The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was No consensus -- Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 15:10, 9 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Juan Carlos Echeverry[edit]

Nom - fails WP:BIO and WP:MUSIC. The article lacks WP:V and WP:RS. While future projects look hopeful, his career so far doesn't look all that interesting so far. I Prod'ed this one, but the original author removed the tag without making any improvements. Rklawton 14:13, 27 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - If this article is deleted, please also remove Image:JCminipic.jpg which was uploaded solely to illustrate it. Rklawton 14:20, 27 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per nom. (Note: I was not informed of the AfD. I was watching the article and noticed the removal of the ((prod)), and was going to nominate it myself.) Not quite a speedy ((db-bio)), as it asserts improbable notability which is not sourced in the article. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 14:22, 27 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Weak keep , notability asserted by articles in El Espectador and El Tiempo, both non-trival and in fact very good critiques, what makes me go for week is that both articles have not been directly referenced but through a tertiary source on a website Alf^Photoman 15:53, 27 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Question - I read these articles after they were posted, but how do they satisfy WP:MUSIC? Rklawton 16:36, 27 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - neither of these articles are critiques at all. They are summaries of his career progression from Bogota to Europe and his first job in Paris. Now, if all performers who have signed a contract with the Paris opera (which one?) are notable, then this guy should have an article. If not, then there is nothing in these sources to indicate this singer is notable. Rklawton 00:59, 28 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - The short of it is, this guy is just starting his career, and I see nothing extraordinary. The article, makes it clear that he exists and that he's had two articles written about him in the Colombian press. He has made no records, taken no leading roles in major productions, and he has received no critical reviews from the opera press. Rklawton 16:36, 27 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

To the contrary of popular musicians, classic musicians just don't disappear into oblivion after starting their career with positive critiques, and there is more than one notable classical musician who has not yet made a record... and I can't remember any classical music being in the top 100 of any chart since Miguel Rios' adaptation of the final chorus of Beethoven's 9th. And opera press, who are they? Alf^Photoman 17:48, 27 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The question is, who writes the positive critique? Has the subject generated any buzz within the opera community? It boils down to whether or not reliable sources say this guy is any good. Just as there are well respected book, movie, and theatre critics, there are also well respected opera critics. They are the ones who should determine whether or not this guy is notable, and we haven't heard word one from them. Rklawton 18:04, 27 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Good that you are the expert, I need urgently a name of a respected Colombian opera critic Alf^Photoman 18:17, 27 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. Without a respected opera critic (with opera, I don't think nationality is significant), this article will have a great deal of difficulty demonstrating its subject's notability. Rklawton 18:37, 27 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comments - Article meets more then only ,,one criteria,, , listed in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:MUSIC. Very hard to me to understand where is a lack of information and/or opera critic's articles. We have at least two from the very respected critics from el El Espectador and El Tiempo. I am afraid you don't like latino opera singers at all :))) Is it? Anyway, according to the rules article can be kept, nevertheless it can be added or improved. Honestly, I will never comment any article about any ptotographer, because my knowladge in these issues are so limited.User:White Sombrero 22:17, 27 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

trying to disqualify me too? Alf^Photoman 23:09, 27 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Question - are you stating that both articles reproduced here [1] were authored by respected opera critics? Rklawton 23:33, 27 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Answer - I don't try to disqualify anybody here, but it is really interesting, that only two professional photographers are criticizing an article about opera singer. Nevertheless, I asked two agencies in Paris and Geneva two send me additional press kit about him. I a going to improve the article with significant information. Back to the rules, there are clearly stated all conditions to post the article. He already meets more then only ONE condition. Thank you / Evheristo para poly. . User:White Sombrero
Reply - I see. So first you claim the two authors were reputable critics, and now you make no such claim? Next, would you mind telling us which criteria this person has satisfied so far? Finally, anyone who reads Wikipedia's rules can check to see if an article satisfies those rules. At present, I see nothing to indicate this biography satisfies those rules. I will be happy for the singer if indeed he is worthy of an article. I will be just as happy to see his article removed if he is not. Rklawton 00:03, 28 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. Please note that "press kits" are not a WP:RS. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 00:14, 28 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

But mostly mention reliable sources if available, so I guess we should leave User:White Sombrero the chance to improve the article Alf^Photoman 00:31, 28 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for understanding / Evheristo. Xronikos polys.

Question - what roles has this subject actually sung in concert with the Paris opera? The second source indicates he hasn't sung anything in concert at all. Rklawton 01:05, 28 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
weak keep The roles are listed in the third paragraph under "education and profession" It would have been preferable to add the reviews in the first place--apparently it is not yet generally understood that a WP article needs sources. DGG
Comment vague claims for roles (performed where, when, and for whom?) may be enough to prevent a speedy delete, but this is an AfD and those statements aren't supported by the sources. While it may not be commonly understood by novice editors that articles need sources (or biographical subjects should be notable), the article was first tagged for sources. It was later prodded with both the sources and notability problems clearly highlighted. Both these tags were ignored and deleted by the creating editor. In short, he/she was well advised prior to this AfD, and the article still lacks reliable, verifiable sources. Remember, the one "source" provided lists two improperly cited articles (it's not even a secondary source). The other source is the OIA and does nothing to verify most of the claims made in the article. Rklawton 04:32,

28 February 2007 (UTC)

Roles are indicated in the web page of the agency. I checked other articles about other tenors. Most of are written in same way. Why we are not going to overwrite those articles? Maybe we should revise whole contributions about opera? Article should remain, even to give the chance to improve it. User:veritaRTs
Comment - this is a WP:SPA. The point I'm making above, is that while the OIA lists the performer's repertoire, it says nothing about if or where these roles were actually performed. The remaining articles are only partially credited reprints of (possibly) real articles – but none of them list any of his performances, either. Rklawton 16:55, 1 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.