The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep per WP:SNOW. It's impossible to nail down exactly where the notability threshold in soccer falls between Brazil and Montserrat, but the 27 caps on the national team of intermediate strength should be enough. Decisions like this will always be a little subjective. The community has spoken almost unanimously for this case. Non-admin closure. YechielMan 22:57, 22 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Igor Jancevski[edit]

The article is about a non-notable player who has never played in a fully proffessional league.

user:KRBN 12:36, 18 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - if he's in the national squad for a UEFA country, that's good enough for me. - fchd 09:48, 18 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Keep assuming this page is correct then he has 26 full international caps which I feel is more than sufficient to bestow notability ChrisTheDude 09:52, 18 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Keep How can a footballer who's appeared for his country be non notable. Did the nominator actually try checking him out before nominating him? This UEFA page is second up on google and clearly shows he's an international player. He's playing for Macedonia in the qualifiers for European championships of 2008. Nick mallory 11:05, 18 April 2007 (UTC) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Nick mallory (talk • contribs) 11:04, 18 April 2007 (UTC).[reply]
Keep has played for Macedonia's national squad! Are you sure the Cypriot First Division is not a fully professional league? I'm pretty sure it is. In any case, it's the highest league in Cyprus, and that's surely notable. --Canley 12:43, 18 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Anyone that plays on a national team is notable. I'm not sure what else this footballer could do to be more notable. He played at the highest level and represented his country. Sure, the article isn't long, but that doesn't mean it needs to be deleted. --Cyrus Andiron 12:59, 18 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Keep he's a current full international for heaven's sake! How could anyone have thought this should be deleted? - iridescenti (talk to me!) 13:05, 18 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Keep For all the reasons stated above. Anyone who has played 26 internationals and who is playing in Euro 2008 qualifiers should not even be nominated for deletion.♦Tangerines BFC ♦·Talk 15:09, 18 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment All of you are saying that he is notable because of his national team. However, that was discussed above and was said [1]. As for Cypriot league, just few clubs are professionals. No it is not fully proffessional and I know that since I am Cypriot and watch Cypriot league.

User:KRBN 20:03, 18 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Under the list of conditions at WP:BIO where a topic is "probably" appropriate for inclusion, one of the criteria is "Competitors who have played or competed at the highest level in amateur sports." The subjectivity comes from determining what highest level means. It seems that a national team should be competing at the highest level of amateur or professional sports. However, this article is a pretty weak stub without any verifiable sources given, but this is not a justification for immmediate deletion, just a reason to tag it for lack of sources and do some research. If no solid sources of information exist on thie player, the world has not recognized him as notable. Why should we? --Kevin Murray 17:34, 18 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Keep: Yes, we are saying he is notable because he plays for his national team (and not in a few games, but in 27 matches according to the Football Federation of Macedonia's website [2], and it isn't as if the Macedonian team is one of those teensy perennial losers like Montserrat; it's currently ranked 54th by FIFA. His Israeli team's now in the 2nd division after relegation, but it has played before in the Ligat ha'Al, and that's more than professional enough. (That aside, I dropped in because nom hit up my talk page; he isn't quite explicitly canvassing, but close enough.) RGTraynor 17:35, 18 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment What you are saying is in contrast with what you said in the talkpage of WP:BIO about Montserrat international players. Your explanation now about Monterssat has no sense because FYROM national team may be 54th but sure is not a class national team, not from even the average teams in UEFA and most important, has never played in any major competition or even a playoff to qualify to such competition. If you were comparing Monterssat with national teams such as Germany, Italy, or even Greece (which won the Euro in the past), I would have understood it. However, Monserrat may be weaker than FYROM, but sure both of them are not class teams. If he is written because he is a national player, then Monterssat player, even if they were 200th, can also be written for the same reason and that' s why I am sayiing what you said before and now are in contrast. At least may be I am the only person that I support the deletion herem, however I am permanent in what I believe and I have the courage to support it, while you supported different views before and different now.

And respnse to 2 comments of you; if Israel League is professional enough I would like to know how do u know that and where have you read it (don't tell me about success in Europe because Tbilsi qualified in Groups but however the championship is not proffessional). I am asking because someone else told me that he is sure that Cyprus League is also fully proffessional and it is enough notability, however as it happens to me to be a Cypriot, Cyprus is not at all fully proffessional, having only very few proffessional clubs in first division. As for canvassing, I didn't tell you to support the deletion of the article but because here I SEE people supporting keep and on the other hand I saw opposite views in talk of WP:BIO, including persons like you. People like you are naturally to confuse wikipedians. --User:KRBN 21:21, 18 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: No, you didn't say so explicitly, but if you were cherrypicking editors whose views you thought matched your own to invite into the AfD you nominated yourself, that's clear vote-canvassing. Secondly, if you don't understand the difference between a team ranked 54th in the world and one ranked 199th and last, I can't help you, but I hope you'll understand if we find FIFA's assessment of team quality more reliable per WP:RS than yours. Thirdly, while I gave my opinion in the discussion on athlete notability, and believe current standards to be far too loose, the fact of the matter is that I am obliged to assess an AfD based on what Wikipedia policy and guidelines are, not what I wish them to be. Fourthly, I am not terribly surprised, as no one else ought to be, that a national side affiliated no more than a dozen years with FIFA hasn't so far progressed beyond the Euros or the Cup qualifiers, both of which Macedonia's played in, despite your assertion to the contrary [3]. Fifthly, Israel's premier league is certainly notable enough to have an updated page on the FIFA website [4]. Finally, I give opinions on Wikipedia based on my own reasoning and judgment, and can do so all by myself, without editorial comments by third parties about what I should think based on my past patterns. RGTraynor 19:36, 18 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Keep per the other keeps. Acalamari 19:09, 18 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - player in the highest leauge of an independent country makes notability. Even if the league is semi-pro, we can keep players in the highest league as they are the top athletes of their sport in that nation and in this case, candidates for world cup play. --Boongoman 20:30, 18 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment In response to the comment above in bold about Macedonia not ever having played in any major competition and that they "sure are not a class team", well on 16th October 2002, Macedonia drew 2-2 with England, in England in a Euro 2004 qualifier, and only lost the return fixture 2-1. That is very notable to me. In addition it is hardly relevant, or fair, to mention that they have never qualified for any major competition, when you consider the comparitively short a space of time, when compared to most other football nations, they have even been competing internationally.♦Tangerines BFC ♦·Talk 23:16, 18 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I have added two external links as reliable sources (the BBC and UEFA), they are small but contain a fair bit of statistical and biographical data about this player. Hopefully this will allow him to at least just meet Wikipedia's primary notability guideline. That said, there appears to be a spate of notability-based AfDs recently which insist on applying subjective notability criteria based on perceived sporting prowess or ranking, as if we should exclude players, teams and leagues which despite being at the highest level in their country or region "only came 70th in the world" or "qualified for the Olympics but came last in their event" or some other such arbitrary level of inclusion. --Canley 01:48, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - If "they played for a country that never qualified for a finals" were grounds for deletion, that's George Best out the door then - iridescenti (talk to me!) 15:13, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Keep and expand article. There seems something political in the original proposal which I find rather distasteful. Daemonic Kangaroo 19:33, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - national caps. And are Varteks Varaždin not professional? Archibald99 21:32, 20 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Keep, has national caps thus meets inclusion guidelines. Englishrose 12:12, 21 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.