- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep because nobody seems to support outright deletion of this article. Editorial options such as merge, redirect etc. should be discussed on the article talk page, not here. Sandstein 22:33, 1 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Vishnuism (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View log)
Separate article as a sub-article to Vaishnavism was considered for merging into a section of Vaishnavism. Sufficient references given for a separate article. Consensus required as to deletion and re-direct with loss of references and material. Wikidās ॐ 12:08, 27 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Three options are being proposed
:# Merge - create a subsection that retains all material of this article in Vaishnavism article
# Delete - remove article as not notable
:# Part-merge - retain the article as a sub-article of Vaishnavism, (current situation) --Wikidās ॐ 12:16, 27 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments by --Redtigerxyz (talk) 15:41, 27 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- This is not the right place to discuss this, but still Merge
- Vishnuism was a redirect to Vaishnavism as of 4 May. [1]
- Link to Merger discussion and counter-references challenging "Vishnuism is a sub-sect of Vaishnavism" Talk:Vaishnavism#Vishnuism_Merge.
- All info in Vishnuism is already merged in Vaishnavism. In fact, 4 May version of Vaishnavism has had all the info, that new article (former redirect) Vishnuism, formed on 4 May, claims as new info. The additional info is merged or challenged. 20 July version of Vaishnavism, when redirect was restored.
- [2][3][4]Links identifying Vishnuism and Vaishnavism, notably Britannica, dictionaries like Websters, thefreedictionary.com. Please note phrase "Vishnuism or Vaishnavism" phrase and NOT "Vishnuism is sub-sect of Vaishnavism"
- While Vishnuism is often used as a replacement word of Vaishnavism, it is a sub-class to Vaishnavism, as it refers to a category of worshipers who suppose that Vishnu worship is higher then worship of Rama or Krishna within Vaishnavism. It is therefore a sub-branch of Vaishnavism. Other two sub branches are identified as (for example in Telugu) - as the "branches of Vaishnavism" — the Rama cult and the Krishna cult. Two distinct cults of Rama and Krishna are sub branches also see: p.1197
- Sri Vaishnavism is clearly a form of Vishnuism, and they are known as followers of Ramanujacharya. However followers of Vallabha, Nimbarka and Chaitanya are of Krishnaism (see: Complete list of sources for the subject:Wikipedia:WikiProject Krishnaism/Bibilography) - another sub-branch. Followers of Ramananda are called Ramandandis and are specifically focused on Rama worship as the highest form of worship. Thus they are also a separate branch. These are orthodox branches of Vaishnavism. Un-orthodox branches are for example tantric vaishnava schools.
- Vaishnavism is only sometimes equated to Vishnuism because of linguistics, however first step in evolution of Vaishnavism was worship of Krishna and identification of him with minor vedic deity VishnuThe History and Culture of the Indian People/HARDY, Friedhelm E.: Krsnaism. In: The Encyclopedia of Religion 8 (Ed. Mircea Eliade) (1987)387/2 - 392/1/ Also see: Page 269-270 (G. Widengren (1997). Historia Religionum: Handbook for the History of Religions - Religions of the Present. Boston: Brill Academic Publishers, ISBN 90-04-02598-7),(KLOSTERMAIER, Klaus K. (2005). A Survey of Hinduism. State University of New York Press; 3 edition, p.206. ISBN 0791470814)
- Just because some dictionary sources identify it as one we are obliged to maintain NPOV in this and not to present views that are only based on Tertiary sources. Please see PSTS. Our policies do not allow to proclaim one version or sects' view a definition to all other, as we have to maintain neutral point of view, where the definition has to account for many branches of Vaishnavism and definition of each branch without bias. Wikipedia articles should rely on reliable, published secondary sources, not just primary and certainly not on tertiary sources.
- Probably the best secondary sources that clearly establishes the difference of the different sub-branches of Vaishnavism are:
- Jan GONDA Vaisnavism and Saivism and Minor Religious Systems
- Jan GONDA The Concept of personal god
- RG BHANDARKAR, Vaishnavism and Saivism, Varanasi, 1965
- MATCHETT, Freda: Krsna, Lord or Avatara? The relationship between Krsna and Visnu in the context of the avatara myth as presented by the Harivamsa, the Visnupurana and the Bhagavatapurana. (Curzon Studies in Asian Religion). Richmond 2001
- Based on this and to comply with neutral point of view all schools of Vaishnavism (ie Rama/Krishna/Vishnu centered traditions) should be summarized in one article of Vaishnavism (summary style) and should have their respective sections without one single bias.
- --17:30, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
- Comments by --Redtigerxyz (talk) 13
- 20, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
- A Survey of Hinduism By Klostermaier says that the first Vishnu was worshiped as Vasudeva Krishna and Narayana, but does not say "Vaishnavism is only sometimes equated to Vishnuism", this may be OR or a misinterpretation of the text.
- I think Britannica is a well-respected encyclopedia, quoted in many wiki articles. We can't just ignore it? In form, my dear friend Wikidas who is the major contributor to Vishnuism has used Britannica as a reference in the article. Quoting from Britannica:
Vaishnavism: Hindu sect also called Vishnuism, or Viṣṇuism, Sanskrit Vaiṣṇavism,
Main: worship of the god Vishnu and of his incarnations, principally as Rāma and as Krishna. It is one of the major forms of modern Hinduism—with Śaivism and Shaktism (Śāktism).
- I request my friend Wikidas to please give the page nos. in Gonda, J. (1993). Aspects of Early Visnuism. Motilal Banarsidass Publ., which the articles first ref that explicitly says "Vishnuism is one of the branches of Vaishnavism". Also, if possible, those in Vaisnavism, Saivism and Minor Religious Systems By Ramkrishna G. Bhandarkar. Thanks.
- Merge: Per Redtigerxyz. There are numberous sources that show that Vishnuism and Vaishnavism refer to the same thing; it is the worship of Vishnu as the Supreme God. Krishnaism or Gaudiya Vaishnavism is just a sub-sect which swaps Vishnu with Krishna just like the many sub-sects of Vaishanvism. GizzaDiscuss © 01:20, 28 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Merge to Vaishnavism article, since it is, at most, a part of Vaishnavism. ~ priyanath talk 21:03, 28 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment - the Gonda source clearly establishing Early Vishnuism as a separate notable subject mater. It further points out to the differences in the associated concepts how it evolved from being centered on Vishnu to early references to a different type of worship of Vishnu-Kṛṣṇa and yet again (p. 163) ( Gonda, J. (1993) (first ed. 1969). Aspects of Early Visnuism. Motilal Banarsidass Publ., ) Whereas there are misconceptions on the subject and a common ignorance of the matter he clearly points out as to amalgamation of the other traditions with Vishnuism, such as Krishnaism and Ramaism of Bhagavatism. The notion and the source on the early Vishnuism such as Gondas clearly defined a need of a separate subject of an article. Wikidās ॐ 10:18, 29 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The same page talks of merging of the other traditions "IN" Vishnuism. This means, now Krishnaism and Ramaism is a subset of Vishnuism, and NOT Vishnuism, Krishnaism and Ramaism merging into Vaishnaism. --Redtigerxyz (talk) 14:05, 29 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment - Amalgamation is not the merging. ( Gonda does say merging in, amagalmation is often used to describe earlier cults of Gopala and Vaasudeva into Bhagavatism) Few traditions according to literary sources amalgamated within Bhagavatism, prior to merging in Early Vishnuism,
therefore Vishnuism as entity is a valid entity and is a sub -branch of what is common version of Vishuism and existed independently from others forming current Vaishnavism.Wikidās ॐ 14:10, 29 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Gonda uses "merge".--Redtigerxyz (talk) 14:12, 29 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Gonda does not use the word Vaisnavism as well. Even in this book, he is talking about early Visnuism. Lets look for a replacement from other reliable source. as for example Gavin Flood also is using merging as "In its early stages, Vaisnavism represents the merging of the religions of a number of different social groupings from both north and south India." He clearly states that Vishnu become 'fused' with other, originally independent deities. An Introduction to Hinduism Flood p 117. That means that there is Vishnuism as a historical fact that is different from what today is represented by Vaishnavism, that is a merge of many traditions. Wikidās ॐ 14:40, 29 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Many books just use Vishnuism and Shivaism , and do not use Vaishnavism and Shaivism [5].Why should Gonda use Vaisnavism, if Vishnuism is being used for consistency purposes?Redtigerxyz (talk) 15:01, 29 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- If we trust "Gonda does not use the word Vaisnavism", then how was the book used to support the statement "Vishnuism is one of the branches of Vaishnavism", the first statement in the Vishnuism article, Isn't that a contradiction? This proves clear OR or misinterptretation.Redtigerxyz (talk) 15:00, 29 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- It is clearly because he is talking about EARLY Vishnuism, not about Vaishnavism existing that does not fit or is not covered by the definition. Not only that even at historic times, Vishnuism was not a synonym of all other groups that merged into it at an early stage, and it is not the same as the groups that are called Vaishnavism(s) now. I guess the key to the answer is that Historic Visnuism is different to what is now commonly called Vaishnavism. Wikidās ॐ 15:26, 29 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment As this is a hair splitting exercise, I think that both sides of the argument must provide more reliable sources to back up their claims. Of course though, I always want more reliable sources to back up claims. Thanks. Ism schism (talk) 05:22, 30 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Move and keep. After looking over the above sources, it is absolutely clear from sources that Vishnuism is considered a separate tradition, that historically and later on became an umbrella or one merged tradition. However it should be moved to Historical Vishnuism as per Gonda, J. (1993) (first ed. 1969) Aspects of Early Visnuism. Article has to be expanded and sourced to reflect this.Wikidās ॐ 07:24, 30 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I differ to disagree with "it is absolutely clear from sources that Vishnuism is considered a separate tradition" when i am providing explicit references like Britannica, which clearly state Vishnuism as a synonym for Vaishnavism. I still think, we Merge and redirect Viishnuism to Vaishnavism.
Images of Indian Goddesses: Myths, Meanings and Models By Madhu Bazaz Wangu] explicitly tells us to refer to it to compare Vaishnavism and Shaivism. Why would the author do so if Vishnuism and Vaishnavism are different.
The Arts of Nepal By Pratapaditya Pal] calls the sect Vishnuism, but uses Vaishnava for the follower, a word which used for Vaishnavism.
Towards a Christian Pastoral Approach to Cambodian Culture By Gerard Ravasco p.56] mentions Vaishnavism and lists the alternate spellings, one being Vishnuism as a footnote. p.109. For consistency, authors seem to use 1 spelling "Vaishnavism" or "vishnuism". Redtigerxyz (talk) 13:54, 30 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Historical or early Vishnuism is different to what now is called Vaishnavism as in Sri Vaishnavsim, Gaudiya Vaishnavism. Etc Wikidās ॐ 15:00, 30 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment It's abundantly clear from many reliable sources provided above that Vishnuism is an alternate term for Vaishnavism, or possibly an earlier term for Vaishnavism, but not something completely different. This should be a simple redirect. ~ priyanath talk 20:59, 30 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment Are there any sources for an individual Vishnuism article other than Gonda? If there are other sources, please do provide them. As is, this is boardering on interpreting sources. I can understand Wikidas' arguements above, but they lack multiple reliable sources. Also, the weight of Redtigerxyz's reliable sources is heavy. Concerning Vishnuism, are there other sources? If not, this page should be merged with Vaishnavism. Thanks. Ism schism (talk) 22:24, 30 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Another Source Equating Vishnuism and Vaishnavism
Gnosis: A New Translation with Selected Letters (2006) by Frithjof Schuon
"Vishnuism, or Vaishnavism, is a theistic sect of the Hindu religion whose members
worship the God Vishnu as the Supreme Deity" p. 154 ~ priyanath talk 00:36, 31 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I think the case is complicated by the fact that often modern Vaishnavism term is translated as Vishnuism, however I will bring up references clearly indicating that Vishnuism (as worship of Vishnu) became part of what is now Vaishnavism, thus supporting my conclusion that it is to be moved to Historical Vishnuism. I will clean up the article in the meantime. Wikidās ॐ 11:03, 1 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.