Epsilon which Patton had co-founded), still his ties to the 11th Alabama Infantry Regiment along with the fact that the University of Alabama Libraries Special Collections preserves his letters to his family more than a century later signals some historical merit to this encyclopedic piece. AmshitBalcon (talk) 20:10, 11 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Answering Ljleppan, Baird's commonly lists name, date, class and role of founding members of national societies. Our practice in these Fraternity and Sorority articles, to provide clarity, is to note the founders of national groups (but certainly NOT each chapter). Some of these are blue linked to articles, many are not. As Mr. Patton is a non-publicity seeking person, being long deceased, a war casualty and founder of an important and notable national group, I favor keeping and improving the article. It just needs citations, and probably a photo and some additional history on his role. I conclude the reason it is still a stub is that it was mistakenly not picked up for improvements by our Project. That error has now been corrected. I've begun to search for helpful coverage, as Wikipedia is a work in progress. The rush to delete is unwarranted, and example of "Deletionism" versus the more helpful and comprehensive approach of "Inclusionism".

I also thank you for bringing it to our attention. Even though your own search didn't find citations, mine did, and Project participants will look for more. The rules regarding Deletion require competence, and elaborate on this, saying that This means articles, categories or templates should not be nominated in a routine fashion, nor because one feels too lazy to check for sources, or if the content is still being built or improved. --Thus I hope that the nominator sees this as an opportunity to fix the article, thus helping Wikipedia to be more inclusive. Jax MN (talk) 20:20, 11 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

That is a very long text that doesn't answer my rather simple questions in the least. Ljleppan (talk) 20:32, 11 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, but a respectful answer sometimes requires a few lines. I answered you in the first sentence. Further, Project volunteers have expanded the page significantly since the original nomination with more context, adding a number of references, including inline citations. Jax MN (talk) 00:20, 12 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - I agree the case for notability could be stronger but he is one of seven founders of the world's largest fraternity and served as that organization's first president. He is included in an Alabama State Historic Marker. His Civil War record may or may not be significant, but I found his Civil War letters reproduced in a book and the originals are part of a university archive. I added content and numerous sources to the article and suspect there is more to be found. The biographical summary by the university archives is a secondary source and can count toward significant coverage. There are at least two other references that provide significant coverage. Furthermore, Patton is mentioned in publications that are located outside of Alabama, such as Boston, Virginia, and Oklahoma and the nationally published Baird's. Although some of these references are just mentions, they nevertheless prove his notability is national, rather than local. Rublamb (talk) 00:59, 12 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Redirect to Sigma Alpha Epsilon as he fails WP:GNG and his only claim to notability and all the RS relate to that fraternity rather than him. Mztourist (talk) 04:06, 12 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Redirect to Sigma Alpha Epsilon as an alternative to deletion. Relevant notability guideline is WP:NBIO, which (because the subject does not fall under any of the additional criteria) reduces to WP:NBASIC/WP:GNG. The identified sources are insufficient to establish the subject passes NBASIC/GNG, because they are either non-independent, hyperlocal, unreliable, and/or passing mentions. The keep rationales above do not address these deficiencies with notability-establish sourcing, and the other reasons presented are invalid. For example, the notability of the fraternity is not a factor per WP:NOTINHERITED. Similarly, his letters being in an university archive is inconsequential, as they do not raise to the level of WP:AUTHOR. Also irrelevant are his ties to 11th Alabama Infantry Regiment: there is no WP:SNG for soldiers, and even if there was, he certainly would not meet it. Please do ping me with a detailed WP:THREE analysis (including a clear description of depth of coverage, both in terms of what is discussed and the raw amount of text focusing on the subject in specific) if you believe my interpretation is not correct and I'll happily reconsider my !vote. -Ljleppan (talk) 06:22, 12 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I could provide the three articles, but instead will conceed to @Mztourist's point that his only claim to notability is the fraternity. I have added some of the content and sources I found to that fraternity's article in anticipation that a redirect will be the reasonable outcome of this discussion. Having said that, I don't think this is a case of WP:NOTINHERITED. Founders of institutions, businesses, etc. frequently have articles in Wikipedia as there is a difference between being a member and being a founder. Rublamb (talk) 16:26, 12 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Source	Independent?	Reliable?	Significant coverage?	Count source toward GNG?
Source assessment table: prepared by User:Hog Farm
Collection: Abner E. Patton Letters". University Libraries Special Collections, The University of Alabama	Patton's own writings	No reason to assume unreliability	Presumably	✘ No
Myhre, Erik L. (2007). "The History of Sigma Alpha Epsilon: Part One: 1856 - 1865". Washington State University (published 1997)	This appears to be a publication of a chapter of the SAE	No reason to doubt it	Mentions Patton in two sentences	✘ No
Jones, Walter B. (1951-03-05). "Off the Bench: Sigma Alpha Epsilon". The Montgomery Advertiser		The source is a major newspaper	Two sentences of coverage	✘ No
Levere, William Collin (1911). The History of Sigma Alpha Epsilon Fraternity. Vol. 1. Chicago: R. R. Donnelley & Sons Company	The books is copyrighted by the organization he founded		The article discusses the subject directly and in detail	✘ No
Ball, Marie (April 12, 1981). "Pattons Meet". The Tuscaloosa News. pp. 16A. Retrieved March 11, 2023 – via Google Books.		The source is a major newspaper	Source is primarily about his relatives and only mentions him in passing	✘ No
Baird, William Raimond, ed. (1905). "Baird's Manual of American College Fraternities" (6th ed.). New York: The Alcolm Company			Mentions him in a list of founders with no detail	✘ No
Stewart, Austin and G. W. Lambert. March 29, 2018) "Levere Memorial Temple, Sigma Alpha Epsilon." Clio: Your Guide to History	? Unclear if author is affiliated with SAE	? probably not - The Clio is moderated user-generated, but still user-generated	Doesn't have much to say about Patton	✘ No
Owen, Thomas McAdory (1921). History of Alabama and Dictionary of Alabama Biography. S. J. Clarke Publishing Company. p. 1247.			Passing mention in description of SAE	✘ No
"Sigma Alpha Epsilon Group Will Observe Anniversary". The Daily Oklahoman. Oklahoma City, Oklahoma.			Mentions him in a list of founders with no detail	✘ No
Anson, Jack L.; Marchenasi, Robert F., eds. (1991) [1879]. Baird's Manual of American Fraternities (20th ed.)			? Can't access source, but presumable is largely equivalent to the similar source 6	? Unknown
This table may not be a final or consensus view; it may summarize developing consensus, or reflect assessments of a single editor. Created using ((source assess table)).

Source	Independent?	Reliable?	Significant coverage?	Count source toward GNG?
Source assessment table: prepared by User:Hog Farm
"Brothers' Mark Sigma Alpha Epsilon Centennial". The Boston Globe.			Very brief mention of him getting killed	✘ No
Burial Records : Abner Edwin Patton". Hollywood Cemetery.	Public burial records not independent		Only gives grave location and years of birth/death	✘ No
"Fraternity Honors One of Its Founders". Richmond Times-Dispatch. Richmond, Virginia. 1951-09-13				✔ Yes
" Lurding, Carroll and Becque, Fran. (February 19, 2023) "Sigma Alpha Epsilon." Almanac of Fraternities and Sororities. Urbana: University of Illinois	Giving it the benefit of the doubt here	ditto as above	Not significant coverage of Patton	✘ No
Carr, Timothy (April 8, 2010). "Sigma Alpha Epsilon Historical Marker". Historic Marker Database		HMDB is user-generated	Patton is mention as a founder in a list	✘ No
"Tuscaloosa". Alabama Historical Association			Passing mention of Patton	✘ No
This table may not be a final or consensus view; it may summarize developing consensus, or reflect assessments of a single editor. Created using ((source assess table)).

So I just went through and evaluated all of the sources cited in the article. I think the best bet here is going to be to redirect to the fraternity, where there is some coverage of him, as Patton doesn't seem to have done anything noteworthy besides found the organization. Hog Farm _Talk 16:58, 12 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - I disagree with you that a redirect is the 'best bet' on this one. The article should be kept. This is an arbitrary rush to !delete or otherwise !redirect. In good faith several of us have substantially improved the article. There is a strong precedent to A), list fraternity founders, B) provide articles about some of them. This gets to the nub of the Deletionist versus Inclusionist argument on Wikipedia: The resource (Wikipedia) is far more valuable if we aren't so heavy with the broomstick. We have the disk space; many of this long-deceased person's fraternity brothers would be interested in the article, and there is no doubt that he existed and that he did what is purported. As a work-in-progress, editors are finding more and more secondary sources to quote. Sources on this particular individual are likely to be in physical books, which require time to collect.

Big picture, I myself use the GNG lens to review articles about living persons, and especially their works. Too often, these are publicity-seeking. This is not the case here. Rather, this article offers a fair summary about a person who is notable, and was even more notable in the past. And I remind us all, Wikipedia rules state that notability does not decrease over time.

Let us continue to improve this article, now that the broader Project group is aware of it. Jax MN (talk) 17:23, 13 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Answering Hog Farm, Thanks for your work on this. Very thorough and thoughtful. I believe the first source should be independent because I used the webpage content written by archival librarians at the University of Alabama, not the content of the archival collection which consists of letters Patton wrote during the Civil War. Also, The Clio is frequently used as a source in architectural articles in Wikipedia (I am a member of WP Architecture). Most of its content is written by scholars or their students, and only known scholars from approved organizations can edit and add content. Regardless, your assessment of its coverage is correct. Ludwig is also independent—refer to the Almanac of Fraternities and Sororities at the University of Illinois. This work was published and is hosted by the University of Illinois library. Lurding, the original author, was a member of Delta Upsilon, and Dr. Fran Becque, its current editor, is a member of Pi Beta Phi and a noted greek letter scholar. Again, the independence of the resources doesn't make this a significant coverage, but should probably be reflected in your table above. Rublamb (talk) 20:39, 13 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Redirect to Sigma Alpha Epsilon as an alternative to deletion per above. // Timothy :: talk 01:29, 19 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.