The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was The consensus in this discussion is in favour of deleting Left-wing insurgency in Greece. As far as I can tell, however, no consensus has formed in respect of Timeline of the Left-wing insurgency in Greece.. $Salvio$ ^{Let's talk about it!} 15:49, 7 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Left-wing insurgency in Greece[edit]

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WP:OR; Greece has a problem of left-wing terrorism and violence, but an "insurgency" it is not, as others have noted in the talk page. This term not only magnifies a problem but suggests a coherent phenomenon, where there is none. 17N and its emulators are not the same as the anarchists setting fire to cars during police clashes, and they are entirely different from the 2008 riots. I propose deleting the main article, Left-wing insurgency in Greece, and moving Timeline of the Left-wing insurgency in Greece to List of left-wing terrorist attacks in Greece as suggested by CentreLeftRight in the talk page. Constantine ✍ 16:08, 30 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Greece-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU^(T) 17:36, 30 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Delete "Insurgency" is a very serious claim that implies an active, shooting conflict between the government and leftist groups, which obviously isn't the case here. This article is a violation of WP:NPOV and WP:OR. We would've seen mainstream coverage of this if leftists and the Greek government were in a state of war. – FenixFeather ^{(talk)(Contribs)} 18:28, 30 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Per FenixFeather. ——Chalk19 (talk) 12:17, 31 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Politics-related deletion discussions. Tyw7 (🗣️ Talk) — If (reply) then (ping me) 19:44, 31 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Events-related deletion discussions. Tyw7 (🗣️ Talk) — If (reply) then (ping me) 19:45, 31 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. WP:NOTNEWS and Appears to be original research. Ajf773 (talk) 20:08, 31 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I have just added several sources to the page, and there are plenty more out there if anyone wants to expand the article.XavierGreen (talk) 02:30, 3 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Delete As per nom.TH1980 (talk) 01:30, 1 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Keep I disagree, an "Insurgency" can be on a low-scall level of conflict too, there is a resistance against the Govermnent to overthrow the Govermnent and establishing a new left govermnent. In January this year I asked on the List of ongoing armed conflicts page or the "conflict" is a real "conflict" two members @Greyshark09: and @XavierGreen: described it as a really low "Insurgency" [1] this is not the same like ISIL in France which is described as a terror the there is a deference between acting like a terror organisation and being claimed as a terror organisation by a govermnent. CPA-5 (talk) 19:04, 1 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

There is violence, even endemic, but this is not necessarily an insurgency, per the reasons mentioned above: an insurgency is usually understood as a low-level rebellion or civil war, and this is definitely not the case in Greece. With 17N you might have had some reason to call it "urban guerrilla", but even then Greece witnessed nothing like the campaigns by RAF or the Red Brigades. At any rate, we as Wikipedians are not qualified to determine what sort of conflict this is; hence the WP:OR designation. Find WP:RS that call this an "insurgency", and you are on far safer ground. Constantine ✍ 19:37, 1 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

There are organized militant groups engaged in conflict against the government with armed force, it is an insurgency albeit a low level one.XavierGreen (talk) 02:21, 3 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

You have a good point maybe 17N and ELA can be indeed call "urban guerrilla". Which is in the conflict region but what about the anarchist groups like SPF or EA? The anarchist groups are violent too (but not that active and deadly as 17N and ELA were). The groups don't attack civilians like ISIL or al-Qaida would do they attack everyone who're capitalists, nationalists and Greek pro-govermnent. Of cource every rebel group can be called as a terrorist group, because there is no commonly accepted definition of "terrorism". CPA-5 (talk) 19:38, 2 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Delete: fails WP:OR; not suitable for inclusion at this time. K.e.coffman (talk) 21:18, 1 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I have just added several sources to the page.XavierGreen (talk) 02:30, 3 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - I'm of two minds here. On the one hand, there is an on-going string of connected radical left-wing acts of violence in Greece (ranging from very violent and widespread street rioting, to the occasional attack) - sourcing for these incidents and their relatedness is available. On the other hand, I'm not sure insurgency is the correct term (though I'm not sure what is - so that's really a move discussion issue) and the present article really just describes the 2008 Greek riots (notable riots, followed by other notable riots throughout the Greek debt crisis) - so I can see the case for WP:TNT. The topic itself could be developed into a proper article.Icewhiz (talk) 07:07, 2 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - There is and has been a low intensity left wing insurgency in greece for decades, there are active militant groups opposing the greek government through armed conflict, that is the very definition of an insurgency.XavierGreen (talk) 02:10, 3 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Week Keep - need to see more sources about "insurgency" and "insurgents" to be sure.GreyShark (dibra) 09:24, 3 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Delete - after looking through most of the sources and article content, to only conclusion I can come to is that this article is a blatant violation of WP:OR and WP:SYNTH. Most of the sources XavierGreen's claims to have added are either irrelevant to the topic on hand or otherwise WP:PRIMARY. Most of the incidents listed at Timeline of the Left-wing insurgency in Greece are minor or unnoteworthy events excluding those pertaining to the 2008 Greek riots. There are many instances of people from the far-left or far-right making threats or being arrested in nations such as the United States, Canada, Italy, Germany etc. but it would be a stretch to say there is an active insurgency in these countries. Delete and merge relevant content (if any) to Terrorism in Greece. Inter&anthro (talk) 03:39, 4 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Several of the sources i added are secondary sources, and all of them are relevant to the topic and support the information that i added to the article. There are whole books on this subject, two of which i've used as sources. There are active militant groups engaged in conflict with the Greek government through armed force, that falls right in line with definition of the word insurgency. Several of 17N's attacks are certaintly notable, given that they killed the CIA station chief in Greece and several Greek politicians.XavierGreen (talk) 19:41, 4 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Let's look at these sources then. This is little more than a list of events from what looks like a n amateur historian site. Also the last event listed was in 2002. This might be your strongest source but it is little more than a vague overview, and does not cite any specific events aside from relativly minor bank robberies and threats, which happen in many countries. This pertains only to Richard Welch, and looks more like an obituary and a primary source. This refers only to the Revolutionary Struggle, and makes no mention of a wider insurgency. This is the same as the above. Inter&anthro (talk) 03:19, 5 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The first source was not one i've added, the two books deal extensively with left wing greek militant groups, one of them, Inside Greek Terrorism by George Kassimeris, provides a good history of all of the relevant groups and the insurgency in general from its start in the 1970's to the present day.XavierGreen (talk) 13:53, 5 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I wasn't able to view all the pages of the books online, but from what I can see they only mention the Revolutionary Organization 17 November and Revolutionary People's Struggle in any great detail. There is not much to suggest that they are actively raging an active insurgency against the Greek government. There are groups such as the Black Liberation Army, Black Guerrilla Family, Black Riders Liberation Party, New Black Panther Party etc. but I would call it a strech to say that there is an active African-American insurgency against the government in the United States. I could go on to list a number of left-wing and right-wing groups from a number of countries but per WP:BEANS I won't. Just because there are groups that hold radical views and have committed acts of violence does not equal an having an active insurgency. Inter&anthro (talk) 20:40, 5 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Delete, obviously WP:OR. And can we please include that Timeline of the Left-wing insurgency in Greece subarticle right away, or do we have to drag that through yet another AfD? Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:32, 4 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.