The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was redirect‎ to The Wheel of Time#Setting. If there is any content worthy of merging, the history is available. RL0919 (talk) 08:42, 27 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

The World of the Wheel[edit]

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Most of the article is written in-universe. Sources do not show significant coverage of this topic. Z1720 (talk) 05:46, 19 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Literature and Television. Z1720 (talk) 05:46, 19 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Redirect to The Wheel of Time#Setting. I've been working on making the World of the Wheel article irrelevant by improving The Wheel of Time and diverting redirects, and will continue to do so. There is some valuable info here but it can be incorporated elsewhere with sources. This article was apparently created by a now-blocked editor trying to mimic World of A Song of Ice and Fire but not committed enough to actually source it.— TAnthony^Talk 18:04, 19 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

FYI, condensed and sourced coverage of all the topics in this article (including geography) now exists in The Wheel of Time. As Piotrus and I have noted, this more detailed article can always be revived in the future with sources when editors have the time and desire to do so.— TAnthony^Talk 18:48, 21 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Fictional elements-related deletion discussions. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 20:34, 19 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Keep while the title may be a bit atypical, this is essentially a "World/universe of the Wheel of Time" article, which may well pass muster. I don't see a BEFORE, and while I don't want to in any way dis what TAnthony has been doing, the decision to have such an article or not, per franchise, tends to be an editorial decision rather than a policy mandate. (Oh, and GNG is met because the topic is "The Wheel of Time" which is clearly notable) Jclemens (talk) 00:08, 20 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Comment With respect to WP:BKD, it is certainly not the case that a derivative article about a thing from a self-evidently notable book or series is notable just by association. There needs to be significant coverage about the setting from reliable sources, and that isn't in the article. That the citations allude to a Wheel of Time Companion is a good indication there may be lively commentary about the Wheel of Time series out there. I agree a WP:BEFORE is necessary here before assessing whether to keep or redirect the article. ＶＲＸＣＥＳ (talk) 03:01, 20 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Again, the topic of "The World of the Wheel" is "The Wheel of Time" franchise, much like the topic of a "list of X" is "X". This is a nuanced thing, so I don't fault people for getting it, but the title of an article is not always the topic for which notability must be established. As you note, there appear to be multiple dead tree sources addressing this fictional world. I haven't read any of them, or the series itself, so I'm commenting from a place of policy understanding but topic ignorance. Jclemens (talk) 03:41, 20 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
This article was just created in 2021, perhaps the editor had great intentions but it has always just been a detailed, somewhat crufty list of locations not really tied to the plot arc, and some exhausting coverage of channeling and the "magical" aspects. With basically no sourcing. I've been expanding The Wheel of Time#Setting in a succinct way, with sources. If I add a couple of paragraphs there about the geography, I believe that the key aspects of this article will be adequately covered between The Wheel of Time and List of The Wheel of Time characters. Redirecting this article now is harmless, it can always be revived at a later date if someone has the time and interest in making something decent out of it. And to clarify my previous comments, the current version of this article is nearly identical to how it was before I touched it, except for the lead. Thanks.— TAnthony^Talk 04:37, 20 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I'd appreciate some guidance on where your thinking is coming from. Without secondary sources providing context, I would have thought a page describing a fictional concept, thing or setting enters the territory of WP:NOTPLOT, with the following policy question being whether it can be concisely summarised in the primary article. I don't have experience in this area and am happy to be wrong on this. ＶＲＸＣＥＳ (talk) 06:10, 20 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Notability is not inherited like that. The topic here is not The Wheel of Time franchise itself, but its setting. The parallel with "List of X" is completely nonsensical. And while notability is a necessary criterion for a stand-alone article, it is not a sufficient one (WP:NOPAGE). TompaDompa (talk) 17:16, 20 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Of course notability is not inherited, but "not inherited" is not relevant when two articles share the same underlying topic. WP:NOTINHERITED is an essay portion, fundamentally about personal relationships and has nothing to do with identical vs. adjacent fictional topics. Jclemens (talk) 20:28, 20 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
But they don't share the same underlying topic. Surely you understand the difference between a work of fiction and an in-universe element of that fiction? Surely you understand the difference between The Hobbit and Bilbo Baggins? TompaDompa (talk) 01:16, 21 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Here's a piece on Tor.com (which in the past has been treated as reliable, and considered independent of the book publisher) that discusses the subject holistically: [1]. There are some promising academic works out there but I haven't had a chance to review them yet. —siro χ o 03:44, 20 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Another related article also by Tor.com, slightly narrower in focus, is The Striking Geology of The Wheel of Time. Daranios (talk) 16:28, 20 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Tor Books was the publisher of the Wheel of Time series, so I do not think that the sources fulfil the independent requirement outlined in WP:GNG. Z1720 (talk) 19:07, 20 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Tor.com is an online magazine published by the same publisher. The independence is at the same level as any other magazine published by a book publisher. It's not in fact the voice of the publisher or any imprint. I had voiced the same concern, and it has been considered independent in the past. I investigated myself and agree. Their about page[2] and FAQ[3] also reflect this, a choice quote Tor.com is publisher neutral, and we operate in our own special corner of Macmillan, the publishing company that also encompasses Tor Books.

Of course, we'd almost certainly need a source independent of Tor.com as well to meet GNG for a fictional element like this. I haven't been able to dive to deep into the academic sources yet. One was an edited student work, but probably not sufficient for GNG. Another provided coverage of political aspects of the books, without getting to deep into the fictional geography, borderline probably. Haven't found anything sure to be convincing yet though there is more to investigate. —siro χ o 18:27, 21 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Science fiction and fantasy. Daranios (talk) 16:28, 20 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Redirect. While there is small chance this is notable, what we have is a gigantic unreferenced plot summary that violates MOS:PLOT and WP:GNG, and of course, WP:V. Redirect, no prejudice to seeing this restored with sources.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:41, 21 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Comment The academic paper Bards and Gleemen: from the Middle Ages to Robert Jordan’s The Wheel of Time has 1.5 pages directly on the subject, focussing on the broad concept and magic, ah, pardon me, One Power, rather than geography. Plus some more comments here and there. Daranios (talk) 16:13, 21 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
The PhD thesis QUESTING FEMINISM: NARRATIVE TENSIONS AND MAGICAL WOMEN IN MODERN FANTASY analyzes how feminist ideas are central elements in Robert Jordan's fantasy world (while I have my own ideas on this...). Another tor.com article Robert Jordan: The American Tolkien has some more general analysis and comparison with Tolkien's Middle-Earth. Daranios (talk) 12:01, 22 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Redirect to The Wheel of Time#Setting. I think this topic is probably notable, the content could most likely be verified at least by primary sources, and I will be sorry to see a few details go which are not yet present at that target (like a bit more on Shara than where it is). But overall thanks to TAnthony's work the target is just in better shape (sourced for one) than what we have here. Maybe the sources dug up here so far will be used by someone in the future to further expand either there or back here. Daranios (talk) 20:09, 21 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Merge to The Wheel of Time#Setting per Daranios. I believe this could be notable but a merge allows us to revisit this discussion in the future. Archrogue (talk) 18:43, 25 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Redirect to The Wheel of Time#Setting: per the above participants. बिनोद थारू (talk) 03:05, 27 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.