The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was merge to Flag. Arkyan 22:30, 4 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

List of largest flags[edit]

List of largest flags (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View log)

This is a pointless list, with no agreement on what constitutes a flag, which is being hijacked for political purposes. Harry the Dog WOOF 10:59, 30 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

When coming about the political status of the page, as you suggest, I wanted to create such vexilliologic list since Wikipedia harboured no such articles on great flags, but pretty irrelevant ones (at least for us, the rest of the World) like "list of the largest texas flags", and, having grown up next to the megaflag, knowing it was actually the world's biggest, I wanted to share it. Of course, the list remains expansible for anyone wishing to contribute to it, but, since the page's creation, we enjoyed only limited contribution from other fellow Wikipedians. My proposition would be to link it internally to the Flag article, so more people can contribute to it that way, thus we can take ourselves away from the political fight that happens around this very subject. --Eae1983 (talk) 21:46, 1 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

PS: Now Bunzo1980, I will also ask you to provide me proof of your accusations as "the author has been involved in similar situations where articles have been modified to promote certain political values"... Where exactly did you see this? This is some great accusation, that needs viable proof on your part, but anyways, I wonder, may you be actually the user Aee1980 (please note the name resemblance) that got blocked from editing Wikipedia, that is trying to take a "revenge"? And why on me anyways? Also, as GO-PCHS-NJROTC is pointing it out, this is leaning too much towards WP:IDONTLIKEIT, my point is that there is no such list in Wikipedia, and it is up to you fellow Wikipedians, to expand it and make it something viable. I am a busy person in real life and I have only created the vertebra of the article, you are all free to expand it as you wish. Deleting it would be too easy.

I also do not agree with the fact that this list is as relevant as the "List of one eyed horse thieves in Montana" as Vexilliology is a passion for some, that devote their lives to flags and emblems, as some devote to pets, for example. This list is for them, and for anyone who wants to expand. --Eae1983 (talk) 21:54, 1 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Are you changing your vote? If so you need to strike out your previous keep. It would simply be a matter of copying the table into its own section on the Flag page. However, since that page lists the Israeli flag as the world's largest, it wouldn't solve the problem, as one of those contradictory pieces of information would need to be removed (or qualified) and it would just sow the seeds of another edit war. Harry the Dog WOOF 14:10, 2 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Whatever we say, some people consider the TRNC flag as the largest, as some may consider it as "some graffiti over some dirt". Now edit war or not, we got two megaflags at hand, and we can not as you say "remove" any that simply. My idea would be to popularize the article, either by linking et to bigger articles as an internal link or by some similar way, so that more people can contribute to it, making it a healthier article, with many more entries. Again, please help me with all these, as I am the worst computer person. --Eae1983 (talk) 19:47, 2 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Harry, we can simply clarify in the flag article that the flag of Israel is the largest flag flown, while the TRNC flag is the largest painted flag. We could pick a better choice of wording, but I honestly don't see what's so hard about incorporating this info into the flag page. We could do this without making it contradictory, and then hopefully everyone will be happy. Khoikhoi 00:13, 3 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Now see, Khoi, you have proven my point. The israeli flag was never flown. It is on a hillside too! But it is officially recognised as the largest flag in the world, and the Turkish-Cypriot "flag" isn't even even mentioned in the article. I am sure there would be resistance to adding it since it hasn't been added already. Harry the Dog WOOF 05:30, 3 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I think the main resistance would be that Northern Cyprus is only recognized by one country. However, I am sure if this is brought up on the talk page first, and reliable sources are provided proving that the flag of Israel is the second-largest, then perhaps we can successfully integrate the material without any conflict at all. BTW, we could have something such as stating that Israel has the largest recognized flag, while the TRNC has the largest unrecognized flag. Khoikhoi 06:00, 3 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
How is an "unrecognised largest flag" encyclopaedic. Surely only the official largest flag has any encyclopaedic value, which is why the Turkish-Cypriot "flag" has never been included on the Flag page as the largest flag. Harry the Dog WOOF 06:42, 3 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
We have a Flags of unrecognized and partially recognized states article, so I'm not quite sure what you mean. Just because it hasn't been added yet doesn't mean it's wrong. Khoikhoi 07:00, 3 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
What I mean is that there is only one flag that is officially recognised as the largest, and that is the only one that has encyclopaedic merit. That's why the Turkish-Cypriot "flag" had not been added to the Flag page. Harry the Dog WOOF 07:27, 3 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
What I'm saying is that even if Guinness recognizes one flag, if we can find reliable enough sources contradicting this, then I believe it merits being mentioned in the article (we could mention both flags). If we can't, we don't mention it. It's that simple. Khoikhoi 07:32, 3 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Harry I do not get your point. Are we just going to ignore it because Guiness does not mention it? Well the flag is there, it does exist, and what is the point of an encyclopaedia if that very encyclopaedia ignores knowledge? --Eae1983 (talk) 07:52, 3 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Encyclopaedias are by nature selective. The main Flag article does not list this "flag" as the largest, and nor should it. Try Googling "World's largest flag" and see how many references to the Turkish Cypriot flag you find. The world consensus is that the Israeli flag is the biggest. Creating a bogus list to get around this is not the way to go. The place to mention the flag is on the Turkish Cypriot article. Harry the Dog WOOF 10:01, 3 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I still do think that "the world consensus" you are talking about is not by "selectivity" but by ignorance. If they knew the flag in Cyprus, things would be different. Also, dear Harry, please do not quote from Google or similar net search engines as they do not in any way represent an academic medium. Cheers! --Eae1983 (talk) 12:01, 3 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I see, so every source that contradicts you is invalid? Do you really believe that Guinness is unaware of this "flag"? You have shown your hand. Your purpose seems to be to promote this "flag" for your own reasons. If you really must do that, against the world consensus that the Israeli flag is the largest, mention it on the Turkish Cypriot page. Wikipedia doesn't need a bogus list for you to promote the "knowledge" of this flag to the world. Harry the Dog WOOF 12:09, 3 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
No you do not see. Google is not a source. Imagine how funny would it sound if you gave a paper in university or better, a Doctorate thesis, or even better, you write an encyclopaedia, and you quote a search engine's results. It would be nothing but ridiculous. If you don't believe me, just try it. Also, that list is not bogus, and I am not trying to promote my own agenda, I am just trying to promote the truth, the flag in Cyprus is bigger, believe it or not (although it is not even my flag). Yet again I agree that many people may consider the Israeli one as the biggest, since it is a textile flag, while the Cypriot one is not. Well who knows, maybe the Guiness institution is not aware of its existence, since makers of that flag never *asked* to be named the biggest, ie: no one never applied to Guiness concerning that fact. Also it is in a part of the world that is technically closed to the outside world, and it is for that very reason, hidden from most eyes. What I wanted to do here is to bring it to light. Cheers! --Eae1983 (talk) 12:51, 3 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Google allows you to find sources, of which there are none that back up your claim apart from the cypriot flag one. Harry the Dog WOOF 13:00, 3 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
None?? Well if I were to be non-academical as you are, and ran the search http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=tr-tr&q=biggest+flag+world&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8, what I see is one entry for the Cypriot Flag on the first page, 3 for Israel and the rest for the American flag. Now since americans have a greater access to the internet and their "superflag" returns more results on google, does that mean it is bigger? What about non-english sources, how will you find them using Google? what about this: http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:BmhDL7O7_bsJ:chypre.centerblog.net/2.html+plus+grand+drapeau+chypre&hl=tr&ct=clnk&cd=2&client=safari or this http://www.baronbaron.com/chypre/recit03.html or even better, if I run a search in Turkish (Dünyanın en büyük bayrağı - biggest flag in the world), I only get The Cyprus Flag in the first page (except 2 entries one listing Israel, the other supporting the claim of a Turkish football team, Beşiktaş to have unfurled the biggest flag in the wolrd), try it for yourself with http://www.google.com/search?q=Dünyanın+en+büyük+bayrağı&btnG=Ara&hl=tr&lr=&client=safari&rls=tr-tr&sa=2
Ah look what I found, an online editor http://members.tripod.com/kibrisevi/ozel/Bbayrak.htm that has documents that this flag was submitted for Guinness, but "was refused under Greek lobbying and pressure" you can see a copy of that there. Wait let's try in Greek: look at this http://www.bulgarmak.org/cyprus.htm (found on google.gr but a rather propaganda-ish site) or this http://www.yarisclub.gr/forum/showthread.php?t=3136 (which is actually a copy paste from a greek newspaper)... anyways what about the sources I am giving on that list? http://www.cyprusflag.net/trnc-flag.html do they not constitute a "source". Please know that they were also found off google.
I remain open for any of your questions may you have, but please do not accuse me of "promoting my agenda" since I am promoting only the truth. On the other hand I also can accuse you of having shown your hand, trying to mask truth. Cheers! --Eae1983 (talk) 14:01, 3 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
So Guinness is aware of it and decided not to include it. You have made my point. They take these issues very seriously, and so should Wikipedia. The truth is that the world's largest flag is the Israeli one. I have no agenda other than a better Wikipedia. I am neither Greek, Turkish, Cypriot nor Israeli. My concern is that Wikipedia should not fill up with lists that, far from promoting the truth, are simply used to push a political agenda. Harry the Dog WOOF 14:15, 3 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
No Harry it is NOT the truth, it is Guinness' truth. They also have to abide by a political agenda and have limits like not including non recognized countries, whereas Wikipedia has not. The truth is that the Cypriot flag is at least 1.5x bigger than the Israeli one, and you are making yourself a fool trying to ignore it. Do you also have a political agenda like Guinness? I am starting to suspect so. Why all that hatred against a flag that is factually the biggest of the world? You are always invited to measure both if you do not believe. As in french they say "appeller un chat un chat" you should call a cat "a cat", instead of loosing your time trying to distort truth. Just accept that although it is not recognized by the Guinness Institute, it is de facto THE biggest flag, in the same way as Nagorno -Karabağ is not a recognized state, but the facto, it is, possessing a military force a police force, a capital and institutions, and by doing so has an article in Wikipedia. look it up here: Nagorno-Karabakh Republic why should that flag be excluded from its home, the Flag article?. Now please, will you make us both a big favor and stop to lose our time for idiotic issues as this one, we should be out with girls now. --Eae1983 (talk) 14:31, 3 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
And the world seems to agree with Guinness since the only sources mentioning this "flag" as the largest are Turkish or Turkish-Cypriot ones as far as I can see. Clearly you have an agenda (and have been canvassing), as even Khoi notes on your talk page (Your new messages were basically a link to your original message (located at User talk:Izmir lee). In it, you said, "Hi, an article, List of largest flags, containing the Northern Cyprus Flag on its top, was nominated for deletion, for reasons that are both obvious, and some others that are pretty dubious..." The fact that you pointed out that the Northern Cyprus flag is at the top seems to me that you're using it as a basis to convince them why the article should be kept). This "merge" proposal seems to have been cooked up between you (Well, first off, I could make a comment at the AfD saying why I think it should be merged. Then you can add your input there as well.). It is clear that you are not interested in improving Wikipedia with this article, but in pushing a political agenda. I have made a good faith AfD and will leave it for others to judge. Harry the Dog WOOF 14:42, 3 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I have been canvassing for help since I do not think in any way that these facts should be deleted, especially since they are being useful to people around the world. (look at http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080303122241AALY650 then talk, they have been using my article as a source and guess what, they are neither Turkish nor Turkish Cypriot) and since this article is encyclopedic, it points to facts. I do not know who you are to insert affirmations again like "And the world seems to agree with Guinness since the only sources mentioning this "flag" as the largest are Turkish or Turkish-Cypriot ones as far as I can see" (what is your source for that?) that look like affirmations from a high school student. I agree with you on one point, I have no other agenda than to improve the encyclopedic content in Wikipedia, and from my standpoint it is clear that you are not assuming good faith, trying relentlessly to go on with the deletion of a sourced fact, sourced mostly not as you say by Turkish or Turkish Cypriot facts (It seems clear that you did not even check the sources I gave you, how can I take you seriously?). Anyways, I am loosing my time with you, it is clear that your mind is not open enough to go past Western-Based institutions to define your understanding (whatever Guiness says is the ultimate truth, sure, and who are they? God? No human beings there?). I have to go to a party, and as of tomorrow, you are free to get that article deleted, I will make a copy of that table in the Flag article. This said, of course, you are free to delete any sourced info there, and face the consequences of it. Enjoy! --Eae1983 (talk) 15:13, 3 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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