The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus to delete, default to keep. After substantial consideration of the arguments presented, that's about all I can say, except that the principal question - at what height should the lists start? - appears to me to be less an encyclopedic fact in need of sourcing, but a matter requiring the community's editorial judgment, i.e., consensus and discussion. Policy is of little help here, as several people have noted. I suggest a half-year moratorium on any further deletion requests. Sandstein 07:18, 11 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

List of tall women, List of tall men[edit]

List of tall men (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
List of tall women (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)
(AfD1|AfD2|AfD3|AfD4|AfD5)

A potential candidate for the List of most protracted deletion topics on Wikipedia. The back history of deletion discussions is documented at Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2007 January 30. The last full discussion (AfD4 above), which lead to a delete was overturned after review of the deletion review (Note to all editors: Please please please always log a bolded opinion), and I'm listing both lists here for consistency. Please also note the parallel discussions on List of short men. This is a procedural nomination, I have no opinion (yet). ~ trialsanderrors 19:43, 5 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • For values of overturned which include sending it back here with the equally unencyclopaedic women list for a wider debate. Nobody has yet addressed the problems of arbitrariness, original research and systemic bias identified at the last AfD. Guy (Help!) 14:14, 6 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • This is factually inaccurate. There were other reasons for deletion, including bias, original research and unmaintainability. Guy (Help!) 14:15, 6 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • This is a legitimate concern, Any standard could seem to be defining things here that aren't defined in the real world. Because of that it probably does need to be limited to tallest or we need someone with a better understanding of "tall stature" in medical usage than I have. I've read some on the matter, but probably not enough.--T. Anthony 14:22, 6 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: That makes sense. A list of the tallest people, who have become notable for their height and height alone, would be a good list. Just throwing anyone who happened to be quite tall is a bad idea. J Milburn 20:37, 5 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • What, if I may ask, is particularly POV about the article? Claims of "tallness" can be documented, if that is the problem. Black Falcon 20:40, 5 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: 'Tall' is POV. I am 6'2"- am I tall? In some communities (The Netherlands, for instance) I would not be considered tall. Some communities (like those made up of pygmies) would consider me giant. J Milburn 20:49, 5 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Tall is a relational adjective, by which I mean one that describes an objects in relation to others. Relational adjectives are a normal part of everyday English. Wikipedia cannot be more specific/rigorous than the English language (or, in fact, any other language) allows. As for you personally, does a reliable source note you as being notably "tall"? If it does, then by all means add your name to the list. If not, then don't. If you don't like that, then how about List of tallest men/women? Black Falcon 20:56, 5 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. The question is, what reliable sources are there for determining whether height is notable? Record books? In that case, a great deal of names should be stricken from the lists. Shrumster 21:03, 5 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. I most certainly agree: many, many names should be dropped from the lists. As for sources, not necessarily just record books. For historical figures, history books might be used (most books about Russian history note that Peter the Great towered over most of his compatriots). For contemporary figures, any number of sources exist, including record books, almanacs, news articles (such as [1]), etc. (by news articles, I am of course not referring to such things as: "the murdered has been described by witnesses as tall, dark-haired, etc."). Black Falcon 21:21, 5 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. Height as a value is objective. Height being described as "tall" or "short" is subjective. In the same way as weight is objective, but calling someone heavy/light is subjective. Shrumster 20:59, 5 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - Yes wikipedia is the Guinness Book of World Records. We have at least one thousand articles regarding Records of some sort. This one is no different. Wjhonson 20:58, 5 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. While you are entirely entitled to your own opinion of what Wikipedia is, I shall point you towards WP:INN. Oh, and these lists aren't even records. They're indiscriminate lists of people whose height just happens to be higher than an arbitrarily set value. It might even be construed as original research, a big no-no in WP. Shrumster 21:06, 5 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. I understand your position and arguments. However, please also consider the following. Firstly, it is possible to set a value that is selected by non-Wikipedians (e.g., some height research institute). Secondly, the article can be renamed and edited to fit a new purpose--that way the criticisms will be addressed and the editors of the new articles won't have to start from zero. Black Falcon 21:14, 5 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • In its current form the list is subjective, but can be altered to become objective without deletion of the whole thing. Height is not inherently subjective. Night Gyr (talk/Oy) 21:10, 5 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Option Effort required? Result
Keep as is No (close discussion) The articles are kept and discussion moves to the talk page.
Delete No (close discussion) The articles (and any useful info they contain) is lost from WP
A precedent is established for deleting any list (including featured lists) that is not naturally-bound at a small number (e.g., a list of continents). No such precedent is set. A precedent would be set for the removal of lists whose inclusion criterion is made up by editors rather than being taken from reliable secondary sources.
Rename to List of the tallest men/women Yes (edit article to fit new title) A list of the tallest men/women is created (currently, throughout time, by region, etc.--that's a technical issue for the talk page).
Problems include: lack of reliable data prior to mid 20th Century, variation of height between countries (a 6'2" sumo is a very tall man in japan)
Rename to List of men/women notable for their height
or List of notably tall men/women (or something similar)
Yes (edit article to fit new title) A list is created that includes only those individuals whom a WP:RS lists as being notably "tall" or who are otherwise famous because of their tallness (e.g., the tallest man/woman alive).
Redirect to List of notable giants No (all very tall people are already on there) The only people remaining on the list are those who truly are 'tall', and are notable for the height (as opposed to being known for something else and happening to be pretty tall). This option is broken and inaccurate because height and gigantism are not synonymous.
In other words, they meet the criteria. and there is no basis for excluding them. The repeated discussions indicate that this verdict has met consistent an long-standing lack of consensus, and the present discussion just continues to show there will be none. Therefore, by our rules the list stays; possibly the renaming will help.DGG 21:45, 5 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, there are POV problems, as I've pointed out the previous debates. One such problem is that any cutoff point favors 20th and 21st century Westerners, especially Scandinavians and to a slightly lesser extent, Americans. This has been noted by several other editors before I'm bringing it up here. The POV concern that I noticed and brought up in previous debates is that arriving at a particular cutoff point is arbitrary, and since there's no "good reason" to choose 6'5" instead of 6'3", someone who wants their favorite person included can always come along and change it, and no one else can have any legitimate argument why they're wrong. An example, below in this very debate, is User:Dudo2 who wants the list changed back to 6'3" so that Lou Ferrigno can be included. Is Dudo wrong? If so, why? If not, why? There's no rationale argument one way or the other, so POV pushers will forever move the criteria around, just like they've done in the past. Now, as to the fact that this debate continues to be contentious, that's not an indication that there's no consensus for deletion. We've had many contentious debates result in deletion; the GIAA comes to mind. The fact is that one side here has consistently been arguing on basis of policy, WP:NOR and WP:NOT, while the other side wants to circumvent these requirements. A contentious debate can still reach consensus if only one side is backed up in policy. I do not believe that editors' passion is a basis for keeping articles. I've seen hundreds of very passionate AFDs go by, and the mere fact that there is a dispute should never be mistaken for "no consensus". Policy comes first unless there's a good case for invoking WP:IAR, and I've seen no such case here. — coelacan talk — 23:29, 10 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • 6'5" is an arbitrary number, WP:NOT indiscriminate. Over the past few months it seems to have varied between 6'1" and 6'7", none of which has ever been supported by a reliable definition from an external source, so...
  • 6'5" as a threshold for "tall" is a number plucked out of the air - it is original research, there is no agreed definition of "tall" in the reliable sources. The same applied when it was 6'3", 6'7" etc.
  • There is a difference of nearly a foot between the average height of a Vietnamese and a Dutchman, the list is systemically biased and fails WP:NPOV. Here is the list of average heights from a tolerably reliable source:
Australia: 5' 10", 178cm
Brazil: 5' 6.9", 170cm
China: 5' 6", 168cm
France: 5' 7.7", 171.9cm
Germany: 5' 8.2", 173cm
Holland: 6' 1", 185cm
Italy: 5' 8.0", 172.8cm
Japan: 5' 6", 168cm
Sri Lanka: 5' 4.5", 163.9cm
Sweden: 5' 8.5", 174cm
United Kingdom: 5' 10", 178cm
United States: 5' 10", 178cm
Vietnam: 5' 3", 160cm
  • 6'5" is normal for a basketball player, very unusual for a ballet dancer, the list is essentially a list of basketball players and some other people nearly as tall as basketball players. That makes it useless instead of WP:USEFUL, which is in any case not a grounds for inclusion.
  • 6'5" was unheard of in the 12th Century, this list is also temporally biased - Edward I of England went down in history as Edward Longshanks, his height would be considered barely above average today.
Not one of these issues has yet been addressed. So: biased, indiscriminate, arbitrary, original research - against which we have WP:USEFUL and WP:INTERESTING. Deleting an arbitrary POV list sets no precedent whatsoever other than for the deletion of lists which fail policy. Guy (Help!) 22:28, 5 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Systemic bias could exist in most any kind of list of anything. List of largest suspension bridges is biased against countries like Bhutan which can't produce things like that. List of tallest buildings and structures in the world could be said to be temporally biased as only a few structures from before 1880 are listed. In addition this is about extremes of height and that can occur anywhere.--T. Anthony 01:07, 6 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Allow me to respond to each of your criticisms.
  • Arbitrariness - according to that reasoning, any list that does not include all objects (the universe of applicable cases) to which it refers (e.g., all 50 states of the US) should be deleted. There are a great many topics which this would automatically exclude. Furthermore, as noted above, the title and focus of the article can be changed to include either only the "tallest" individuals or individuals who are noted for their height in reliable sources.
  • Original research - renaming/refocusing the article takes care of this as well.
  • Systemic bias - renaming/refocusing the article takes care of this as well.
  • Uselessness - that is your personal opinion, to which you are of course entitled. Oh, and, renaming/refocusing the article takes care of this as well.
  • Temporal bias - renaming/refocusing the article takes care of this as well (or add a historical figures section).
Essentially, you make a good case for improving the article, but not a very convicing one for deleting it. Black Falcon 23:07, 5 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • And deleting a list for not meeting a level of objectivity that is not afforded by the English language does set a precedent and a very bad one at that. Black Falcon 23:09, 5 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • A List of tallest men could address all of these biases, by listing the tallest men of each country, the tallest men at each point in history, etc. Night Gyr (talk/Oy) 01:43, 6 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Please note, again, that dwarfism, like gigantism, is a medical condition. Black Falcon 22:57, 5 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - these articles should not redirect to the List of notable giants article, as the latter is "solely for people with medical conditions in the gigantism family". Moreover, how are extremes of height not relevant to an encyclopedia? Also, these article, if renamed to "List of tallest men/women" or somesuch, would not be like an "extra" suspension bridge article--it would be the equivalent of the suspension bridge article. But then, according to the "subjective" criticism, even that list should go: why does it not include any bridges below 290m in length? According to the "subjective" criticism, that list should be deleted unless every suspension bridge in the world is included in it. Otherwise, any cut-off point is "subjective". Black Falcon 22:57, 5 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • People ith gigantism are not necessarily giants, just as people who are giants do not necessarily suffer from gigantism. The two terms are not synonymous. That being said, the point is moot, as the article is now at List of people with gigantism (it was moved from 'List of notable giants'). I still back deleting this article. Proto:: 13:09, 6 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Could you please clarify what you mean by "poor categorization"? Thank you, Black Falcon 23:28, 5 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Perhaps you would support renaming/refocusing the article as outlined above? Black Falcon 23:28, 5 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • No, but WP is (or should be) "a comprehensive written compendium that contains information on all branches of knowledge", such as extremes of height. Would you support renaming/refocusing the article as suggested above to List of tallest men/women or List of men/women notable for their height or something similar? Black Falcon 23:50, 5 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Noroton's mirthful comment hits the nail on the head.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back 07:16, 11 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.