The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Lord Roem ~ (talk) 16:00, 28 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Akira Komatsu[edit]

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He did not play for national team and fully-professional leagues. It does not meet Wikipedia:Notability (sports)#Association football. 忍者小僧 (talk) 14:38, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Automated comment: This AfD was not correctly transcluded to the log (step 3). I have transcluded it to Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Log/2019 November 14. —^{cyberbot I}_{Talk to my owner:Online} 14:52, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Football-related deletion discussions. Lightburst (talk) 15:01, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Japan-related deletion discussions. Lightburst (talk) 15:01, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. Lightburst (talk) 15:06, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - Given this is about GNG, we're going to need to verify a GNG failure given the language barrier. [1], already in article, suggests this individual could be notable. The apparent name translation (小松晃) brings up 3,490,000 results, likely not all about them but who knows. The Japanese Wiki also shows this, [2], which shows he played for a Japan national team; doesn't seem to be the 'A' team, but adds to the possibility of notability through GNG. Also worth noting that professionalism didn't come to Japan until 1992. R96Skinner (talk) 16:35, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related deletions.CAPTAIN RAJU^(T) 17:09, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Is this a joke? 58 appearances for Yanmar Diesel in the top division? Article needs improving and expanding, not deleting. Nfitz (talk) 04:18, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
- It is an amateur league. So, it does not meet Wikipedia:Notability (sports)#Association football. 忍者小僧 (talk) 08:33, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  - How is GNG not met, 忍者小僧? It's tough to search contemporary Japanese pre-Internet documents, but a Google News search, get's dozens of hits for relatively recent media article, some of it in-depth easily meeting GNG, about his career, and a Google Internet search yields over 3000 hits, many of which seem to be about this individual (going through the first few pages of results). Nfitz (talk) 17:50, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    - Most of them are about his goal at high school club.youtube I don't think that it meet notability guideline. 忍者小僧 (talk) 06:06, 16 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
      - Paragraphs and paragraphs nearly 40 years later about his goal in high school - think about it for a minute 忍者小僧. Of course it's not just about the goal, but how he ~~was the youngest player to ever play at the top level afterwards, and how he~~ didn't achieve expectations, though the goal is definitely a key part in many of these articles that are significant coverage. Some of course are more routine, about his high school coaching career, or his legal issues. But there's several that easily meet GNG. Nfitz (talk) 02:54, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per nom. Fifthavenuebrands (talk) 13:22, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - fails WP:GNG and WP:NFOOTBALL. Giant Snowman 15:32, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Keep per new sources and discussion below. Giant Snowman 08:53, 28 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

~~Delete – no evidence of notability.~~ (Updated !vote below.) Neither the 2011 nor the 2016 Sponichi articles look like SIGCOV to me, and the others aren't secondary sources AFAICT. – Levivich 00:13, 16 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Levivich: What are the 2011 and 2016 articles about? I was sure they meet GNG so I put them myself to deprod the article. ミラ P 04:04, 19 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Hi ミラ, unless maybe I'm mis-reading it, the 2011 article is just two paragraphs (four sentences) reporting that Komatsu was fired for assault. The 2016 article is longer, but 6 of the 7 paragraphs are about a half-court goal he scored (in high school? I think 忍者小僧 posted the video above), and his entire playing and coaching career is only summed up in one paragraph (second from the bottom). I don't think it gives us enough information to write an encyclopedia article about him. So I would say the 2011 isn't GNG at all, and the 2016 is maybe GNG about the half-court goal, but not about the player and the player's overall career. – Levivich 05:01, 19 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I think you've summed up those two particular articles well User:Levivich; I think the 2016 article (36 years after he left high school!) combined with another one or two good articles meet GNG. But as I keep pointing out, a quick google search, finds several detailed articles - many years after his glory days - (one notes on how many interviews he used to give back in the 1980s - and yet we don't have access to 1980s Japanese media). I'm having a hard time seeing how he wouldn't achieve GNG. Generally, someone with so many starts and goals at the top flight would easily meet NFootball - but that isn't true for 1980s Japanese players, because of the quirk of non-professionalism, and the use of large companies bankrolling the teams, using "employees". I'm curious on what kind of attendance the league drew in the 1980s - I don't get the impression that it was 100 per game - but I genuinely haven't found any information (though I admit that doesn't prove anything ... though I'd assume that if was in the thousands to tens of thousands, that someone who played 9 seasons at that level, would have coverage if we could accesss 1980s Japanese media). Nfitz (talk) 05:13, 19 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Nfitz, Maybe, but we can't just assume that such coverage exists, and more importantly, we cant write an article without having those sources so that we can use them to flesh out an article. Even if you are right, it is a chicken and egg situation, we still need those sources before we can make an article on him. If anyone actually finds them in the future, there won't be any prejudice towards re-creation. — Insertcleverphrasehere ^{(or here)}_{(click me!)} 19:10, 19 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Why are you saying, User:Insertcleverphrasehere that they don't exist? I've quickly seen several detailed articles, as I note above, using this search that I'm linking here for the third time! I've started fleshing out the article, based on this. Nfitz (talk) 19:15, 19 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Nfitz, I have had a look at those sources, and they seem lacking in significant coverage about him specifically. Basically there is a bit about this one 50m shot he made in high school; that's it. — Insertcleverphrasehere ^{(or here)}_{(click me!)} 19:20, 19 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

That's not what I'm seeing - at least one talked about his failed national career after the Poland cap. Another talked about him being the youngest player in the history of the Japan Soccer League, and how that played into him being left out of match day line-ups, which lead to him being left out of the national squad. I'll add some more references over the next few days - but I've little time, and it's slow going, with the language barrier. Though, even what we've referenced, seems very unusual for almost 40 years after his big break. I've got to think 1980s Japanese media (how does one even access that) would show more. Nfitz (talk) 20:48, 19 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

It should be important to note that the inconsistent issue of source availability is discussed in the first section of this link. ミラ P 04:43, 21 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Delete does not even meet the absurdly low notability guidelines for footballers.John Pack Lambert (talk) 01:44, 19 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

How, User:Johnpacklambert is GNG an absurdly low notability guideline? How do many of the articles here not meet GNG? I assume you have examined them. Nfitz (talk) 02:01, 19 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Delete - After having a look at the sources listed by others, and looking over the sources listed in the Japanese article, I have to agree that it doesn't pass the bar of GNG. Not enough significant coverage in those sources about him specifically. Not sure how Japan-wiki does notability, but if he doesn't pass GNG, he doesn't pass GNG. The Ashai article is OK and Sports Nippon article is borderline at best, but they are at least reliable sources. Together they could be argued to meet the GNG, though barely. Honestly no idea on the reliability of the Kisocook source, but it is in depth. There seems to be a reasonable likelihood that the guy also featured in a TV show on TBS, though this isn't really confirmed. Honestly on balance I'm willing to swap to keep per WP:HEY. The article has been improved and there is verifiable info contained therein. The wiki is better with this article than without it. — Insertcleverphrasehere ^{(or here)}_{(click me!)} 21:00, 26 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - Looking at the article, I feel like the article would indeed fail WP:NFOOTY as the Japan Soccer League during that time wasn't a professional league which is a part of the criteria for the guideline. So by virtual of that, I would vote to delete. HawkAussie (talk) 22:48, 19 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per rationale provided by @HawkAussie: & @Insertcleverphrasehere:. Fails WP:NFOOTY. Celestina007 (talk) 20:23, 20 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Why User:Celestina007 do you feel it fails NFOOTY? I added information and references to the article, since anyone else commented here other than you, showing that it passes NFOOTY with at least one international cap (against Poland in 1981). Nfitz (talk) 22:16, 20 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

As R96 Skinner commented at the beginning of this discussion, it is not Japan national "A" team. And Polish national team is U-21 team, not senior team. Nfitz showed this article as a source Akira_Komatsu. This source article have two pages and this is the second page of two pages. First page says that "Japan fought a series of four games against Poland. Poland is a U-21 team." So, it fails NFOOTY. 忍者小僧 (talk) 08:57, 21 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comment People who are saying that the subject fails NFOOTY should also take into account the fact that a footballer who fails NFOOTY can still clear GNG. ミラ P 04:43, 21 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Miraclepine, Ultimately, once sources have been thoroughly searched, NFOOTY or any SNG is kinda meaningless. SNGs are only a rule of thumb, sourcing per the GNG is where notability is ultimately decided. There are very few exceptions amongst the SNGs, and WP:NSPORTS isn't one of them. — Insertcleverphrasehere ^{(or here)}_{(click me!)} 08:26, 21 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: I closed as delete without realising work was being done on the article, which might now meet GNG.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Fenix down (talk) 15:55, 21 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I've mostly rewritten the article, adding several sources, there's now 3 that meet GNG. There's now a very good source that easily passes GNG Ashai, one very extensive source that could pass GNG, though I admit I don't fully understand the provenance kisocook, and the existing source that I also noted earlier meets GNG Sports Nippon 2016, in addition to other references, don't meet GNG, but confirm facts. There's also a red herring that technically he does meet NFOOTBALL with a half-hour played in an official international A match - despite Poland playing a young squad ... but that's really immaterial, as it's GNG that's important here, not NFOOTBALL. I should have spoken up about this a couple of days ago, but I wanted to add another good source - but I've not had the time to dig further. Nfitz (talk) 17:51, 21 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Nfitz, The Ashai and Sports Nippon articles still don't impress me. The Kisocook article has enough coverage but is this considered a reliable source? I can't see any evidence of any kind of editorial policy on the site, in fact, I'm not entirely certain what kind of site this is, is it a blog site? Is it a news aggregator? I don't know. — Insertcleverphrasehere ^{(or here)}_{(click me!)} 18:11, 21 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

To be honest User:Insertcleverphrasehere that concern was why I hadn't spoken up yet, as I wanted to dig into that further. You are still concerned about Ashai? I only added it about 36 hours ago, after you reviewed. Was it used somewhere else? Nfitz (talk) 18:33, 21 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Nfitz, it was in the search that you linked above. — Insertcleverphrasehere ^{(or here)}_{(click me!)} 18:53, 21 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Ah! Good to see someone actually looked at it! I still like that source, and to a lesser extent the Sports Nippon one. I wish we had access to 1980s Japanese media though. Nfitz (talk) 23:49, 21 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I've been trying to understand, User:Insertcleverphrasehere, the kiscook.com reference better, as it's by far the most extensive biographical source, though it's provenance is iffy. The date on it is August 11, 2019. I've discovered this is the same day, that Komatsu was featured in an episode of the TBS Television series Disappeared Genius. I'm wondering if this is a transcript or something? Perhaps someone with more awareness of Japanese television can confirm if this is the case or not, in which case, a reference to the television episode, would supply a great GNG source. I've added a reference to TBS's website for the episode pre-announcement itself, and some other references that summarize his more recent coaching career (none of which meet GNG in themselves). Nfitz (talk) 18:14, 26 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Nfitz, What is this TV episode? If anything would point toward GNG, that would. I don't see his name mentioned in the summary you linked though (at least not in google translate). Could you clarify? — Insertcleverphrasehere ^{(or here)}_{(click me!)} 18:21, 26 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

User:Insertcleverphrasehere, The August 11 episode. The TBS link was a pre-broadcast teaser, doesn't mention his name, but describes his famous 1981 goal. But there's a sudden surge of Internet activity about that date, and he's explicitly listed as being featured in that episode, in the Japanese language Wikipedia article for the program ja:消えた天才#レギュラー時代. But as we can't used Wikipedia as a source, I hope to find something else to confirm that. Nfitz (talk) 18:44, 26 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Nfitz, that’s not enough to confirm, though it does sound plausible. It explains why a (seemingly) tabloid source like kiscook would suddenly start talking about him after all this time. It could be coincidence though, so I’m inclined to say that the sourcing still isn’t quite there unless we can confirm somehow. — Insertcleverphrasehere ^{(or here)}_{(click me!)} 19:13, 26 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

User:InsertcleverphrasehereIt's more than plausible, as I've seen other stuff, that doesn't reference particularly well. I'm hoping that someone can fill in the blanks, or that there's something more I can find, that does close the loop completely - I agree that the sourcing still isn't quite there for the TV appearance (though I've already disagreeed as I think the older Ashai and SportsNippon articles achieve GNG on their own). Nfitz (talk) 19:55, 26 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

See my comment above. I've decided to swap to Keep, though I think it is borderline at best with the confirmed sources (specifically: ashai is ok, SportsNippon falls short of significant coverage to me), I think that given the evidence we have, there are other sources out there that would fill any gap towards meeting GNG, and that he likely did feature on said TV show. — Insertcleverphrasehere ^{(or here)}_{(click me!)} 21:00, 26 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks - I finally found a reference I've just added that does explicitly reference his name, the TV show, and the broadcast date - just to tie up that loose end. Nfitz (talk) 07:22, 28 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Pinging Celestina007, HawkAussie, Johnpacklambert, GiantSnowman, Fifthavenuebrands. — Insertcleverphrasehere ^{(or here)}_{(click me!)} 08:05, 28 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Weak keep (changed from delete) – Still really borderline in my opinion. But Sports Nippon is an RS; their 2016 article as I said above is mostly about the high school goal and has very little about the rest of his career. Now I see the Asahi Shimbun 2018 article Nfitz posted [3]; that's also an RS, and again much of the article is about his high school goal, but it does have more about his career than the Sports Nippon article, and it was written in 2018. This Kisocook.com (aka cococom.com) article is very in-depth, but it doesn't seem like it's an RS. I can't find any information about that website or its editorial oversight, but then I don't speak Japanese. Still, that's two sources (Sports Nippon and Asahi) that are definitely RS and have more than 500 words about the subject, albeit mostly about the high school goal. If Kisocook.com were an RS, then that'd be a clear GNG source. The coverage overall seems to meet WP:SUSTAINED and WP:AUD, which mitigates WP:BLP1E concerns for me. Nfitz has a point that–hey, they're still talking about his 50m shot in the high school championship, 40 years later. That does kind of show some lasting notability, can't deny it. I think it's weak evidence on GNG itself, but tie goes to the HEY, so changing my !vote from delete to weak keep with thanks to Nfitz for improving the article. – Levivich 18:18, 21 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Keep per Nfitz and Levivich. Meeting GNG, even if just barely, is still meeting GNG. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 17:38, 26 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.