The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. Luna Santin 03:40, 2 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Donald M. Kendrick[edit]

A choir teacher, no sources, created in April. I tagged this with {notability} because it lacks sources, WP:V, and notability. Then the creator of the article removed my tag and left a rude message on my talk. A choir teacher fails WP:BIO, that's assuming that this article is accurate even though it lacks sources. Arbusto 02:12, 23 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Also delete: Donald M. Kendrick/Temp. --Arbusto 01:08, 2 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete per nom. MER-C 02:47, 23 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
• Weak keep. Asserts notability, but does not provide citations. Subject is more than a mere "choir teacher," but this article must provide evidence of the claims of international renown.Johnbrownsbody 03:00, 23 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete. Completely lacks sources. Possible vanity. Resolute 04:49, 23 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete per nom Nigel ^(Talk) 12:38, 23 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep Asserts notability in article. Should come back to AfD if no citations ready. JASpencer 16:41, 23 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment It appears that is exactly why this article is at AfD now. the creator was given plenty of time to cite sources and failed to. Resolute 16:51, 23 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment Remove the uncited text before bringing in an AFD. JASpencer 19:19, 23 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• I didn't do that because it'd look like bad faith if the nominator removed the reasons for keeping the article. Arbusto 01:04, 25 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• Strong keep - appears to be notable, simply lacking references. (I have added some). I can see nothing on either the main or talk pages about lack of referencing or lack of notability until tagged on 22 September. Just because an editor removed the tag, doesn't justify AfD. We need more articles on subjects like this, not less. -- Beardo 19:43, 23 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The source you added was to confirm he started and directed a children's choir. How does that meet WP:BIO or WP:MUSIC? Arbusto 20:03, 23 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I actually added five sources. I suggest that you spend more time trying to improve articles rather than just AfDing them. The CSUS bio could be used as a reference for much of the bio - but we need better references. It seems he was conductor on a recording of the Boston Philharmonic included in their 20th Anniversary Box set, but I am not sure a link to the Amazon listing for that is enough. -- Beardo 21:34, 23 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

You added links that don't assert anything to pass WP:BIO and WP:MUSIC. Arbusto 02:02, 24 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

How about "Has gone on an international concert tour, or a national concert tour in at least one large or medium-sized country"; does the Canadian Encyclopedia count as reputable media ? -- Beardo 05:16, 24 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Great, do you have a source for a tour? I see claims that he played 5 European cities. Arbusto 21:38, 24 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete I count 17 unique hits outside Wikipedia. I ahve never heard of him, and I am a listener and occasional performer of classical and church music. I don't see any evidence that this guy reaches the level of notability of Stephen Darlington or Barry Rose, to name two I know personally. Proper sources, please? Guy 22:30, 23 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Not sure which 17 you mean, Guy - but there seemed a lot more than that to me. (Not all references include the M.) -- Beardo 05:16, 24 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

There is more than one "Donald Kendrick". Narrow your searching to music or you'll get this Donald Kendrick [1] professor of psychology in Tennessee. Arbusto 21:38, 24 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep. Well-documented article shows that Kendrick has achieved international exposure conducting choirs on world tours and in leading concert halls such as Carnegie Hall [2]. Characterizing him as just a "choir teacher" is misleading and insulting. --JJay 14:50, 24 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

"Well-documented"? Which sources and how does he pass WP:BIO or WP:MUSIC. The article asserts he played Carnegie Hall once, however, your link does not make that claim. It claims he is at CSUS and "director of music at Sacramento's Sacred Heart Church and co-founder and previous artistic director of the Sacramento Children's Chorus." He fails WP:MUSIC. Arbusto 17:56, 24 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• This was already answered above: How about "Has gone on an international concert tour, or a national concert tour in at least one large or medium-sized country". Not to mention the amazon albums, major concert halls, etc. Not bad for a "choir teacher" --JJay 19:01, 24 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Great, do you have a source that one of the albums he was part of sold 5,000 copies-- if so that meets WP:MUSIC and the article will be saved. Once again the claim that he played Cargnie Hall not only isnt cited, but is moot if WP:MUSIC isn't met. I agree with what another user said about your voting in AfDs.[3] Arbusto 21:33, 24 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Please review WP:Music at your earliest convenience. Please review the article for the Carnegie Hall link - or are you contesting the NY Times as a valid source?. Otherwise, while I wasn't aware that Mr. Kendrick was a Norwegian ski jumper, I do value your opinion of my AfD voting at the same level as your AfD nominations. --JJay 21:57, 24 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Don't blame me for your miscite on this afd page. So your basing his notability on an article from 11 years ago, which said "the ensemble" was hired "because it was inexpensive, not because it was distinguished." And the performance concluded "only the most overtly dramatic sections had any real drive. "[4] The NY Times even said his group WAS NOT DISTINGUISHED! Do you have a NY Times article from the last ten years to prove otherwise? Arbusto 22:28, 24 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The one Times review of the Carnegie Hall performance is largely sufficient for me. Furthermore, I didn't have to search very hard for the link since despite your denials it was a source in the article. And while your selective quoting of the review is interesting, the Times does go on to say that "The chorus -- a combination of the Wayne State College Choir, the Donald Kendrick Chorale and the Long Island Masterworks Chorus -- produced a reliably robust, polished sound". --JJay 23:21, 24 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Great so he played one time with a bunch of other performers and sounded good with Wayne college, and Long Island performers. The issue is notablity and the source said "the ensemble" was hired "because it was inexpensive, not because it was distinguished." That is an article from 11 years ago. Anything current to prove notablity? Arbusto 00:53, 25 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

If you are sincerely interested in Mr. Kendrick's career, please read the article and follow the links. You will see that this "choir teacher" is far more accomplished than you are willing to acknowledge and has been actively touring. In the meantime, by repeatedly selectively misquoting a bolded passage from the Times - that was actually attributed to a musicians union protesting the use of foreign performers - you are seriously demeaning your argument. --JJay 02:21, 25 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

LOL. Follow;

1) The article states "Mr. Kendrick debuted in Carnegie Hall with the Verdi Requiem in 1995" with a NY Times article linked.

2) The NY Yimes article says "Local 802 of the American Federation of Musicians challenged the orchestra members' visas, contending that Mr. Tiboris hired the ensemble because it was inexpensive, not because it was distinguished."

3) Then the article continues: "The performance of the Verdi Requiem on Saturday evening showed that the union may have a point. Although the orchestra's strings produced a unified, warm sound, its winds were lackluster, and its brass players muddled their big moment at the start of the Tuba mirum. The performance, conducted by Donald Kendrick, was surprisingly leisurely; only the most overtly dramatic sections had any real drive."

4) Got any sources from the last ten years to dispute this "not distinguished" claim? Arbusto 04:46, 25 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• weak keep even the most distniguished musician can get the odd bad review. Bio also asserts performances on CBC, it would be nice to see direct proof of this, rather than via the university biog as this would then allow assesment on the following WP:MUSIC grounds:
  • Has been placed in rotation nationally by any major radio network.
  • Has been the subject of a half hour or longer broadcast on a national radio network.

JzG, I could also name a number of current and former English Cathedral Directors of Music (see the article I wrote on Stanley Vann for a start), but would struggle to do the same for cathedrals outside England I don't think that necessarily means that they are non-notable. David Underdown 08:02, 25 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete per nom.--Peta 02:06, 27 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete per others above. I'm not sold on the case that has been made for this subject's inclusion. PJM 02:12, 27 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep per JJay. --badlydrawnjeff talk 10:59, 27 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete, there simply isn't enough here to meet WP:BIO or WP:MUSIC.--Isotope23 15:15, 27 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep per JJay Torinir _{( Ding my phone My support calls E-Support Options )} 17:13, 27 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
• Strong keep Meets the notability criteria suggested at WP:MUSIC on several counts, such as radio network features and international tours. He has performed at Carnegie Hall at least twice. Even one hit wonders survive AfD, so if we delete this we would reinforce a systemic bias in favour of popular culture. --Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (Talk) 17:33, 27 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete: Alas. Carnegie Hall is available for all to rent. There's a New York company that specializes in bringing out-of-town choirs to NY to sing there - for a fee. It's essentially a vanity tour. (I've paid my money and done the same thing, and so have performed in CH.) The booker of these tours is mentioned in comments above. I don't think notability has been established. Bpmullins 18:28, 27 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Excellent point. PJM 19:11, 27 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Do these vanity concerts regularly get reviewed in NYT ? -- Beardo 12:36, 28 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Ours was, but I can't speak to the general case. Here is the current lineup for these Carnegie concerts. There are notable names as conductor (Rutter, for one) but the character of the choirs singing shows what the series is about, IMO. When we went, our director conducted because we'd brought along enough singers. -- Bpmullins 15:54, 28 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Additional consideration: International tours is, like the Carnegie gigs, an overstatement. I've been on these tours as well; you pay for your tour (usually it's 2 weeks or so on a summer vacation) and sing several concerts in churches in various cities. Tours like this are a staple of the volunteer choral singer's life - most of us have been on one or more of these. The more I read the more convinced I am that the subject is NN, even though I'd probably love to sing for him. -- Bpmullins 19:21, 28 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete unconvincing notability.--Húsönd 19:03, 27 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete There are sources, but they do not establish the subject as meeting WP:BIO or WP:MUSIC, unless we're seriously considering every person who has traveled with a choir on trips around the states as going on a major trip, in which case I'll start the bio on my middle school choir teacher soon. GassyGuy 05:27, 28 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Does your choir teacher takes choral tours to Eastern Europe and China, and release records sold through Amazon from the tours ? -- Beardo 12:35, 28 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

No, but that's also not part of the guideline being cited as reason to keep. The keep votes say to keep because of the concert guideline of WP:MUSIC, and I made my reply to that. This issue is tangential at best and we can address it when that article goes to AfD. Also, it would be best not to refer to her as my choir teacher, as I haven't been in a choir for many a year.

• Comment I'm confused. This is AfD. This is it. The article will be deleted today if the consensus is Delete.

• I'm well aware of what this is. I was referring to the hypothetical AfD of my hypothetical article of my real former choir teacher. GassyGuy 19:01, 29 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• Minor pop bands survive AfD by WP:MUSIC; there should be more conductors on WP.

• It's a fine ideal to hold, but the conductors still have to fall within some sort of policy. GassyGuy 19:01, 29 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• WP:MUSIC for a musician says one tour of a medium-sized country, reported in notable and verifiable sources, or one half-hour network radio broadcast. The sources say he has several of each of these. If you disagree with WP:MUSIC, that is fine, but if you do cite the guideline, please try to do so correctly. --Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (Talk) 13:11, 29 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• I believe I made that quite clear within my response when I introduced the segment being cited in my attempt to show why what holds true for a band or musician might not necessarily be the best arrangement for a conductor. Please don't be patronizing. GassyGuy 19:01, 29 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete. For me, he fails the academics test. Batmanand | Talk 10:17, 28 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete, per nom. Though in fairness I should note the creator has not left any messages on my talk page. Cedars 05:34, 1 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.