The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. I don't believe a third relist would be helpful. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 18:56, 13 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Bethany Christian Schools[edit]

Bethany Christian Schools (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)

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This school fails WP:NORG and WP:GNG. A Christian school that appears to have the typical run-of-the-mill school coverage (i.e. local newspapers writing about sports and graduation). I don't see how this subject meets our guidelines for notability. Thank you for assuming good faith. Missvain (talk) 20:55, 20 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Schools, Christianity, and Indiana. Missvain (talk) 20:55, 20 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete - not notable. Has trivial non-independent local coverage and a self-published book, but nothing of substance. Thparkth (talk) 21:23, 20 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep Notable non-trivial coverage from Goshen News (On current construction, mission, growth) and WYFI (school walk-out). Additional material might (I caution on this source) be gleaned from this document. Coverage is primarily local, with additional coverage of sports from outlets like the Chicago Tribune or covering the murder of one of their students in some statewide papers. ~ Pbritti (talk) 22:59, 20 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

In my opinion the coverage of the school falls foul of WP:AUD ... "attention solely from local media ... is not an indication of notability." Furthermore two of your three Goshen News examples appear to be either reprinted press releases or stories entirely based on press releases, which means they are not independent and can't establish notability (WP:PRSOURCE). Coverage of a student's murder does not lend notability to the school. Coverage of high school sports is usually not notable even in its own right (WP:YOUNGATH) so can't lend notability to the school either. The walkout story mentions the school only in passing. The PDF you linked to is... difficult to categorize! But it certainly isn't independent or published in a reliable source. So the story about the new gym is the strongest source in your list, and it just isn't very strong at all.Thparkth (talk) 23:20, 20 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Thparkth: Agree on the PDF; linked it solely because I was optimistic another editor might know how to parlay that into finding additional material. Also agree on the coverage of the murder and non-local sports coverage; only mentioned just for WP:BEFORE purposes. I disagree on the AUD front at least tepidly, though, because I'm suspecting I missed something. However, if a few days pass and we don't hear anything new come out on sourcing outside Goshen, I'll swing over to weak dlt so we can close this on the first listing; if nothing comes in a week, it won't in three. ~ Pbritti (talk) 23:32, 20 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment - The notability requirement for public schools and universities is WP:ORG or WP:GNG, but non-profit educational institutions are not required to satisfy WP:ORG (including WP:AUD): The scope of this guideline covers all groups of people organized together for a purpose with the exception of non-profit educational institutions, religions or sects, and sports teams. (Italics mine.) Here's the WP:GNG description of the notability requirement for significant coverage: Significant coverage is more than a trivial mention, but it does not need to be the main topic of the source material.

— Grand'mere Eugene (talk) 22:12, 21 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep. In the spirit of WP:HEY, I've added sources from newspapers.com and the Goshen News pieces above, enough to easily pas GNG. — Grand'mere Eugene (talk) 22:28, 21 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep Passes WP:GNG, it's definitely a notable school --Bigneeerman (talk) 17:13, 22 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete - there are no independent sources, but boy oh boy, the subject of this article sure does have someone that knows how you crank out press releases. I removed the entire "Co-curricular activities" as an example of that. Schools doing things most schools do doesn't make them notable even if they employ someone to make sure the newspapers know about it. Possibly high achievement in things all schools do might lead some to presume some notability might arise from that, but that's not been shown. Having fundraisers doesn't speak to a private institutions notability, even if the paper published the press release. Having the POTUS speak at it would. I've given the entire article a rewrite away from PR, but that still seems to be its prime purpose. 174.212.227.245 (talk) 19:58, 22 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete I see only trivial and/or run-off-the-mill sources. No in-depth sources. The Banner talk 17:01, 24 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  Exactly. I'm a Hoosier and this is all super hyper local coverage, the usual "stuff" that schools get coverage for, and that award is nothing of major notoriety in the state or Midwest. It's not like getting a high level LEED certification award or something. Seriously trivial. I appreciate the efforts of those trying to pull a WP:HEY but nothing here convinces me that this school meets general notability guidelines outside of local coverage. Missvain (talk) 16:15, 26 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • I too appreciate the effort to save this article, but IMO, the bit on the 2018 walkout is unencyclopedic. One local source. No enduring coverage, nothing changed. The fact that many schools nationwide participated in it (and nothing changed) makes it less encyclopedic, not more. It may be different elsewhere, but walkouts are not uncommon in Indiana High schools. I participated in one, 50 years ago, and I'll bet many students have since. If you peruse the history of this article you'll see that back when schools did have some amount of presumed notability, there were many OWN issues here. Matter of fact, it was common across Indiana schools. I do believe this article is, was and always has been nothing more than a PR vehicle for a pretty small school. It is an early Mennonite secondary school (possibly the first), but until an independent publisher puts out a history of Mennonite education, that's both speculation and irrelevant. 174.212.229.15 (talk) 21:16, 26 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

    100% on what you just shared here and I'm totally having flashbacks to the Indiana school walkouts I participated in 25 years ago. Missvain (talk) 23:47, 26 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment: My grandmother was from Michigantown, in Clinton County, Indiana, and though I never heard her swear, when she was cross or surprised, she would say under her breath, "Land o' Goshen!" in lieu of swearing. I'd just make two points about the sourcing in this article: First, the WP:AUD (part of WP:ORG) that specifies at least regional coverage for notability is not a requirement for public or non-profit schools. Schools need to meet either WP:GNG or WP:ORG, or both (the "both" part applies to for-profit schools and universities). Even so, my second point: I believe the South Bend Tribune, a Gannett newspaper, actually does qualify as a regional source, as out WP article points out, "It is distributed in South Bend, Mishawaka, north central Indiana and southwestern Michigan... It is the third largest daily broadsheet newspaper in the State of Indiana by circulation." Regardless of that second point, I still think this article passes GNG. — Grand'mere Eugene (talk) 00:43, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  The question isn't the publication, it's the author. None of the articles published in the SBT were written by a reporter at the SBT. They were written off press releases written by an employee of the school, dropped off, faxed or telephoned to the paper and were written up by a copy editor at the paper. They lack independance. There's no journalism whatsoever. GNG requires INDEPENDENT journalism, with a reporter actually writing a detailed newspaper article himself about the subject of the article. Wikipedia articles are not created to provide their subject a means to communicate. BTW, "Land o' Goshen" was a common misdwestern expletive from the circa 1900. It refers to the biblical place, not the city in Indiana named after it.174.212.229.15 (talk) 18:26, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  Your take on the journalism of the South Bend Tribune is interesting, but inaccurate. You removed SBT sources that do have bylines, 1 and 2, though had you assumed good faith and discussed the deletions on the article talk page, I would have supplied links to the rest of the article 3 and 4 for which #2 was a graphic showing comparative results, including those from Bethany Christian. Sometimes reporters do call school officials, verifying various facts, and we need to be cautious using their printed versions tagged "according to school officials", but it's a mistake to reject all the school-related articles writing them off as "releases written by an employee of the school". I am very sorry you didn't appreciate my attempt at comedy over the coincidence of the schools' location in Goshen and my Grandmother's expression... It seems like you need a good laugh. — Grand'mere Eugene (talk) 22:26, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  (1) is not about the school at all, but about a competition, with a brief mention of some competitors from the school (along with other schools). (2) is only a trivial mention in a data table along with many other schools. (3) and (4), which are two parts of the same story, do not mention the school at all. There isn't an ounce of substantial independent coverage of the school itself. Thparkth (talk) 16:33, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 22:18, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment - My apologies, Thparkth, for not making clear I mentioned the sources above solely to question the assertion, "None of the articles published in the SBT were written by a reporter at the SBT." I've a added more sources today, and would point to these WP:THREE candidates:

1. Lepak, Evan (August 21, 2023). "Prep Soccer: Bethany Christian introduces facility renovations". Goshen News. Retrieved 2022-09-25.
2. Kline, John (February 17, 2010). "Bethany staff considering anthem issue". Goshen News. Retrieved 2022-09-30.
3. "Indiana Department of Education congratulates winners of the U.S. Department of Education's Green Ribbon Schools Award". States News Service. May 5, 2017 – via Gale Academic OneFile, EBSCO. The Indiana Department of Education today congratulated the Indiana recipients of the U.S. Department of Education's Green Ribbon Schools Award. The awarded schools included Burris Laboratory School of Muncie and Bethany Christian Schools in Goshen...The award recognizes winners who excel in the areas of reducing environmental impact and costs, improving the health and wellness of schools, students, and staff, and providing an environmental education, incorporating Science, Technology, Engineering, and Math (STEM), civic skills, and green career pathways. Combined progress in all three areas serves as the basis for recognition.

— Grand'mere Eugene (talk 00:50, September 30, 2022‎

• Comment -- Yes it is a run of the mill school, but we have habitually allowed articles on secondary schools, of which this is one. Unless there is indication that the content is untrue or there are BLP issues, lack of sourcing is not a ground for deletion. Peterkingiron (talk) 14:01, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep- From this [1] piece of article from April 1996 to This [2], This [3] and This [4] mention in Government Directory it shows the fact that the School is notable enough to be kept. Surya^{beej   ⋠talk⋡} 09:56, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete. The sources provided above are all routine local news coverage. Nothing here which passes WP:ORGCRIT, which schools are required to pass per WP:SCHOOLOUTCOMES.4meter4 (talk) 02:12, 5 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  Schools are not required to meet ORGCRIT, which is part of WP:NORG unless they are for-profit orgnizations. Instead, they may meet the alternative, WP:GNG, with the requirement for significant coverage:

  Significant coverage addresses the topic directly and in detail, so that no original research is needed to extract the content. Significant coverage is more than a trivial mention, but it does not need to be the main topic of the source material.

  — Grand'mere Eugene (talk) 20:24, 7 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 02:53, 5 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete per WP:SCHOOLOUTCOMES. Haueirlan (talk) 19:32, 7 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep as has reliable sources coverage such as The Goshen News which is a regional publication. As this is a non-profit school WP:AUD does not apply, imv Atlantic306 (talk) 05:43, 8 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete I've looked through the history of the article and I just don't see enough significant and independent coverage to be able to write an article that doesn't sound like a resume of the school's recent achievements. In particular, writing such as "In September 2022 a 42 years old Driver killed as 65-year-old Goshen Man named as Peter Shetler who was the staff of Bethany Christian Schools, When the drivers view was blocked by the sun's glare" is poor. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 10:16, 13 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.