The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Randykitty (talk) 17:34, 6 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Yannick Helbling[edit]

(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

Contested PROD. Concern was Article about a footballer who fails WP:GNG and who has not played in a fully pro league. PROD was contested by the article's creator based on an unsourced claim that the Swiss second division is fully pro. Sir Sputnik (talk) 18:39, 29 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Football-related deletion discussions. Sir Sputnik (talk) 18:40, 29 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. Sir Sputnik (talk) 18:40, 29 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Switzerland-related deletion discussions. Sir Sputnik (talk) 18:40, 29 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Question: The article says he's in the Swiss Challenge League and our article on that says that it's a professional league. So what is the problem here? ~Anachronist (talk) 00:30, 30 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

While there is undoubtedly some degree of professionalism in the Swiss Challenge League, WP:NFOOTY requires footballer to have played in a fully professional league. The WikiProject Football maintains a list of leagues confirmed to be fully pro at WP:FPL. You'll note the Swiss Challenge League isn't on it. Sir Sputnik (talk) 01:10, 30 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Sir Sputnik: Waitaminute... we're using a user-generated wikiproject page as a definitive source to determine inclusion criteria? What is the distinction between "professional" and "fully professional"? Honestly, it sounds to me like "almost pregnant", which is nonsensical. You either are, or you aren't. Apologies for asking here... this might be a discussion for Wikipedia talk:Notability (sports). ~Anachronist (talk) 13:43, 30 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Anachronist: No, we're using reliable sources to determine the inclusion criteria and gathering them in one place for ease of access. Having used this list ten years now, the absence of a league from the list isn't due to lack of interest, but rather because it either ins't fully pro or there aren't good sources on the matter. As for what a fully professional league is, professionalism of leagues is not a binary state, but a sliding scale. The adverb fully is used to distinguish from semi-professional leagues, where some but not all players are unpaid amateurs or part timers who have to hold down other jobs outside of football to earn a living. Leagues like this are regularly described as professional, as is the case with our article on the Swiss Challenge League, but are not covered by WP:NFOOTY. Sir Sputnik (talk) 14:56, 30 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I appreciate the explanation. I often run across football-related disagreements about inclusion and I usually move on to something else because (a) I don't follow the sport, and (b) I never fully understood the basis for inclusion. You have helped clear things up. ~Anachronist (talk) 15:58, 30 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Delete I myself was surprised to see the Swiss Challenge League was not considered fully professional. As per this source, Swiss football does not distinguish between professional and semi-professional clubs, and Challenge League players frequently have to take on additional work, showing it's not fully professional: [1] Therefore, he fails WP:NFOOTY and WP:GNG. SportingFlyer talk 03:07, 30 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Delete sources too weak to pass GNG and doesn't meet NFOOTY. Dom from Paris (talk) 06:12, 30 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - fails WP:GNG and WP:NFOOTBALL. Giant Snowman 11:34, 30 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - Fails NFOOTY as has not played or managed senior international football nor played or managed in a fully professional league. No indication that subject has garnered significant reliable coverage for any other achievements to satisfy GNG. Fenix down (talk) 16:32, 30 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related deletions. Hhhhhkohhhhh (talk) 06:38, 1 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.