This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record.
The result of the debate was delete. —Xezbeth 18:31, Apr 24, 2005 (UTC)

Judeofascism[edit]

Neologism of utterly minor use (fewer than 60 non-dictionary, non-Wikipedia hits) --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 00:19, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)

• Merge what little in here is NPOV and non-repetitive into Zionism. Nothing in the article suggests another application of the term. -- 8^D ^gab 01:24, 2005 Apr 17 (UTC)
• Merge, delete, no redirect. Neologism. Mikkalai 01:30, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
• The problem with breaking out sections from List of political epithets is, the articles encourage the ranters and loonies and bigots to carve out their own little POV forks. (Just look at how Islamofascism is turning into an even more biased take on Islamism.) Merge this article back to list of political epithets, or else move it to "Zionazism", which is a more common slur with very similar intent and meaning. —Charles P. ^(Mirv) 01:57, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  • Forget the move. A separate article under either title would be inherently POV and would probably attract original theses about the Revisionists' admiration for fascism, the Elon Plan and Lebensraum, and so forth. Merging back to list of political epithets is the only way to handle this. —Charles P. ^(Mirv) 13:14, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
• Delete Non notable racist neologism. Only 153 google hits. I might add this is really all part of User:Islamist atempt to clobber Islamofascism. He creates an objectionable article for the bogus neologism Judeofascism and then claims that the article on Islamofascism, a real word with 62,500 hits, must share the same fate (Merge and Protect/Deletion) as his obvious VfD fodder. This level of bad faith and intellectual dishonesty would make Noam Chomsky proud. I am somewhat saddened that VfD is being manipulated, for bad ends. Klonimus 02:21, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  • But this includes mention in the mainstream antiwar.com. I see no harm in a redirect in case someone reads it on that site and decides to look it up. El_C 04:05, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
    • 153 google hits is non notable. 129.10.244.130 23:15, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
• Delete. Gamaliel 02:24, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
• Delete this shit. Neutrality^talk 03:25, Apr 17, 2005 (UTC)
• Negative, redirect to list of political epithets and permanently protect. El_C 03:44, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  • I agree with El C: redirect/protect. Samaritan 05:54, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
• Merge and redirect to Zionism. Megan1967 05:33, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
• Delete. --Vladko 14:49, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
• Redirect to Zionism. A noble attempt to counteract and highlight anti-Arab, pro-Israeli bias, but our policy says Wikipedia:Don't disrupt Wikipedia to illustrate a point, so it has to go. — Helpful Dave 15:35, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  • Such a redirect would be inherantly POV. But I'm sure you knew that. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 02:36, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  • I didn't find that comment very Helpful Dave. Jayjg ^(talk) 03:06, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  • The redirect is pejorative since it implies, that Judeofascism is a synonym for Zionism. Klonimus 07:56, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)
• Either Delete or Redirect to List of political epithets. Firebug 17:40, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
• Delete. WP:POINT that gets almost no Google hits. If delete fails, the Re-direct to list of political epithets. Jayjg ^(talk) 20:05, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
• Delete - aside from the fact that the term begs the question, it doesn't even make any sense. --Leifern 02:28, 2005 Apr 18 (UTC)
• Delete. It is imaginable the term is used by someone (I'd need to see citations) and hence there could be a topic here. However, in the present article, it is just a nasty synonym for Zionism, and no citations are given for anyone using this nasty synonym. There is absolutely no value in keeping this. -- Jmabel | Talk 03:12, Apr 18, 2005 (UTC)
  • A decent case can be made for remving it on the list of epithets, since 153 hits aint very notable. Klonimus 07:56, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)
• Delete. Lack of notability. *Merge and redirect to List of political epithets. --Viriditas | Talk 07:39, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)
• Merge and Redirect to List of political epithets, and probbly protect the redirect. Delete I am not even sure this is a real epithe, and seems to be a violation of WP:POINT Dalf | Talk 05:00, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)
• Delete this junk term, it is a Term of disparagement and is on the political epithets list where it belongs only. See: List of political epithets#Judeofascism. IZAK 05:14, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)
• Merge and redirect. If people can show legitimate mainstream citations by notable commentators, I'll change my vote, as per Islamofascism. Meelar (talk) 05:18, Apr 18, 2005 (UTC)
• Delete. For the reasons IZAK listed. --Goodoldpolonius2 05:44, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)
• Redirect to List of political epithets, again. - Mustafaa 06:04, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)
• Delete or Redirect to List of political epithets#Judeofascism. ←Humus sapiens←Talk 07:14, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)
• Delete. This is WP:POINT, attempting to create a parallel with Islamofascism. It's POV, bad-faith editing. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 07:18, Apr 18, 2005 (UTC)
• Redirect to List of political epithets and permanently delete the POV commentary of this article, which is nothing more than an opinion piece, masquerading as an encyclopedia entry. NOTE: Clean up the definition at List of political epithets#Judeofascism! (In brief reference to that entry, I don't find Zionazism to be either derogatory or offensive...I find it, instead, to be an undeniable indication that people who hate Jews are (1) stupid beyond belief, as confirmed by the fact that they (2) don't take the time to learn how to says "Zionism"...) This term is emotionally charged, not only for me, as a Jew, but for pretty much all Jews for whom I'm not permitted to speak as well as for all peoples who have suffered under real fascism...I refer, of course, to the Republicans under Francisco Franco and the opposition under Benito Mussolini. If "Judeofascism" does exist, it is not exemplified in the policies of the state of Israel, nor is it condoned by any Jewish leadership of which I'm aware. That said, I fall back on the Wikipedia definition of Fascism:
  • exalts nation and sometimes race above the individual
  • uses violence and modern techniques of propaganda and censorship to forcibly suppress political opposition
  • engages in severe economic and social regimentation
  • engages in corporatism [1] (http://www.britannica.com/eb/article?tocId=219369)
  • implements totalitarianism

Let me review these points one at a time:

(1) "exalts nation and sometimes race above the individual": The Jewish nation is exalted above others only in the fanatical imagination of Jew-haters who incorrectly assume that the claim of "chosen-ness" indicates a claim of superiority. Such a claim has never been made by any Jewish scholar (and Jewhaters everywhere, despite their ignorance and unmitigated stupidity, will immediately admit the preponderance of scholars among Jews...), nor is there anything in mainstream Jewish literature to indicate that the notion of chosen-ness has anything to do with national or "racial" superiority. Second point in this vein, only non-Jews would ever be so ignorant or foolish (or almost inconceivably idiotic) as to assert that there is anything even remotely "racial" about being Jewish.

(2) "uses violence and modern techniques of propaganda and censorship to forcibly suppress political opposition": While this may be characteristic of the current government of Israel, its forcible suppression of political opposition by "violen[t] and modern techniques of propaganda and censorship" is employed exclusively against Jews who oppose its policies. For the naysayers in the crowd, let me make clear: Fascism suppresses discontent from within. Oppression of the putative Palestian "national" dissent is irrelevant in this context, and takes on the same status (perhaps, although only in the grossest misinterpretation of international law) as Kurdish dissent in Syria, Turkey, Iraq, Armenia, Azerbaijan and Iran. ... I can't help noticing however, that there are no articles on Syrian fascism, Turkish fascism, Iraqi fascism, Armenian fascism, Azerbaijani fascism or Iranian fascism--articles for which, in every case, there is much greater encyclopedic foundation. This leads me to the almost inescapable conclusion that whoever created this article holds Israel and Jews to impossibly higher moral and legal standards than those to which they hold Christians and Muslims, indeed, that they are trying to prey upon an obscene sort of lexical intellectual dishonesty in order to spread their own personal views and hatred against Jews beyond the limited scope to which they are presently privy.

(3) "engages in severe economic and social regimentation": Nothing about Jews as a whole, nor about Judaism as a religion, lifestyle or worldview, nor even about Jewish predominance in Israel (which I assume is the source of the major gripe of the miniminded person who created this article) can even remotely be described as fomenting, supporting or promoting "severe economic and social regimentation". Judaism as a religion tirelessly condemns social stratification, on whatever basis. Israel is the only country that is even remotely democratic (with the marginal exception of Turkey) in not only the Middle East, but throughout what the Muslims like to think of nostalgically (and through the perpetuation of historical ignorance) as "darussalam". In any case, the perception among so many Jewhaters that Jews are "rich" and that it's as a result of "Jewish greed", let me spell it out for you: YOU ARE WRONG. While perhaps prominent Jews are rich, or while more rich people are Jews than non-Jews, the vast majority of Jews are, like me, POVERTY STRICKEN, depending on the charity of the so-called "rich Jews" to get by from day to day. Also, if you study charitable donations, you'll find that Jews are far more generous in their donations, as a proportion of the population, than non-Jews, not only to Jewish charities, but (sometimes to the gross detriment of Jewish-oriented charitable organizations) to non-Jewish charities. Let me be as POV about this as possible: YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT.

(4) "engages in corporatism": The only portions of the Jewish population with any power to do so that could ever be accused of "engaging in corporatism" are the socialists who founded the kibutzim...and the extent of their interests in engaging in such corporatism were limited to their individual kibutzim. That said, a number of Jews, some of them quite noteworthy or even famous, have wished to do such things on a grand scale...but they have done so not as Jews, but as socialists who happened to be Jews. With such a tenuous relationship, I fail to see how the article can stand on supposed merits all its own without the existence of articles on Sinofascism, Russofascism, Germofascism, Francofascism, Norgefascism, Danofascism, Svecofascism, Spanofascism, Italofascism, Wallacofascism, Bulgarofascism, Magyarifascism, Czechofascism, and any number of other -fascisms.

(5)"implements totalitarianism": This is almost ludicrous. Anyone who knows anything about the situation in Israel, beyond the unceasing propaganda spewed by CNN and the ISM and their ilk, knows that the only totalitarianism implemented by Jews, is in Israel, and there, it is implemented against Jews. This is, of course, the one point on which Judeofascism has a leg to stand as a legitimate term...but ironically, the people who like to fondle the term like a starving kitten in need of attention think it means totalitarianism against non-Jews...which is the exact opposite of what is required to give the term "Judeofascism" any legitimate currency. Small minds, of course, are wont to latch onto any small crust of legitimacy, no matter how moldy, in this case, their arguements are truly rotten—displaying in full view that their actual agenda is Jewhatred, not any legitimate gripe against Jews...and in so doing, they undermine every legitimate criticism of Israel and Israeli policy wrt the so-called "Palestinians".

That said, I think someone should nominate Islamofascism for deletion as well, a debate into which I'll happily insert my 2 agorot.

Tomer ^TALK 07:31, Apr 18, 2005 (UTC)

• Delete Non-notable neologism. --Mrfixter 11:47, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)
• Delete Neologism created exclusively to counter Islamofascism. Tone of page is POV.--Briangotts 15:02, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)
• Delete Neologism, and we should be careful about having artilces on ethnic slurs that are themselves slurs. Slrubenstein | Talk 15:51, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)
• Delete. Neologism. No evidence provided of significant real use. Dpbsmith (talk) 23:32, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)
• delete this if you will Yuckfoo 06:36, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
• Merge and redirect to list of political epithets --AladdinSE 09:16, Apr 19, 2005 (UTC)
• delete with no-redirect Where does this end? Islamofascism -Christofascism -Anglofascism -Eurofascism -liberalfascism -Wikifascism -Francofascism - .... ?? --Doc Glasgow 19:00, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
• Delete - Non-notable neologism - Redirect to List of political epithets and Protect, as El C suggested - prevents the page from being recreated, so we avoid the Jewish ethnocentrism debacle from replaying itself. (Better yet, delete List of political epithets, List of ethnic slurs and a dozen other inherently offensive articles). Guettarda 20:48, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
• Delete Ejrrjs | What? 23:02, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
• Delete a really stupid and misleading neologism. Wikipedia does not exist to establish counterpoints that are not widely represented in the real world. —Seselwa 23:49, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
• Delete Neologism, minor use. ObsidianOrder 03:10, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
• Delete. Term invented here. Pavel Vozenilek 02:13, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
• Delete Deeply bogus, pseudo-poli-sci rhetorical arrow. BrandonYusufToropov 15:12, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
• Delete Term invented for Wikipedia probably Chunkyhoyo 12:30, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)

  User:Chunkyhoyo is a sockpuppet, just compare his user page to that of User:UDoN't!wAn* He has just committed acts of vandalism on a number of articles. --Chammy Koala 13:50, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)

This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like some other VfD subpages, is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion, or the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages. Please do not edit this page.