The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. - Bobet 13:52, 2 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Kuririn[edit]

Kuririn (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)

Page has barely two references; perhaps the character is notable but there isn't enough any out-of-universe information to apply for him. Merge to List of Earthlings in Dragon Ball#Kuririn. Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 02:41, 24 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep One of the more notable anime characters and probably third most in DBZ (after Goku and Vegeta). Rename to his official English name of Krillin though. For far too long the members of the DBZ Wikiproject have thought that they are allowed to ignor policies and guidelines and use the English translation of characters names rather than their actual English name (as required). It's the reason I stopped editing Dragon Ball related articles. TJ Spyke 05:33, 24 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment The real problem is that Kuririn has no real life sources, and this article will continue to remain like that since there are none whatsoever. Who will take the time to place any references to the article? Obviously, no one cares. Also, WP:WPDB does not ignore any guidelines or policies, here they are right here. Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits)
• I know what they say, but they do ignore guidelines and policies when it comes to the names used for characters. In all move requests, they use numbers to get move requests done the way they want. TJ Spyke 23:49, 24 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

15:13, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Anime and manga-related deletions. — Duane543 16:15, 24 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep, or at least do a real merge (and not the deletion in all but name sort of thing certain editors are infamous for). Strangely, I do not remember "no one cares" being anywhere in WP:DELETION. --Gwern (contribs) 16:16 24 October 2007 (GMT)
• Strong Keep per being a central character to the series he is in. Puns could be considered for out of universe. As well as the references in his character to monks. DBZROCKSIts over 9000!!! 19:05, 24 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Gwern, the comment about him was unnecessary. This subject of this article is not notable, and should not have an article. I'm not sure the best place to merge this to would be, but List of Earthlings in Dragon Ball seems good at first sight. So redirect the article, and people who are knowledgeable and care can merge as they see fit. i ^said 00:15, 25 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • I, you are correct it was not necessary to name names there. But I regard their sort of merge as not much better than a delete; I also believe such merges make a mockery of the other editors' good faith expectation that a merge will actually be done and not be (ab)used as a convenient way to remove material on the sly. --Gwern (contribs) 19:00 25 October 2007 (GMT)
    • The name wasn't so important as the comment. TTN has not participated in this dicussion; referencing him is not neccesary. But people who don't care about a topic aren't the best ones to do a merge. People who care should. If the result of this is to merge, anyone can do it, but no one is required. It is just redirected until someone who cares merges information. i ^said 23:18, 25 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep AfD is not the venue for article cleanup or merger discussions. --Farix (Talk) 11:31, 26 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete This article is not a cleanup candidate, it is a 24-carat AfD. It has no primary sources, which alone justifies its nomination. Furthermore, there are no reliable secondary sources to demonstrate notability, nor have any come forward.--Gavin Collins 13:33, 26 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete or Redirect The lack of primary or secondary sources is the real issue. - Ukulele 19:53, 26 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep Seems the Lord dislikes DBZ characters having their own pages. There has to be secondary sources on Krillin, he is a central character to a very popular anime. Viperix 21:08, 27 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete per Gavin Collins and Ukulele. No sources at all. Doctorfluffy 22:31, 27 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment doesn't matter how many keeps this page gets. Per WP:VERIFY policy, "Editors should provide a reliable source for quotations and for any material that is challenged or is likely to be challenged, or it may be removed." Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 21:47, 30 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment If refs are all that is needed, this AFD can be stopped now, as I can easily ref most or all of the article. DBZROCKSIts over 9000!!! 21:49, 30 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Well do so, and it may alleviate the concerns here. However, until this is done, we have no way of knowing if the refs will do so. i ^(talk) 23:00, 30 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Well I am still afraid that it will be deleted and I would have wasted 2+ hours of my life. DBZROCKSIts over 9000!!! 23:46, 30 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Speedy Keep- Lord dislikes them getting their own pages, but since this is the first nomination I will explain this keep in more depth than previous "see previous reasons". This is not OR, of which he has a bizarre understanding, and notability cannot be disputed. However, of all the DBZ characters, Krillin is pretty firmly in the notability section. He has been in basically every manga I believe as a key character. DBZ is a huge franchise, see the numbers thrown around in his previous Bulma and Roshi AfD's, and Krillin has more than enough real world notability from the show to exist on his own.JJJ999 01:15, 31 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • I have to add that LS's arguments, aside from being bizarre, are ridiculously aggressive and basically wrong. The argument about sources is completely irrelevant, it would be like arguing that an article on President Bush should go because it lacked sources... since it requires almost zero effort to find real world notablility on a single google search, it is baffling that he makes these assertions. the answer is simply to add sources, not delete the article.JJJ999 09:44, 31 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• This is not a speedy keep candidate; it is a legitimate AfD. This article, without sources, is original research, by definition. I dispute notability, as he does not have notability by our standards, so arbitrarily saying he is firmly notable without any real-world sources is just as "basically wrong" as you say the nom's are. If you seem to think that it would be cake to source this article, then by all means do so; until then, however, it does not meet WP standards for inclusion. i ^(talk) 13:33, 31 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• I haven't been editing long, and even I know this is a silly line of argument. "Real world notability" does not mean Krillin had to live in our world and become Karate Champion at the Olympics, as you effectively infer, it just means he has significant notability as a fictional character, like other fictional characters who get their own pages. 5 seconds of google search confirms what I already knew, why is this prima facie assumption wrong? If you reply with another generalistic assertion like "lacks RS" I'll know I don't need to bother to reply.JJJ999 01:36, 1 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• I did not say he had to be a real person. I said he has to have notability outside of the fictional universe he lives in (the real world). Not that he is notable within his own universe. We're not discussing other pages that have their own article. And if you can give us some sources from that google search that proves he is notable in this world, and add them, then this article can be kept. Until then, it should be deleted. i ^(talk) 02:23, 1 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

There are 370,000 google hits for Krillin...he is among the main characters of a franchise than has spanned decades, sells millions of toys, hundreds of millions of books, his character is discussed on Amazon.com or movie/TV review sites like this (http://www.amazon.com/review/RW2YWW4BM0VED) at least as much as your standard character. While I doubt the BBC news has ever featured a "How awesome is Krillin" interview, it becomes obvious the character is noteworthy when giving even the most casual observation to these facts. If what you want is a news article "why Krillin rules", you will not be satisfied, but you would likewise not be satisfied for almost every other fictional character, from Indiana Jones to Buzz Lightyear. This is not the accepted standard for notability on wikipedia, the fact is he is notable because he has exposure and noteworthiness/fame among millions upon millions of people. This is not complicated, you seem to have some agenda for making it so...JJJ999 05:12, 1 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It is the accepted standard for notability, read the criteria. Being popular, famous or often talked about does not necessarily make someting WP-notable. Significant coverage by reliable, independant sources does. You keep citing the thousands of things on him that make him notable, I have yet to see one. The article you linked is about a movie he starred in, not him. And it's not a reliable source at any rate. i ^(talk) 05:24, 1 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• The way you have interpreted that is totally at odds with the way it has been interpreted by the overwhelming majority of wikipedians. Your analysis would render untold thousands of subjects on wikipedia now deleted, needless to say I don't agree, and I think what is happening with other articles IS relevant as far as finding the standard for this debate goes.JJJ999 09:51, 1 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• While there are many wikipedians who agree with the inclusionist view of the notability guideline, there is a significant who agree with a more deletionist, and thus it is not correct to say the "overwhelming majority". And yes, I do think thousands of fiction-related articles should go. I just don't have the desire to AfD them all. As I see some that have been, I comment. Hence this duscussion. And we can compare other articles yes, but the fact that other articles that may or may not be similar have articles has no bearing whatsoever on this discussion. i ^(talk) 22:29, 1 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Saying that Krillin has no real world notability is exactly like saying that Bush has no real world notability. Both saying it and believing it would be daft. I searched for under a minute and found a "real world" article that includes Krillin and speaks to his notability (http://www.brownsvilleherald.com/news/shimakon_80909___article.html/convention_anime.html). A longer search would produce more results. If he is so un-notable, why would the guy who voiced him be signing autographs? Viperix 09:22, 2 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• P.S. I found another in a couple more minutes. (http://www.animatedbliss.com/FORUM/forum_posts.asp?TID=3187), I am not going to continue going through the endless piles of news articles found in a news article search and weeding out the good ones, just be assured sources do exist. Viperix 09:30, 2 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.