The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Nomination withdrawn. No prejudice towards relisting separately depending on outcome of ongoing DRV. (non-admin closure) Smartyllama (talk) 13:52, 2 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Israel at the European Baseball Championship[edit]

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This article duplicates information that exists at the national team page of Israel. Therefore its unnecessary. Nations at the xxx pages are also reserved for events with multiple sports or disciplines. This one focuses on just one sport. Also quoting Peter Rehse, from another similar AFD [1], There is nothing demonstrating that [the country] performed anywhere near notable."

We did have an earlier AFD discussion with all similar articles grouped under one and in a complete oversight I forgot this article and the ones below. Sportsfan 1234 (talk) 13:56, 31 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Delete all ~~Except Hopman Cup~~ As I stated in the prior AfD, most of these these fail WP:SPORTSEVENT and WP:NOTSTATS. They should have been included in that one, but a simple oversight doesn't justify their continued inclusion. However, we do appear to have articles on other teams which have qualified for the Hopman Cup (see, for instance France at the Hopman Cup), so those should probably be taken to a separate AfD if we want to establish consensus. Also, seeing as the Hopman Cup is essentially the national tennis team, similar to Davis Cup and Fed Cup, I'm not sure the same circumstances apply. Smartyllama (talk) 14:06, 31 January 2017 (UTC) Delete European Baseball Championships article, Keep others - given the existence of other similar articles and the comments by Nfitz below, if nominator feels they are all not notable, they should be nominated as a group, not like this. However, those articles are only for tournaments that the teams have actually qualified for. Israel has never qualified for the Israel Baseball Championship, and to my knowledge no similar articles exist for that tournament anyway as it is a relatively minor one compared to the other two so the means of doing the AfD is not an issue. Smartyllama (talk) 13:58, 1 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- Note Nominator has withdrawn the Hopman Cup article since I wrote this. As that part is now moot, I have clarified my !vote is now to delete all of the remaining articles. Smartyllama (talk) 14:15, 31 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - Countries at the AFC Asian cup is not uncommon. You have not stated what WP policy you are basing your conclusion on only multiple sports competitions should have their own page. See Australia at the AFC Asian Cup, Iraq at the AFC Asian Cup, South Korea at the AFC Asian Cup for some AFC Asian Cup examples. Additionally there is tons of information on the WBC page not found elsewhere so your argument makes no sense - Galatz ^Talk 14:30, 31 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS is not an argument to keep. The ones you mentioned should probably be deleted too. Smartyllama (talk) 14:33, 31 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  - @Galatz: You and Nifitz have managed to convince me on retaining the AFC and WBC ones, but I'm still not convinced the European Baseball Championships one should be kept. First of all, it's a much more minor tournament than the other two. Second, the article is much less developed than the other two (or at least the WBC one) and is basically WP:NOTSTATS. Third of all, Israel has never actually qualified for the European Baseball Championship, unlike the other two tournaments. Fourth of all, there are no similar articles for other countries at that tournament, even those who have qualified, so Nfitz's argument that they should all be nominated together and not like this doesn't apply. Why do you think that one specifically should be kept? I notice you didn't mention it above. Smartyllama (talk) 14:03, 1 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Baseball-related deletion discussions. Smartyllama (talk) 14:41, 31 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Football-related deletion discussions. Smartyllama (talk) 14:42, 31 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Sports-related deletion discussions. Smartyllama (talk) 14:43, 31 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Israel-related deletion discussions. Smartyllama (talk) 14:44, 31 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Keep L3X1 My Complaint Desk 14:49, 31 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- @L3X1: Please specify a reason for your !vote. Smartyllama (talk) 15:12, 31 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  - Smartyllama What do you want to me say? I disagree nearly completly with OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. L3X1 My Complaint Desk 15:16, 31 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    - L3X1 You mean you disagree with it in principle or you disagree that it applies here? If it's the former, that's completely irrelevant - the principles apply whether you like it or not. While there can be discussion on whether the principles should continue to apply, this is not the appropriate place to have it. If it's the latter, explain why it doesn't apply here. Smartyllama (talk) 15:19, 31 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
      - Smartyllama Then what does all this stuff at the top of OSE mean: "This unofficial guidance essay contains comments and advice of one or more Wikipedia contributors. It is not a Wikipedia policy or guideline, although it may be consulted for assistance. It may contain opinions that are shared by few or no other editors;"??? L3X1 My Complaint Desk 20:57, 31 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
        L3X1 Well either way, deletion discussion guidelines require a reason for your vote. Smartyllama (talk) 14:00, 1 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - I'm uncomfortable deleting Israel at the AFC Asian Cup when looking at Template:Countries at the UEFA European Championship there's over 30 articles for various countries at the comparable UEFA European Championship. Other stuff exists sometimes for a good reason. Also, I'm not sure why Israel is being singled out here, in various sports - rather than tackling it on a sport-by-sport basis - or at least not massing together multiple sports. It doesn't lead to a very clean process. I'm aware that Israel at the UEFA European Championship was deleted in the referenced Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Israel at the FIBA Basketball World Cup, however the example is not comparable, as Isreal has never qualified for the UEFA tournament, but has qualified for the similar AFC one. Nfitz (talk) 22:47, 31 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I am sorry if it feels like Israel is being singled out. I saw one article and then through clicking saw the various other ones (therefore I grouped them). I am sure I will be proceeding with AFD's for the other sports... Sportsfan 1234 (talk) 03:20, 1 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

So you think that there should be an AFD for England at the UEFA European Championship? Nfitz (talk) 06:13, 1 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Comment @Nfitz: Israel has never qualified for the European Baseball Championship. Should that be kept as well? That being said, you've convinced me on the tournaments Israel actually has qualified for (AFC and WBC) and I'm going to alter my !vote above accordingly. I still think the European Baseball one should be deleted as a) Israel has never qualified for it, and b) it's a much more minor tournament compared to the other two. If you are only referring to the AFC page in your !vote, which it seems like you might be given you specifically referenced it and not the others, and that some of the arguments don't even apply to the others, please alter it accordingly to make it more clear to the closing admin. Smartyllama (talk) 13:52, 1 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Personally, in a mass AFDs, when they are poorly thought out, I think they should all be kept, and some should be resubmitted to AFD later, individually, or in smaller, more sensible groups. Every AFD in the football area I've seen from this person has been problematic, starting with Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Luxembourg women's international footballers which was shocking, and was a snow keep in hours. Even in the Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Israel at the FIBA Basketball World Cup referenced above, it managed to sneak in Israel at the FIFA World Cup, but then failed to notify any of the WP:FOOTBALL community that it was going on - surely at a mininum, that should have been a redirect to Israel national football team; I'm not sure why you supported that deletion, rather than a redirect, given what else exists (i.e. Template:Countries at the FIFA World Cup), and I'm not sure why User:CambridgeBayWeather went along with it. I remain concerned, that there seems to be an attempt to strictly remove Isreali articles; we all know that and AFD for Brazil at the FIFA World Cup would fail. Nfitz (talk) 14:54, 1 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

You failed the answer the question at hand! Instead of accusing someone of attempting to remove Israeli articles please provide valid reasons why they should be kept (especially the European Baseball Championship). It was mentioned earlier OTHERSTUFFEXISTS is not a valid argument. Sportsfan 1234 (talk) 15:04, 1 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I did answer it. I think the AFD is fatally flawed, all articles should be kept, and if necessary, do a new AFD for the baseball one (which I'm not really qualified to comment on) individually. Nfitz (talk) 15:28, 1 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Nfitz: I'm not sure why you didn't bring that template up in that AfD, considering it would have led me and possibly others to change my vote on that article. But that has nothing to do with this AfD, especially with an article that has nothing whatsoever to do with the sport. Answer the question concerning the European Baseball Championship, and stop ignoring it and making excuses. You're always welcome to contact the closing admin or take it to deletion review if that fails. I, for one, would support restoring the World Cup article in light of the new information. However, this AfD is not the place to discuss a previous one. Baseball isn't football, so stop using football arguments about baseball as they are irrelevant. Smartyllama (talk) 15:15, 1 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Also, when we make separate AfD's for each article, people complain that there are too many and it's unfair to make people deal with all of them. When we propose them together, people complain about that too. You can't have it both ways. Smartyllama (talk) 15:22, 1 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Because I was unaware that the AFD was underway. It wasn't listed at Wikipedia:WikiProject Football/Nominations for deletion and page moves, Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Football, or the WP:Football article alerts, which I keep an eye on (thank you though for listing this one!). If I saw the name of the AFD itself, there was nothing in the title to make me think it was something I should look at. Had I been aware of the AFD, I would have commented on this issue; this is the problem of trying to mass AFD unrelated articles. I don't think I've ever complained about separate AFDs. I can't fathom putting FIFA World Cup deletions inside an article about Baseball, and then failing to notify any of the Football deletions areas. Nfitz (talk) 15:28, 1 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Nfitz: There is already a deletion review in progress for that AfD, which Galatz started earlier today. That is the place to discuss concerns with that AfD, not here. This page should deal only with the articles in this AfD. Please move all further discussion on the earlier AfD over there. If you have anything more to say on the articles in question in this AfD, go ahead, but keep this one on-topic please. Smartyllama (talk) 15:33, 1 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Is there? Thanks, I wasn't aware of that. Shouldn't a DRV be mentioned at the top of Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Israel at the FIBA Basketball World Cup - perhaps I've forgotten the procedure. I wouldn't have mentioned it here, had I known of the DRV. Won't mention it again. Nfitz (talk) 15:46, 1 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Nfitz: Again you refuse to answer the question at hand here. Can you please explain why the baseball article should be kept? Sportsfan 1234 (talk) 15:44, 1 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I have answered the question twice now. Because I feel the entire AFD is flawed, with unrelated articles, that are no way in the same category. I see no reason to keep asking me the same question that I've already answered. Nfitz (talk) 15:49, 1 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - The European one was also discussed here Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Israel at the 2016 European Baseball Championship (2nd nomination) resulting in keep. - Galatz ^Talk 15:48, 1 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- @Galatz: No, that was a specific instance of the European Baseball Championship, which has since been deleted in the aforementioned AfD. As I told Nfitz, if you object to that, the appropriate place to discuss it is the DRV you created, which it looks like you already have. I would suggest striking your comment here as it is misleading. Smartyllama (talk) 15:50, 1 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree completely. I brought it up here because I believe the tournament is notable, as that discussion shows. If when looked at individually an individual year is notable, how could the tournament not be? Its completely relevant. - Galatz ^Talk 16:10, 1 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Except that that page was ultimately deleted for not being notable in a later AfD. Which is why your statement that it was kept is misleading. If you feel it should have been kept, that's what deletion review is for, but this is not the place to discuss that.Smartyllama (talk) 16:11, 1 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

And I disagree with that. I think it being lumped with everything else was misleading. My comment stands and let someone who is looking at it determine if its relevant or misleading. - Galatz ^Talk 16:13, 1 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

And again, that's a discussion for DRV, not here. At the very least, I recommend you edit it to note the fact that it was later deleted in a mass AfD, while voicing your concerns about the process in which that happened, so people are aware of the totality of the circumstances without having to read all the ways down the comment tree. Smartyllama (talk) 16:15, 1 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The AFD isn't entirely irrelevant here, as it was mentioned in the nominating statement, as justification for deleting these articles. However the AFD has been challenged at DRV, in particular on the basis that the articles like those here, should have been kept; and no one seems to be disagreeing with that. Nfitz (talk) 17:11, 1 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

And I've said the AFC and WBC articles should be kept. To date, nobody has made a similar argument for the European Baseball Championship except one person who said "Keep" without specifying any reason at all, which shouldn't be counted. And we're talking about that here, that's what's relevant. I encourage the closing admin to keep that in mind. Smartyllama (talk) 17:29, 1 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Perhaps it would be best for the nominator to withdraw this temporarily and reopen it again as necessary depending on the results of the DRV. We're having discussions in too many places here and it's causing unneeded confusion. Also, some people might change their votes depending on the outcome of the DRV. If the FIFA World Cup article stays deleted after review, I can see no rational argument for keeping the article about a continental tournament. I think they should both be kept, but the FIFA World Cup one is clearly more notable, and if that were to stay deleted, I would be reluctant to keep the AFC one for consistency's sake. Given the small number of articles compared to last time, I would also suggest the nominator nominate them separately when he reopens it if he chooses to do it that way. Smartyllama (talk) 17:33, 1 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Per Smartyllama, I am going to withdraw this afd. I do not believe articles should exist for events a country has not qualified for so the baseball one will come up again in the future. Sportsfan 1234 (talk) 01:50, 2 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Per WP:CLOSEAFD non-admin closure for withdrawal is only if no one else voted to delete. Not really sure in this situation since Smartyllama and nominator are the two who voted delete and both say to close. Perhaps Smartyllama could close? - Galatz ^Talk 02:24, 2 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Can't the nominator withdraw at anytime for any reason? L3X1 My Complaint Desk 02:31, 2 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

It says at WP:CLOSEAFD As mentioned above, the AfD nominator can withdraw the nomination and close a discussion as speedy keep reason #1, if all other viewpoints expressed were for Keep and doing so does not short-circuit an ongoing discussion. In essense with Smartyllama closing it takes away his delete vote, making only the nominator voting delete. - Galatz ^Talk 02:53, 2 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.