Deletion review archives: 2017 February

1 February 2017

  • Israel at the FIBA Basketball World CupRestore Israel at the FIFA World Cup, no consensus on the others. These mass discussions are hard to adjudicate properly, so I don't have a very high confidence this is the correct outcome. If anybody feels strongly that Israel at the FIFA World Cup, should be deleted, this outcome does not preclude re-nominating it in a new AfD devoted specifically to that one article. Likewise, if anybody feels strongly that one of the NC articles really deserves restoring, feel free to bring that one specific article back to DRV so it can be discussed in isolation. – -- RoySmith (talk) 13:50, 10 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the page above. Please do not modify it.
Israel at the FIBA Basketball World Cup (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)

Multiple people during the AfD stated that the individual years should be merged into the main pages and then delete the individual years. An argument that no one attempted to disprove as being valid. Due to the large number of articles that were nominated it was impossible for someone to properly review them all and see if they should be deleted.

Another example, people used WP:NOTSTATS as their rationale, but if you look at Israel at the 2017 World Baseball Classic or Israel at the 2013 World Baseball Classic, it had a ton more than just stats, yet it got lumped in with everything else.

Additionally with Israel at the FIFA World Cup and Israel at the UEFA European Championship being deleted they are now the only country without a page that has participated in the tournament. While I know WP:OSE is not a reason to keep, it shows notability of a counry's participation in the tournament.

In short, I am suggesting undeleting the following pages, as they were unfairly grouped in with the other pages. If they are undeleted, they can be expanded with information that was removed from the individual years:

  • Israel at the FIBA Basketball World Cup
  • Israel at the UEFA European Championship
  • Israel at the UEFA Women's Championship
  • Israel at the EuroBasket
  • Israel at the EuroBasket Women
  • Israel at the FIFA World Cup
  • Israel at the FIFA Women's World Cup
  • Israel at the European Championship of American football
  • Israel at the European Lacrosse Championships
  • Israel at the Women's European Lacrosse Championships
  • Israel at the World Lacrosse Championships
  • Israel at the Women's Lacrosse World Cup
  • Israel at the IIHF World Championship

Additionally I am suggesting undeleting the following, as their rationale given by those suggesting to delete it could not have applied to these, and were grouped in with too many other articles:

Thanks - GalatzTalk 14:51, 1 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  • Restore Israel at the FIFA World Cup, Endorse others. Based on the information that was available to the participants in the AfD, I feel the closing admin made the right decision. However, as Nfitz pointed out on another AfD, there is Template:Countries at the FIFA World Cup, and if those articles were believed to be non-notable, they all should have been nominated together. Original nominator is welcome to do that if he wishes. Although there is also Template:Countries at the UEFA European Championship, the same rationale does not apply as Israel never qualified for that tournament, unlike the others with articles. I personally voted to delete the FIFA World Cup article, but would have changed my vote if I were aware of the template at the time. Smartyllama (talk) 15:31, 1 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Object to restoring the ones Israel has not qualified for ever such as the FIFA Women's World Cup. That would be entirely misleading. I would definitely object to creating the 2013/2017 WBC's which were deleted with no objection (as these are the individual years vs the ones that are encompassing all the years) Others such as the European Championship of American football and the lacroses ones should not be created as its rather minor. Instead the information can be stored at their respective national team pages. I am not sure about the other events to comment if the country has qualified for them. Sportsfan 1234 (talk) 15:41, 1 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment Among the relatively major events here, Israel has qualified for the Men's and Women's EuroBasket, the FIBA Basketball World Cup, and the FIFA World Cup as well as the 2017 World Baseball Classic (but not the 2013 one). It has also participated in lower divisions of the IIHF World Championship, but never the top division. Contrary to Galatz's assertion on the original AfD, Division I, which Israel has participated in, is not the top division. Consensus is that only participating in the top division confers notability on players, though it says nothing about this type of article. Israel has not qualified for the Women's FIFA World Cup or either UEFA Championship, and the others I would consider very minor. Smartyllama (talk) 15:46, 1 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment - When European Baseball was nominated by itself, not grouped in with everything else, they all were determined to be notable. See Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Israel at the 2016 European Baseball Championship (2nd nomination) for the discussion. I believe this demonstrates clearly that the nature of the way everything was nominated was just unrealistic and impossible to properly discuss. - GalatzTalk 15:50, 1 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Can we get some or all of these articles moved to userspace temporarily if they haven't been already? You mention "If you take a look at...." but we can't take a look at them because the pages have been deleted. Smartyllama (talk) 16:19, 1 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Just an FYI I previously requested and received the following: User:Galatz/Israel at the 2017 World Baseball Classic, User:Galatz/Israel at the 2013 World Baseball Classic, User:Galatz/Israel at the 2010 European Baseball Championship, User:Galatz/Israel at the 2012 European Baseball Championship, User:Galatz/Israel at the 2016 European Baseball Championship, User:Galatz/Israel at the 2012 European Lacrosse Championships, User:Galatz/Israel at the 2016 European Lacrosse Championships. However if this request is not accepted I would request the pages I requested above be restored to my userspace so the information can be moved into the national team page. - GalatzTalk 19:56, 1 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Restore at least the non-year articles. There didn't seem to be consensus in the AFD discussion to delete them. Though I'm not sure deletion of any articles were necessary, the remaining ones could be redirects. I'm quite troubled by such a mass deletion of unrelated articles - it's too many to deal with it once. I don't have any objections with simply overturning the entire AFD and relisting in smaller chunks. Nfitz (talk) 00:51, 2 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Overturn--regardless of LOCALCONSENSUS, this is simply too many things to be deleting in one AfD. Given that these are all Israeli topics, I would expect a higher bar for deletion, as I would for any other politically contentious topics. The debate and participation levels simply aren't there to support outright deletion, especially in light of the very well argued WP:ATD merge arguments. Jclemens (talk) 02:59, 2 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Why? They are the same in scope (Israel at a specific sporting event... which there seems to be a consensus that these sort of articles should be kept to multi sporting events).

In Summary

  • Israel at the FIBA Basketball World Cup - Restore
  • Israel at the UEFA European Championship - Do not restore the country has never qualified (would be extremely misleading to do so)
  • Israel at the UEFA Women's Championship - Do not restore the country has never qualified (would be extremely misleading to do so)
  • Israel at the EuroBasket
  • Israel at the EuroBasket Women
  • Israel at the FIFA World Cup - Restore
  • Israel at the FIFA Women's World Cup - Do not restore the country has never qualified (would be extremely misleading to do so)
  • Israel at the European Championship of American football - Minor event, info can be merged into the respective national team article.
  • Israel at the European Lacrosse Championships - Minor event, info can be merged into the respective national team article.
  • Israel at the Women's European Lacrosse Championships - Minor event, info can be merged into the respective national team article.
  • Israel at the World Lacrosse Championships - Minor event, info can be merged into the respective national team article.
  • Israel at the Women's Lacrosse World Cup - Minor event, info can be merged into the respective national team article.
  • Israel at the IIHF World Championship - Do not restore, the country has never competed in the top division.
  • Israel at the 2017 World Baseball Classic - Do not restore, merge with Israel at the World Baseball Classic
  • Israel at the 2013 World Baseball Classic - Do not restore , merge with Israel at the World Baseball Classic

Its alarming the person who wants to have this reviewed has not addressed the fact that some of these articles are misleading... Sportsfan 1234 (talk) 03:24, 2 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

There is nothing to discuss about it. The name should be recognizable per WP:CRITERIA. If you disagree that your argument should be to move Israel at the UEFA European Championship to Israel at the UEFA European Championship qualifier by that just seems silly. You aren't arguing notability, you are arguing the lack of the word qualifier. - GalatzTalk 13:54, 2 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Israel's performance can't be notable at a tournament they've never even qualified for, at least in my opinion. I suspect Sportsfan 1234 is making the same point. We do not have Bahamas at the 2014 Winter Olympics even though consensus is those kinds of articles are notable for the simple reason that, although at least one Bahamanian athlete participated in qualifying, none actually qualified and therefore the nation did not participate at the Games. Consensus is that X at the Winter Olympics in general is not notable in and of itself and should redirect to X at the Olympics, but Bahamas at the Winter Olympics doesn't even do that because they've never participated in the Winter Olympics, only qualifying events. Contrast with other nations that have competed at the Winter Olympics but aren't known for their winter sports prowess, like Dominica at the Winter Olympics, Ethiopia at the Winter Olympics, American Samoa at the Winter Olympics, etc. The reason for the difference is clear, and the same principle applies here. Smartyllama (talk) 20:21, 2 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I can understand your argument to an extent, however not completely. The qualifiers get plenty of attention on WP for certain sports, it really depends on what it is. For example, looking at Template:UEFA Euro 2016 and you will see there are 8 pages dedicated solely to the qualifiers. Also no country, not even the US has a winter olympics page, those are all redirects to the olympics page for that country. Lets say however that Bahamas competed in qualifiers for the Olympics every year but never had anyone ever make it, there could be arguments to the merit of including it. I really think a blanket qualified or not is not a good judgement. Let's say Brazil failed to qualify for the World Cup during this qualifier. It would get HUGE attention and would certainly be notable. You cannot use that as the sole criteria. - GalatzTalk 21:13, 2 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
As I said, the ones who have participated in the Winter Olympics are all redirects, but the Bahamas one isn't even that, because they've never participated. Also, if Brazil failed to qualify for the World Cup, then it would be their failure to qualify for the World Cup, as opposed to their participation in qualifiers in and of itself, that was notable. Israel isn't anywhere near the soccer powerhouse Brazil is. See, for instance Brazil v Germany (2014 FIFA World Cup) which is notable not as a World Cup Semifinal (which isn't inherently notable in and of itself) but because of how shocking it was for Brazil, rivaled perhaps only by the Maracanazo in terms of football disasters for the Brazilian national team. Brazil failing to even qualify for the World Cup at all would trump both of those. But it would be notable because they failed to qualify, not in spite of it. Brazil failing to qualify for the World Cup at all would likely be regarded as the greatest tragedy in the history of the country, sporting or otherwise. The situations are not remotely comparable. In short, Brazil failing to qualify, while technically failing WP:NSPORT, would easily pass WP:GNG and thus still be notable. The same is not true of Israel and UEFA. Smartyllama (talk) 21:42, 2 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse- the AfD reached a clear consensus to delete these articles. What evidence is there that the closing admin incorrectly judged policy or the arguments of participants? None. Reyk YO! 11:45, 2 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Reyk There were 5 different times it was mentioned that the years should be merged into the main article for each sport, and no one brought an argument to it stating why thats an issue. Its not just about the arguments made but the quality of those made. I think anyone saying to delete per WP:NOTSTATS clearly did not fully review the list of articles (impossible to do due to the volume). Like I said about, its impossible to say that is the case when all the articles are so different, Israel at the 2017 World Baseball Classic is a lot more than just stats, how could that be lumped in with the others? - GalatzTalk 13:59, 2 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Reyk: At least in the instance of the FIFA World Cup one, the participants and admin closing were not aware of the existence of the Template I mentioned above containing numerous other similar articles, in part due to a failure of anyone to nominate the relevant WikiProject. I, for one, would have changed my vote if I were aware of that, and I suspect others would as well. As I said above, this arguably applies to the UEFA Men's one as well, but I don't think it does since Israel never qualified for that tournament and the other articles in the template are for countries that have. If nominator feels all of them are non notable, he should have nominated all of them, not one of them snuck in with a bunch of others. This would fall under Criteria #3, that significant new information has come to light. Smartyllama (talk) 03:10, 5 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Overturn; When it is plausibly challenged that articles should not ha e been listed together, the default should be to restart listing them separately. Most multiple listings that have come here--this set included--have has one or more items that shouldhave gotten separate consideration. DGG ( talk ) 06:28, 3 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep deleted with leave to individually relist a small number such as the FIFA World Cup one which may possibly be notable. As to the rest, Wikipedia is not a sports almanac. Stifle (talk) 09:22, 3 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    • @Stifle: So you mean exactly what Galatz did? Only a small fraction of those deleted are up for DRV here. The result doesn't have to be all or nothing here - I think it was done the right way. Smartyllama (talk) 13:29, 3 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment It seems to me that these types of deletion nomination (whether individually or in bulk) are wholly absurd. What a waste of time. They could have been boldly converted to redirects or have been merged and then dealt with by talk page discussion. My inclination would be to overturn the whole lot except that might create even more disruption. Thincat (talk) 10:37, 3 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Restore Israel at the FIFA World Cup, it is absurd that the article was deleted. Otherwise, keep deleted Israel at the FIFA Women's World Cup, Israel at the UEFA European Championship, and Israel at the UEFA Women's Championship, as these are misleading articles that Israel never qualified for, which can be covered on the main national team page. S.A. Julio (talk) 17:16, 4 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it.