The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. The main point of concern was whether Mr Roche played in a fully professional league, and hence passes WP:ATHLETE. The votes for deletion focused upon this point, explained various reasons why the subject failed WP:ATHLETE. Those arguments were not adequately answered by the keepers. (pun intended :) ) \ Backslash Forwardslash / (talk) 23:39, 21 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Stephen Roche (football)[edit]

Stephen Roche (football) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View log)

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I contested this as a speedy, but looking into it I don't really see where this player passes WP:N currently. He's basically a college footballer, that doesn't seem notable in and of itself. Wizardman 23:58, 14 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Athletes-related deletion discussions. -- –Juliancolton | ^Talk 00:23, 15 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Football-related deletion discussions. -- –Juliancolton | ^Talk 00:24, 15 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football related deletions. GiantSnowman 07:32, 15 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete - fails WP:ATHLETE and WP:GNG. GiantSnowman 07:33, 15 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete Being a college footballer isn't enough Spiderone (talk) 08:22, 15 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment, He was the captain of Ireland's 2009 World University Games team and has played for UCD in the League of Ireland. Is this not enough to warrant keeping the article? SchumiUCD (talk) 00:29, 17 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'd tend to agree, but the general consensus on here is that youth football isn't notable at all. Jhealy (talk) 15:20, 19 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

World University Games or FAI First Division isnt "youth football".--Vintagekits (talk) 15:24, 19 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'd disagree on the former. On the latter, we've hardly established that Premier division football is notable, much less one appearance a division down. As I say, I think there's merit in keeping the article, but it doesn't meet wikipedia's guidelines.Jhealy (talk) 16:34, 21 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete, seems to play at a low level in Ireland and the Student Games appearances don't satisfy WP:N or WP:ATHLETE. Tricky finding sources for him as even with a more refined search you end up with as many results for the 1987 Tour de France winner. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 07:38, 17 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete definitely non-notable subject, fails WP:N and WP:ATHLETE. --Angelo (talk) 12:34, 17 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment, Your arguments are flawed because the rest of the UCD squad all have pages. Whats more the fact that he has captained his country places him at a higher level of importance than the rest of the squad. The page should remain. 13.44, 17 August 2009 -- — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.207.58.11 (talk • contribs)
  • Actually, only 12 players out of 28 listed in the "current squad" section of the club's article seem to have articles of their own, not all as you state -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 15:36, 17 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • Probably the most pedantic comment I've seen in this whole attack on Irish football. That's world-class pedantry right there. Dahamsta (talk) 10:35, 21 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete. WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS is not a valid argument in AfD's - the UCD players that do have articles would probably fail Wikipedia guidelines anyway. This player fails WP:ATHLETE due to him never playing at a professional level, and fails general notability guidelines due to a lack of published third-party sources. Anything Google gives us is about the other (and much more notable) Stephen Roche. Bettia (bring on the trumpets!) 15:34, 17 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete Not yet notable. Appearances at a non professional level do not make him notable in a sport whose pinnacle is professional. --Dweller (talk) 15:52, 17 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment, Whilst the bulk of the UCD squad are based on players who attend UCD as students they are a professional football team who also sign external players. Stephen Roche gets paid for playing and is therefore playing at a professional level. Their players get payed and they also have players who don't and never have attended UCD. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.44.107.17 (talk • contribs) 17:07, 17 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • It's understandable that there's confusion here - Wikipedia's rules on notability are complex. I'll try to clarify. UCD play in the FAI first division. Roche may be a professional, but the league is not "fully professional"... not even the premier league in Ireland is. This means players need to pass the general notability criteria, rather than gaining automatic notability per WP:ATHLETE. For more information, see Wikipedia:WikiProject Football/Fully professional leagues, which explains things well. --Dweller (talk) 20:13, 17 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete. Non-notable football player, fails WP:N and WP:ATHLETE. --Carioca (talk) 21:51, 17 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment, if you look at every irish league club on wikipedia you will see that most squads have many players with wikipedia pages. does he not deserve a page the same as his team mates and fellow irish league players just because he shares a name with an extremely famous irish athlete. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ucdafc (talk • contribs) 23:00, 17 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment, article significantly improved and multiple sources now added.--Vintagekits (talk) 13:40, 19 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• You've done a great job - congratulations - but all of the sources provided are trivial, which means he won't meet WP:GNG I'm afraid. GiantSnowman 14:17, 19 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• I disagree. Read GNG "Significant coverage is more than a trivial mention but it need not be the main topic of the source material" - describing a players participation in the world student games and in Ireland 2nd highest league is more than a trivial mention. Now if he was only English!--Vintagekits (talk) 14:54, 19 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• That's a bit hypocritical, especially as you argued WP:NTEMP in the aforementioned AfD. --Jimbo^[online] 17:06, 19 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Actually my argument was the he was playing in the 104th level of English football.--Vintagekits (talk) 17:17, 19 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

That's where you went wrong, he plays fourth. --Jimbo^[online] 17:20, 19 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Not at the time of the nomination he didnt!--Vintagekits (talk) 17:22, 19 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Still 99 tiers off. --Jimbo^[online] 17:23, 19 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It still proves the British bias of the FOOTY Cabal members.--Vintagekits (talk) 10:48, 21 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep, has represented and captained his country at the World Student Games and now is playing in a professional football division. Multiple sources go beyong trivial mentions. Growing concensus that these players are notable.--Vintagekits (talk) 16:01, 19 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• You've been arguing the professional status of the League of Ireland Premier Division. This player only seems to have played in the First Division, which has no fully professional clubs. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 05:48, 20 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Bray were in the Premier division when he was with them.--Vintagekits (talk) 14:08, 20 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

But do you have a source that he actually played for Bray? Or is the figure in the infobox incorrect? GiantSnowman 14:18, 20 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, I can see there is a source already actually. The source given confirms he played in the League Cup for Bray, not the league - I have adjusted the article accordingly. GiantSnowman 14:23, 20 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The league cup is a notable competition with professional teams.--Vintagekits (talk) 20:23, 20 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment, There's a serious lack of understanding of the League of Ireland going on here. While not all teams are full time only two sides in the league, including the first division, are amateur; Wexford Youths and Mervue United, the others are all professional, including UCD. Also Sporting Fingal playing in the First Division are a full time professional outfit. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.47.42.32 (talk) 09:40, 21 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• According to this report in the Independant, there are only three professional teams in Ireland at the moment (Bohemians, Derry and Sligo). Also, I would find it highly doubtful that UCD (or any university team in the entire world) would be fully professional. Indeed, if you look at that source, you'll see UCD and Bray are both mentioned as one of last year's part-time teams. Bettia (bring on the trumpets!) 10:16, 21 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Clearly when the IP refers to teams as being "professional", he/she is using it in the sense of "not totally amateur" and therefore including semi-pro teams..... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 10:31, 21 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • The date of that article is January 2009. There is now a fully-professional Premier Division, the clubs not stated in that article are Dundalk, St Patrick's Athletic, Cork City, Galway United, who, according to Wikipedia itself, are professional.--86.41.68.222 (talk) 12:57, 21 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • You may want to read that article properly, as it refers to the upcoming season - "Next year's Premier Division will have just three completely full-time clubs..." Bettia (bring on the trumpets!) 13:57, 21 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • Yes, but the season starts in March, and by that time four other clubs had gone professional, and in a ten team league, that's a lot.--86.41.68.222 (talk) 14:08, 21 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep - Refer to my previous comments on the nasty little spackers running this attack on Irish football. Dahamsta (talk) 10:35, 21 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Oi - remain civil and don't engage in any personal attacks. GiantSnowman 11:27, 21 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• It would probably be easier to remain civil if there wasnt such an overwhelming Anglo-bias on here!--Vintagekits (talk) 11:41, 21 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Sigh. What Anglo-bias exactly? GiantSnowman 11:44, 21 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• I don't know how GiantSnowman is even qualified to be talking about these articles, since you are from Britain, I mean I've never heard of any of the players playing for Milton Keynes Dons but I don't delete them because people from England would know them. And of course Irish players would fail WP:N for you, for me all the Mk Dons players fail WP:N, but the people in Milton Keynes and in England might know them so I leave them alone.--FiftyDeadMenWalking (talk) 13:02, 21 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Where does where I come from, or any other editor for that matter, actually matter? An article should meet notability guidelines regardless of geography. GiantSnowman 13:05, 21 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• It does because you have never heard of almost every player playing in the League of Ireland, likewise I have never heard of any of the players playing for Aberdeen and a quick google search doesn't help me either.--FiftyDeadMenWalking (talk) 13:40, 21 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

How can you determine whether another user has "heard of" a player or not? --Jimbo^[online] 14:09, 21 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Well this is a AfD and its a discussion so everyone opinion is valid. Granted most novice editors are not so cynical to nimbly skip from one policy to another to protect "their articles" as the FOOTY Cabal are but that doesnt make their opinion less valid - in fact it probably makes it more valid because they dont hunt in a pack and are less biased.

FiftyDeadMenWalking, if you think the article should be kept then you should !vote "Keep" and dont be bullied otherwise.--Vintagekits (talk) 14:15, 21 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep He passes WP:N, and he has played for Bray Wanderers in the Premier Division who are professional and despite only playing in a league cup game, he has played in a professional team so I don't see why there's any problem in the first place with this article.--FiftyDeadMenWalking (talk) 14:27, 21 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• The only 'problem' is that the LoI isn't a fully-professional league, something which WP:ATHLETE stipulates. I've nothing against Irish players at all; but I do have a problem with players who don't meet notability. GiantSnowman 14:33, 21 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• There should be an exception in all fairness to leagues such as the League of Ireland, as the top level in a country of 6 million, despite not being fully-pro. It's as close as you can get to a fully professional league, eight out of ten clubs are professional. I know Roche doesn't play in a fully professional league, but the fact that he has done so on two occasions for a sustained period of time should be enough to keep him.--FiftyDeadMenWalking (talk) 14:38, 21 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment More of an effort should be made to keep these articles, improve them as much as possible like I have done to Gary Hamilton which has a never-ending line of external links. And everyone else, try and find sources and references instead of deciding to delete them first.--FiftyDeadMenWalking (talk) 14:31, 21 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • The external links listed in that article should be included in the prose as references. See WP:EL and WP:CITINGSOURCES for the correct useage. --Jimbo^[online] 14:35, 21 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • Sorry, I will change that now.--FiftyDeadMenWalking (talk) 14:39, 21 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete footballer fails criteria for sportspeople at WP:ATH as he has not played in a fully-professional tournament (league or cup). Also fails WP:GNG criteria due to lack of independent source coverage, refs regarding match reports/call-ups etc fail WP:NTEMP. --Jimbo^[online] 14:32, 21 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment, another British editor that is completely biased and absolutely hypocritical. Here is his !vote last week for a player that played non-league football and had weaker references. What a load of bollocks!--Vintagekits (talk) 14:56, 21 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• And what exactly is hypocritical about Jimbo's comments? GiantSnowman 15:04, 21 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• My vote was based on the multiple references that passed WP:GNG. Vintagekits seems to miss the numerous delete !votes on other English players I've made/nominated. PS - please remain civil. --Jimbo^[online] 15:06, 21 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Is it fuck! In my opinion you both !vote to keep a player in an English semi professional league who was less notable and had weaker references then this Irish player this week. Its a fuckin load of bollocks and ye both as biased as fuck.--Vintagekits (talk) 15:18, 21 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• CommentI think you all need a holiday, there are more important things in life! (Like going to Glentoran and Rangers matches)--FiftyDeadMenWalking (talk) 15:12, 21 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment This is ridiculous, I look around the site and see GAA players added to the site when they are not even professional and a professional league, even if the teams in it are not all professional are still part of it, in this case all GAA players should be deleted from the site aswell, as they have never played in a Professional GAA match as all matches are Amateur. (talk) 17:09, 21 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• GAA is the top level of the sport and receives substantial coverage in Ireland and some coverage outside. A delete argument on established GAA players would be similar to arguing that rugby union players pre-1995 were not notable, because that sport wasn't professional either. The subject here is a young Irish footballer who has made the odd appearance at a semi-professional level, and has only received a small amount of coverage in relation to his participation in student tournaments. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 20:36, 21 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment It's very confusing to follow this discussion but to clarify, UCD AFC have been involved in senior Irish football since the 1979. As Ireland only has two small divisions in senior football there isn't a huge distinction between playing in the First and Premier. Many clubs and players will drift between the two. UCD have won the FAI Senior Cup and participated in both the European Cup Winners Cup and Inter Toto Cup. UCD have also produced numerous Irish U-21, U-19 and U 18 internationals. Its players are professional in that they are paid to play football for the club. This quest to delete one of its players pages is very bizarre and an exercise in pedantry at its worst.
• Keep Recent additions by VK have established notability. BigDunc 18:07, 21 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep Player is notable and plays in a professional league, just because it's not a fully full time league does not mean it's not a professional league. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Patricksinnotts (talk • contribs) 18:17, 21 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep the recent improvements made to the article ensure that it passes WP:GNG. 86.45.144.215 (talk) 16:52, 21 August 2009 (UTC). A significant improvement has been made since this Afd was first nominated, and is now worthy of a place on Wikipedia.--Umberside (talk) 20:31, 21 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.