This page is an archive of the proposed deletion of the article below. Further comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or on a Votes for Undeletion nomination). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was delete. Dunc|☺ 14:43, 10 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Gil_Student[edit]

because it is a Vanity Page Eliezer 4 July 2005 00:36 (UTC)

A page for Slifkin too[edit]

Above, JFW wrote that "even Slifkin probably shoudn't have a page." Why not? This controversy is shaking the Orthodox world, and may even reinforce both a sociological split and have huge theological repercussions for the entire idea of rabbinic authority in Orthodoxy. It is of very serious historical interest. Just because something happens over the web and on blogs doesn't mean it isn't "real". This is real.

The publisher of books that were banned in the midst of a world-wide controversy is certainly noteworthy. Dovi 07:29, July 10, 2005 (UTC)

While the person who put this article up for VfD is indeed member of Chabad, it must nevertheless be judged on its own merits, regardless of the motivations of the nominator. Jayjg (talk) 08:07, 10 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Dovi, there is something called vanity and non-notable, this exists in this situation to try to argue against it by saying that it is because of his stance on chabad is avoiding the issue and an attempt to change the subject. This has nothing to dow ith anything that Student has said or done in the past. Writing a book that is published by a vanity press isn't notable and neither is running a small blog. Even printing a controversial book in his own printing press doesn't make someone notable. --Eliezer 08:16, 10 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The book is not just "controversial." It is at the center of a world-wide controversy. A Cherem of the type that happened here is not unusual at all, by the way. What is different is that this cherem was followed by an internet rebellion, one that included the active participation of rabbis and scholars from around the world! This has never happened before, it is of extreme historical interest, and yes, Eliezer, it is of extraordinary importance.

Of course, Jayjg, I agree that the case should be decided on its own merits. But the fact that that has not happened on this page is a cause for concern. Wikipedia has the stats on every mediocre athlete in the country, and they are not deleted as "vanity" pages.

Eliezer, I would like to point out to you that I am not a big fan of Gil Student, and in fact his extreme views on Chabad are part of what I oppose. But there is no denying that he has played an important role in extremely important events recently. Dovi 08:29, July 10, 2005 (UTC)

What is a vanity page?[edit]

This page is listed for deletion as a vanity page. However, it meets none of the requirements for a vanity page:

An article should not be dismissed as "vanity" simply because the subject is not famous. There is presently no consensus about what degree of recognition is required for a page to be included in Wikipedia (although consensus exists regarding particular kinds of article, for instance see WP:MUSIC). Lack of fame is not the same as vanity.
Furthermore, an article is not "vanity" simply because it was written by its subject. Articles about existing books, movies, games, and businesses are not "vanity" so long as the content is kept to salient material and not overtly promotional.

The article as it stands is salient and not promotional. Even if Gil Student wrote the page (which he apparently did not) it would not be a candidate for deletion.

In fact - and this is cute! - even if Gil S. himself thinks he is not noteworthy enough for a page (as Jayjg wrote above), that is not reason for deletion :-)!

Since there are no "vanity page" grounds for removal in terms of policy, I move that we dismiss this whole motion. It is not even worthy of a vote. Dovi 08:53, July 10, 2005 (UTC)

Dovi, this isn't how wikipedia works, you get a chance to vote which you have, and so does everyone else. Apparently based on the votes placed until now nearly all votes that are allowed to be counted say that it's either vanity or not notable. --Eliezer 09:38, 10 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

It could be that some people really weren't fully aware of the events going on that Student was involved in, or of why they are so important. I dare say that no one would consider deleting information about actors in a controversy of similar importance regarding another religious or policial issue. The article as it currently stands is quite clearly not "vanity" and is quite notable. If fact, more articles should be added on the topic, including Nosson Slifkin and cleaning of Jewish creationism (though this controversy goes well beyond general Jewish creationism in its importance). The article on Rav Yosef Shalom Elyashiv should also be expanded to reflect this and other important charamim that he has decreed. Dovi 10:58, July 10, 2005 (UTC)

To quote JFW above "If Student's only merit is putting out controversional books with a small readership, then he may not be notable." --Eliezer 11:02, 10 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]
First of all, their readership is huge now, precisely because of what the article described. They are having a publishing boom. Second of all, I respectfully disagree with the notion that publishing banned books in general is not of notable interest. Actually, it is of great interest to many (witness the "Banned books" section at the "Online Books Page"). Even JFW was hesitant ("may not"), because this really goes against all intuition. Thirdly, this banning controversy, especially because of the immediate and publically defended reissue, goes well beyond a general cherem of the Rav Shach or Rav Elyashiv type.Dovi 11:08, July 10, 2005 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in an undeletion request). No further edits should be made to this page.
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