The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Merge to Tolkien family. —Quarl ^(talk) 2007-03-07 11:16Z

Baillie Tolkien[edit]

Procedural AfD; was a deleted prod, now contested. [1]. Undeleted the article to allow for AfD.-- Fang Aili ^talk 02:04, 1 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Delete Does not assert notability. Mr.Z-mantalk¢ 02:30, 1 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Change back to Merge as per Mr. Manticore's convincing argument below.~~Merge into J.R.R. Tolkien, but only the fact that she edited the volume, not the family information. It seems worth a sentence or a phrase in that main article. Then Delete~~ Noroton 03:21, 1 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Just so you know, Wikipedia does not merge and delete, as that violates the GFDL which requires a record of the actual editing be kept.

FrozenPurpleCube 03:59, 1 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, OK, good to know. Then just delete and let the editors retype the information if they find it worthwhile. I love Tolkien, and I've got nothing against the subject of the article, but even a redirect page is a waste of pixels and however many pennies it takes to host that page. Those pennies could be put to better use! Noroton 12:32, 1 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, redirects are cheap, costing far less than the effort of researching the information on the page. It's not a question of pennies, but thousandths of cents.

While storage costs in the aggregate are a concern, as regards to individual pages it's of almost zero consequence. Furthermore, the benefit of a redirect is very high, instead of a search result, it automatically moves the person doing the looking to an appropriate place. FrozenPurpleCube 19:13, 1 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, OK, splurge on those thousandths of a cent! Let no one say I'm not willing to change my mind. Splurge and merge. Noroton 21:59, 1 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Merge and redirect to Christopher Tolkien, the husband, where the family information may be of use. Also Mention in J.R.R. Tolkien, and The Father Christmas Letters. -- saberwyn 03:25, 1 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Merge per Saberwyn. A couple of facts are missing from CJRT's article and it's not an implausible redirect. Eluchil404 04:02, 1 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Merge, agree with Saberwyn. Realkyhick 05:59, 1 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Merge into J.R.R. Tolkien. Daniel5127 | Talk 07:22, 1 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Merge any useful information with J.R.R. Tolkien. Terence Ong 恭喜发财 08:34, 1 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Keep per the argument at Talk:Baillie Tolkien - there are five articles you could merge to (Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Itransition, Christopher Tolkien, The Father Christmas Letters, Tolkien Estate, and Simon Tolkien), though the Simon Tolkien is itself a borderline case of merge/keep. Even the merge votes here cannot agree which article to merge to. Also, the article could be expanded a little. Possibly the right method is to have an article on Tolkien family (a redirect at the moment), and put Baillie, Simon and Tim there (plus other minor members of the family, such as Edith Tolkien [though she currently has, and maybe should keep, her own article] and Arthur Tolkien (ditto, as for Edith), though Mabel Tolkien is a redirect), along with the family tree, and change existing uses of this family tree template into link to the family article. Christopher Tolkien and J. R. R. Tolkien need their own article. The others are more borderline, and a full family article would be a natural place to include the family tree and add what is known about the other members (such as Tolkien's brother, Hilary). So I'd say keep or create the article Tolkien family (currently a redirect to Tolkien Estate). Carcharoth 09:43, 1 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- This might well be the best option. As long as this AfD closes Merge/Keep, the direction of the redirect and location of the information are editorial decisions that can be changed later if a better solution is found. Eluchil404 10:53, 1 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Being related to multiple notable people is no more an assertion of notability than being related to just one notable person. It is preferable to mention her where appropriate in any of the other articles, rather than maintain a standalone article that does not meet inclusion criteria. Merge to Christopher Tolkien as he is her husband and thus the most direct relationship. Arkyan 15:52, 1 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment, I am the one who closed the PROD as a delete. Subject doesn't meet WP:BIO in any appreciable way. I'd be fine with a redirect or merge to either J.R.R. Tolkien or a new article on the Tolkien family that could collect the more marginal members of this family in one article. Some of the individuals Carcharoth mentioned meet WP:BIO but Baillie and others do not and don't really justify standalone articles.--Isotope23 15:45, 1 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
weak keep she is N as the editor of J. R. R. Tolkien's Letters from Father Christmas and she was previously J. R. R Tolkien's secretary. But a merge to Tolkien family makes sense, as well. DGG 00:36, 2 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - Tolkien family should be changed from a redirect and articles on minor members of the family (including Baillie Tolkien) can be merged into that page. Additionally, the information in Template:Tolkien (which is also up for deletion) can be moved to the Tolkien family page while the template is deleted. >^..^< Nimfaelin 08:38, 5 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Merge into Tolkein Family. Not notable in own right. NBeale 15:16, 5 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.