The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Daniel (talk) 00:51, 4 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

List of cult video games[edit]

List of cult video games (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)

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Attempting to encapsulate what is wrong with this list and explain why it should be deleted is difficult. I have personally contributed to this list in the past but stopped because of issues I saw with it. In discussions off-wiki, other editors shared the same concerns I had, which is why I decided to nominate for deletion.

First it's important to understand that for a game to be included on the list, all that is required is for a reliable source to have called it a "cult" game or describe it as having a "cult following", using those exact words. It could be a trivial passing mention, doesn't matter. In practice, as long as the word "cult" is used describing a game, it has been considered fair for inclusion. This has resulted in lots of drive-by edits with people adding their favorite games because it was mentioned somewhere as a cult game.

The issue is: there is no solid definition of what a "cult video game" is, or what it means for a game to have a "cult following". Even the Wikipedia page for cult following doesn't seem to have a convincing definition. I'm not dismissing the claims by reliable sources that these games have cult followings; rather, I am saying that simply having a cult following does not create any meaningful relationship with another game that another source has also claimed to have a cult-following.

Let's look at the variety of games listed. You have games that were:

• Unpopular at release but grew a fanbase over time (Sweet Home, Shantae)
• Critically divisive (Killer7, God Hand)
• Commercially unsuccessful but critically praised (Snatcher, Beyond Good & Evil)
• Commercially and critically unsuccessful (Ribbit King, Doshin the Giant)
• Commercially and critically successful (yes somehow games like Xenogears, Dark Cloud, Destroy All Humans!, and Pokémon Snap are considered "cult" games by reliable sources)

Per WP:LISTN, a common reason lists are deemed notable is because they are "discussed as a group or set by independent reliable sources". You could argue that sources have published lists like "best cult games" etc. and you would right. This is why I made this long write up, because despite that, the issue remains: Why these games are considered cult games is not clear, so what you end up with is a list that serves no purpose and does not help the reader draw any meaningful conclusions. TarkusAB^talk/contrib 21:11, 27 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Video games-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 21:14, 27 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 21:14, 27 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• DELETE Per above, as well as the fact that the word "Cult" can mean very many things. Shrekxy64. 21:28, 27 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete — Despite my comment on the talk page supporting a restructure, the more I look at this page, the more I think it should just be deleted. Tarkus perfectly summed up my thoughts on why I dislike the sources used in just about every one of these entries, so I don't need to really go into it too much. Basically, sources are incredibly loose with what they define as a cult game, and most of the time they never go in-depth as to why they consider it a cult classic, or why that's a general opinion. I imagine users who would want to read a list like this are looking for games that never achieved much success but have a strong following. They are sure as hell not looking for random licensed games like Home Improvement: Power Tool Pursuit, games that are listed on List of video games considered the best, or small/niche franchises. Half of the time I see people edit this page, it's either removing bogus entries or naive editors trying to add passing mentions that go against consensus, which means the page is unstable. This list simply cannot be saved. Namcokid47 ^(Contribs) 21:40, 27 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep - The problem is encapsulated here by your use of "I dislike the sources" and "I imagine users". The clear central principle of Wikipedia is that reliable sources determine page content, not individual editor's opinions. If multiple reliable third party sources say a game is "cult" or has "a cult following" then that is a fact as far as Wikipedia is concerned - even if it results in thousands of entries like the cult film lists. This simply smacks of certain editors wanting to delete the page because they personally disagree with the games being added even when there have multiple reliable supporting sources - in the case of Sensible Soccer, of the three sources provided, one was the BBC and a second was subtitled "The Cult of Sensible Soccer". I notice there was absolutely no attempt to delete the page or to remove titles like Capcom's Strider or Bionic Commando which have a single far weaker source, but then those games happen to be favoured by certain editors. MrMajors (talk) 08:25, 28 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete - The sources listed here can be placed on their respective articles so, no real loss if this gets deleted to be honest... Roberth Martinez (talk) 22:48, 27 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Weak Keep but support Delete too. On the article's talk page, concurrent to this AFD, we're discussing a set of criterion needed to limit what can be added to this list, which I personally expect would nix 75% of the games on it, which would require far better sourcing since as the above !votes have already noted, its far too easy to find a hit on "cult video game" for many titles but only in passing. This almost would be a WP:TNT situation in that case, hence my support for deletion, but I'd rather see us better defined the inclusion metrics and cull down with impunity than delete outright. --Masem (t) 22:49, 27 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • (And while I would not include it in this AFD, I think we need to use the same critical eye to List of cult films (all 26+ subparts of that). --Masem (t) 22:57, 27 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Masem: The films list has been up for deletion before (three times, infact). I think there's a big difference between cult film and cult video game., however I don't play video games, so I might be talking out of my ZX81! Lugnuts ^{Fire Walk with Me} 07:35, 28 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete. As others have already said, the real problem here is that there is not a clear, objective definition of "cult." Without that kind of definition, this list is going to continue to be the subject of edit wars and lengthy talk page debates. Efforts at building consensus as to the definition of "cult" have thus far been, I would argue, inconclusive, to say nothing of the fact that other editors who have not participated in those discussions will likely have their own definitions. This is further borne out by the fact that many of the sources use different definitions as well. So, I think it may be time for this list to go away. DocFreeman24 (talk) 00:31, 28 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete. The phrase "cult following" is so overused by hack writers, and there are so many hack writers 'covering' video games, that the inclusion criteria is completely useless. And worse still, obscure-at-the-time games with fiercely loyal long-term followings like Dwarf Fortress still managed to not make the list. (To be clear : I'm not saying that we could improve the list by adding DF, I'm saying that the inclusion criteria is so meaningless, that even someone familiar with the topic could not predict which games made the list.) ApLundell (talk) 02:16, 28 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete Not much to add to the discussion. The issue here is that "cult" has no clear definition, which means the general topic of the list is unclear. Why is anything in particular on it "cult"? It becomes a mass list of any video game that any marginally reliable source ever, even once, called "cult", with zero context. Aside from that, LISTN to consider, are they discussed as a group? I found this enlightening, as one of the few sources in use that are a type of "top x cult games" leads with a paragraph talking about "what even is cult? we don't know, everyone has a different view, but here's our top 5 based on what we think it is." -- ferret (talk) 13:02, 28 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete what makes something a cult video game? Who defines what is and what is not such a game. It might be a concept that it is possible to make an article on, but there are not enough fixed, always agreed on definitions to make an actual list of it.John Pack Lambert (talk) 19:39, 28 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep Citing the failed deletion discussions of List of cult films is absolutely not WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS, they set an obvious precedentt. If List of cult films is sufficiently notable as proven in several discussions, then a list of cult video games is absolutely notable. Both should be nominated as a group if this is to be deleted._{ZXCVBNM (TALK)} 11:34, 29 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Complete disagreement. Different media with different levels of terminology usage and sourcing. That cult films survives does not act as a gate for cult video games to survive. It may be an indicator, but hardly an uncrossable line. -- ferret (talk) 12:54, 29 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed, it's not like it's used uniformly across all media. To use an extreme example, it's not like you'd use its use in film to justify a List of cult shoes or List of cult wrist watches. Sergecross73 msg me 15:49, 29 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

"Cult" has been used numerous times in reliable sources to describe games in exactly the same manner as films. I don't think it's an apples and oranges situation. This AfD seems like a WP:LEADER situation with no one truly digging into whether RS mention that video games are cult (they do: Earthbound being prime evidence)._{ZXCVBNM (TALK)} 20:31, 29 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Has anyone in this discussion claimed they don't? ApLundell (talk) 01:10, 30 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

And that would be a fine rationale if this were a debate on whether or not we should add the label to an individual article like Earthbound. Obviously occurrences of its use exists. (Humorously, I even found a source for my exaggerated watch example.) But this is an industry-spanning list we're debating here, and the problem is, as the nom outlines, that it's not used commonly or uniformly in definition in this industry. Sergecross73 msg me 23:09, 31 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete - per the well-rationed nom and Masem's comments regarding WP:TNT. Sergecross73 msg me 15:49, 29 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete - per the above. "cult" is such a nebulous term that it's completely useless. Nigej (talk) 19:32, 29 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete. The problem that I see is that the term "cult video game" is not well defined in reliable sources, thus making it impossible to provide an inclusion criteria that satisfies our list policies. There have been some noble attempts to define a set of criteria on the article talk page, but at the end of the day it is original research. This is markedly different from the "cult film" concept long defined in reliable sources. Indrian (talk) 08:59, 30 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Just a few days ago you were adamant that there was a "classic definition" which you were using to justify removing titles from the list. MrMajors (talk) 13:14, 30 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

As relates to film, sure. It's the best we have to go on for games, but it's not a perfect fit. Try not to take this so personally. Indrian (talk) 20:59, 30 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete. Haven't yet seen an authoritative source on what entails a cult video game, leaving the list ill-defined. --Jtalledo (talk) 12:35, 30 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete and don't create until the scope has been better described by WP:RS. NavjotSR (talk) 14:56, 30 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete per nom. Poorly defined/scoped, much unlike cult film. IceWelder [✉] 20:24, 30 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete these lists based on subjective qualities undermine the WP:NPOV of our encyclopedia. I'm sure that you can find a source or two that will say a game is any number of subjective qualities, including "cult". But synthesizing them to together into a list is misleading. At best, it will represent the viewpoint of several individual journalists on several different articles, and that's assuming they use the word "cult" in the same sense". It ultimately becomes filtered through the point of view of the editor who noticed it and hopes to make it seem more objective than it actually is. If we're going to make lists of games, they should be based around qualities that journalists widely agree upon. Things like platform, year, or genre. Jontesta (talk) 16:58, 31 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete: "Cult" is too subjective to be used in a list. Every fictional work has been called a "cult work" at least once. As noted above, there are even examples of "cult watches". Furthermore, "cult" means different things to different people. How can we maintain a list that relies on several different definitions of its defining term? ―Susmuffin ^Talk 19:41, 1 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete but open to re-creation: I think that "cult video games" is a potentially valid topic, but there's no denying that the sources are all over the board over what constitutes "cult", which makes the page a terrible smorgasbord— in fact I raised similar concerns on the Talk page last year. I applaud Masem's attempts to whip it into shape but I find myself agreeing that a long-term solution requires some TNT. — Kawnhr (talk) 22:08, 1 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Week Keep/Draftify. Fundametnally this list just needs far better sourcing requirements. Instead of one off hand mention that a game has a "cult following". Instead have 5 RSs be needed in order for it be considered "cult" or 1/2 in-depth articles about how the game has a cult following. Regards  Spy-cicle💥  ^Talk? 04:13, 3 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Should we apply that idea to this list, where each game would require 5 reliable, in-depth, independent sources that discuss its cult status at length, then that would cut out around 96% of the games listed here. Therefore, the list would just be deleted anyway for being way too short to even justify existing. Namcokid47 ^(Contribs) 04:46, 3 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    I see your point, but the sourcing I suggested would be less stringenet than 5 in-depth RS, rather either 1 or 2 in-depth RSs discusiing the "cult" following or 5 mentions in RSs that it has a cult following. Though that is no perfect sourcing requirement I think that could strike the balance of not having too many meaningless entries whilst also having enough to sustain a meaningful list. Regards  Spy-cicle💥  ^Talk? 10:54, 3 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete but allow draftification per Kawnhr. Agree with nom that, unlike movie journalism, simply relying on "a journalist source somewhere used the word cult" is not going to work considering how loosely the term is tossed around. I think that a recreation might be possible though, albeit with permanent semi-protection and a rigorous lockdown on random editors adding their own favorite games to this list. A recreated list would be shorter and use some additional criteria (even if the result was having to rename the list slightly) to get to some more strictly defined idea - obscure games (not a mainstream success) that retained a notable devoted fanbase (not just "somebody somewhere liked it", which is true of nearly every game). Stuff like Snatcher or Cho Aniki, not Xenogears. And maybe a separate section if need be for stuff like Earthbound, which might have been a cult game once but eventually got mainstream recognition thanks to Smash Bros. and the like. SnowFire (talk) 22:55, 3 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.