The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. BJ^Talk 01:30, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

List of Chronicles of the Sword characters[edit]

List of Chronicles of the Sword characters (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View log)

Subject matter is of a very limited scope and has no discussion in third party material. The characters that appear as bonus characters in Soulcalibur 3 can be more effectively covered in a single paragraph. Kung Fu Man (talk) 00:16, 5 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Note: This debate has been added to the list of video game related deletions. Kung Fu Man (talk) 00:21, 5 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions. —Cliff smith ^talk 17:14, 5 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep per Wikipedia:Five pillars (notability to a real-world audience, unoriginal research, consistent with a “specialized encyclopedia” concerning verifiable fictional topics with importance in the real world) and Wikipedia:Lists (discriminate, encyclopedic, maintainable, notable, unoriginal, and verifiable). --Happy editing! Sincerely, Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles^Tally-ho! 01:37, 5 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• delete no reliable secondary sources. Jessi1989 (talk) 01:41, 5 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • If you do a search for reviews of the games, you do get some reliable secondary source comments on this mode and its characters and they are certainly verifiable through the strategy guide (yes, I know some consider those primary sources, but not all games have published guides and citing guides no more makes us a guide than citing CNN makes us the news). --Happy editing! Sincerely, Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles^Tally-ho! 01:57, 5 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • sorry but anyone that understands what "primary source" means would certainly consider a strategy guide published by the subject game's publishers to be a primary source. if cnn had a story about cnn then we couldn't cite it as a secondary source for the cnn article. this is exactly the same argument you posed in the lathander afd, trying to use books published by wizards of the coast to reference an article about a character from a game made by wizards of the coast. this is the why wp:v explicitly mentions secondary sources. if you know of any actual secondary sources, not affiliated with this article's subject, then please link to them there. i really don't want to sound rude but it seems that either you don't know the difference between primary and secondary sources, or you don't understand why it's important not to use primary sources... Jessi1989 (talk) 17:44, 5 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • Historically, sub and spinoff articles in published encyclopedias have relied on primary sources. The Academy of Motion Pictures, Arts, and Sciences list of Oscar winners is a reliable primary source that is almanacic in nature, just as a guide is a reliable source for a list of characters of this nature and a list of characters is as notable to an article on a video game as a list of winners is to an article on a contest. But even so, you get some out of universe comments in reviews of the games that discuss this mode. --Happy editing! Sincerely, Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles^Tally-ho! 19:43, 5 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• Transwiki to SoulCalibur Wikia, Merge and Redirect to List of characters in the Soul series. Those characters are from minigame of SoulCalibur (not main game mode, your notability is doubtful), and the Wikipedia is not game guide. Zero Kitsune (talk) 03:52, 5 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• Transwiki per above and then delete here — where are the verifiable, third-party sources? MuZemike (talk) 05:28, 5 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Do a search of reviews of the game and you'll find some references. --Happy editing! Sincerely, Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles^Tally-ho! 19:43, 5 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • It's ultimately up to the people mainly involved in the article to do that, not mine. I have better stuff to do than clean up others' messes. MuZemike (talk) 21:35, 5 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • Deleting the article prevents them from being able to carefully take their time doing just that. --Happy editing! Sincerely, Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles^Tally-ho! 02:17, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
        • They still have five days to add the vital information before the AfD closes. If the references are that easy to find, it shouldn't take five days to shoehorn in a few. -- Jelly Soup (talk) 20:35, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
          • Wikipedia does not have a deadline and because we know it is verifiable and therefore not a hoax or libelous, there's no urgent need to delete. --Happy editing! Sincerely, Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles^Tally-ho! 22:07, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
            • Wikipedia as a whole may not have a deadline, but an AfD does. If it's verifiable, then the sources can easily be added before the AfD deadline comes around. If you feel that there are sufficient sources, shows us where they are, add them to the article and stop with the devils advocate arguments. -- Jelly Soup (talk) 23:12, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• Transwiki to SoulCalibur Wikia, where this stuff belongs, and delete on Wikipedia. It doesn't belong here, being a largely unsourced and indiscriminate accumulation of game guidey material. Reyk _YO! 21:27, 5 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • You mean entirely unsourced. MuZemike (talk) 21:35, 5 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Not anymore, it's not! Also, please note that this discriminate list of non-game guide information concerns characters that don't all only appear in just one aspect of Soul Calibur III. The article notes, for example, how Strife also appears as a NPC in Soul Calibur IV. In any event, I would argue that at least the playable characters who are covered on a couple pages on the published guide and at least ones like Strife who also appear in another game are merge and redirectable in some capacity.  :) --Happy editing! Sincerely, Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles^Tally-ho! 02:17, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • That doesn't count as third party though: the info you're putting references to can be referenced just as easily by the game itself. Also I'm questioning the Stife re-appearance: is there something citable saying that? Because it sounds like a lot of the random vandalism that some of the pages have suffered and gone unnoticed because it 'sounds' "genuine enough"--Kung Fu Man (talk) 02:24, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
        • Oh, I haven't gotten to the third party sources to put directly into the article yet. Let me finish doing what I can with the guide and then if I have some time I will also add some secondary source comments as well. One source at a time to work from though, please!  :) --Happy editing! Sincerely, Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles^Tally-ho! 02:29, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete. Plot summary and game guide material. No real-world context or importance. Doctorfluffy (robe and wizard hat) 17:03, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Which is of course not true. --Happy editing! Sincerely, Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles^Tally-ho! 21:55, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• Transwiki to the SoulCalibur Wiki and delete. Not notable, important, or referenced in the real-world. Content is more appropriate to a specialist wiki. And yes, LGRdC, I know you disagree. Stifle (talk) 21:21, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • WP:JNN is never a valid reason for deletion, especially when it isn't true as it is notable, important, and referenced in the real-world. --Happy editing! Sincerely, Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles^Tally-ho! 21:55, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Verified or true? MuZemike (talk) 00:19, 7 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • Verified. --Happy editing! Sincerely, Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles^Tally-ho! 16:35, 7 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Please note the top of that page, which says "This is an essay, a page containing the advice or opinions of one or more Wikipedia contributors. You may heed it or not, at your discretion." (my emphasis). As such, your point is incorrect — in future, may I suggest you use "WP:JNN is, in my opinion, not a valid reason for deletion"? Stifle (talk) 12:23, 7 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • Saying JNN in this case is wrong is not simply my opinion, because this subject is notable and therefore saying it is not notable is a falsehood. --Happy editing! Sincerely, Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles^Tally-ho! 16:35, 7 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
        • That's completely specious — JNN says "you shouldn't recommend deleting an article with no other reason than 'not notable'". It doesn't say "this subject is notable". Stifle (talk) 19:28, 7 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete — the minor characters of a single mode of a fighting game (not even the primary characters) don't need coverage. Excessive and unnecessary. sephiroth bcr ^(converse) 03:12, 7 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Update[edit]

• This necessary page has now been rescued. Also, many above have suggested it be transwikied. Has that in fact happened yet? I do not personally know how to transwiki, but I suggest it be done to at least The Soulcalibur Wiki. If someone has or does do that, please indicate as much here. --Happy editing! Sincerely, Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles^Tally-ho! 16:35, 7 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

player's guides repeating direct facts one can see in the game does not equate to notability satisfaction LGRdC. Every reference you have isn't even discussing the characters: it's just saying what weapons they use or where to find them. Seriously, what the heck?--Kung Fu Man (talk) 16:41, 7 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Not all video game characters are published in game guides. At worst, this article is 1) transwikiable to the above indicated site and 2) merge and redirectable to List_of_characters_in_the_Soul_series#Bonus_characters. I see no reason why the article should be redlinked and not at least transwikied and redirected without deletion to the section of the other list that also mentions the bonus characters from this game for which I merged some of the references from this article. Moreover, the references I include on this page do not merely list the weapons and how to find them. If you look in the guide on the section of each chapter on Chronicles of the Sword, it verifies additional content cited in this article. --Happy editing! Sincerely, Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles^Tally-ho! 16:48, 7 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Delete: article is only sourced by primary sources and non-independent gameguides, thus failing to meet the WP:BURDEN of proof required to keep a Wikipedia article. If no reliable, third-party sources can be found for an article topic, Wikipedia should not have an article on it. Unfortunately for this article, it just does not belong in Wikipedia according to our policies. Randomran (talk) 21:58, 7 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete: If the only things citable here are what weapons they have and in what scenario they appear this blatantly fails our content guidelines (WP:VGSCOPE etc). Nifboy (talk) 13:53, 9 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.