The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. WP:V is determinative here; the sources may be "out there", but they are not in the article, where they count. Unsourced content should also not be merged. I've discounted this utterly unreadable comment. Sandstein 22:46, 30 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Siege of Ecbatana[edit]

No content except for info box. This is a re-creation of a speedily deleted article. I'd improve it but I can't find any sources for such a siege. Doug Weller (talk) 10:45, 24 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Keep, very weakly. This is an ancient battle for which sources are sparse, but it appears to be at least alluded to in the Chronicle of Nabonidus. - Smerdis of Tlön (talk) 14:23, 24 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment It isn't clear that there was a battle, and I don't see how you can besiege a country either. The text of Nabonidus says "Cyrus marched against the country Ecbatana; the royal residence he seized; silver, gold, other valuables of the country Ecbatana he took as booty and brought to Anšan." I'm not saying there wasn't a city called Ecbatana which was the 'capital', just that there isn't any evidence for either siege or battle in Nabonidus. Cyrus may not have had to fight at all. If this belongs anywhere should be just a short mention in the Cyrus the Great article. Doug Weller (talk) 15:26, 24 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Delete If such event had simply taken place it would certainly be notable - but that's a big if. I've been unable to find any reference in google books of a siege or battle of Ecbatana in 549 or 550; thus I believe this article is probably just a mistake, or a free extrapolation of the creator of the article.--Aldux (talk) 20:31, 24 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Military-related deletion discussions. -- Fabrictramp | talk to me 23:51, 24 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of History-related deletion discussions. -- Fabrictramp | talk to me 23:51, 24 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete No content. TomStar81 (Talk) 00:50, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Zero reliable or verifiable sources to establish notability of subject. This article doesn't belong on Wikipedia. Artene50 (talk) 09:24, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - We have a short article Ecbatana, which describes it as a walled city which Cyrus the Great took and plundered. From what is stated above, it seems we have no details as to how he took it - whether by siege, storm, or plain surrender. Accordingly, there is little known fact to write an article about. Accordingly, redirect to Ecbatana. Alternatively substitute "Capture of Ecbatana" for "Siege of Ecbatana" in the template and then delete. Certainly there is no place for this to survive as an article, though the campaign leading to its capture does legitmately appear in the Cyrus template, which is all wew have on the page at present. Peterkingiron (talk) 16:21, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment So far I have not found any specific reference to a siege there, but I am still looking. Though some of the potential sources are online, I'd be happier with a proper print search, but that will have to wait for next week. The name seems to have been used for the city, the country around the cite, and the palace. DGG (talk) 18:33, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Redirect to Ecbatana, naturally. Tan | 39 23:34, 26 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep It is small but as was said above, it is about an ancient battle that does have few sources out there. It can be expanded as more becomes available. Kevin Rutherford (talk) 23:56, 27 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment We have 2 sources, Ctesias and Herodotus. Neither of these suggests it was a siege. It was part of the Persian Revolt and belongs either there or in Ecbatana or both. What I have found is that Ctesias says Ecbatana was surrendered to Cyrus after he threatened to kill Astyages daughter [1]. So, not a siege. Doug Weller (talk) 05:06, 28 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Merge to Ecbatana with use of Capture instead of Siege. Britannica mentions the fall of Ecbatana to the Persians (Cyrus) and Herodotus mentions the city surrounded by 7 walls. The idea of the city being sieged is plausible, however, the article is just too weak in its current format to justify anything more than a mention in Ecbatana. I'm somewhat partial to a rename to Capture of Ecbatana as mentioned above, but at this point without more sources and info I think this stub would find a nice home a section within Ecbatana, particularly because that article could use some expansion as well. Expand Siege/Capture article at a later point if required or general Ecbatana info becomes too cumbersome. Just keep it altogether at the moment. Interesting one though! Note for researchers, don't forget this city carries several names: the modern "Hamedan" and the Old Persian, "Hâgmatâna" ("meeting place"), so more may be found there. Trippz (talk) 12:22, 28 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. As the creator of this article, I have gathered information from this page and from other notable sources which is presented here. This user is also open to the idea of renaming it as RAID or CAPTURE, raid might be better. And from the Babylonian tablets pertaining to Ecbatana, notice it says the words MARCHED AGAINST, SEIZED, CAPTURED, TOOK. Babylonians, because they have an archaic language, and middle English is used for most translations, never use the words Siege of Ecbatana, they use seize though, as SEIZE in military terms basically means SIEGE. Ctesias says he took it, and by force as provided by this user, simply means Cyrus must have gone to some length to successfully control the city. When Ctesias says it, he may have meant the inner walls, and this is not speculation, as Ecbatana has inner walls to the main city, just like Babylon, it was multilayered. Now, he had threatened to kill the daughter, because he could not find Astyages, and Spitamas lied or gave Astyages up, as one may know, Spitamas was a Median noblemen married to Amytis, the daughter of Astyages. So Cyrus executed Spitamas and others. And on the Persian side it is unknown how many died in this minor siege, if not a RAID. But, this might not have been a siege parse, more like a raid, which there WAS CASUALTIES, by very, very few in number, maybe only a couple of people. So as most historians say Ecbatana was not besieged, they are only referring to Herodotus' version of events, so the best I can give this article PERSONALLY is a RAID, but the ONLY reason I call it a siege is for it to have a normal title. Ecbatana is similar to Siege of the Sogdian Rock, in Alexander’s battles, Alexander had 300 men, and only lost 30 men on the climbing, and the city was BARELY besieged, it immediately surrendered, almost like Ecbatana, but its still called a SIEGE! Please someone explain it to me, as you know I model the Cyrus articles on Alexander’s, because Alexander’s article is much more complete than Cyrus'. Anyways, if one checks out Alexander’s siege, they will see what I mean. For now, please read these three sources and more sources are to come.

[[[1. http://www.lastgen.net/articles/biblecharacter-cyrus.html Excerpt: Unable to carry out the inhuman act, Harpugus secretly turns the child over to a Persian herdsman and his wife. And the boy, Cyrus, grows from a helpless infant into a fearless hunter. Gaining the confidence and respect of all Persia, he leads a revolt and storms the city of Ecbatana.

2. http://books.google.com/books?id=0c_fbw5RaCkC&pg=PA591&lpg=PA591&dq=cyrus+siege+of+ecbatana&source=web&ots=jl83Cbq_Co&sig=DCDnVkg-TcBB8c5tYEXfXBEurnI&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=4&ct=result Excerpt: Says on page 591, Cyrus had to take Ecbatana to be called the ‘Great King’.

3. http://www.parstimes.com/library/brief_history_of_persian_empire.html Excerpt: Faced with the Persian revolt and the betrayal of the aristocracy, Astyages was captured, and the royal city of Ecbatana had to SUBMIT to Cyrus, according to Ctesias because Cyrus threatened to torture his daughter Amytis, whom Cyrus later married.]]]

Now these are common sense comments from most users that responded on this page;

Keep. Very weakly. This is an ancient battle for which sources are sparse, but it appears to be at least alluded to in the Chronicle of Nabonidus. The text of Nabonidus says “Cyrus marched against the country Ecbatana; the royal residence he seized; silver, gold, other valuables of the country Ecbatana he took as booty and brought to Anšan." *Comment - We have a short article Ecbatana, which describes it as a walled city which Cyrus the Great took and plundered. From what is stated above, it seems we have no details as to how he took it - whether by siege, storm, or plain surrender. (ACTUALLY, BASED ON SOURCES, STORMING AND SURRENDERING TOOK PLACE), accordingly, there is little known fact to write an article about. Accordingly, redirect to Ecbatana. Alternatively substitute "Capture of Ecbatana" for "Siege of Ecbatana" in the template and then delete. Certainly there is no place for this to survive as an article, though the campaign leading to its capture does legitimately appear in the Cyrus template, which is all we have on the page at present. Peterkingiron (talk) 16:21, 25 June 2008 (UTC)*Comment So far I have not found any specific reference to a siege there, but I am still looking. Though some of the potential sources are online, I'd be happier with a proper print search, but that will have to wait for next week. The name seems to have been used for the city, the country around the site, and the palace. DGG (talk) 18:33, 25 June 2008 (UTC) Keep. It is small but as was said above, it is about an ancient battle that does have few sources out there. It can be expanded as more becomes available. Kevin Rutherford (talk) 23:56, 27 June 2008 Merge. To Ecbatana with use of Capture instead of Siege. Britannica mentions the fall of Ecbatana to the Persians (Cyrus) and Herodotus mentions the city surrounded by 7 walls. The idea of the city being sieged is plausible, however, the article is just too weak in its current format to justify anything more than a mention in Ecbatana. I'm somewhat partial to a rename to Capture of Ecbatana as mentioned above, but at this point without more sources and info I think this stub would find a nice home a section within Ecbatana, particularly because that article could use some expansion as well. Expand Siege/Capture article at a later point if required or general Ecbatana info becomes too cumbersome. Just keep it altogether at the moment. Interesting one though! Note for researchers, don't forget this city carries several names: the modern "Hamadan" and the Old Persian, "Hâgmatâna" ("meeting place"), so more may be found there. Ecbatana is the original name. Trippz (talk) 12:22, 28 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Because sources are so sparse, and everyone copies each other, a mere imply or suggestion by the ancient historians must be taken somewhat seriously, and currently there are 7/11 replies that are in favor of either keeping or renaming the Siege of Ecbatana!.--Ariobarza (talk) 23:28, 29 June 2008 (UTC)Ariobarza talk[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.