The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. The emerging consensus seems to be that Crookes has not played any professional league games. ItsZippy ^{(talk • contributions)} 15:51, 1 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Grant Crookes[edit]

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This player has never played in a professional league - claims in the article that he played for Hartlepool and Darlington are simply false, as confirmed by this and this and this - so he fails WP:NFOOTBALL. He also fails WP:GNG due to lack of significant coverage - the sources are WP:ROUTINE, standard local news about a non-notable person. Giant Snowman 15:41, 24 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related deletions. Giant Snowman 15:42, 24 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. Fails WP:GNG and WP:NFOOTBALL. Mattythewhite (talk) 16:09, 24 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Football-related deletion discussions. ★☆ DUCKISJAMMMY☆★ 16:22, 24 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. ★☆ DUCKISJAMMMY☆★ 16:22, 24 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

~~Keep~~. User Mattythewhite deleted all mention of Crookes's professional career from the article, claiming that it was "unsourced and blatantly untrue". I have restored this material because, contrary to his claim, it was sourced (to this article in the Northern Echo) and because none of the three sources included in the nomination above appears to meet WP:RS (they're all self-published websites). Since there is a reliable source that attests to Crookes's having played professional football he passes WP:NFOOTBALL. Dricherby (talk) 18:31, 24 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

That is incredibly lazy journalism that has just copied the (false) Wikipedia stats without checking them - not reliable in the slightest. The Neil Brown sources I have provided - which show he DID NOT play - are reliable & respected; in my 6+ years of football editing here I can also confirm that the inthemadcrowd website is accurate and incredibly comprehensive. Giant Snowman 18:37, 24 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Well, here are two more sources: Sunderland Echo and Newcastle Evening Chronicle. There's also another one at the Northern Echo but it has the same byline as the one you dismissed as "lazy journalism". Note that, in the Sunderland Echo, the statement that Crookes played professionally comes in a direct quote from the chairman of Chester-le-Street, where Crookes had just been appointed manager: are you suggesting that he lied on the job application? Dricherby (talk) 18:57, 24 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I am saying there is no evidence that he played professionally, and actually strong evidence to the contrary. Giant Snowman 19:03, 24 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Mattythewhite has stated on the article talk page that Crookes is not mentioned in Barry J. Hugman's book The PFA Premier & Football League Players' Records 1946–2005. Dricherby (talk) 19:11, 24 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

An extremely reliable & trusted source, and one that Neil Brown is the online version of... Giant Snowman 19:15, 24 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Neutral --Dweller (talk) 22:52, 24 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Not yet. It seems to me that, the way things are turning out, the deletion nomination is a little premature. If it can be convincingly proven that Crookes played for Hartlepool and Darlington, then the result should be to keep this article. If it is convincingly proven that he did not play for either of the clubs, then the decision should probably be to delete. However, absence from a list is not conclusive proof that he did not play, and the newspaper reports would normally be considered a reliable source. It's worth noting there is a further source at the Bradford Telegraph and Argus which mentions Crookes playing for Darlington. The problem with all these citations, however, is that they are all hearsay, citing various club officials stating that he once played for so-and-so. Remember though, Wikipedia relies on what is verifiable, regardless of whether this is actually true or not. Can anyone find match reports or programmes with team listings from the time, which would provide further evidence? Skinsmoke (talk) 07:39, 25 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- The Hugman book mentioned above is complete & reliable & does not mention him. GiantSnowman 08:08, 25 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  - (ec) I have to say, the Hugman book and the Brown website really aren't the kind of sources to omit any eligible players, let alone those (supposedly) making in excess of 40 Football League appearances. I do have copies of the Rothmans Football Yearbooks for the relevant seasons, which list all players and their exact appearances for each Football League club in a given season. I'll be able to access these at some point later today, which will hopefully settle this at last... Cheers, Mattythewhite (talk) 08:15, 25 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    - I agree with Skinsmoke's assessment that it all comes down to whether he played. The omission from Hugman could be an error but if he's not in the Rothmans books, either, I'd be satisfied that he didn't play. Dricherby (talk) 08:24, 25 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
      - Agreed. Good solution. Please look for variants of the name, too, as Rothmans haven't always had the highest standards of proofreading! --Dweller (talk) 09:43, 25 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
        On the subject of variants, I checked the Neil Brown lists for any plausible mis-spellings, for anyone who had been at Hartlepool and Darlington at the right time and even for anyone who had transferred from Hartlepool to Darlington in about 1983 (in case he'd changed his name, for example) but still came up with nothing. It could still be that he was omitted from Hugman in error, of course, so Rothmans is still needed. Dricherby (talk) 10:38, 25 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
        There's no Crookes, no one with the first name Grant or anyone else born 26-9-1965 playing league or cupgames for Darlington/Hartlepool in the early and mid 80's according to Rothmans, the Definitive Darlington (Frank Tweddle, a soccerdata publication) or the Definitive Hartlepool Fc (Gordon Small, soccerdata) There are some players missing on neil brown's site ,that's because it's largely based on an early version of Hugman. You won't find someone like Roy Drinkwater on his site (1 league match for Crewe in 1970-71) He is listed in the most recent version of Hugman. Cattivi (talk) 11:20, 25 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
        Essentially just repeating what Cattivi said, but Rothmans Football Yearbook 1983–84 (covers 1982–83), p. 185 makes no mention of a Crookes appearing for Hartlepool United. Rothmans Football Yearbook 1984–85, p. 147 (covers 1983–84) and Rothmans Football Yearbook 1985–86, p. 183 (covers 1984–85) make no mention of a Crookes appearing for Darlington. Mattythewhite (talk) 20:31, 25 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Delete, replacing my earlier !vote. From my point of view, the evidence from Rothmans and Hugman is enough for whatever the opposite of WP:HEY is. Dricherby (talk) 21:55, 25 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.