Suicide of Katelyn Nicole Davis – There is no consensus about whether the G4 speedy deletion was correct. Because speedy deletions are intended to be used in uncontroversial cases, such outcomes usually are referred to AfD, which I am doing now. Sandstein 07:41, 24 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the page above. Please do not modify it.
Suicide of Katelyn Nicole Davis (talk`\|`edit`\|`history`\|`logs`\|`links`\|`watch) (restore) This page was speedy deleted claiming WP:G4, because a different page "Suicide of Katelyn Davis" about the event was deleted at an earlier point. However, the new page "Suicide of Katelyn Nicole Davis" is different in both references and content from the old page, so it should be evaluated independently on its own merits. For example, the old article was criticized for starting out with a casual DailyMail reference (and had a bunch of YouTube references), while the new article starts with the WP:RS The Independent (and has no YouTube references). The new article also has a section about effects and aftermath that wasn't present in the old, which further establishes notability and further demonstrates this is an entirely new article and should be treated as such. The old article was basically given WP:TNT and we started over. Remember, when applying WP:G4, "It excludes pages that are not substantially identical to the deleted version, pages to which the reason for the deletion no longer applies". The new article came into being after a formal "Articles for Creation" process over three months ending in admin approval, which can be seen in the new article's logs. Personal note: I didn't create the new "Suicide of Katelyn Nicole Davis" article (and I don't know who did) although I did participate in improving the draft it once I noticed it was present in the AfC stream. Jauerback who speedy deleted this article has been contacted and suggested I make a DRV entry here. Thanks, Cruiser1 (talk) 20:50, 8 January 2019 (UTC)[reply] Seven of the nine sources cited were present in the deleted article; one of the others is dead, and the other was mentioned at the AFD. Prose content's essentially identical. I don't see how this addresses any of the concerns at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Suicide of Katelyn Davis. Endorse. —Cryptic 21:08, 8 January 2019 (UTC)[reply] Before debating specific references in the article, we should remember that "deletion review is not an opportunity to (re-)express your opinion on the content in question. It is an opportunity to correct errors in process". That said, yes, some content and references are similar between the old and new articles. Not every reference and sentence in the old article was bad. The important point is the bad references have been removed, and reliable references and content establishing notability have been added. Note the link https://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/dad-irish-teen-who-took-10356470 isn't dead, but works for me. Also the link https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/katelyn-nicole-davis-12-year-old-kill-herself-suicide-livestream-video-live-viral-cedartown-georgia-a7523666.html was mentioned in earlier discussions as a reliable reference from a source that's actually good to use and that many other Wikipedia articles make use of (as opposed to DailyMail that the old article used). More importantly, this separate article's draft went through and was approved in the formal Articles for Creation process, so if people don't like the new content, then they should discuss it on the new article's talk page, or go through an official 7 day deletion proposal instead of just speedy deleting it. Thanks, Cruiser1 (talk) 21:55, 8 January 2019 (UTC)[reply] Comment After looking at the background to this topic (but not looking at either of the deleted articles), I could imagine supporting a WP:IAR deletion without even undeleting temporarily to see whether the WP:G4 criteria were met (I suspect they were not). However, I would not endorse a deletion under specious reasons for speedy deletion. Are the articles such that it improves WP to ignore the strictures of G4 and just keep deleted anyway? Thincat (talk) 23:06, 8 January 2019 (UTC)[reply] Comment A G4 should be relatively easy to figure out - I don't have access to the historical versions of these pages, though, so I can't comment on whether G4 is met or not. However, the SNOW deletion of the article in September raised some very serious issues and I would expect a new version of the page to fix those issues and clearly demonstrate notability. Based only on Cryptic's reference analysis, I don't see how either of those needs are met. I would keep deleted regardless. SportingFlyer talk 04:55, 9 January 2019 (UTC)[reply] Comment: Wikipedia is not censored (see WP:NOTCENSORED) so this page shouldn't be deleted or left deleted just because an editor finds it "shocking" or "too sensitive". There are many other youth suicide pages very similar to this one on Category:Bullying_and_suicide. There are also other filmed suicide pages such as Suicide of Kevin Whitrick which have been deemed notable enough to easily survive [deletion proposal]. This page should exist because it's a highly notable event in both categories, a unique case of a youth suicide that was filmed, which literally millions of people saw on social media. (That makes this the most watched suicide in world history.) Fortunately, because this case pushed Facebook and others toward increased scanning and reporting, an event like this shouldn't ever happen again! Anyway, if this iconic page is deleted, then we should also delete all those other less notable pages. But as stated before, deletion review shouldn't be the place we debate wider Wikipedia policy or even the content of this page. All we're supposed to do here is determine whether the speedy deletion was appropriately applied due to the spurious claim of the new article being identical to the old. Thanks, Cruiser1 (talk) 05:52, 9 January 2019 (UTC)[reply] To be fair, no one here has argued the article is too shocking or too sensitive, nor is this another bite at the AfD apple. A quick review of the available material clearly shows this article had multiple issues that would need to be addressed in a new version, were that new version to survive an AfD. The fact this was recreated under a new title less than three months after a snow delete AfD would concern me regardless of the topic. SportingFlyer talk 07:43, 9 January 2019 (UTC)[reply] I disagree that "no one here has argued the article is too shocking or too sensitive". I was replying to Thincat above who said, "After looking at the background to this topic... I could imagine supporting a WP:IAR deletion without even undeleting temporarily to see whether the WP:G4 criteria were met (I suspect they were not)." That's a strong statement, and we don't want this discussion to get derailed. Anyway, yes, people raised three issues with the old article, which contributed to it failing AfD: (1) Old article had a DailyMail reference and several YouTube primary source references, none of which exist in the new article. (2) Old article mentioned allegations of abuse against specific living persons, which has been removed from the new article. (3) Old article didn't cover long term effects of the event beyond the news reporting, which has been addressed with a new section in the new article. But again, the old article is gone and isn't on trial here, and the new article passed AfC and was approved for article space after several iterations. Since the new article addresses all the old issues, it should survive AfD should it ever get proposed again. Thanks, Cruiser1 (talk) 03:07, 10 January 2019 (UTC)[reply] I hadn't (and still haven't) read either article to see if I find them shocking. Rather, the topic seems to me unsuitable for my concept of an encyclopedia. Why, then, do I find myself !voting "keep" for so many articles I think are on useless topics? It is because I don't like to hurt the feelings of editors who have put in work on matters that seem important to them. But in this case it is not the feelings of the editors I am most concerned about. It is the feelings of those whose lives have been wrecked. I can't start to know what I'd feel if this were my daughter but I wouldn't want the tragedy incorporating into Wikipedia. Thincat (talk) 12:05, 17 January 2019 (UTC)[reply] Endorse the article did "go through an official 7 day deletion proposal instead of just speedy deleting it", and it was deleted. We don't reopen these issues unless something has changed, and I don't see anything here. The main concern in the AfD was WP:BIO1E, namely that the subject is only notable for a single event which had little lasting impact and is only known because of a brief flurry of media coverage. There isn't anything here which comes vaguely close to addressing that. Of the "new" sources [1] was linked to in the AfD, so the participants were clearly aware of it and it didn't change the outcome, and [2] barely mentions the subject at all. Apart from that last reference everything cited is part of the brief flurry of media coverage after her death and doesn't demonstrate lasting impact. The claim that the case prompted Facebook to change its procedures isn't supported by the sources. The article also contained the same BLP issues as the AfDed version and all of the prose of the AfDed version was present. Hut 8.5 07:54, 9 January 2019 (UTC)[reply] Actually, the old version of this article never did "go through an official 7 day deletion proposal instead of just speedy deleting it". The old article was deleted a mere 19 hours after AfD proposal, which is hardly time for anybody to even notice the discussion, much less participate. Remember, even WP:SNOW warns that "closers should beware of interpreting 'early pile on' as necessarily showing how a discussion will end up". Anyway, alas now the very different new article is also being stealth deleted behind the scenes, without ever having given a broad spectrum of editors a chance to notice or comment upon how much this topic deserves an article. That just seems wrong, and seems to be an end-run around proper Wikipedia process. I agree issues shouldn't be reopened unless things have changed, which is why everything raised about the old article has been addressed in the new (see above for details). The new article focuses on the event, not the person, which is why like similar articles it's titled "Suicide of X" instead of just "X", and uses {infobox event} instead of {infobox person}, which means WP:BIO1E doesn't apply. Links such as https://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/dad-irish-teen-who-took-10356470 demonstrate how the event isn't a one time piece of news, but is still being referenced many months later and has had lasting impact. The only problem raised with the prose of the old version was allegations of abuse against specific living persons, which has been removed from the new article, so just saying some of the text of the new article is similar to the old is a non-issue without being more specific. Thanks, Cruiser1 (talk) 03:07, 10 January 2019 (UTC)[reply] The AfD was closed early because of the very strong support for deletion and the BLP concerns (concerns which haven't been eliminated in your version, FWIW). Retitling the article does not address the concerns in the AfD, and some AfD participants said exactly that. Changing the infobox makes even less difference. Literally all the coverage you have managed to find of this person after the event is the sentence There was widespread horror when American girl Katelyn Nicole Davis, 12, ended her life in January and the tragedy was streamed live on Facebook written in an Irish tabloid five months later. If that's all the subsequent coverage available then the event has not had lasting impact. Your version still includes various accusations of sexual and other abuse by living people. The article also said that police opened an investigation into those claims. Two years later that investigation has likely concluded, so what was the outcome? We don't know, because the event is too low profile. Hut 8.5 19:35, 10 January 2019 (UTC)[reply] Forget about the old article! Suppose the old article never existed, and the new article is the first thing about the event to appear on Wikipedia. Now suppose you notice the new article after it got approved in the Articles for Creation process, and as you suggest above you personally believe that the event's long term impacts are weak. What would you do? Most would add a {notability\|date=today} tag or such on it to allow the article to be improved and sources you like better to be found. Remember, WP:ARTN says, "if the source material exists, even very poor writing and referencing within a Wikipedia article will not decrease the subject's notability." If nobody finds anything after a while, only then propose a seven day AfD. An extreme deletionist would do a seven day AfD right away, which is technically allowed if a bit draconian. However to just nuke the article without even giving it a chance seems like censorship. Note that the old article never had any tags on it suggesting there was any problems with its quality (or if it did, they were added within the last few hours of its life). The old article was online for 19 months continuously without tags or even a hint of a problem, until suddenly without warning, within 24 hours it was "proposed" for AfD and deleted. Can you see why some are feeling cheated here? Note that even Jauerback who speedy deleted the new article admits "on my talk page" that he was unaware the new article had gone through and been approved in the public AfC process. Remember, the DRV guidelines say that "deletion review is not an opportunity to (re-)express your opinion on the content in question. It is an opportunity to correct errors in process". Even if you personally still find the new article insufficient in certain respects, I doubt anyone can deny a WP:GOODFAITH attempt has been made so far to address the old issues. Visit the page Suicide of Kevin Whitrick. What does that article have that the new Suicide of Katelyn Nicole Davis article doesn't have? Katelyn Davis was much more reported on local, national, and international levels, and affected the literally millions of people who saw her death video before Facebook and such were able to get the upper hand. (Unlike other suicide articles, Katelyn's actual death is viewable online, and beyond that she recorded much of the last 30 days of her life, making this a one-of-a-kind valuable psychological perspective into the suicidal mindset.) This isn't an obscure topic. There are 35 separate support groups about Katelyn Nicole Davis on Facebook while there are 0 about Kevin Whitrick. In May of 2017, the page Suicide of Katelyn Davis received over 21,000 page views in the past 30 days. That's way more than all the other lower profile Category:Bullying_and_suicide pages (Suicide of Kevin Whitrick has just 650 in the past month). A general Google search on ""Katelyn Nicole Davis"" returns 140,000 hits, while searching ""Kevin Whitrick"" returns only 5200. I know that "Wikipedia isn't about things that are notable, but rather it's about things that have been noted" but this is a high profile topic that shouldn't be so quickly dismissed. Page https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Deletionism#Arguments_against_deletion says, "It can be frustrating for a reader to come to Wikipedia for information and inside find that the relevant article existed at one point but has been deleted. This discourages both Wikipedia readership and authorship." Thanks, Cruiser1 (talk) 04:29, 12 January 2019 (UTC)[reply] We can't forget about the old article because you're contesting a WP:G4 deletion. If it's a substantially similar article, it should remain deleted. You're also continuing to make arguments better suited for an AfD discussion. I would strongly suggest familiarising yourself with WP:BLUD and allowing this process to run its course. SportingFlyer talk 05:41, 12 January 2019 (UTC)[reply] Endorse deletion. The "much better title" looks like a deliberate end-run around deletion, the text is pretty much the same and the same people are involved in both articles. Guy (Help!) 23:23, 9 January 2019 (UTC)[reply] I would claim the alternate title is another point in support of keeping the article. Multiple people are wondering why Wikipedia doesn't say anything about the most widely seen suicide in history, and are starting drafts about it. There's nothing sneaky going on here. The new article was a draft for several months, effort was made to address all the issues raised about it before, it went through the formal AfC process where everybody had a chance to see and comment upon the new proposal, before it was approved for article space. A "deliberate end-run" would be just creating a new article directly that's identical to the old and hoping nobody notices. Thanks, Cruiser1 (talk) 03:07, 10 January 2019 (UTC)[reply] Relist I'm not sure whether or not the article should be kept, but the snow close was wrong. . A proper afd might have eliminated the need for this review. DGG ( talk ) 06:59, 13 January 2019 (UTC)[reply] overturn speedy, list as desired WP:BIO1E says "The general rule is to cover the event, not the person." An attempt to cover this as an event, rather than a bio isn't "an end-run around deletion", it is exactly what policy says we should do. As an event article, this easily meets WP:N and isn't in obvious violation of our guidelines, certainly nowhere near clearly enough for a speedy deletion. The SNOW closed discussion was about sources (which have gotten somewhat better, a paragraph here, a bit more than a paragraph here are probably the best new sources) and BLP1E (which doesn't clearly apply given the change to an event article among other potential arguments). My guess is that the sources remain weak enough we may well end up deleting this, but there is no need to bypass AfD. Hobit (talk) 00:31, 14 January 2019 (UTC)[reply] Also, in general, I think an article that makes it through our AfC process should probably be given the benefit of the doubt when it comes to a G4. This warrants a discussion IMO. Hobit (talk) 08:02, 15 January 2019 (UTC)[reply] To be fair, I don't think it would have made it through AfC if it had the same title as the original. I personally would never accept an article at AfC if it had been recently deleted at AfD unless something had clearly changed, like a SNG being met. AfC clearly shows you how many times an article with the same title has been deleted, and this should be taken into consideration by those at AfC. (To be clear, I wouldn't decline the article on G4 grounds unless I could easily find a cache somewhere, since I can't see the history for a deleted article. I'd comment and leave it for someone else.) SportingFlyer T·C 08:47, 15 January 2019 (UTC)[reply] Sure, but we are talking about a topic that does have new sources (I provided two that I think are newer than the original AfD and I understand there were others), a new title (making it more compliant with BLP1E), and some new text. It also cleared AfC. I'm not saying the article should be kept, I'm saying it's not a clear speedy. And a G4 of that quite truncated AfD isn't ideal either (per DGG). Hobit (talk) 19:54, 15 January 2019 (UTC)[reply] The first AfD cleared a deletion review, though. I see it as settled. SportingFlyer T·C 21:21, 15 January 2019 (UTC)[reply] A possible compromise: If some don't like that the AfC process thread didn't clearly show that this is an improved version of a previously deleted article, then why don't we just move this back to draft space? We can add appropriate comments indicating its history before submitting it again. We can also add the two new sources Hobit mentioned above, which are high quality since they're published books, and which have NOT yet been included in any version of this article. Thanks, Cruiser1 (talk) 02:34, 16 January 2019 (UTC)[reply] It did clear a review (I had missed that) but the discussion was sparse and the outcome was no consensus. I think further discussion is reasonable. Hobit (talk) 04:26, 16 January 2019 (UTC)[reply] Endorse. She was twelve years old, and she reached international attention by committing suicide on video. I believe that it's irresponsible for Wikipedia to cover this. The risk of encouraging copycat behaviour is admittedly small, but it's not zero, and in my view a potential harm that serious outweighs the relatively minor benefit of covering the event.—S Marshall T/C 23:39, 14 January 2019 (UTC)[reply] There is some risk of that, I agree. But there is also the hope that it will discourage copycat behavior by understanding just how much it hurt loved ones. Also, it can help get people to think about the impact of bullying (and is used as such in one of the sources I listed). I believe it would be a net positive--but I certainly can't prove that. Hobit (talk) 00:07, 15 January 2019 (UTC)[reply] Restore and list at AfD. AfD is where we decide which articles we keep and which we don't. So far, we've taken several detours around that process. The AfD that was held was closed after less than a day. Then we had the first DRV. Then it was promoted via Articles for Creation, which doesn't count for much. And, finally, it was speedy deleted. None of these involve the community spending a full seven days discussing the merits (or lack thereof) and the discussion being closed by a neutral party. And, trout to whoever thought recreating it under a different title was a good thing to do. -- RoySmith (talk) 15:28, 16 January 2019 (UTC)[reply] The different titles are unfortunate, but as mentioned above the old and new articles were created by different people. I believe the creator of the new didn't know about the old. In other words, multiple people are wondering why Wikipedia doesn't say anything about this high profile event, and are starting drafts about it. That said, I believe the new title "Suicide of Katelyn Nicole Davis" is better than the old "Suicide of Katelyn Davis". A general Google search on ""Katelyn Nicole Davis"" returns 162,000 hits, while searching ""Katelyn Davis"" returns 88,000. Many of the other youth suicide pages on Category:Bullying_and_suicide also include their first, middle, and last names. Another reason why the new article is a major improvement upon the old. Thanks, Cruiser1 (talk) 21:42, 18 January 2019 (UTC)[reply] The creator of the new article must have known about the old version because s/he copied it. Hut 8.5 23:25, 18 January 2019 (UTC)[reply] Good point, it would have been better for them to start with the new draft having the same name as the old, and only after it enters article space do a rename to the better title. Anyway, RoySmith makes a point. There hasn't been a decent quality AfD for this article yet, or a real opportunity for a variety of people to discuss whether it should exist in the first place. That's why many comments on both sides that would be more suited for a AfD such as "show a bit of compassion" are appearing here. We've kind of expanded beyond the original issue of "is the new article sufficiently different from the old" in added/removed content/sources to justify G4. Thanks, Cruiser1 (talk) 22:41, 20 January 2019 (UTC)[reply] I see I haven't !voted here so endorse having the article remaining deleted on the basis of my and other people's remarks above. Thincat (talk) 12:12, 17 January 2019 (UTC)[reply] Endorse per IAR. We really don't do ourselves any favors having an article like this out there. Let's show a bit of compassion.--WaltCip (talk) 19:06, 17 January 2019 (UTC)[reply] I don't know the parents, but I can't imagine if my daughter had gone through something like this that I wouldn't try to make the most of it in helping others. I just see it not being compassionate to the family to delete the article. No policy basis for that one way or the other (as you say, IAR), but I wanted to say how I feel about what is and isn't compassionate here. Hobit (talk) 03:45, 22 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it.

Suicide of Katelyn Nicole Davis – There is no consensus about whether the G4 speedy deletion was correct. Because speedy deletions are intended to be used in uncontroversial cases, such outcomes usually are referred to AfD, which I am doing now. Sandstein 07:41, 24 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the page above. Please do not modify it.

This page was speedy deleted claiming WP:G4, because a different page "Suicide of Katelyn Davis" about the event was deleted at an earlier point. However, the new page "Suicide of Katelyn Nicole Davis" is different in both references and content from the old page, so it should be evaluated independently on its own merits. For example, the old article was criticized for starting out with a casual DailyMail reference (and had a bunch of YouTube references), while the new article starts with the WP:RS The Independent (and has no YouTube references). The new article also has a section about effects and aftermath that wasn't present in the old, which further establishes notability and further demonstrates this is an entirely new article and should be treated as such. The old article was basically given WP:TNT and we started over. Remember, when applying WP:G4, "It excludes pages that are not substantially identical to the deleted version, pages to which the reason for the deletion no longer applies". The new article came into being after a formal "Articles for Creation" process over three months ending in admin approval, which can be seen in the new article's logs. Personal note: I didn't create the new "Suicide of Katelyn Nicole Davis" article (and I don't know who did) although I did participate in improving the draft it once I noticed it was present in the AfC stream. Jauerback who speedy deleted this article has been contacted and suggested I make a DRV entry here. Thanks, Cruiser1 (talk) 20:50, 8 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Seven of the nine sources cited were present in the deleted article; one of the others is dead, and the other was mentioned at the AFD. Prose content's essentially identical. I don't see how this addresses any of the concerns at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Suicide of Katelyn Davis. Endorse. —Cryptic 21:08, 8 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Before debating specific references in the article, we should remember that "deletion review is not an opportunity to (re-)express your opinion on the content in question. It is an opportunity to correct errors in process". That said, yes, some content and references are similar between the old and new articles. Not every reference and sentence in the old article was bad. The important point is the bad references have been removed, and reliable references and content establishing notability have been added. Note the link https://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/dad-irish-teen-who-took-10356470 isn't dead, but works for me. Also the link https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/katelyn-nicole-davis-12-year-old-kill-herself-suicide-livestream-video-live-viral-cedartown-georgia-a7523666.html was mentioned in earlier discussions as a reliable reference from a source that's actually good to use and that many other Wikipedia articles make use of (as opposed to DailyMail that the old article used). More importantly, this separate article's draft went through and was approved in the formal Articles for Creation process, so if people don't like the new content, then they should discuss it on the new article's talk page, or go through an official 7 day deletion proposal instead of just speedy deleting it. Thanks, Cruiser1 (talk) 21:55, 8 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comment After looking at the background to this topic (but not looking at either of the deleted articles), I could imagine supporting a WP:IAR deletion without even undeleting temporarily to see whether the WP:G4 criteria were met (I suspect they were not). However, I would not endorse a deletion under specious reasons for speedy deletion. Are the articles such that it improves WP to ignore the strictures of G4 and just keep deleted anyway? Thincat (talk) 23:06, 8 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Comment A G4 should be relatively easy to figure out - I don't have access to the historical versions of these pages, though, so I can't comment on whether G4 is met or not. However, the SNOW deletion of the article in September raised some very serious issues and I would expect a new version of the page to fix those issues and clearly demonstrate notability. Based only on Cryptic's reference analysis, I don't see how either of those needs are met. I would keep deleted regardless. SportingFlyer talk 04:55, 9 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: Wikipedia is not censored (see WP:NOTCENSORED) so this page shouldn't be deleted or left deleted just because an editor finds it "shocking" or "too sensitive". There are many other youth suicide pages very similar to this one on Category:Bullying_and_suicide. There are also other filmed suicide pages such as Suicide of Kevin Whitrick which have been deemed notable enough to easily survive [deletion proposal]. This page should exist because it's a highly notable event in both categories, a unique case of a youth suicide that was filmed, which literally millions of people saw on social media. (That makes this the most watched suicide in world history.) Fortunately, because this case pushed Facebook and others toward increased scanning and reporting, an event like this shouldn't ever happen again! Anyway, if this iconic page is deleted, then we should also delete all those other less notable pages. But as stated before, deletion review shouldn't be the place we debate wider Wikipedia policy or even the content of this page. All we're supposed to do here is determine whether the speedy deletion was appropriately applied due to the spurious claim of the new article being identical to the old. Thanks, Cruiser1 (talk) 05:52, 9 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

To be fair, no one here has argued the article is too shocking or too sensitive, nor is this another bite at the AfD apple. A quick review of the available material clearly shows this article had multiple issues that would need to be addressed in a new version, were that new version to survive an AfD. The fact this was recreated under a new title less than three months after a snow delete AfD would concern me regardless of the topic. SportingFlyer talk 07:43, 9 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree that "no one here has argued the article is too shocking or too sensitive". I was replying to Thincat above who said, "After looking at the background to this topic... I could imagine supporting a WP:IAR deletion without even undeleting temporarily to see whether the WP:G4 criteria were met (I suspect they were not)." That's a strong statement, and we don't want this discussion to get derailed. Anyway, yes, people raised three issues with the old article, which contributed to it failing AfD: (1) Old article had a DailyMail reference and several YouTube primary source references, none of which exist in the new article. (2) Old article mentioned allegations of abuse against specific living persons, which has been removed from the new article. (3) Old article didn't cover long term effects of the event beyond the news reporting, which has been addressed with a new section in the new article. But again, the old article is gone and isn't on trial here, and the new article passed AfC and was approved for article space after several iterations. Since the new article addresses all the old issues, it should survive AfD should it ever get proposed again. Thanks, Cruiser1 (talk) 03:07, 10 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I hadn't (and still haven't) read either article to see if I find them shocking. Rather, the topic seems to me unsuitable for my concept of an encyclopedia. Why, then, do I find myself !voting "keep" for so many articles I think are on useless topics? It is because I don't like to hurt the feelings of editors who have put in work on matters that seem important to them. But in this case it is not the feelings of the editors I am most concerned about. It is the feelings of those whose lives have been wrecked. I can't start to know what I'd feel if this were my daughter but I wouldn't want the tragedy incorporating into Wikipedia. Thincat (talk) 12:05, 17 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Endorse the article did "go through an official 7 day deletion proposal instead of just speedy deleting it", and it was deleted. We don't reopen these issues unless something has changed, and I don't see anything here. The main concern in the AfD was WP:BIO1E, namely that the subject is only notable for a single event which had little lasting impact and is only known because of a brief flurry of media coverage. There isn't anything here which comes vaguely close to addressing that. Of the "new" sources [1] was linked to in the AfD, so the participants were clearly aware of it and it didn't change the outcome, and [2] barely mentions the subject at all. Apart from that last reference everything cited is part of the brief flurry of media coverage after her death and doesn't demonstrate lasting impact. The claim that the case prompted Facebook to change its procedures isn't supported by the sources. The article also contained the same BLP issues as the AfDed version and all of the prose of the AfDed version was present. Hut 8.5 07:54, 9 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, the old version of this article never did "go through an official 7 day deletion proposal instead of just speedy deleting it". The old article was deleted a mere 19 hours after AfD proposal, which is hardly time for anybody to even notice the discussion, much less participate. Remember, even WP:SNOW warns that "closers should beware of interpreting 'early pile on' as necessarily showing how a discussion will end up". Anyway, alas now the very different new article is also being stealth deleted behind the scenes, without ever having given a broad spectrum of editors a chance to notice or comment upon how much this topic deserves an article. That just seems wrong, and seems to be an end-run around proper Wikipedia process. I agree issues shouldn't be reopened unless things have changed, which is why everything raised about the old article has been addressed in the new (see above for details). The new article focuses on the event, not the person, which is why like similar articles it's titled "Suicide of X" instead of just "X", and uses {infobox event} instead of {infobox person}, which means WP:BIO1E doesn't apply. Links such as https://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/dad-irish-teen-who-took-10356470 demonstrate how the event isn't a one time piece of news, but is still being referenced many months later and has had lasting impact. The only problem raised with the prose of the old version was allegations of abuse against specific living persons, which has been removed from the new article, so just saying some of the text of the new article is similar to the old is a non-issue without being more specific. Thanks, Cruiser1 (talk) 03:07, 10 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The AfD was closed early because of the very strong support for deletion and the BLP concerns (concerns which haven't been eliminated in your version, FWIW). Retitling the article does not address the concerns in the AfD, and some AfD participants said exactly that. Changing the infobox makes even less difference. Literally all the coverage you have managed to find of this person after the event is the sentence There was widespread horror when American girl Katelyn Nicole Davis, 12, ended her life in January and the tragedy was streamed live on Facebook written in an Irish tabloid five months later. If that's all the subsequent coverage available then the event has not had lasting impact. Your version still includes various accusations of sexual and other abuse by living people. The article also said that police opened an investigation into those claims. Two years later that investigation has likely concluded, so what was the outcome? We don't know, because the event is too low profile. Hut 8.5 19:35, 10 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Forget about the old article! Suppose the old article never existed, and the new article is the first thing about the event to appear on Wikipedia. Now suppose you notice the new article after it got approved in the Articles for Creation process, and as you suggest above you personally believe that the event's long term impacts are weak. What would you do? Most would add a {notability|date=today} tag or such on it to allow the article to be improved and sources you like better to be found. Remember, WP:ARTN says, "if the source material exists, even very poor writing and referencing within a Wikipedia article will not decrease the subject's notability." If nobody finds anything after a while, only then propose a seven day AfD. An extreme deletionist would do a seven day AfD right away, which is technically allowed if a bit draconian. However to just nuke the article without even giving it a chance seems like censorship. Note that the old article never had any tags on it suggesting there was any problems with its quality (or if it did, they were added within the last few hours of its life). The old article was online for 19 months continuously without tags or even a hint of a problem, until suddenly without warning, within 24 hours it was "proposed" for AfD and deleted. Can you see why some are feeling cheated here? Note that even Jauerback who speedy deleted the new article admits "on my talk page" that he was unaware the new article had gone through and been approved in the public AfC process. Remember, the DRV guidelines say that "deletion review is not an opportunity to (re-)express your opinion on the content in question. It is an opportunity to correct errors in process". Even if you personally still find the new article insufficient in certain respects, I doubt anyone can deny a WP:GOODFAITH attempt has been made so far to address the old issues.
Visit the page Suicide of Kevin Whitrick. What does that article have that the new Suicide of Katelyn Nicole Davis article doesn't have? Katelyn Davis was much more reported on local, national, and international levels, and affected the literally millions of people who saw her death video before Facebook and such were able to get the upper hand. (Unlike other suicide articles, Katelyn's actual death is viewable online, and beyond that she recorded much of the last 30 days of her life, making this a one-of-a-kind valuable psychological perspective into the suicidal mindset.) This isn't an obscure topic. There are 35 separate support groups about Katelyn Nicole Davis on Facebook while there are 0 about Kevin Whitrick. In May of 2017, the page Suicide of Katelyn Davis received over 21,000 page views in the past 30 days. That's way more than all the other lower profile Category:Bullying_and_suicide pages (Suicide of Kevin Whitrick has just 650 in the past month). A general Google search on ""Katelyn Nicole Davis"" returns 140,000 hits, while searching ""Kevin Whitrick"" returns only 5200. I know that "Wikipedia isn't about things that are notable, but rather it's about things that have been noted" but this is a high profile topic that shouldn't be so quickly dismissed. Page https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Deletionism#Arguments_against_deletion says, "It can be frustrating for a reader to come to Wikipedia for information and inside find that the relevant article existed at one point but has been deleted. This discourages both Wikipedia readership and authorship." Thanks, Cruiser1 (talk) 04:29, 12 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

We can't forget about the old article because you're contesting a WP:G4 deletion. If it's a substantially similar article, it should remain deleted. You're also continuing to make arguments better suited for an AfD discussion. I would strongly suggest familiarising yourself with WP:BLUD and allowing this process to run its course. SportingFlyer talk 05:41, 12 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Endorse deletion. The "much better title" looks like a deliberate end-run around deletion, the text is pretty much the same and the same people are involved in both articles. Guy (Help!) 23:23, 9 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I would claim the alternate title is another point in support of keeping the article. Multiple people are wondering why Wikipedia doesn't say anything about the most widely seen suicide in history, and are starting drafts about it. There's nothing sneaky going on here. The new article was a draft for several months, effort was made to address all the issues raised about it before, it went through the formal AfC process where everybody had a chance to see and comment upon the new proposal, before it was approved for article space. A "deliberate end-run" would be just creating a new article directly that's identical to the old and hoping nobody notices. Thanks, Cruiser1 (talk) 03:07, 10 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Relist I'm not sure whether or not the article should be kept, but the snow close was wrong. . A proper afd might have eliminated the need for this review. DGG ( talk ) 06:59, 13 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
overturn speedy, list as desired WP:BIO1E says "The general rule is to cover the event, not the person." An attempt to cover this as an event, rather than a bio isn't "an end-run around deletion", it is exactly what policy says we should do. As an event article, this easily meets WP:N and isn't in obvious violation of our guidelines, certainly nowhere near clearly enough for a speedy deletion. The SNOW closed discussion was about sources (which have gotten somewhat better, a paragraph here, a bit more than a paragraph here are probably the best new sources) and BLP1E (which doesn't clearly apply given the change to an event article among other potential arguments). My guess is that the sources remain weak enough we may well end up deleting this, but there is no need to bypass AfD. Hobit (talk) 00:31, 14 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
- Also, in general, I think an article that makes it through our AfC process should probably be given the benefit of the doubt when it comes to a G4. This warrants a discussion IMO. Hobit (talk) 08:02, 15 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

To be fair, I don't think it would have made it through AfC if it had the same title as the original. I personally would never accept an article at AfC if it had been recently deleted at AfD unless something had clearly changed, like a SNG being met. AfC clearly shows you how many times an article with the same title has been deleted, and this should be taken into consideration by those at AfC. (To be clear, I wouldn't decline the article on G4 grounds unless I could easily find a cache somewhere, since I can't see the history for a deleted article. I'd comment and leave it for someone else.) SportingFlyer T·C 08:47, 15 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Sure, but we are talking about a topic that does have new sources (I provided two that I think are newer than the original AfD and I understand there were others), a new title (making it more compliant with BLP1E), and some new text. It also cleared AfC. I'm not saying the article should be kept, I'm saying it's not a clear speedy. And a G4 of that quite truncated AfD isn't ideal either (per DGG). Hobit (talk) 19:54, 15 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The first AfD cleared a deletion review, though. I see it as settled. SportingFlyer T·C 21:21, 15 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

A possible compromise: If some don't like that the AfC process thread didn't clearly show that this is an improved version of a previously deleted article, then why don't we just move this back to draft space? We can add appropriate comments indicating its history before submitting it again. We can also add the two new sources Hobit mentioned above, which are high quality since they're published books, and which have NOT yet been included in any version of this article. Thanks, Cruiser1 (talk) 02:34, 16 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
It did clear a review (I had missed that) but the discussion was sparse and the outcome was no consensus. I think further discussion is reasonable. Hobit (talk) 04:26, 16 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Endorse. She was twelve years old, and she reached international attention by committing suicide on video. I believe that it's irresponsible for Wikipedia to cover this. The risk of encouraging copycat behaviour is admittedly small, but it's not zero, and in my view a potential harm that serious outweighs the relatively minor benefit of covering the event.—S Marshall T/C 23:39, 14 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
- There is some risk of that, I agree. But there is also the hope that it will discourage copycat behavior by understanding just how much it hurt loved ones. Also, it can help get people to think about the impact of bullying (and is used as such in one of the sources I listed). I believe it would be a net positive--but I certainly can't prove that. Hobit (talk) 00:07, 15 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Restore and list at AfD. AfD is where we decide which articles we keep and which we don't. So far, we've taken several detours around that process. The AfD that was held was closed after less than a day. Then we had the first DRV. Then it was promoted via Articles for Creation, which doesn't count for much. And, finally, it was speedy deleted. None of these involve the community spending a full seven days discussing the merits (or lack thereof) and the discussion being closed by a neutral party. And, trout to whoever thought recreating it under a different title was a good thing to do. -- RoySmith (talk) 15:28, 16 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The different titles are unfortunate, but as mentioned above the old and new articles were created by different people. I believe the creator of the new didn't know about the old. In other words, multiple people are wondering why Wikipedia doesn't say anything about this high profile event, and are starting drafts about it. That said, I believe the new title "Suicide of Katelyn Nicole Davis" is better than the old "Suicide of Katelyn Davis". A general Google search on ""Katelyn Nicole Davis"" returns 162,000 hits, while searching ""Katelyn Davis"" returns 88,000. Many of the other youth suicide pages on Category:Bullying_and_suicide also include their first, middle, and last names. Another reason why the new article is a major improvement upon the old. Thanks, Cruiser1 (talk) 21:42, 18 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The creator of the new article must have known about the old version because s/he copied it. Hut 8.5 23:25, 18 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Good point, it would have been better for them to start with the new draft having the same name as the old, and only after it enters article space do a rename to the better title. Anyway, RoySmith makes a point. There hasn't been a decent quality AfD for this article yet, or a real opportunity for a variety of people to discuss whether it should exist in the first place. That's why many comments on both sides that would be more suited for a AfD such as "show a bit of compassion" are appearing here. We've kind of expanded beyond the original issue of "is the new article sufficiently different from the old" in added/removed content/sources to justify G4. Thanks, Cruiser1 (talk) 22:41, 20 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I see I haven't !voted here so endorse having the article remaining deleted on the basis of my and other people's remarks above. Thincat (talk) 12:12, 17 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse per IAR. We really don't do ourselves any favors having an article like this out there. Let's show a bit of compassion.--WaltCip (talk) 19:06, 17 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
- I don't know the parents, but I can't imagine if my daughter had gone through something like this that I wouldn't try to make the most of it in helping others. I just see it not being compassionate to the family to delete the article. No policy basis for that one way or the other (as you say, IAR), but I wanted to say how I feel about what is and isn't compassionate here. Hobit (talk) 03:45, 22 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it.