The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was speedy delete. hoax DGG ( talk ) 01:57, 24 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Prince Mohammed bin Faisal I bin Al Hussein El-Hashemite

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This article was PRODded in 2008 with the reason "Probable hoax, no mention of a second son for King Faisal I of Iraq in genealogies on the Iraqi Royal Family", and deleted. Undeletion has been requested by an IP, so I have restored it and bring it here. I have found nothing online that did not appear to be a Wikipedia mirror. The official Jordan government page on the Hashemite Royal Family shows that King Faisal I had only one son, Ghazi. The only link in the article goes to an organization called "Royal Academy of Science International Trust" which appears to be real and claims to have been founded by Prince Mohammed; but per WP:V we should not keep this without a reliable source for the claim that Faisal I had a second son. The SPA author also created articles about the Prince's son (PRODded) and daughter (deleted at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Princess Nisreen El-Hashemite, where other evidence is cited that Faisal I had only one son). JohnCD (talk) 17:23, 19 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Iraq-related deletion discussions. —JohnCD (talk) 17:31, 19 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Delete; I see no evidence that convinces me this is for real. Kansan (talk) 17:40, 19 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: the corresponding page on the Arabic Wikipedia has been deleted, no reason stated. JohnCD (talk) 17:48, 19 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I found a source from the Royal Academy of Science International Trust that he apparently founded? See here. So, he appears to be real? I'm just not sure. There's three possibilities here. First, this, including the RASIT website, is all a hoax. Or, there just hasn't been any news about this guy ever really published anywhere. Or, there has purposefully never been any info on this guy published because it is a cover-up by some sort of group or government. Silver seren^C 18:59, 19 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't read all of the nom's statement, apparently. :P Silver seren^C 19:00, 19 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

There seems to enough about RASIT to suggest that it's real: the question is, was the guy who founded it a son of King Faisal, which is the article's principal claim? JohnCD (talk) 19:26, 19 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I guess that depends on whether you feel that RASIT is trustworthy in its claim then, doesn't it? Silver seren^C 19:42, 19 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Well its is not independent of the founder, is it?--Tikiwont (talk) 20:02, 19 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, they have an interest in a royal founder, so that they can put "Royal" in their title; I certainly would not regard them, unsupported, as a reliable enough source to counter the Jordanian one above, plus [1], [2], [3] etc. JohnCD (talk) 20:13, 19 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. Actually this is was reposted after the prod and deleted per Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mohammed bin Faisal I where also the AfDs for the two mentioned sons are linked. Right now we don't have anything to go on with, so I'd suggest to tag this as speedy and refer anybody claiming this to userspace draft and DRV. --Tikiwont (talk) 19:49, 19 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Changed my mind, better to hash this out thoroughly. Nevertheless the previously deleted article already mentioned RASIT as well, but without link to a statement. --Tikiwont (talk) 20:02, 19 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. The NGO exists. I can reference it to more than just its own website. The person who founded it does appear to style himself as Prince Mohammed bin Faisal I bin Al Hussein El-Hashemite. His sons and daughter exist; most have little attributed to them, but his daughter works for the NGO and is quoted in third-party sources as a spokesperson at times. However, there's not enough there to make a biography on any of these people. If the founder of this NGO was in fact the son of King Faisal I, and pretender to the throne of the Kingdom of Iraq, then there would be no question about notability. But I can't confirm that at all. Not only would I treat the Jordanian government family tree as definitive, absent compelling contradictory evidence, but multiple sources identify King Ghazi as the only son of King Faisal. These include several books (Google Books search for "only son of King Faisal" is productive) and journal articles, including this Middle East Policy article ("The death of King Faisal I in September 1933 and the succession of Ghazi, his only son, to the throne signaled this new period in Iraqi politics."). I'm at a loss to explain the claims made by the NGO's founder (you'd think someone would have noticed and said something one way or the other...), but unless a great many highly reputable sources are wrong, they cannot be accurate. I don't think we have any choice but deletion unless there's more information forthcoming. Serpent's Choice (talk) 19:55, 19 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

There is also no shortage of sources discussing the line of succession of the Royal House of Iraq. In 1958, following the death of King Faisal II, that title in pretense was uniformly considered to have passed to Prince Zeid bin Hussein. According to the November 1943 Iraqi constitution, agnatic heirs of King Hussein of Hejaz would only become eligible for succession to the Iraqi throne in the case of the extinction of the agnatic line of King Faisal I. Following Zeid's death in 1970, the title in pretense passed to his son Ra'ad bin Zeid (notwithstanding a completing claim by Sharif Ali bin al-Hussein, also descended from Hussein of Hejaz, but not via the male line), as confirmed by the government of Jordan. Regardless, neither Zeid nor Ra'ad nor Ali would have had any claim if there was a living second son of King Faisal I. It's been over 50 years since the death of King Faisal II; I'm pretty sure they would have noticed by now. Serpent's Choice (talk) 20:51, 19 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

When Ghazi died in 1939, Faisal II was only three years old; if there had been a living brother of Ghazi, as the young King's uncle and nearest male relative, he would surely have been Regent and been in the history books for that reason; but the Regent was actually 'Abd al-Ilah, a cousin of Ghazi. JohnCD (talk) 22:49, 19 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 23:46, 19 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Delete as hoax. Edward321 (talk) 12:58, 20 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Delete and salt as hoax. --Orange Mike | Talk 19:46, 20 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Delete as there are absolutely no reliable sources, maybe even a hoax. Armbrust ^Talk _Contribs 20:08, 21 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.