The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 18:47, 21 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Arsenal and Manchester United football rivalry[edit]

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Procedural nom after contested PROD. Reason for prod was "The "rivalry" between Arsenal and Manchester United is not a major rivalry akin to the rivalry between Liverpool and Manchester United or between Celtic and Rangers." Prod removed with the reason that the two teams sometimes have a "perceived rivalry". – Pee Jay 17:11, 14 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football related deletions. – Pee Jay 17:15, 14 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Although there was some rivalry between Wenger and Ferguson and some between Vieira and Keane I don't think it's enough for this article to avoid deletion. Spiderone (talk) 17:17, 14 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - a source from The Independent states that this is a "bitter rivalry that has existed between the two sides for decades" - and yet there is a distinct lack of sources, so perhaps it's not as notable as the paper makes out. Can anyone find any more sources to attest to this supposed rivalry? Giant Snowman 17:21, 14 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Keep, it has been widely commented on and therefore satisfies WP:N and WP:V, eg 1, eg 2, eg 3, eg 4, eg 5. It is mostly to do with Wenger v Ferguson, but there are examples from further back, particularly a notorious match in 1990. I would class it as being similar to Aberdeen F.C. v Rangers F.C. (which curiously doesn't have an article on wikipedia) - not a local geographic rivalry, but a match that became increasingly heated over a period of time primarily due to on-field incidents. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 17:26, 14 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm not convinced that a few heated matches between 1998 and 2006 and another in 1990 amount to a rivalry on the scale of the Old Firm, Liverpool v United or Arsenal v Spurs. – PeeJay 17:36, 14 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  - Not every rivalry is of that scale or longevity. Like I said earlier, Aberdeen v Rangers was a very heated rivalry for a while in the 1980s (funny how these rivalries seem to follow Ferguson around!), but nobody would rank it as being anywhere near the Old Firm game now. Similarly, Arsenal v Man Utd was the key rivalry in English football from approximately 1998-2004, as either team won the Premier League each year, with no other team really challenging for the title. I think WP:NTEMP applies. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 22:38, 14 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

If it can be expanded a bit then I'll change my vote. Spiderone (talk) 17:27, 14 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Delete not notable! --Rockstone (talk) 17:55, 14 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

But how is it not notable? Giant Snowman 17:55, 14 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - there's enough sources out there to confirm notability. I myself remember a famous heated 0-0 a few years back that got ridiculous coverage, plus a brawl in a tunnel that was dissected the same way. Managers have commented and rebutted extensively especially when it was just those two challenging for the league. It's a 90s-00s rivalry, but nonetheless it has coverage depth and verifiability. Also I don't think it's wise to compare it to other articles. WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS works both ways. Rafablu88 19:39, 14 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
KeepAs long as it gets cleaned up with verifiable sources there should be no problem. Go ahead and meniton in the article that it is not historicaly as prevelant as others but it still exists.Cptnono (talk) 02:21, 15 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Possibly Keep If it can be expanded and properly referenced then keep it, in it's current state I would say delete. AirRaidPatrol 84 (talk) 07:33, 15 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of United Kingdom-related deletion discussions. -- Cybercobra (talk) 04:39, 15 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Football-related deletion discussions. -- Cybercobra (talk) 04:39, 15 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Weak keep Provided it gets a few more references. Spiderone (talk) 08:19, 15 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. Meets the general notability guideline, as the rivalry has received significant coverage in reliable sources. (See Google News and JMorrison230582's links above.) Jafeluv (talk) 08:35, 15 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment The problem is that people are likely to nominate this page again since it doesn't look like there's enough on there for it to pass. Spiderone (talk) 08:53, 15 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Keep as Jmorrison230582 and Jafeluv have shown, this meets WP:GNG. Giant Snowman 08:39, 15 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I'm surprised if this is not considered a rivalry, since Manchester United and Arsenal have accounted for so many Premier League championships (first place finish) since the PL was founded. In some years, particularly at the turn of the century, it was a case of the teams finishing #1 and #2. In America, we tend to think of such #1 vs. #2 meetings as important, and if they've happened several times (Steelers-Cowboys, Celtics-Lakers, etc) they're considered rivalries. Maybe that's not as big a deal in England, and since I'm not a Brit, I can't see voting. Mandsford (talk) 22:56, 15 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - it might not be one of the classic rivalries, but it's still a significant part of football with substantive media coverage. Just because it's not the Old Firm doesn't mean we can't have an article on it too. matt91486 (talk) 23:48, 15 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - worth a mention in passing on the club articles if you must, but there's really nothing special about this "rivalry" at all. - fchd (talk) 16:14, 19 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - meets notability, see no valid reason to delete. Rlendog (talk) 18:57, 20 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.