The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. WP:ATHLETE does require "significant coverage in reliable secondary sources", which are not provided here. The sources which are provided appear not to contain any information regarding Peter Chamis. Without appropriate evidence of notability from reliable sources an article does not meet WP:ATHLETE. SilkTork *^YES! 21:01, 24 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Peter Chamis (soccer)[edit]

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Contested prod. Fails WP:ATHLETE, as the subject has never played in a top-level league, and there's no significant coverage to meet the general notability guideline as all sources are team rosters. TheCatalyst31 ^{Reaction•Creation} 22:52, 16 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

One of the references is the official United States Soccer Federation Pro Player Registry. This is not a team roster, it is the most official means of recognizing professional soccer players in the United States. Additionally, there are many WP athletes that play in the exact same leagues mentioned. Based on this, I feel that the article is valid.Longdecember (talk) 00:36, 17 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Just because an athlete is professional doesn't mean they're notable; many professional leagues are far from the top level in their sport. And if other athletes who play in these leagues have articles, that doesn't mean they should have articles, unless they're notable for some other reason or played in a top league once; see Wikipedia:Other stuff exists. TheCatalyst31 ^{Reaction•Creation} 01:12, 17 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I understand your point. It seems that what is considered notable leaves some room for discussion. In this case, this athlete is a documented professional soccer player who played in the 2nd and 3rd Divisions of American professional soccer, which is notable by those in the soccer community, however, by the average person researching in WP maybe not so notable. Additionally, the noteworthiness of this article is consistent with others I’ve researched on WP, i.e. Matt Bobo and based on this, I’d like to see the article remain. Whatever the decision, my intent is solely to contribute to WP in a manner than provides accurate information and enhances the ability of those who are researching.Longdecember (talk) 08:55, 17 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

After reading the WP:ATHLETE, under the sub-section the relates to soccer, it states that athletes that play in one of the fully professional leagues that are listed, including the USL 2nd Division which is where this athlete played, are generally regarded as notable. This concludes that this league is recognized as fully professional, although not top level, i.e. Major League Soccer, and thus warrants notability. Please review the WP:ATHLETE soccer sub-section for professional leagues in the United States to see the aforementioned information. Longdecember (talk) 09:44, 18 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Football-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 03:34, 17 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 03:34, 17 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related deletions. Giant Snowman 06:37, 18 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - fails WP:ATHLETE and WP:GNG. Giant Snowman 06:43, 18 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - Has played in an alleged "fully professional league" at WP:ATHLETE. Eliteimp (talk) 18:43, 19 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment None of the sources supplied link to anything I can find on Chamis except the one showing he was a 'registered professional' (and doesn't show whether he ever played). There are some mouse droppings out there, but every turn I take I'm greeted by dead links. GSearch Chamis at each of the domains in references provide noting except for DePauls who seem to have had a massive site clean-out as both returns are to "page not found". I would like to see some proper verification of something. And does anyone know for sure if USISL D-3 Pro League was fully pro in 2002 as it appears to have been 4 mini leagues split geographically according to 2002 USISL D-3 Pro League--ClubOranje^T 11:47, 21 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I don't have a definitive answer, but most American sports split all of their leagues geographically, even the NFL. --W F C-- 06:49, 22 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Delete clearly, categorically and unambiguously passes WP:NSPORTS/WP:ATHLETE, by virtue of 37 games in the fully professional USL. However, there is no indication that he passes the far more important general notability guide. --W F C-- 06:44, 22 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Where are these 37 games in the USL shown? the 20 for Chicago were in Premier Development League - not fully professional. The 18 Royals appearances may qualify...but other than the claim here, I find no verification. (Either way it doesn't add up to 37!)--ClubOranje^T 07:44, 22 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know how I got to 37! It's immaterial anyway. Either the infobox is a hoax, or he has played in the USL and therefore passes ATHLETE/NSPORTS. But even assuming that he does, that doesn't automatically make him notable. As for finding verification, I haven't gone to the trouble on the grounds that I see it as irrelevant to my opinion on the AfD. Regards, --W F C-- 02:21, 23 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment After a thorough search, it seems as though the USL does not maintain archieved statistics (or at least dosen't publish them openly) making it difficult to cite accurately. As a former sport writer in this athlete's hometown, I might have access to actual print articles with statistics, otherwise, the search continues. I would still like to reiterate that based on the WP:ATHLETE criteria, this athlete does meet the notability guidelines as he did play in a fully professional league which is recognized by WP and cited accordingly. I realize there are some very good arguments and comments by many on the board, however, to deviate from the fact that this athlete does meet the notability guidelines for WP:ATHLETE would be inconsistent with other articles on the same topic. I would like to concur that this article could use some additional citations and verifications, however to eliminate it at this point would be pre-mature in my opinion. Recommendation is for additional time to locate sources to support a good article and make it much better for future people doing research. Longdecember (talk) 06:23, 24 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Pretend for a moment I'm not very bright... where is the verification "cited accordingly" that he played in a fully professional league?--ClubOranje^T 11:43, 24 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.