The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Merge to A Piece of the Action (Star Trek). Walton^One 14:36, 20 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Fizzbin[edit]

Make-believe game used as a plot device in a single episode of Star Trek, mentioned in passing a couple of times later. But, no real-world notability. Additionally, it has been tagged for cleanup and lack of reliable sources since April (and has lacked sources long before then). Redirected to the episode in which it appears, but redirect was reverted by another editor; bringing it to AfD to reach consensus. --EEMeltonIV 04:40, 12 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Delete or redirect. Concur with nom that it's not notable on its own. Not sure AfD is the place for this type of debate though. DMacks 04:49, 12 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- If there's a more appropriate venue to resolve these bits, then by all means I'm game. I've tried talk-page discussions in the past, but these tends to be such low-traffic and -interest pages that it devolves into a noisy back-and-forth. My one stab at RfC was pretty slow -- in fact, I don't remember whether there was ever a response. --EEMeltonIV 04:55, 12 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  - Okay then, wasn't sure what else was tried. DMacks 05:00, 12 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Merge and redirect a short summary of the game. I have actually seen this played at a con (sad, I know) so it has fandom currency, but that's really it. --Dhartung 05:25, 12 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Merge a short summary and redirect to the episode article. More noted within the fandom than most Star Trek trivia, but not attributed in the article, and a Google search shows (in the first two or three pages, just a quick check) only fansites and blogs. I wouldn't give "academic paper" status to an underclassman's calculation of the probability of being dealt a certain hand. Barno 20:22, 12 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

After reading User:Chimene's post below, I tried this Google search on "conditional modifier"+game. It looks like the concept and wording are applied in some cases on game-chat sites and blogs, but I don't know if there are attributable sources enough for a Conditional modifier games or Conditional modifier (games) (to disambiguate from the grammatical meaning) article. If enough sourcing is found for such an article, parts of Fizzbin should be merged into it, but not every rule heard in the script. If that merge is made, I think the Fizzbin title should still redirect to the Trek-episode article rather than to the conditional-modifier article. Barno 20:36, 13 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Merge and redirect as much info as possible to the episode article. I'm shocked and appalled that I can't find any scholarly references for it... No way for me to justify a keep vote, then; otoh I used the article for reference purposes myself a few weeks ago so would hate to see it entirely deleted. Question: Memory Alpha would be a good place for the content, but they use a Creative Commons license rather than GFDL and I don't know how the two differ - would it be permissable to copy the Wikipedia content to Memory Alpha? --Zeborah 02:29, 13 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
This, while not provably a copyvio, appears to be a (minor) expansion of an article published in a syndicated Star Trek magazine around 1977, which was admitted to be at best fanon and at worst total OR. Given that the reference in the episode makes it clear that it is a fictive (that fizzbin, as such, does not exist in the Trek (or real) universe), it is clearly inapparopriate for Wiki~. At best, it might merit a one-line mention in a theoretical article Funny words used on Star trek; the present article ought to be deleted. -- SockpuppetSamuelson 10:00, 13 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Fizzbin (1968) may be the first example of a "conditional modifier" card game -- one in which the allowable play may be changed by external factors (see the Dragon Poker article for a good definition of "conditional modifier"). Have not YET been able to find anything else on-line on the origin of "modifier card game". Fizzbin is older than Dungeons and Dragons (rules first published in 1974); Asprin's Dragon Poker and Pratchett's Cripple Mr. Onion may be spoofs of the Fizzbin concept. Fizzbin is certainly older than Mornington Crescent. Calvin and Hobbes "calvinball" game is an example of a non-card game which is based entirely on the "conditional modifier" concept. IF Fizzbin is the source of this concept, it represents the genesis of a whole new class of games. This seems sufficient to retain the article as is, without merging or redirecting. Although we agree it would benefit from editing to include the influences we think exist. Perhaps what is really needed is an article on "Conditional modifier games"! (What brought me to this discussion was an allusion to the game in a political blog; it's part of the culture. I have so far found the term used as an adjective relative to religious, programming, mathematical and astrophysical discussions online -- and I'm obsessing about still looking.) --Chimene 21:26, 13 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Delete or Merge - With "A Piece of the Action" - This isn't a real card game. Whatever "official rules" are out there have been made up by Captain Kirk in the episode and expanded upon by fans. Cyberia23 21:51, 14 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - Fizzbin was used by Kirk as a distraction. the details of the game as described by Kirk is essentially trivia, and merging to the episode article would bloat it with trivial detail. I'll note that a Star Trek magazine published some rules for Fizzbin circa 1976 as I recall playing it in highschool with friends. -- Whpq 16:51, 17 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Merge - but no problem recreating with better references. The Los Angeles Times wrote on August 21, 2006, " For "Star Trek" illiterati, Fizzbin is a mythical card game created by Capt. Kirk, with rules so arcane and ever-changing that it befuddles unfriendly aliens on Sigma Iotia II. (It's such a classic TV moment that it has its own Wikipedia entry.)" So much for that. I would suggest rewriting the article to include Fizzbin the band and using the following information for the new article:

Google books
Los Angeles Times (August 21, 2006) They're playing Fizzbin with the solar system - The plutocracy deliberates. Section: California Metro' Page 10.
Kroll, John J. (June 16, 1997) Cleveland Plain Dealer Nerves of steel needed to play. Section: Personal Finance; Page 1D
Gettelman, Parry. (May 22, 1998) Orlando Sentinel Time's right for Fizzbin. Section: Calendar; Page 8
Anderson, Jamie J. (May 28, 1999) Orlando Sentinel Fizzbin. Section:Calendar; page 12.
Google news

-- Jreferee ^(Talk) 07:14, 18 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Merge appears to be the best choice here. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 14:35, 18 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.