The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 12:50, 22 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The Red Sense[edit]

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I found no reliable sources and no proof that it was released to the public. I found a blog review where a copy was supplied by the director. Fails WP:NF. SL93 (talk) 19:07, 27 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: A frequently used Wordpress source in the article says that it was released. This does seem like a likely hoax. SL93 (talk) 19:09, 27 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Film-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 19:58, 27 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: Not a hoax. What we have here is simply a film by a Canbodian filmmaker that has not received much English-language coverage. I did find RS CANOE, in speaking about a planned film series, stating at the botom of THIS page, "Antonio Graceffo will host a new film series, called "Martial Arts Odyssey," directed by Khmer Australian director, Tim Pek. Tim is well-known for his touching film about the Khmer Rouge genocide, "The Red Sense." While we will need input from Wikipedians with access to Cambodian-language sources, this film is not a hoax. Schmidt, ^{MICHAEL Q.} 21:25, 27 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. I couldn't find anything approaching significant coverage in reliable sources of this film.--Michig (talk) 21:27, 27 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: I found this. SL93 (talk) 21:35, 27 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Excellent find. The "Official blog" of the CamboFest Cambodian Film Festivals does offer that the film screened there and that director Tim Pek won an award. Shall we acknowledge the possibility of systemic bias and seek input from those Wikipedians able to find and offer Camodian sources? Schmidt, ^{MICHAEL Q.} 21:37, 27 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  - I found this from a martial arts author. I would have rather found these earlier. SL93 (talk) 21:40, 27 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  - Sure, although I think that there is enough now. SL93 (talk) 21:42, 27 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  - Certainly, if anyone can find sufficient coverage in any language I would be happy to keep here. I'm not convinced what has been found so far constitutes reliable sources though. --Michig (talk) 21:45, 27 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    - Asia Sentinel appears to be reliable. SL93 (talk) 21:46, 27 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
      - Not totally convinced. I'd like to see some coverage in more clear-cut reliable sources.--Michig (talk) 21:52, 27 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
        About page - Three of them have experience with notable newspapers. SL93 (talk) 21:55, 27 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
        Never mind. According to another article by the same author, he is in the film himself. "starring Grand Master San Kim Saen and Antonio Graceffo". I support deletion. SL93 (talk) 22:07, 27 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
        Antonio Graceffo is NOT in this film... but is working with the director on a different film series. My own thought is that it was The Red Sense that caused Graceffo to seek out Tim Pek to direct a new Graceffo project. With Graceffo himself ensuring English coverage of this earlier film by a director with whom he will be working, we still need to get input from Cabodian Wikiepdians. Schmidt, ^{MICHAEL Q.} 22:23, 27 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
        I read it wrong, but that is still not independent of the subject. I posted on the Cambodia Wikiproject. SL93 (talk) 22:31, 27 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: I'm not sure if I think that Cambodian sources can be found. The award was for best local film which gives me more doubts. SL93 (talk) 22:35, 27 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- And it is simple to find Cambodian sources with the Cambodian Google search and I see nothing there as well. There is also Google Translate for a rough translation if need be. SL93 (talk) 22:40, 27 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  - Well, to be fair... the search you used was for Vignean Krohom, the Anglic spelling of the actual Cambodian title. At the bottom of the film's website we see the Cambodia-language spelling [1] in its non-Anglic format. We need Cambodian-reading Wikipedians. At least it did have public screenings and is not a hoax. Schmidt, ^{MICHAEL Q.} 23:20, 27 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Australia-related deletion discussions. —Grahame (talk) 00:25, 29 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Film has revieved local interst coverage in "Making sense of atrocities", Oakleigh Monash/Springvale Dandenong Leader, 29 November 2006 and in David, Rebecca (5 March 2008), "Tim's tale from heart", Oakleigh Monash/Springvale Dandenong Leader

Phnom Penh Post has multiple mentions. Barton, Cat (23 August 2007), "Cambodia film makers aim to rebuild tattered image", Phnom Penh Post has a paragraph on the film in a long article about Cambodian cinema. Rahn, Cornelius (12 January 2009), "TV show parodies Phnom Penh life", Phnom Penh Post when discussing "CamboFest awards The Golden Buffalo 2008, Cambodia’s small-scale equivalent of the Academy Awards" says "Among the Cambodian contributions, The Red Sense by Tim Pek swayed the jury with its portrayal of a woman’s quest to find her father’s killer. " "Siem Reap Scene...", Phnom Penh Post, 15 January 2009 says on the subject of CamboFest film and video festival: "The Post published some of the major festival Golden Buffalo award winners on Monday, and here is the full list:" ... "Local showcase winner. The Red Sense, directed by Tim Pek [Cambodia/Australia]" duffbeerforme (talk) 03:40, 30 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Delete, happy to change my view if the Cambodian Wikiproject can provide some Khmer-language sources, but otherwise this looks to be a rather unremarkable independent film. Getting a feature film made is a fantastic achievement of course, but it doesn't automatically mean notability. Lankiveil ^{(speak to me)} 03:26, 1 January 2012 (UTC).[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwyrxian (talk) 14:48, 5 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Note I relisted this specifically because of the new sources found by Duffbeerforme--I'd like to see comments on whether editors think that those are sufficient to meet WP:FILM or WP:GNG

Keep per sources found and offered. We have the admitted difficulties in finding sources that deal with Khmer-language Cambodian films, and I'm impressed by User:Duffbeerforme finding what he did. As sources are available even if not in the article, I dropped him a note suggesting he add them to the article. Even if not worldwide, if we have notability to Cambodia, we have notability enough for en.Wikipedia. Schmidt, ^{MICHAEL Q.} 20:18, 9 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Keep, with kudos to Duffbeerforme for his finds. Obviously, it would help if those sources were added to the article, but they are enough to pass the GNG and hence this AfD. Nolelover ^Talk^·^Contribs 14:18, 14 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. Do any of the sources identified above constitute significant coverage? From the descriptions above, it doesn't sound like they do.--Michig (talk) 15:42, 14 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Criteria one of NFILM: "The film is widely distributed and has received full length reviews by two or more nationally known critics." I can only guess, but the provided sources and noted award certainly make it seem as though this film was widely distributed and critiqued ("Tim's tale from heart"). Granted, I'm AGF'ing a lot here, but the notability reqs for movies aren't terribly high. Nolelover ^Talk^·^Contribs 17:25, 14 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  To User:Michig: If the sources offered by User:Duffbeerforme share information about the film in a more-than-trivial fashion, even if the film is not always the main focus of the sources, then we have a meeting of WP:GNG and WP:NRVE. We do not expect nor demand that something notable to Australia and Cambodia would have world-wide coverage.
  
  To User:Nolelover: Good points... the "criteria" are not mandated requirements. They only describe circumstances for older films that if existing could encourage a search for more-than-trivial sources. The "criteria" do not have to exist in order for sources to exist. That we have coverage in Australia and Cambodia for a film screened in Australia and Cambodida is expected and logical. To qualify as applicable, reviews for a film screened in Australia dnd Cambodia do not have to be from "United-States-known" or "internationally-known" journalists. Schmidt, ^{MICHAEL Q.} 18:56, 14 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  "If the sources offered by User:Duffbeerforme share information about the film in a more-than-trivial fashion" - that's what I'm trying to establish. Many of them clearly do not. If anyone can confirm that some of them do, then we have justification for keeping.--Michig (talk) 19:25, 14 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  Which is why I added this to the Cambodia delsort below. :) Input from Khmer language-reading Wikipedians would be helpful... as would Duffbeerforme offering translations. Schmidt, ^{MICHAEL Q.} 21:35, 14 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Cambodia-related deletion discussions. —Schmidt, ^{MICHAEL Q.} 18:56, 14 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.

Relisting comment: This is only NOW in the Cambodia delsort. Just as with the last relisting, Duffbeerforme offered numerous sources and input from Khmer language would be of great value.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Schmidt, ^{MICHAEL Q.} 21:41, 14 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Keep real film, shot in Australian and Cambodia, and shown at a film festival. There are a number of aritcles written about it. Deathlibrarian (talk) 05:12, 15 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.