Please forgive me, this is a long and frustrating read because this article goes deeper than a single AfD decision.
The articles for various cricketers were sent to PROD - those belonging to A. Devapriya, K. de Silva, N. Fernando and N. Kumara, back in March 2010, in spite of each of the cricketers meeting long-established notability guidelines. I re-added these four months ago
The article belonging to S. Perera (Kurunegala Youth Cricket Club cricketer) was sent to AfD - nearly five years later, albeit by a different user. I reinstated this article along with the other four, following discussion here. Naturally, this cricketer passes these long-held notability guidelines, similar to every other team sporting guideline, that a single appearance in a major competition is enough to establish notability. (Statistics here). There are thousands of articles like this on Wikipedia, those of cricket players with a single major cricketing appearance, and every single one has been allowed to expand and thrive as an individual article - similar to single-appearance biographies in almost every team sport. Hence the reason for his addition.
I concede that the closing admin here had a difficult decision to make considering the views put forward on the AfD page - however I do not consider the deletion rationales to be watertight. All the original deletion rationale claims is "Non-notable BLP". Which is scant - and unqualified - justification for sending an article which clearly meets long-accepted guidelines - to which we have held ever since the establishment of Wikiproject Cricket, as has every other competitive team sport - to AfD, especially since the rationale quotes no policy. Nor would it presumably be given adequate weight as a deletion rationale by a casting !voter by a closing admin, as the vote would quote no single guideline. The discussion included the point that "People are presumed notable if they have received significant coverage in multiple published secondary sources that are reliable, intellectually independent of each other, and independent of the subject." I thereby considered, perhaps the reason the article was being sent for deletion was purely the pluralization of the word "source"! Perhaps if we had included a link to a second source, this would have satisfied the "single source" deletion rationale.
Along followed a debate on the AfD page in which the long-established guideline of WP:CRIN - which has never done us harm up until now - was quoted - that the article "technically met cricket biography notability guidelines", but that these were "only guidelines" (two quotes from the same user).
Anyhow, following much discussion, which included delete votes put forward by an IP address, as well as an account which we have been unable to trace, the article was deleted.
While fearing this article would be speedily deleted under CSD G4, I reinstated this (link to the Undelete logs) in May 2017, based on a discussion which took place here, alongside the four previously PROD-ded articles. While not deleted there and then, the article was speedily deleted four months later (is that a contradiction in terms?) under exactly the CSD criterion I feared.
My main point is that most of the deletion !votes - as well as the rationale of the closing admin - in the 2015 deletion debate - based primarily on the fact that "we do not have basic details like date of birth", quoted three times by the IP address, are weak or invalid.
In conclusion, I feel this article should be reinstated, based on weak, and invalid, deletion rationales, the fact that the article categorically meets inclusion criteria, and the fact that I believe there was no clear consensus in the AfD discussion. This article deletion has proven a net negative to our project, where we now fear that every article which meets the same criteria may suffer the same fate. Bobo. 10:10, 17 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse- the consensus at the AfD was clearly to delete, and there was nothing wrong with the later speedy deletion. I think both decisions reflected the state of the article and the opinions of the AfD participants. As the closing admin pointed out, the actual problem is one WikiProject elevating its own, overly inclusive, standards over WP:GNG, which is accepted Wikipedia-wide.
The article was little more than a few database entries inflated grotesquely. It was not even possible to determine the player's first name. Turning raw stats into prose in this manner leads to possible BLP issues, because it's easy to be tempted to introduce unsubstantiated material. Examples, which have actually happened, include asserting a player is retired, or still living, when there's no way to tell that from the source material. Or when it's not clear whether two stats pages are referring to one player competing for two clubs, or two similarly named people playing for one team each. This of course leads to BLP issues.
The best way, IMO, to present raw stats is in the form of a list. I would support the creation of List of Kurunegala Youth Cricket Club cricketers where these bare numbers could be listed in full, allowing the comparison of similar entries, and avoiding the trap of saying more in prose than the sources do. Genuinely notable players would be blue linked, of course.
Finally, I am aware that endorsing the AfD is likely to make me the target of further harassment and abuse, but that is no reason to avoid speaking my mind. My opinion on this matter is legitimate regardless of what my detractors may think. ReykYO! 11:12, 17 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Reyk, while I generally don't understand how this procedure works, I suggest that given our considerable interaction, this should recuse you from the discussion. Bobo. 11:17, 17 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I disagree. ReykYO! 11:25, 17 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I thought the whole point of taking articles to DRV was that they were evaluated by an uninvolved party..? Bobo. 11:28, 17 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
(ec) You'll find I didn't nominate the original AfD, and didn't vote on it, so I'm as uninvolved as can be. Your subsequent actions are an unrelated, behavioural, matter. Since your repetitious complaints about this AfD served as a distraction from your behavioural issues at the ANI, I could just as easily accuse you of being involved and therefore lacking standing to bring this DRV. But I'm not a wikilawyer. My !vote here stands. This will be my last reply to you on the topic. ReykYO! 11:36, 17 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse as deleting admin, Bobo's comments referring to long established guidelines are illuminating. The idea that all first class cricketers are inherently notable is long entrenched but does not reflect the tightening up of standards around bios and bops in particular that has happened in recent years. So we have an sng in conflict with wider community expectations shown in blp/gng/n. Bobo's would argue that CRIN has priority but is is a long established principle that wider community requirements have precedence. Therefore this was an inadequately sourced bio and in closing I gave weight to arguments reflecting wider community norms rather than narrow subject based views out of kilter with community wide expectations. Reyk is correct that a list is the appropriate solution. SpartazHumbug! 11:42, 17 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
How much more "adequately sourced" would you want the article to be? The fact that we included two sources which are universally agreed amongst the cricket Wikiproject to be satisfactory, disproves this. In what way was this article "inadequately sourced"? Bobo. 11:48, 17 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I think the closer was a bit harsh on the Keep commenters in that AfD. The subject here is an athlete from a developing country where English is not the main language and he was active about 20 years ago. This suggests that Googling by Western English speakers may not provide a particularly comprehensive view of the available sources. The closing statement refers to "detailed examination of the article" but this is probably all that was done. SNGs are particularly valuable in those situations as they indicate where sources are likely to exist (the article did have enough sourcing to verify that the subject met the SNG). Given that I think it was reasonable to argue that the article should be kept on the grounds that the subject met the relevant SNG, just as it is reasonable to argue the opposite. Several of the Delete arguments are weak or dubious. Hut 8.5 12:11, 17 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
And invalid - one from an IP address, one from an untraceable account, and one as per the untraceable account. Bobo. 12:17, 17 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
IP's can vote at AfD, as can "untraceable accounts". Unless they are blocked, they are valid. Mr rnddude (talk) 03:58, 18 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
True, but in this situation we could plausibly discount the comment from the IP. The "untraceable account", Rainbow unicorn, has since been indefinitely blocked for abusive sockpuppetry (the account has been renamed, which is why it doesn't immediately appear). That does bring into question whether the IP is a sockpuppet. Hut 8.5 06:37, 18 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - Spartaz, what did you mean when you responded to my comment about "every first-class cricketer having an article except this guy" when you responded "not unless they have sourcing"? Given the sources that you were aware were present on the article, please would you explain what is wrong with these sources? If there is a fundamental problem with these sources, then there is a fundamental problem with sourcing on 90 percent of cricket articles.
You left a suspiciously lengthy justification on the deletion conversation which mentioned nothing to do with the sourcing, and now you are claiming that the "inadequate sourcing" is the problem. As far as I can tell, in this case, the problem is that you feel the article was not sourced, which anyone who is able to access the article can clearly see it was. Bobo. 13:21, 17 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse As a fair reading of the consensus. While there is some debate over whether individual SNGs override the broad GNG guidelines (WP:PROF being one I participated in recently) it is made pretty clear at WP:NSPORTS that the sport specific notability guidelines are a guide to help people decide if something might be notable, not an automatic inclusion. This was pointed out at the discussion. It was also pretty clear from that discussion that this article only just met the SNG and was not even close to the GNG. Those !votes that simply said that it meets WP:NCRIC without indicating how the article also complies with the GNGs were rightly given less weight. AIRcorn(talk) 06:54, 18 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse mostly per Aircorn. The speedy deletion was appropriate as the two states of the article were, for all intents and purposes, the same. The AfD discussion was also closed appropriately, with respect to the arguments made and the import of the quoted guidelines. Harriastalk 11:07, 18 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Weak endorseOverturn to no consensus mainly per Hut 8.5 pointing out the socking. It wasn't known at the time, but it cast doubt on at least two of the keep !votes. FWIW, yes, SNGs are equal to the GNG based on the actual guideline, which is WP:N. NSPORTS has chosen to subjugate itself to the GNG, but that is not what the community wide policy is. You have a tension between WP:N and WP:NSPORTS on this one, with the former considering the latter equivalent to the GNG, but the latter saying the GNG take prominence. That makes sports AfDs difficult to deal with. If it weren't for the socking, I'd have called this no consensus.TonyBallioni (talk) 21:31, 18 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I think you might have this the wrong way round - the sockmaster and the IP !voted Delete, not Keep. Hut 8.5 21:40, 18 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Oh goodness, I did misread that didn't I. Thanks for pointing it out: I've amended my !vote accordingly. TonyBallioni (talk) 21:47, 18 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Overturn to NC as far as I can tell the SNG and GNG run on parallel tracks here. What I mean is that NSPORTS doesn't specifically defer to the GNG (" Failing to meet the criteria in this guideline means that notability will need to be established in other ways (e.g. the general notability guideline, or other, topic-specific, notability guidelines)." So an argument that the topic meets the SNG is just as valid as one that says it meets the GNG (as long as it's true). I do think in this case there could be an argument that this person shouldn't have an article. He did participate, but only just barely. Seems like a bit too low of a bar IMO. But the right place to debate this is at the SNG or the AfD. And if you weigh the SNG and GNG arguments equally, there is no consensus to delete. And that's without considering the socking issues. Hobit (talk) 23:24, 18 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
"Just barely" is not the point - and in any case, unverifiable. We are looking at absolutes - yes and no - and not cloudy "maybe" criteria. "Just barely" is yes. Bobo. 00:03, 19 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
It might be. The SNG gives room for not including everyone who meets it. Quite specifically. And this case (very minor player on a fairly minor team) seems like a good case for using that discretion. I'd likely !vote to delete on that basis (meets the letter of the SNG, but not the spirit basically). But that's not the direction the discussion went. It was "meets the SNG" vs. "The GNG trumps the SNG". On a good day, that's NC given the numbers. Given that the GNG doesn't trump _this_ SNG (per the long-established SNG itself), the keep side had the better argument. I think there _is_ a solid deletion argument to be had. But it didn't get consensus. Hobit (talk) 02:50, 19 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse - After taking a close look at the AfD, the relevant guidelines and discounting Rainbow Unicorn's !vote (I am not inclined to discount the IP as there is no evidence that it is a sockpuppet of any other user - though their argument holds no weight) I have to endorse the close. The basic keep argument was simply that the article met NCRIC. This is simply not enough. NSPORTS (and therefore NCRIC) is subservient to GNG as quoted from WP:NSPORTS itself; In addition, standalone articles are required to meet the General Notability Guideline. The guideline on this page provides bright-line guidance to enable editors to determine quickly if a subject is likely to meet the General Notability Guideline. Thus, it must be argued, that the articles failure to meet GNG holds significantly more weight than its success in meeting NCRIC. Which, coincidentally, is exactly what the countering delete argument was saying; that while it might just barely meet NCRIC it comprehensively failed to meet WP:GNG or WP:N. Side-note; Hobit and TonyBallioni, in this case the SNG requires the article to meet GNG. They are not on parallel tracks. Mr rnddude (talk) 04:41, 19 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Mr rnddude From WP:N: A topic is presumed to merit an article if: It meets either the general notability guideline below, or the criteria outlined in a subject-specific guideline listed in the box on the right; (emphasis mine). NSPORTS contradicts the text of WP:N, which explicitly lists it as equal to the GNG. To borrow an old maxim: when the law is unclear, there is no law. The people involved with it couldn't figure out how to sort out the ambiguity. When that's the case, we keep an article, not delete it. TonyBallioni (talk) 04:47, 19 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I'll revisit this and do necessary citations of the website Herrera enrico24 (talk) 08:59, 7 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I recovered this misplaced request from this attempt to add a DRV to an old log page. That said, endorse. T. Canens (talk) 04:16, 17 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
(Closing admin) In addition I note that some editors in the AfD were concerned about the way the page was structured, and that citations while they existed are too few and not independent enough to justify an article. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 08:27, 17 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Obviously a correctly closed AfD. I suggest that if you want the page to be moved to a draft state then you should provide some examples of citations that you want to add to the article to address the concerns about sourcing. Additionally there was another concern that the article content was largely a massive list of people in minor positions in student organisations, which isn't encyclopedic (WP:NOT#DIR). Hut 8.5 10:38, 17 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse no other way to read this AfD. TonyBallioni (talk) 21:22, 18 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse If you want to run the proposed sources by someone once you have them, feel free to use me. I'm a bit busy, but should be able to respond. Hobit (talk) 23:26, 18 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]