The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was redirect to Companion (Doctor Who)#Fifth Doctor. As an ATD. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 19:48, 6 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Kamelion[edit]

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A lot of Dr. Who characters are notable, but this one seems to be rather WP:FANCRUFTy, failing WP:GNG. A robot that appeared only in one to four episodes, depending on how we count and how generous we are with recap footage. No reception section, my BEFORE failed to find anything significant. What little coverage I could find is a plot summary, and the reception, well, to quote [1] "due to his lack of screen time... we never fot to see any real growth in Kamelion". I suggest redirecting to Companion_(Doctor_Who)#List_of_companions_on_television. Another redirect option would be one of the episodes they appeared in (this resembles very much the case of Craig Owens (Doctor Who), another DW side character who appeared only in two episodes). _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 10:12, 21 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Fictional elements, Science fiction and fantasy, Television, and United Kingdom. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 10:12, 21 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Nearly all the sources listed are just lists of Dr. Who characters and is not about the robot specifically. So I am leaning Delete. Roost^T_C(Please ping me) 15:10, 21 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Delete sources appear to be passing mentions that fail WP:SIGCOV, or heavily plot details that fail WP:NOTPLOT. Jontesta (talk) 03:33, 22 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Comment sourcing cannot fail WP:NOTPLOT, which reflects only on how we present articles about fictional topics. Jclemens (talk) 06:34, 22 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Comment sourcing can fail WP:NOTPLOT if there are no reliable sources that provide any significant non-plot information. That is the case here. Jontesta (talk) 23:26, 25 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Keep and Comment - The claim Kamelion "appeared only in one to four episodes" is misleading. The character first appears in the two part story The King's Demons, though it is episode two before we discover that the character we assumed to be King John is actually Kamelion. Kamelion is then a major character in Planet of Fire which is four episodes long and features the character's death. However in episode four of The Caves of Androzani Kamelion makes a cameo appearance when the Doctor is dying. This was not a flashback, but new audio recorded by Gerald Flood. This makes 7 episodes the character was in, as well as also featuring in a deleted scene (available on the DVD release) of part one of The Awakening. This is actually more episodes than some companions, notably Katarina. The character also plays a major role in a couple of the spin-off novels and other expanded media and is covered in a number of Doctor Who reference works. In addition at the time there was press interest in a "real" robot being used in Doctor Who. Much of the reference coverage relates to this (and to the failure of this experiment to work). Dunarc (talk) 21:23, 22 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Dunarc Can you provide reliable sources that meet SIGCOV and back up your claims? _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 02:21, 23 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I'll see what I can dig out. Dunarc (talk) 19:55, 23 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
As a start there is some coverage in David J Howe and Mark Stammers book "Doctor Who Companions" Virgin Publishing, 1995, Howe, Stammers and Walker "Doctor Who The Eighties" Virgin Publishing, 1996, Peter Haining "The Nine Lives of Doctor Who" Headline, 1999 and Calvin Scott and Mark Wright "Whoology" BBC Books, 2013. I am sure there is more in other Doctor Who reference books that I do not have to hand presently, as I have definitely read about press coverage.

It is worth noting as an aside that his two main stories were released as BBC DVD box set entitled "Kamelion Tales Box Set: The King's Demons / Planet of Fire" and a Big Finish story named after him "The Kamelion Empire"

He turns up in most newspaper articles that mention Doctor Who companions eg is listed and briefly described in this recent Radio Times article on all the Doctor's companions https://www.radiotimes.com/tv/sci-fi/doctor-who-companions-in-order/ this from the Guardian https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/tvandradioblog/2014/feb/25/doctor-who-male-companions-samuel-anderson-danny-pink and this from the Telegraph https://s.telegraph.co.uk/graphics/projects/doctor-who/ but this is probably not enough for significant coverage although would perhaps suggest the character as wider awareness than might be assumed. Dunarc (talk) 20:33, 23 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The issue is whether the coverage is enough for stand-alone article? As all I saw were mentions in passing, few sentences here and there, I think redirecting to the list would be best. Maybe merge, since there are now some refs for the "Behind the scenes" (about the robot breaking, etc.). Although if anyone can cobble something more, particularly about reception, that's better than what I found (quote from OP: "due to his lack of screen time... we never fot to see any real growth in Kamelion"), maybe we could save this. But right now all we have is analysis saying he has not been analysed, and some semi-trivia about the robot breaking down on the set. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 04:40, 24 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I fully appreciate what you are saying. I'll have another little dig to see if I can find anything else, but if nothing turns up, I would not be strongly opposed to some sort of redirect as you suggest, particularly if some detail of the character from the above coverage could be included there. Dunarc (talk) 20:30, 24 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
There is some other web stuff, but not really reliable sources. I understand there was a 15 minute mini-documentary on Kamelion made for The King's Demons DVD release which includes the story of how the robot was created and pitched to Doctor Who, but I do not have access to it. Dunarc (talk) 23:55, 25 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Dunarc One could also question whether such a documentary would be independent; GNG requires independent sources. In-house/official documentaries etc. don't really help in estabilishing notability (although they are of course fine to cite for particular facts; they are reliable, just not independent). _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 05:03, 26 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
That is a fair point given that it would be made to attract people to buy the DVD. I only wondered if it might give an idea of sources for media coverage. Dunarc (talk) 20:35, 26 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Dunarc Given the relist, just wondering if you are still on the keep side, or would you prefer a redirect as suggested below? _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 02:38, 30 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Piotrus The consensus seems to be for redirect and as I do not strongly disagree and no other sources have turned up, I think that is the best way forward. Dunarc (talk) 21:38, 30 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Dunarc True, but I do wonder if we could save some content by merging it somewhere? _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 02:40, 1 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I do wonder if in the list section at Companion (Doctor Who) we could add something under the Fifth Doctor box? Dunarc (talk) 21:47, 1 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Dunarc Probably the best idea. Would you give it a stab? _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 02:59, 2 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I'll give it a go Dunarc (talk) 21:13, 2 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Piotrus I have put something there now which I think covers the main points. Feel free to edit or suggest changes. Dunarc (talk) 21:49, 2 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Piotrus - It was reverted so I think it's case of back to the drawing board. Dunarc (talk) 23:37, 2 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Redirect to Companion (Doctor Who)#Fifth Doctor. I agree that it doesn't appear Kamelion has significant coverage outside of the context of being one of many companions in the show. I think this is the most suitable redirect target because it has a link to the two serials that he features in (plus a footnote mentioning his cameo in The Caves of Androzani). The only important out-of-universe info in the article is about how they couldn't get the prop to work, and that info is already included in the articles for the relevant serials (The King's Demons and The Awakening). Open to changing my !vote if more sources come up. OliveYouBean (talk) 10:01, 25 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Delete: I don't see significant coverage for this that would pass the WP:GNG. Shooterwalker (talk) 18:37, 28 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Relisting for a clearer consensus. BD2412 T 19:33, 29 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, ~~~~<noinclude></noinclude>

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.