The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Please defer merge related discussion to article talk. Can't sleep, clown will eat me 07:07, 1 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Bobby Franks[edit]

Bobby Franks (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)

Wikipedia is not a memorial. This 14 year old murder victim is known only for being killed in 1924 and fails to satisfy WP:BIO. The crime is notable and is already fully covered at the article about the infamous thrill killers Leopold and Loeb who were defended by Clarence Darrow in a famous trial. A merge or redirect could also be appropriate. Edison 19:24, 27 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Merge to L&L per nom.--SarekOfVulcan 19:53, 27 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Merge and Redirect to Leopold and Loeb. Likely search term for someone interested in the case, no notability other than as the (unfortunate) victim in the case, all information can be incorporated into the article on the killers. Carom 21:54, 27 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Merge and redirect to L&L. Not notable enough for own article. Realkyhick 00:40, 28 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep - While Wikipedia is not a memorial, Bobby Franks became a household name in the 1920s. As such, he is indeed notable enough for an entry page here. I also do not see how Franks fails WP:BIO. Regardless of how he became notable, he surely is notable. ExRat 01:26, 28 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep as an exception--I think both he and the killers are separately notable in this instance.DGG (talk) 01:46, 28 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep this one, since he's, basically, one of the most famous murder victims of all time. I recognized the name instantly. Zagalejo 04:35, 28 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment The "Lindbergh Baby" kidnapping murder was more notable than the Leopold and Loeb thrill killing of Bobby Franks, but we have only an article on the Lindbergh kidnapping and not a memorial article about 1 year old Charles Augustus Lindbergh, Junior. Nor is there a memorial article about the wife murdered by Hawley Harvey Crippen in another famous murder of the early 2oth century. Had the two killers managed to pick up one of their other potential victims that they considered that day, Bobby Franks would not have gained any notoreity as their victim. We normally have an article about the crime, and not the victim, unless he was otherwise notable. The article is sourced only by someone's website, and has no sources so far satisfying WP:A. The article only has 1 or 2 sentences not presently in the target article about Leopold and Loeb, which fully describes the crime and the trial, and would be a good place to merge the few additional words about the victim in this article. He only gets passing reference in articles about the killers or the trial, which does not establish notability per WP:N. Arguments such as "I have heard of him" and "I think he is notable" really do nothing to tip the balance toward keeping the article, since this is not a vote. Edison 05:29, 28 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Well, I know that there are some biographical details about Franks that are not included in the article. Stuff like this. That's not a great counter-argument, but I don't think this is an issue for AFD anyway. There's no conceivable reason to delete the page outright. At the very least, it'll be turned into a redirect. People can just hash out the details on the talk pages. Zagalejo 06:10, 28 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep At least as notable as Ronald Goldman. Edward321 02:44, 29 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment The observation that other probably deletion-worth articles exist is not a valid argument for keeping the one under discussion. Edison 20:03, 29 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Redirect to Loeb and Leopold. I'm not impressed with the article at all, which is not about the victim, despite its well-meaning title. I'm of the opinion that if a criminal rates an article, then his victims should be written up as well, although generally as part of the article on the crime. Obviously, we couldn't have individual articles about victims of a serial killer, save for those where the victim became as prominent as the killer (as with Ron Goldman or Sharon Tate). In this case, the author tells us nothing about the 14 year old Chicago boy who happened to live across the street from a couple of assholes. Mandsford 23:41, 29 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - You suggest that articles of victims should be written when the victims become as prominent as their killers - Bobby Franks was nearly a household name in the 1920s in the USA, possibly as much so as Ronald Goldman. I would even dare say that many people still recognize the name. That alone makes him notable. I do however agree that that article needs major work, but I certainly think he merits his own inclusion on Wikipedia. I don't think a redirect is what is necessary; just a major overhaul with more information on Franks. Bobby Franks was and is a notable individual. ExRat 23:40, 30 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep Wikipedia doesn't have to be a memorial to have articles about notable murder victims. This person is a well-known part of Chicago history and the article needs improvement and cleanup, not deletion. A Merge would be acceptable. The Parsnip! 04:22, 31 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.