- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. There is a general consensus against deletion, particularly after the relist. While there's no consensus in favor of a merge, it can, of course, be discussed further outside of AFD. Eddie891 Talk Work 20:47, 15 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- Apokolips (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)
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The coverage (references, external links, etc.) does not seem sufficient to justify this article passing Wikipedia:General notability guideline and the more detailed Wikipedia:Notability (fiction) requirement. WP:BEFORE did not reveal any significant coverage on Gnews, Gbooks or Gscholar. The usual dePROD with no helpful rationale, so here we go. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 04:06, 27 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Fictional elements-related deletion discussions. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 04:06, 27 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Science fiction and fantasy-related deletion discussions. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 04:06, 27 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Comics and animation-related deletion discussions. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 04:06, 27 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep: Apokolips is a planet that is highly integral to the Superman franchise in multiple forms of fiction. Just the many reviews of the film Justice League Dark: Apokolips War gives coverage of Apokolips, considering that is where much of the plot takes place. Similar coverage can be seen for the video game Superman: Shadow of Apokolips. There is also coverage such as Batman v Superman Deleted Scene Links Apokolips to Justice League (2017). Deleting this article would be similar to deleting the article on the major Superman villain Darkseid, and practically all coverage for that villian would have coverage on Apokolips, the planet that he rules over. SL93 (talk) 04:21, 27 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- Instead of saying WP:THEREMUSTBESOURCES can you link to articles that contain non-trivial (non passing, in-depth) discussion of this setting that go beyond plot summary? The first link you provided is a collection of reviews of a game that feature this location, that's a fail of WP:NOTINHERITED. The second links is a mention in passing, and again, the fact that this was a setting of a notable movie does not make the location notable. The source very clearly does not go beyond trivial plot summaries. As for Darkseid, let's discuss it at his own AfD, if he gets it one day (given his current article is a pure plot summary/list of appearances), WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 04:58, 27 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm not going to change my vote and responding to every keep vote rarely helps matters. SL93 (talk) 05:01, 27 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- @Piotrus: I proved Darkseid's notability easily after only three minutes of searching on Google and I added those sources to the article on the character. I would potentially understand merging the article to Darkseid, but deleting the article entirely doesn't make any sense. SL93 (talk) 05:40, 27 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- Redirect to Darkseid per WP:ATD-R. This is definitely a valid search term that should take the reader somewhere relevant. I could be persuaded to go keep if good evidence is brought here, but I don't have the energy to go looking for it. Maybe someone highlighted the design somewhere... For now, I just wanted to at least state that outright deletion is not necessary. -2pou (talk) 06:36, 27 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep An important location in the DC Universe for decades and has been depicted in multiple media. I think it is best for users for this to remain as it's own page, rather than be redirected to Darkseid. One other possibility, and this is just a thought, is to merge with New Genesis considering their histories are so intertwined and they are often depicted in stories together. Sources about Kirby's creation and design of the planets could also be added. Rhino131 (talk) 13:00, 27 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- Redirect or delete - Being a prominent setting is not indicative of coverage in sources. Wikipedia is no longer a site that covers fiction for the sake of covering fiction like in the 2005-ish era. Sources need to be provided to meet WP:GNG and fulfill WP:WAF. TTN (talk) 13:23, 27 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep - Highly pivotal part of both Superman and Jack Kirby's Fourth World lore, and integral to the topic of comics. Darkknight2149 11:00, 28 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment There is some analysis of the location in the book Superheroes of the Round Table: Comics Connections to Medieval and Renaissance Literature. Chapter 2 is specifically about Kirby's fourth world. Unfortunately not all pages are available in the preview (I wish I could see page 71- I bet there is some good content). At any rate, even if the page is redirected to Darkseid this would be a useful source for that article. Rhino131 (talk) 22:31, 28 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- @Rhino131: Good news is that you can read page 70 on Amazon: [1]. But I don't think it helps much, it is more PLOT summary, through at the bottom there are two sentences about aesthetics and such, but it is still more description than analysis.PS. Ah, you meant 71. No, that one is not available as well, but since it doesn't come up in the search at all for "Apokolips" it may have no relevant content. It could be just a picture, for example. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 01:19, 29 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- @Piotrus: I think you are right and it is a picture. I can read page 72 from the Google preview and it looks to start up right where page 70 ends. And I'd give a bit more weight to the source than you do; anything associated with Jack Kirby will get more attention than the average comic location. There is a difference between Apokolips and something like Tamaran, for example, which is truly minor. Rhino131 (talk) 01:39, 29 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- @Rhino131: Based on a number of recent AfDs comments I am thinking Kirby's article needs some additional expansion (even though it is a GA already). Or perhaps Fourth World (comics) would be a good place to discuss this. Or maybe a new dedicated article about impact / reception of his works in general. But the sad truth is most of what we have is pure plot / appearances fancruft, and most of the reception we find is both in passing and not in our articles anyway. Sigh. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 03:06, 29 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- @Piotrus: I could get behind that idea. The Fourth World article could use a good impact/reception section- there is certainly real-world information out there about the concept as a whole, if not all the individual characters and locations. Rhino131 (talk) 03:20, 29 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete or redirect as lacking real-world coverage to pass the WP:GNG, and also create something that's WP:NOT#PLOT. This location can be covered in the context of the stories in which it appears, and does not support a stand-alone article. Shooterwalker (talk) 03:56, 31 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep - planet is integral to DC Comics storylines and has been depicted in fictional media already.Valkyrie Red (talk) 05:56, 31 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep: "Hell Hath No Furies", a two-page article in The Collected Jack Kirby Collector, Volume 1 (TwoMorrows Publishing, 2004) about the gender power balance on Apokolips. Yes, before you say that it's plot information, it does include descriptions and explanations of fictional material — and then it reflects on that material, doing textual analysis on a particular theme. That's what you do, when you write analysis of fiction. Similarly, the article "Love of Anti-? Life" in The Jack Kirby Collector #71 (2017) analyzes the meaning of several major Fourth World concepts, including Apokolips. Check out page 30: "No one on Apokolips evolves spiritually because there is no love. It is a stagnant society, its inhabitants living in ignorance, the legacy of oppression." This is also not plot information; it is lit-crit analysis. For my third of WP:THREE, The Comics Journal #175 (March 1995) has an article about Kirby's work and influence. I can only see a snippet view, but the snippet of page 76 shows the first part of a passage that looks like analysis: "Kirby tells us what the citizens of Darkseid's realm feel about their lot in life: 'Apokolips is an armed camp where"... I think there's a good chance that that passage is going somewhere significant. I believe that this demonstrates that analysis of Kirby's work focuses on Apokolips as a significant concept. — Toughpigs (talk) 02:14, 2 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sandstein 11:02, 4 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep per Toughpigs' convincing analysis. AleatoryPonderings (talk) 12:24, 4 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep Indeed, on rethinking this, it looks like there is enough sources, and this is a major concept in the comic univerise - Deathlibrarian (talk) 13:27, 4 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep. An IDONTLIKEIT nomination bolstered by failure to expend the effort required to review the many print sources where extensive coverage can be found. The Big Bad Wolfowitz (aka Hullaballoo). Treated like dirt by many administrators since 2006. Fight for freedom, stand with Hong Kong! (talk) 00:23, 5 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep or Redirect to maybe Fourth World (comics)?. This is a major setting that has appeared in at least a dozen series as well as a handful of cartoons and games. Easily passes WP:NCOMIC. --~ฅ(ↀωↀ=)neko-channyan 16:55, 5 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- Redirect or merge. I see some short mentions here and instead of arguing about whether they are trivial, there is enough to write a few sentences in another article, with the potential for expansion if more sources are found. Archrogue (talk) 19:31, 6 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- Redirect to Darkseid as it is only notable in the context of that character.ZXCVBNM (TALK) 13:05, 8 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.