The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. --Coffee // have a cup // ark // 10:55, 9 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Ryan C. Gordon[edit]

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Subject does not appear to be notable. I did add a notability template to the article, but it was removed. Rockfang (talk) 21:26, 2 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of video game related deletion discussions. MrKIA11 (talk) 00:27, 3 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Keep I find this nomination frankly ridiculous. This article is linked to numerous times on other articles and the subject has a profound internet presence, see the external links on the article or put the name "Ryan C. Gordon", "Ryan Gordon", or "icculus" into Google. Also the fact that this article has existed for over three years adds a certain amount of established notability in its own right. Comrade Hamish Wilson (talk) 00:52, 3 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Agreed, ridiculous. Icculus has been interviewed by various technical, Linux, gaming, and even hardware websites and is mentioned in several books on Linux (if not by name, but by titles he has ported). He is a known figure head in Linux and Mac gaming, which can be found by a simple search at any website such as LinuxGames or Phoronix. He has worked for Loki Software (the founder of commercial Linux gaming, mentioned in hundreds of articles such as those in Linux Journal, and he was important in Loki too!), Google (Linux port of Google Earth), Epic Games (Unreal Tournament series), the U.S. Army (for America's Army), and even did work for NASA according to one interview which is linked to in the article. Gordon doesn't find work like most programming contractors, work finds him. My family has been in the consulting trade, who know that when companies go knocking on your door, rather than you trying to find work yourself means something. His sheer number of notable clients, which is documented here and elsewhere on Wikipedia establish notability in its own right. Comrade Graham (talk) 01:25, 3 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

~~Delete~~ Based on that article he does not meet WP:GNG. The only links are to his on site and interviews on web sites that few people have heard of. There are people in the games industry with far higher profile, who have been interviewed by mainstream media, quoted regularly and often, and played a part in shaping the industry, but still aren't notable enough for their own article — Matt Booty former CEO of Midway is one. A Google search turns up nothing else of note, only those things already in the article. JohnBlackburne (talk) 22:45, 3 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
First off, statements such as "web sites that few people have heard of" are hear-say and irrelevant. Just because not everyone has heard of a certain news-source does not mean it is not relevant. Phoronix, for example, is very important in the Linux world but pretty much unknown everywhere else. Just because Windows users have never heard of it does not mean a sizable amount of Linux users do not eagerly read its posts. Secondly, this article is needed as part of Wikipedia's infrastructure. If you put the likes of "Matt Booty" into an article search you get two relevant articles that mention him. Do a search for Ryan "icculus" Gordon however and it is quite a different story. There are many articles that mention him and link to this article. And thirdly, he is not just a member of the gaming industry but the Linux and Mac industry as well. In fact, on Linux he could easily be called a leader in his field. Because of this niche market fulfillment it elevates his importance over just one name in the crowd Windows game programmers. Also Matt Booty might not be notable but Midway is and in many ways Gordon acts more like a company than a person in terms of output. Hence the amount of articles that would link to Midway and not Booty would always in the equivalent case link to this article. Please keep this in mind. Comrade Hamish Wilson (talk) 01:40, 4 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
If he is a "leader in his field" then that should be in the article, if it can be referenced. But references in other Wikipedia articles is largely irrelevant as it's not a reliable source. See WP:CIRCULAR. The point about the quality of sources is from WP:GNG. And A web search on its own shows nothing, it's the quality of the references it finds, which should then be used in the article. See e.g. WP:BIO#Invalid criteria. My apologies if the links seem Wikilawyerly but they make the points far better than I could. JohnBlackburne (talk) 08:38, 4 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I am sorry, but I do not see your point with linking to the General notability guideline with regards to the sources on this article. All of them seem to adhere to it. They are independent of the subject (except for the resume), none contain any libellous or contentious statements, they are from news sources which can be assumed to be reliable (they are used as sources on other articles, which seems to add community belief in their credibility), and offer enough coverage to allow a presumption of notability. Unless you post reasons why you think they do not follow the guidelines, you are threatening to be acting in a similar fashion as example six of Gaming the system. As I am sure that is not your intention, perhaps you can post your reasons for doubting the sources so we can have a reasonable discussion about it. Also, I never insinuated that other articles can be used as sources. My point was if we remove Ryan C. Gordon it would immediately become noticeable on the Wanted Pages listing. This article is part of the wiki infrastructure, as any valid article that has been around for a number of years should be, and removing it would damage that. This might be applicable to the Ignore all rules guidelines, as it would damage Wikipedia's coverage in a similar fashion to firing a cannon ball at a load-bearing wall currently supporting a free-standing building. Granted this should never be used as a main argument, and I do not intend to use it as such, but it should still be mentioned. Comrade Hamish Wilson (talk) 23:27, 4 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Notability requires good secondary sources. The sources here are all interviews, i.e. primary sources, and they are also from relatively obscure sources - not ones that many people would recognise, even in gaming. And as you seem to agree Wikipedia itself is not a reliable source. JohnBlackburne (talk) 00:30, 5 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, thank you for being clear about the problem now. When you posted this message there were about two secondary sources on the article, and I did a web crawl last night and found and added some more. Check the citations on the article. I still say statements such as that the sources are "not ones that many people would recognize" are hear-say and irrelevant. However, in the sources defense, I will say this. Other Wikipedia articles can not be used to determine notability, but that can be indicative that people are interested in the subject enough to make them. Almost all of the sources have Wikipedia articles about them. See Phoronix, LinuxGames, Inside Mac Games, and ars technica. I have also seen Blue's News in print media, though I am shocked it does not have an article. Comrade Hamish Wilson (talk) 22:08, 5 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It looks better now though it still looks unencyclopaedic - too little text. I found a couple of links myself when searching yesterday, though I don't know if they are of use: [1] and [2]. Anyway, I'll redact my delete vote as my main concern, the lack of references, has been addressed. JohnBlackburne (talk) 22:46, 5 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, I have written a proper biography section now, hope this helps solve some of your complaints about the article. It needs more information about his work between 2004 - 2007, and it barely mentions his Mac ports at all (mostly because I do not know much about them or where to find sources for them), but is is more than a start.Comrade Hamish Wilson (talk) 07:52, 7 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I have expanded it now to cover the year gap, and found a few new sources.Comrade Hamish Wilson (talk) 07:20, 8 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Notable - Ret.Prof (talk) 01:11, 4 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Keep HIGHLY NOTABLE Kc4 (talk) 23:45, 4 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - well-known in the Linux/gaming community, and the article seems to have plenty of third-party sources to establish notability. Linux (and Linux gaming) may not be as dominant as Windows, but it's still plenty notable. Cocytus [»talk«] 03:39, 9 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.