The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was merge to 2nd Ranger Battalion (United States). BJ^Talk 19:37, 18 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Stephen Trujillo[edit]

Stephen Trujillo (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View log)

Nothing of particular notability here.

• Left the military as a reserve Captain (not notable)
• was in a Ranger battalion and later Special Forces (not notable)
• earned the first Silver Star since Vietnam (the Vietnam War ended 10 years earlier in 1973, and there had been no major combat operations since that war. The Silver Star is also only the 3rd highest medal for valor, and recipients aren't necessarily notable. Thousands were awarded in the Vietnam War.)
• Mentioned in the State of the Union speech (not notable for wikipedia)
• met with Reagan (not notable)
• self published online memoir (not notable)
• included on a segment of a Discovery Channel program (not notable)
• became a DEA agent (not notable).

It reads as though the subject and author are one in the same, which becomes even more likely when one looks at the creators talk page where the editor self-references himself as Steverino Monkeybait (talk) 21:24, 3 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Merge and redirect to 2nd Ranger Battalion (United States) under a heading of notable alumni using the stuff about the Silver Star and Urgent Fury. Lose the rest about the personal life and DEA. I hate voting delete on guys like this. They are great Americans, but I don't see where he passes notability (even though if the world was fair, he'd be more notable than a guy who records the #200 song on Billboard), althought if someone wanted to argue his being mentioned by name in the State of the Union address (probably the most important speech a president makes each year) and feels that goes beyond BLP1E, I might be inclined to change the vote. Niteshift36 (talk) 23:17, 3 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Yeah, I kinda feel the same way. A million guys will do awesome stuff in the military, but will remain anonymous, but a 3rd rate actor warrants an article.--Monkeybait (talk) 15:57, 4 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment. We should treat this article in the same way that we would treat a similar article on a soldier from China, Russia, Iran or North Korea. Phil Bridger (talk) 19:57, 4 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Maybe that's why I suggested a re-direct to the unit he was most associated with. And if the President of the North Korea decides to use his post important speech of the year to single out a North Korean soldier, I'll give it due consideration as I did with this one.Niteshift36 (talk) 04:52, 6 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Living people-related deletion discussions. --Erwin85Bot (talk) 00:02, 5 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete Only real claim to notability is the Silver Star, and it is third level. nothing else is particularly notable. DGG (talk) 02:20, 6 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• I have to pause and reconsider when you vote for delete because it is so rare. Is there a reason you think that the redirect I suggested isn't a reasonable way to go? BTW, it is 3rd in precedence, not third level. There actually is a difference. Niteshift36 (talk) 04:52, 6 July 2009 (UTC)][reply]

It's not that rare. My ratio is about 1:3. And, yes, I think a redirect would be fine. Or a merge & redirect, if necessary.DGG (talk) 04:54, 17 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, –Juliancolton | ^Talk 04:26, 11 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Military-related deletion discussions. —AustralianRupert (talk) 08:31, 11 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete per nom - WP:BIO isn't met. Mr Trujillo isn't mentioned in the 2nd Ranger Battalion article, and there's no reason to include anything about him there so a redirect to it wouldn't be appropriate. Nick-D (talk) 11:28, 11 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I know he isn't mentioned, that's why I said merge and re-direct, not just redirect. There is a section in the article on US Army Rangers that lists notable alumni. Niteshift36 (talk) 14:11, 11 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • Yeah, I saw your comment - I don't think that Mr Trujillo is notable enough to be mentioned specifically at all in that article. Nick-D (talk) 00:08, 12 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment: This is a difficult one, as others appear to have identified. I can see some sort of notability, although it is subjective. It depends upon whether one considers a Silver Star notable. I do personally, however, as has been pointed out in other AfDs there have been thousands (about 130,000 I believe, although I could be wrong) awarded. Possibly it is made more notable by the fact that it was the first Silver Star awarded in about ten years (end of Vietnam War to Grenada). Additionally being mentioned in a President's State of the Union address seems like some sort of confirmation of notability, albeit perhaps temporary. I'd say that it would be fair enough to add mention of the subject and the award in the 2nd Ranger Battalion article (which could do with expansion, btw). — AustralianRupert (talk) 14:41, 11 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Merge and redirect per AustralianRubert's logic. There is *some* notability here, what with it being the first awarded since vietnam, but certainly not enough to warrant a full article. Covering him in the article on his Unit seems logical. Umbralcorax (talk) 18:32, 11 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Merge and redirect per Niteshift36, AustralianRupert et al. Being mentioned in the State of the Union address is an extremely selective criterion.John Z (talk) 20:45, 11 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment Given that there were almost no opportunities for American soldiers to earn the Silver Star (which is awarded for valor in the face of the enemy) between the withdrawal from Vietnam and Grenada, I don't see why there's any additional notability attached to Mr Trujillo's award - it was basically impossible for it to have been awarded earlier due to the criteria which governs how it can be earned. Nick-D (talk) 00:08, 12 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• I already added the info on Trujillo and other 2/75th alumni to that article. Nick has a good point. In addition, I'd add that yes, "thousands" were awarded during Vietnam, an action that lasted 16 years and involved 550,000 US military. In contrast, Urgent Fury lasted a week and involved 7,300 US military personnel. That's a fairly big difference. Niteshift36 (talk) 00:16, 12 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment: I am the creator of the page under discussion. Rather than simply advocate keeping the page, I would prefer to see other competent editors work on it. The following comments address issues raised above.
  • While it is true that the Silver Star is only the third-highest award for gallantry in action, Trujillo's SS is singular in that it was the only one known to be awarded to a member of the US Army for Operation Urgent Fury. Further, until the USMC elevated CPT Jeb Seagle's SS to the Navy Cross posthumously, the SS was the highest decoration bestowed during Urgent Fury. In retrospect, only one Navy Cross was awarded, and a quite limited number of SS's across all services that participated in the operation. Compared to the number of Bronze Star medals (BSMs) awarded during the operation, which numbered in the thousands, the distinction is stark. While the article correctly notes that other SS's were, indeed, awarded to members of classified US Army units, those decorations are still not public record. It is to be hoped, perhaps, that they will be addressed on their own Wiki page in the future. In the meantime, as far as the public record is concerned, the US Army awarded one SS for Operation Urgent Fury. Whether this distinction is sufficient for mention in Wiki is debatable.
  • Operation Urgent Fury was a relatively small operation, and as has been noted, it lasted for a short period of time. It was, however, the first US operation since the conclusion of the Vietnam conflict that saw the awarding of decorations for valor. It is possible that SS's were awarded for actions during Operation Eagle Claw, the attempted rescue of American hostages in Iran, but if this is the case, they remain classified and are not part of the public record. As Trujjilo's SS was the first awarded to any US serviceman since the end of the Vietnam war, it could be considered notable. Trujillo's SS was also the first one awarded to any member of SOCOM, which at that time was a new command, and it remained the only publicly acknowledged SS awarded to any member of the US Army until Operation JUST CAUSE, in 1989, several years later. It is perhaps noteworthy that the US Army apparently awarded a single SS to a US soldier for actions during that conflict, as well, though again, numerous classified decorations are not a part of the public record. In US Army promotional materials of the era, Trujillo was termed "the most highly decorated soldier since the Vietnam war." Trujillo was featured in "advertisements" on Armed Forces Radio and other media. These advertisements are still aired today, in both Afghanistan and Iraq. While Trujillo may not be a celebrity, he is famous among members of the US Army, and particularly among US Army Rangers, who remember him as the first Ranger recipient of an award for heroism of the modern-era Ranger battalions. Whether this rises to a level of notability sufficient for inclusion in Wiki is debatable.
  • It is possible that Trujillo's true notability is in his inclusion in the list of so-called "Skutnicks," meaning those people who are mentioned in the State of the Union Address. The term refers to Mr. Lenny Skutnick, who was the first individual so recognized by President Reagan in a State of the Union Address in 1982. Trujillo was among the first US military members to be so distinguished, after Senator Jeremiah Denton, who was also a former POW, in 1982. For an American soldier to be acknowledged by the President in this address is still quite a distinction, as can be confirmed by consulting a listing of people so mentioned since President Reagan began the practice. It is probable that the only other US Army Ranger so recognized was CPT Nate Self. In Trujillo's case, his mention at the time (1984) received wide coverage in both print and television media, and was discussed subsequently in studies of presidential communications by scholars like Kathleen Hall Jamieson and by the Reverend William Sloane Coffin. Whether people mentioned in State of the Union Addresses are more notable because there are more of them year after year, or whether they are less notable because there are more of them year after year, is a question that, again, is debatable. It is not indisputable in my opinion that Trujillo's status as a "Skutnick" meets the criteria for inclusion in Wiki, but it is, along with most other comments addressed here, debatable.
  • Trujillo's comments on Operation Urgent Fury comprised a central part of the Discovery Channel episode. His recollections of his participation in the operation were featured, not merely included. According to a transcript of his interview, it should be noted that Trujillo's narrative made not one mention of the SS or the State of the Union Address. It is probable that the producers may not have even known about them.
  • Trujillo's authorship of his blog, which has not been updated in quite some time, may be more significant than initially meets the eye. It is a primary resource for researchers writing about the modern-era Ranger Battalions, and about Operation Urgent Fury in particular. At present, the author of the book Kill Bin Ladin is writing about these subjects, and his work draws extensively on the contents of Trujillo's blog, which is separate from his "online memoir." As for the memoir, according to a publication of the US Army Ranger Association, Trujillo has received an offer to publish, and is "doing one last rewrite."
  • Discussion in the entry of Trujillo's authorship of New York Times Op-Ed pieces during his work with DEA may merit expansion. The articles were certainly the first that noted a relationship between the Shining Path organization in Peru and narcotics trafficking. This linkage was based on Trujillo's eyewitness experiences in the Upper Huallaga Valley, and it was not a popular revelation in the US government at the time. The articles are often cited in the literature on narcotics trafficking. Whether this matter rises to the degree of notability required for inclusion in Wiki is, like everything else in the entry, debatable.
• Per WP:BIO, "notability" is defined as "significant, interesting, or unusual enough to deserve attention or to be recorded." Notability "in the sense of being "famous", or "popular"... is secondary." Further, "A person is presumed to be notable if he or she has been the subject of published secondary source material which is reliable, intellectually independent, and independent of the subject." The question of Trujlllo's notability may be sufficient to meet these criteria, particularly when considering "If the depth of coverage is not substantial, then multiple independent sources may be needed to prove notability."
• Trujillo is mentioned in "multiple independent sources." It must be emphasized, however, that WP:BIO states that "trivial coverage of a subject by secondary sources may not be sufficient to establish notability." Further, WP:BIO states that a person should have "received a notable award or honor." Whether Trujillo's SS, mention in the 1984 State of the Union Address, and status as a "Skutnick" rises to this level is debatable.
• Additionally, WP:BIO states that a person should have "made a widely recognized contribution that is part of the enduring historical record in his or her specific field." Within the community of serving and retired US Army Rangers, Trujillo's notability certainly meets this criteria. Whether this is sufficient to merit an entry in Wiki is debatable. While there is no category or specific criteria listed for US servicemen or servicewomen under WP:BIO, "Creative professionals," those who are "regarded as an important figure or (are) widely cited by their peers or successors," qualify.
• Finally, per WP:BLP1E: "If reliable sources cover the person only in the context of a particular event, and if that person otherwise remains, or is likely to remain, low profile, then a separate biography is unlikely to be warranted." Trujillo's notability under this criteria is also debatable. Estéban (talk) 02:37, 15 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep. Esteban's lengthy response here convinces me that my instinct to vote keep, based on multiple mentions by Reagan and the awards, as well as the long-term notability his temporary notability grew into, is sufficient for a Keep. I will say, however, that the articl reads as bloated for the subject, and needs a serious cutting down to a length appropriate for the subject. ThuranX (talk) 16:19, 17 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.