The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was speedy keep. This is an awkward close. The nominator has withdrawn but there is a single delete !vote still out there. I am going to assume HurricaneFan25 hasn't seen the below discussion and close this as a speedy keep; nominator withdrawn. v/r - TP 15:22, 20 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Illyriad[edit]

Illyriad (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)

(Find video game sources: "Illyriad" – news · newspapers · books · scholar · JSTOR · free images · free news sources · TWL · NYT · WP reference · VG/RS · VG/RL · WPVG/Talk)

This article has a problem with non-free image use and inappropriate tone. I was considering cleaning it up, when I realized sourcing was also extremely poor. Nearly all of the references are to the official website/forum, affiliated websites, databases or press releases. The best source is the stuff from joystiq, but that is all written by the same guy and I am dubious whether it is truly reliable. My question is therefor: should this be cleaned up or deleted as not-notable? Yoenit (talk) 14:20, 12 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• • Pending more opinions on the joystiq.com sources my current position as nominator is now to keep the article and improve it. The reason for this is that Rescendent's comments cast reasonable doubt on whether the assesment of joystiq as a "multi-author blog" is accurate and until this issue is resolved (which might take a while) we should give it the advantage of the doubt and assume it is reliable. Yoenit (talk) 11:58, 15 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete Little in-depth coverage — as Yoenit found, most of the material in GNews is from Joystiq, and the only other coverage in Google News' archives are from unreliable sources (e.g. a press release from Gamasutra and two other unreliable sources from JeuxVideo.com and Develop). HurricaneFan25 14:40, 12 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep (Disclosure: I am the article's creator) Have made a few changes. I would suggest cleanup. The joystiq stuff is mostly written by the same guy as he is their editor covering free-to-play MMOs, which this game is one of. I would argue that the notability and sourcing is higher in this article than most if not all of the Category:Massively multiplayer online real-time strategy games for example: The Continuum, Planetarion, PoxNora, Urban Dead, Virtonomics, Might and Magic Heroes Kingdoms, CivWorld, ERepublik, Evony, Ikariam, Lord of Ultima, OGame, Travian, TribalWars, War of Legends. Or even more so: Chronology of massively multiplayer online strategy video games e.g. Trade Wars, TradeWars 2002, Space Empire Elite, Barren Realms Elite, Falcon's Eye, Solar Realms Elite, STellar Chaos, Yankee Trader, Horseland, UltraCorps, Reign, NukeZone, Urban Dead, Mankind, FateLords, Mudcraft, Society, Saga. Being devils advocate, if Illyriad was deleted it would suggest the those categories and most of the articles in it should be deleted - which to be clear I am not suggesting..! Rescendent (talk) 17:47, 12 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of video game-related deletion discussions. (G·N·B·S·RS·Talk) • Gene93k (talk) 18:20, 12 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Games-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 18:20, 12 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps you might want to review WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS. The status of other articles is probably not a solid argument in an AfD -- an article should be judged on its own merits, not "compared" to other articles. Salvidrim! 19:56, 12 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Fair point :-) Rescendent (talk) 20:13, 12 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep Whilst the standard of some refs isn't up to WP:RS, it's not required that all of them are. We have enough here to demonstrate notability. Although no gamer, I'm interested to see how the HTML5 aspects work out.

I'm also concerned about user:ViezeRick canvassing for deletions at WP:AFD. I first saw this article there and from comments there expected to see some massive campaign by hordes of gamers to railroad an AfD. I've seen nothing of the sort - the only dubious behaviour would seem to be in the other direction. Andy Dingley (talk) 00:00, 13 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Shouldn't this be deleted in accordance with Wikipedia:NOT? The article is written like an advertisement and it's currently nothing more than an advertisement. When no longer an advertisement, would the article be notable? And if so, what makes it notable? ViezeRick (talk) 08:35, 13 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Inappropriate tone and notability are completely unrelated. I would also note I do not consider the page an advertisement, although there are problems. Yoenit (talk) 09:32, 13 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• Are the reviews in joystiq considered reliable sources? http://gamasutra.com/blogs/BenAdams/20111011/8561/Illyriad_The_Journey_from_Concept_to_HTML5.php is written by someone who works for that company. Other links are to sites that just reprinted the press release. Dream Focus 09:04, 13 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I had a look and apparently joystiq is a multi-author blog and it would only be reliable if Beau Hindman meets the criteria for selfpublished sources. According to his own website he also did reviews for Ablegamers.com (a website for disabled gamers) and MMORPG.com, where he is apparently a [1] Mabinogi (video game) correspondent. I do not think that is enough to satisfy the criteria for self-published sources. I do not see anything else which could be considered a reliable source in the article, so if we consider the material from mr Hindman reliable that still counts as only one reliable source, while multiple sources are generally expected. Yoenit (talk) 09:32, 13 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

On reliability of author can you provide a link to the policy on multi-author blogs as I'm not sure what the details are, as this joystiq property has editorial over site, a declared staff etc. http://massively.joystiq.com/team/ of which Beau Hindman (professional joystiq link, rather than previous personal link) is one. Rescendent (talk) 09:56, 13 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'm assuming the previous link was a personal one, but I am making an assumption... For WP:RS not sure WP:NEWSBLOG applies as is that about blogs that also have physical magazines, papers or broadcast on tv? Perhaps WP:WikiProject_Video_games/Sources#Review_sites might be more applicable e.g. "checked for factuality by an editor" Rescendent (talk) 10:19, 13 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

If you scroll down on that last page you will find joystiq listed under "situational sources", where it recommends showing the reliability of an individual author, which I assume refers to the rules for self published sources. The fact that it has a declared staff as you show above casts some doubt on this though, perhaps we should ask for input at the reliable sources noticeboard and Wikiproject Video Games? Yoenit (talk) 12:11, 13 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Added a response to a very old question to Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Video_games/Sources#Massively.com_-_Joystiq, the the reliable sources noticeboard scared me a little... should something be added to Wikiproject Video Games as well? Rescendent (talk) 12:39, 13 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I posted requests at both pages [2][3]. Yoenit (talk) 14:47, 13 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.