The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Draftify. See now Draft:Teppei Miwa. Sandstein 09:21, 8 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Teppei Miwa[edit]

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Teppei Miwa (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)
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Undersourced article packed with redlinked events, shows a gymnast who although has competed at national level has never won anything at national level. Lacks SIGCOV, fails WP:GNG; WP:SPORTSPERSON. Alexandermcnabb (talk) 05:49, 15 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • Is that a reasonable request? This is enwiki. This article links to NO Japanese language article. The English article is being judged, during New Page Patrol, 'as found'. You get an English Google and an evaluation of the sources presented as part of the free deal. You want more than that, you have to buy a subscription. Best Alexandermcnabb (talk) 15:38, 15 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Likewise, search for native-language sources if the subject has a name in a non-Latin alphabet (such as Japanese or Greek), which is often in the lede." JTtheOG (talk) 23:57, 16 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Alexandermcnabb: Yes. you are required to do WP:BEFORE prior to nominating an article, regardless of which language the sources may be in. Here are a few sources I found with a brief search of "三輪哲平 体操競技" (the first part is his name, the second part is "artistic gymnastics"):
  • I wouldn't be surprised if there were more possible sources out there. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 23:26, 18 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    No one is required to perform BEFORE, neither on the AfD page where BEFORE resides (which is not a policy or guideline) nor on any of the relevant policy or guideline pages. JoelleJay (talk) 06:50, 27 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Alexandermcnabb Why do you keep saying that when Teppei Miwa was clearly the silver medalist of the 2018 Voronin Cup? Type "2018 Voronin Cup" on Google on there'll be a picture of him on the podium. NguyenDuyAnh1995 (talk) 11:35, 27 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Guerillero Parlez Moi 12:19, 25 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • @JoelleJay in WP:INDISCRIMINATE, there’s no requirement of the sources as you said, & in WP:WHATSIGCOV there’s no compulsory of prose as well. As the source meets the WP:GNG criterion of significant coverage (describing the gymnast’s information directly & in details), reliable (as FIG is reliable in gymnastics) & independent (as the FIG is independent of the gymnast himself), the article passes WP:GNG. NguyenDuyAnh1995 (talk) 20:45, 27 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    @NguyenDuyAnh1995 No, stats databases are not SIGCOV and do not contribute to notability. See WP:SPORTCRIT: Trivial coverage of a subject by secondary sources may be used to support content in an article, but it is not sufficient to establish notability. This includes listings in database sources with low, wide-sweeping generic standards of inclusion ... Although statistics sites may be reliable sources, they are not sufficient by themselves to establish notability. FIG is also not independent, as it is the governing body for his sport and therefore has a vested interest in the type and amount of coverage he receives. JoelleJay (talk) 22:19, 27 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    @JoelleJay The criteria above is applied to trivial coverage. If the whole page is about one person, not listings in database sources with low, wide-sweeping generic standards of inclusion, it’s not WP:TRIVIALMENTION. Also, according to Cambridge dictionary, vested interest means a strong personal interest in something because you could get an advantage from it. What can the FIG get advantage from Teppei Miwa’s birthdate, birthplace, high school/college team, idol & injury information? NguyenDuyAnh1995 (talk) 23:57, 27 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    @JoelleJay The Fig link is also not statistics. Statistical database typically contain parameter data and the measured data for these parameters. NguyenDuyAnh1995 (talk) 00:10, 28 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    The criteria above are defining trivial coverage and giving examples of it specific to sports, including what are clearly sports statistics databases (not the same thing as a "statistical database"). This is not debatable. See, e.g., the numerous AfDs where results databases/stats profiles (and governing sports bodies) were explicitly rejected from counting toward GNG. And what purpose do you think FIG, or FIFA, or the IOC serves? Each is focused on promoting their sport(s), which obviously includes promoting positive coverage of their competitors. It also means their interest in a subject is not reflective of the general public's interest in it, just like how student body president candidates profiled in a college newspaper do not reflect the actual notability of those people outside the college. JoelleJay (talk) 01:17, 28 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    @JoelleJay Firstly, just because some deletion discussion mentioned it doesn’t make it right, especially when it’s not written on any WP article. The FIG link is not trivial coverage as in WP:TRIVIALMENTION, or in WP:SPORTCRIT (no definition). Secondly, google “ what is statistics database” & see if there is any results showing any definition different from Statistical database, as you claim. Thirdly, how can creating a profile of an athlete help to promote the sport? Does that lure more fans & investments? No. It would be vested interest with the teams that supply Miwa with facilities & medical condition like Juntento University, Seifu Highschool, or JGA if he competes in international tournaments, as his results & prize will bring money & reputation to them. But the FIG does not. They can get advantage of the popularity of those like Simone Biles, Aliya Mustafina...but through their performance & media coverage, not profiles on their websites. NguyenDuyAnh1995 (talk) 04:47, 28 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    "Some deletion discussion" -- I linked multiple AfDs where sports database sources were uncontroversially disregarded when considering GNG. And it is written down: our guidelines literally exclude statistics sites/databases, which FIG and other things like sports-reference.com (the very first result when I type in "sports statistics database") and soccerway etc. indisputably are. And if you don't understand how a business can profit off of promoting its membership, or why its coverage of its own members reflects the interests of the organization rather than the world at large (in the exact same way a corporate profile written by HR does not demonstrate independent detailed coverage of someone's career), then you need to seriously take some time familiarizing yourself with en.wp community standards before contributing at AfD. At this point you're getting into WP:IDHT territory. JoelleJay (talk) 05:43, 28 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    @JoelleJay in sports-reference.com, data is collected statistically with parameters & measured values as it is defined in Statistical database. So the FIG link has nothing related to whatever statistic. You can see it in the example of Brenna Stewart. Also, as I said before, Miwa’s profile only benefit the teams that supplies him with facilities & medical condition, such as Seifu, Juntendo or JGA. He’s not a member of the FIG, but is for his club & national team. NguyenDuyAnh1995 (talk) 06:19, 28 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Also, pure results lists are PRIMARY data so are further excluded from GNG. JoelleJay (talk) 22:28, 27 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
User has been blocked for socking in this AfD JoelleJay (talk) 04:29, 30 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Fats40boy11 so I see that you can’t access to the source, which means you have no idea if the source is significant coverage, reliable & independent. Hence your “fails GNG” claim is invalid. 113.190.111.42 (talk) 17:47, 28 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    It is valid as it isn’t viewable to me or anyone else in these regions. I don’t know what’s in the article, and you haven’t provided other sources. As I said below, please provide other sources which all regions can view. Fats40boy11 (talk) 17:53, 28 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    @Fats40boy11: Here is the link to the Yahoo Japan feature article via Wayback Machine, which you should be able to access. Cielquiparle (talk) 22:56, 28 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Thank you @Cielquiparle as always. I’ll have a look at it in more depth in the morning when I have a greater opportunity to go through it thoroughly. Fats40boy11 (talk) 23:02, 28 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Comment one of the delete vote above says that Yahoo News Japan isn’t available in UK or EEA & can’t see it, which means he has no idea if the source is significant coverage, reliable & independent. Therefore, his “fails GNG” claim is invalid. 113.190.111.42 (talk) 17:47, 28 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

No it doesn’t. I can’t see anything and so therefore cannot verify it (unless if some in the UK or EEA can find a way round this). One source is not everything, and you are grasping at straws. From what I have, the article fails WP:GNG. Unless you can provide other sources, this remains the case. Please do not claim a vote is ‘invalid’ because it does no agree with your point of view. Fats40boy11 (talk) 17:50, 28 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Fats40boy11 you can only claim that the source fails WP:GNG if it doesn’t any of the criterion, not because you can’t view it. In Vietnam or Laos, BBC News is forbidden, so does that mean anyone living there can claim that any citation from that website fails GNG even though it meets every criteria? Or the same thing with China & tons of websites forbidden there? Take the example of grading a restaurant with Michelin stars, can you claim that it fails the criterion because you have never eaten there? Your claim is invalid because the problem is yours, not the source. According to Is it down right now? Yahoo News Japan is still working. 113.190.111.42 (talk) 18:32, 28 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Again, do not claim any point of view is invalid, it will only cause more problems down the line. I will no longer engage with you in discussion if you do this again.
    I have explained how I cannot view it, and will not explain my previous points again. We should wherever possible use sources that everyone can see no matter of their location. Not everyone has the means to get around this. The same would go for Vietnam or Laos. If your confident that the article passes WP:GNG, then prove it by other sources. I am basing my judgement on the whole article, not one source that I cannot currently view. In my own WP:BEFORE, I have not found anything. I have repeatedly asked for other sources in a respectful manner, but you have been unable to provide and have instead tried to attack and shut down my view as invalid. Fats40boy11 (talk) 18:45, 28 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Quote from WP:SOURCEACCESS: Do not reject reliable sources just because they are difficult or costly to access. Some reliable sources are not easily accessible. For example, an online source may require payment, and a print-only source may be available only through libraries. Rare historical sources may even be available only in special museum collections and archives. If you have trouble accessing a source, others may be able to do so on your behalf. 113.190.111.42 (talk) 19:34, 28 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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