The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. Note that merging might be appropriate in some cases, but I don't believe a specific instance of that is clear here. I weighted the later discussion a little more strongly as the articles have been improved, negating some of the earlier deletes/merges (about being unreferenced, etc) WilyD 11:32, 20 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Comment This can be tricky because American Idol finalist meet WP:MUSIC by placing in American Idol yet aren't well known Musicians.--Jeffrd10 (talk) 14:13, 21 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Merge (where applicable, otherwise redirect) into American Idol (season 13)#Finalists. What little biographical information exists within each contestant's article is mostly already contained in the Finalists section of the Season 13 page. Songs performed from the semifinals-on are also duplicated from the individuals' pages. That leaves so little unique material in each contestant article that it might be too soon to branch off just yet, even if they technically meet WP:MUSICBIO #9 by way of placing in the finals. Gong show 00:36, 27 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Keep: I wouldn't strongly oppose most of these being merged to American Idol (season 13) for the time being, but the ideal situation I think, would be for these articles to be kept and improved. I've already spent some time on the Jessica Meuse article, having gone into more detail than could be merged into the season article. I would definitely be disappointed if this one is merged. As for the others, all of them certainly meet the notability criteria, both of WP:MUSICBIO, having "placed in a major music competition", and of Wikipedia:Notability, since they all have received significant coverage in reliable independent sources. --Jpcase (talk) 05:41, 27 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Everyone talks about them being notable for "placing" but what actually defines placing? Usually placing is top 4 or above (at most). Is there anywhere that specifies that for American Idol, placing is if you land in the top 13? Because I don't see a difference between placing in the top 13 or the top 30.. Both are significant milestones on the show. Gloss • talk 21:57, 27 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
"Placing" in this context means "making the finals". On American Idol, the top 30 is considered the semi-finals, whereas the top 13 is considered the finals (here's a reference for that [1]). Also, from top 13 onwards, all of the contestants' performances are released on iTunes. --Jpcase (talk) 15:35, 28 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, NorthAmerica1000 03:24, 3 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Firstly, this is an unreferenced blp. Secondly, it is WP:TOOSOON for him to be notable. Boleyn (talk) 21:43, 7 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
WP:TOOSOON says that articles shouldn't be created about topics that are not verifiable in independent secondary reliable sources. All of these people have received a very high level of coverage from many independent, secondary, reliable sources. Yes, several of these articles haven't been referenced yet, but that doesn't mean that the references don't exist. --Jpcase (talk) 22:53, 7 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Keep, per WP:MUSICBIO #9 would apply. When someone is a finalist on this show, they are all but guaranteed local, regional, state, and national coverage, in print, and on television. Sportfan5000 (talk) 00:56, 8 March 2014 (UTC) [WP:BAN Unscintillating (talk) 00:01, 24 March 2014 (UTC)][reply]
Would WP:BLP1E apply here? Serious question, as I'm not sure. (regardless of MUSICBIO) Gloss • talk 05:54, 8 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
WP:BLP1E says that an article should not be created on a topic "when each of three conditions is met"; the third condition is not applicable here - American Idol is one of the most watched television shows in America and has launched the careers of many high profile singers, so it's definitely a significant event, and each of these individual's roles in American Idol is substantial and well documented. So no, I don't think that WP:BLP1E would apply. --Jpcase (talk) 06:08, 8 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The second part of the third condition talks about if the person wasn't significant to the event. That seems like the case with just about anyone who doesn't make the top 2 (maybe 3). Gloss • talk 06:14, 8 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
With some other competitions, I would probably agree with you. In the case of American Idol though, a contestant does not need to make the top 2 or 3 to be significant to the event. As Sportfan5000 and I have already pointed out, there exists a very deep well of quality resources to draw from on any one of these people. Typically, that's all that's needed for a subject to be considered notable enough for Wikipedia. However, several quality references probably also exist for anyone who only makes the semifinals (top 30 this year, but the exact number varies from year to year). Heck, if we were only going by the general notability guidelines, then articles could possibly be created for some of the people who simply audition - American Idol gets a lot of coverage by the media. Personally though, I wouldn't advocate for anyone who fails to make the finals to receive their own Wikipedia page (unless, of course, they manage to gain notability some other way - e.g. John Park (musician)). I feel that the show's finalists (top 13 this year, but this number also varies from year to year) should be treated differently a few reasons; besides the mere distinction that they're considered finalists, and the aforementioned fact that typically, all of their performances are released on iTunes (this hasn't seemed to happen yet this year, but as far as I know, it's a first for the series), various finalists have been invited back to the show in later seasons to perform. I'm pretty much positive that no semi-finalist has ever gotten this opportunity. --Jpcase (talk) 15:27, 8 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. I didn't realized this discussion was intended for all of the finalists, which is fairly ridiculous, but my reasoning stands for all - per WP:MUSICBIO #9 would apply. When someone is a finalist on this show, they are all but guaranteed local, regional, state, and national coverage, in print, and on television. Similar and derivative shows? Maybe. But this is the granddaddy of them all in the U.S. and even the finalists that are eliminated make a round of appearances as the latest one eliminated on other national shows. There is also a national tour that the finalists also go on, thus ensuring at least another round of coverage for each finalist. Sportfan5000 (talk) 16:05, 8 March 2014 (UTC) [WP:BAN Unscintillating (talk) 00:01, 24 March 2014 (UTC)][reply]
Comment. Only one of the thirteen articles was tagged for this AfD discussion, I have added the tags to the other twelve. Sportfan5000 (talk) 16:15, 8 March 2014 (UTC) [WP:BAN Unscintillating (talk) 00:01, 24 March 2014 (UTC)][reply]
I have posted the season templates below as a comparison, it looks as if only 8 out of all the years does not have an article, although they still have redirects to the season they were in. My hunch is that even those could be turned into a good article if someone put the effort to it. Historically though, the vast majority have articles, sustained over time. Sportfan5000 (talk) 16:25, 8 March 2014 (UTC) [WP:BAN Unscintillating (talk) 00:01, 24 March 2014 (UTC)][reply]
Delete This is at best too soon, these people are not notable, at least not yet.John Pack Lambert (talk) 01:16, 13 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
A preponderance of sources, including television and news reports each week, differ from that assessment. Sportfan5000 (talk) 01:42, 13 March 2014 (UTC) [WP:BAN Unscintillating (talk) 00:01, 24 March 2014 (UTC)][reply]
Keep. This is a well-sourced article for someone that has had significant coverage. I think it would be worth inclusion. AndyGibsonSon (talk) 20:52, 15 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. I didn't realize that this was a discussion for all finalists. I still believe that they have received enough coverage to warrant inclusion on Wiki generally speaking, though I have not read all articles tagged here. AndyGibsonSon (talk) 20:48, 15 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
They are currently uneven but i have up kept MK Nobilette, which is a fair example, as she is not well known outside of this context, yet has enough to write a good article. I could easily double what we are currently reporting. I think most of the others have more information available than even MK does. Sportfan5000 (talk) 21:50, 15 March 2014 (UTC) [WP:BAN Unscintillating (talk) 00:01, 24 March 2014 (UTC)][reply]
Merge into the season article. Most of these people are not notable yet, and it is probably a WP:ONEEVENT for most. Taylor Trescott - my talk + my edits 18:17, 16 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
What's leading you to the opinion that they aren't notable? They all meet the general notability guidelines, as well as the criteria found in Wikipedia:Notability (music). As for WP:ONEEVENT, that says "If the event is highly significant, and the individual's role within it is a large one, a separate article is generally appropriate." I feel that this would apply to all of these people. If you aren't very familiar with American Idol, then I understand why you might not think that it's a significant event. But this is one of the most watched television shows in America and it receives a massive amount of coverage by the media. The number of sources that could be produced on any one of these people is pretty much innumerable. --Jpcase (talk) 20:00, 16 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Everyone's opinion on whether or not all of these contestants' role in this season is a "large one" or not is going to vary. Gloss • talk 20:14, 16 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Fair enough. I get that the size of an individual's role within an event is often going to be subjective. I'm curious though; what criteria would you use to determine whether a person's role within a competition is significant? You mentioned above that you would typically only consider someone who makes the top 2 or 3 as being significant, but would you extend that to every competition? What about something like the Olympics? Would an athlete need to have at least earned bronze at the Olympics to have played a significant role, or is it enough for them to have simply qualified for the competition? --Jpcase (talk) 21:05, 16 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The only other competition I can think of comparing it to would be Survivor. We're often finding the winners of individual seasons over there up at AfD over WP:BLP1E. So when I see the person coming in 13th place of a season of American Idol automatically being considered notable, it confuses me. Survivor is just as big as American Idol these days. It topped Idol in ratings this week and it's on it's 14th year running (longer than Idol, I believe). So when I see winners and runner-ups of seasons over on Survivor pages being considered for deletion but 13 contestants a season having articles on Idol pages.. I don't even know what to make of it.
In Survivor, generally the final four is considered a big milestone. In Idol, there isn't any specific number considered a huge milestone, so it would kind of have to be on a case-by-case basis. Sanjaya from years ago was notable though finishing in (5/6/7th?). But someone who finished in 3/4th of that season might not have anything else on their resume since.
From last season: Curtis, Burnell, Devin, Amber... all have articles but all are only notable for Idol's 12th season which they didn't have much of an impact on and they're all covered significantly in their season's article. Paul Jolley's article was redirected because of that... but somehow the rest remain.
We all have different viewpoints about this stuff, and it gets tricky. Gloss • talk 21:18, 16 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for your answer. I'm not very familiar with Survivor. However, to me, there's a key difference between something like Idol and many of the other reality competition shows out there. Nobody's going to become famous just for voluntarily living on an island and playing some games. Or take a show like The Biggest Loser - nobody's going to become famous just for losing a lot of weight. The people on shows like these are only famous because they're in a competition. As soon as the competition is over, these people pretty much lose any relevance that they had. However, a musician who finds a wide enough audience is going to become famous, whether they're competing for anything or not. If you were to show a video clip from Survivor or The Biggest Loser to someone who doesn't watch the show, they probably wouldn't care. However, if you were to show a video of a performance from American Idol to someone who doesn't watch that show, they could still appreciate it, since the appeal of music stands on its own. A lot of the people who go onto American Idol had already been pursuing music before, and most, if not all of them, continue to pursue music in some form after the show ends. A large number of them (maybe a majority, but I haven't checked) go on to release music professionally; some of their fans from the show will continue to follow them throughout their career, and even people who didn't know that they were on the show will discover and listen to their music. I would be very surprised if fans of Survivor or The Biggest Loser follow the contestants (or even the winners) from those shows long after the end of each season.
The contestants that you named haven't done anything yet, because it usually takes a long time for anything to happen in the music industry. It would be better to look at the contestants from two or three seasons ago. I know that at least ten of the top 12/13 from seasons 9, 10, and 11 have gone on to release either an album or a single. As for the contestants who go on the show and are never heard from again, personally, I feel that their performances on the show still carry some significance even years later. I see these people as musicians first and foremost, not just reality show contestants. The last criteria listed on Wikipedia:Notability (music) is "Has been a featured subject of a substantial broadcast segment across a national radio or TV network." That's the kind of exposure that thousands of struggling musicians across America would kill to have.
Since I'm unfamiliar with Survivor, I don't know what makes the top 4 on that show particularly significant, but I feel that American Idol actually does have a big milestone number - it's the top 13 (or top 12 or top 10 depending on the season). At that point, they're officially recognized as "finalists". If they only make it to the top 24 (or top 30 or whatever), then they're "semi-finalists". I don't know if Survivor uses the term "finalist" for any of its contestants, but this is how American Idol refers to the top 13, and to me, it's a pretty good indication that these are the people who have reached the "big milestone" point of the competition.
Having said all of this, I still feel like everything comes back to the general notability guidelines. Upon looking closer at WP:BLP1E, I even noticed that it gives us an objective measure by which to determine whether a individual's role within an event is significant or not - The significance of an event or individual is indicated by how persistent the coverage is in reliable sources. So if the coverage is there, then the article should probably exist, whether we're dealing with a contestant on American Idol or Survivor or any other reality show. --Jpcase (talk) 23:15, 16 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
A lot of what you said further explains how different people watching different shows and having different opinions makes this hard. I'll speak for Survivor because I don't know much about The Biggest Loser, but yes.. the show follows up on past players at reunion shows of future seasons and when they're asked to play the game again.
My problem is just that you're saying it may take years (or however long) for them to go on to release a single or an album... but their articles should be created if and when that happens. Not held onto "just incase" they make it big after the show. Because for now, they're just as in violation of WP:BLP1E as any other reality TV contestant that doesn't win. Gloss • talk 23:26, 16 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I didn't realize that the Survivor contestants would return to the show during later seasons. That makes me feel even more strongly that they deserve their own articles, as long as coverage can be found. You say that they and the American Idol contestants are in violation of WP:BLP1E, but I'm not sure how they are. As I pointed out, the policy states that an individual's significance within an event should be determined by the amount of coverage they've received in reliable sources. I don't know what kind of coverage Survivor contestants receive, but I don't think that I have to reiterate how much coverage Idol contestants receive. I'm curious how those Survivor-AfD discussions went... --Jpcase (talk) 00:05, 17 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Keep as no consensus on this debate, without prejudice to a post-completion of the season renomination (wait a few weeks after season ends, let's see how his coverage shakes out). Easy peasy.--Milowent • hasspoken 18:30, 18 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
If a few weeks pass after the end of the season and there's little new coverage, then on what grounds would you support a renomination for AfD? I feel that I've shown how all of these articles meet the general notability guidelines and music notability guidelines, and how they aren't in violation of WP:BLP1E. However, I'm actually open to reconsidering my viewpoint, if you or Gloss feel that I've misinterpreted any of these policies or know of another policy that these articles might violate. --Jpcase (talk) 20:55, 18 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
We have a million years to write this encyclopedia, sometimes it easier to make decisions after an event is over.--Milowent • hasspoken 00:18, 19 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
FWIW, every one of these articles can easily be challenged now, and sources will attest that they meet GNG. Personally I would like to see them develop on their own rather than in a rush, but i have no doubt each of them has received so much coverage that their inclusion is inevitable. MK Nobilette is the only one that is referenced from top to bottom, but all of them can get similar treatment. Sportfan5000 (talk) 00:31, 19 March 2014 (UTC) [WP:BAN Unscintillating (talk) 00:01, 24 March 2014 (UTC)][reply]
Keep per Sportfan5000's vote. The media attention from American Idol all but guarantees meeting notability standards, at least for now. Dralwik|Have a Chat 17:16, 19 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.