The result was delete. Thanks to Patrick for the reasoned comments about the site. Deletion seems to have consensus, as the arguments to keep are based on the usefulness of the site and it being cited briefly in the press. The deletion of this article has no bearing on whether RPGFan is a reliable source. Fences&Windows 03:07, 19 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Does not appear notable per WP:WEB, could not find any sources to support it. Seems little more than a fansite for RPGs in general. Tagged for notability and sources since April 08. Rehevkor ✉ 23:46, 11 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
All,
This is Patrick Gann, one of the senior staff at RPGFan. I'm not going to vote "keep" or "delete" for obvious reasons. I'd just like to share some things to help you all make your decisions.
Regarding coverage of RPGFan from other sources:
A few major sites have "acknowledged" us, by sourcing etc. Atama noted the Wired source. When we are cited for a news source, it is usually as a translation service. Our lead news writer, Chris Winkler, is a German native who also speaks English and Japanese fluently. He's on top of Japanese-language news, and as a result, RPGFan can occasionally come out and be the first English-language source of Japanese game news. Sites like Joystiq (see: http://playstation.joystiq.com/category/riviera/ or http://www.joystiq.com/2008/04/09/nintendo-power-ffiv-ds-coming-in-july/), Kotaku and 1Up occasionally use our news stories (credited or uncredited) for translation from Japanese to English, or just because we were "on the ball."
As far as "site coverage," the largest thing I know of is an interview that some very small site did about me and the RPGFan Soundtracks section. See: http://www.ffomake.com/pgannint1.htm
Our site has also been quoted in trailers and on the back of box art for games. In particular, see: http://www.gametrailers.com/video/visceral-action-demons-souls/55696 @ 0:57 ~ 1:00 ... we are the third site quoted, directly after Gamespot and Eurogamer.
My semi-philosophical, semi-pragmatic thought here: if the requirement for something on Wikipedia *to have its own article* is that another source has some lengthy content ABOUT that something, then indeed, RPGFan probably shouldn't have its own Wiki article. Now, whether or not it's a reputable source for *other articles* is another question, with its own set of standards, correct? Since I don't know where else to put it, I'll go into that side of things and address some questions comments from other Wiki users here, if that's alright.
Regarding "editorial oversight" -- this is largely done internally, though there are some external restrictions that apply as well. To clear this up, the company/business behind RPGFan (Cerberus Media Group) does exist largely on paper. But it is a business. It is comprised of current and former RPGFan staff, mostly those who have worked in the development/PR roles for the site. I am not a part of CMG. But I do know that they handle all financial aspects of the site. CMG is "for-profit," which means it pays taxes. It collects ad revenue and uses that revenue to pay server fees and sometimes help reimburse for special occasions, such as if a staff member attends a convention (E3, GDC, etc). While the company CMG is "for profit," the entire staff of RPGFan remains unpaid. In place of payment are "perks" -- the free games that come at retail release, or sometimes in advance, from game publishers and/or 3rd-party PR groups, with the implicit understanding that those games will receive a review.
Most games that come to us have what the gaming press calls an "embargo date." This goes for full reviews, and also for "hands-on previews" if a game is sent in advance. While some publications tend to break those dates (in the same way a GameStop might break a "street date" for a game's release), RPGFan has rigidly held to those dates. In this sense, there is an external factor over *when* a review might go up. That's not necessarily content control, but it is a type of control.
As far as internal control goes, we do have designated copy-editors within the staff, and all news and reviews are checked for both grammatical errors and factual errors before posts. Also, if a review's text doesn't seem to match the numerical ratings, the copy-editors can challenge a reviewer on what's been written versus the scores given. In the last four years or so, we've actually developed a fairly robust internal editorial oversight program. But again, it's all done by volunteers; not sure if that's a problem.
Finally, our site does a pretty hefty amount of niche/import coverage. There are whole wikipedia articles that probably couldn't exist as much more than a stub without RPGFan's contributions. For example, see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music_of_the_Final_Fantasy_series
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ys:_The_Oath_in_Felghana
Many of the taken-for-granted (unsourced) statements in those articles can be found sourced at RPGFan, and many of the other sites sourced have relied on RPGFan (credited or not) for information.
Some speculation as to why RPGFan is often called into question when an article is being nominated for Featured Article status. First, we have the word "Fan" in our name, suggesting an entirely fan-based site, one that might lack objectivity. Second, the site still exists in a Web 1.0 format, which generally calls into question the health and value of the site compared to many other sites (interestingly, our friends/rivals at RPGamer are in the exact same predicament).
However, I think the biggest reason RPGFan's legitimacy gets called into question when an article is getting considered for Featured Article status, is that (almost as a rule) the games that make FA status are popular games. That means that many very popular, already-known-to-be-legitimate sources have said tons of things about the game already. At that point, you might argue that RPGFan's voice in the matter is extraneous at best, and harmful at worst (if you cannot claim objectivity or legitimacy for the site). So, for safety's sake, the link to RPGFan for a Featured Article gets cut. Much as I'd like to change this, I think all we can do is continue to grow as a site, get some Web 2.0 features running, and perhaps bring some transparency to the workings of CMG. Advice from Wiki members on this point would be much appreciated.
All that said, I do think RPGFan ought to be considered a legitimate news source when there aren't many other outlets covering a game. For example:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ar_tonelico
We probably have the most complete coverage of this game among the six sites that were linked for the score. We have full information and reviews for the game itself, as well as its soundtracks (the game puts a strong emphasis on music, particularly female vocals with a fictional/created language). Games like these may not be as popular, and thus may not get full coverage at a site like GameSpot. And there are plenty of games that are far smaller in terms of development cost, sales, and popularity than Ar tonelico. For things like this, where this is no "larger" source to turn to for scores or quotes for reception, I would think that RPGFan is still a safe choice.
Sorry for the wall of text, hope this helps in consideration of the site, not just for the potential deletion of RPGFan as its own page on Wikipedia, but also for using RPGFan as a source for game-related Wikipedia articles.
Thank you, Patrick Gann Tonelico00 (talk) 03:02, 15 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]