The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by SandyGeorgia 00:28, 14 June 2009 [1].

Mariano Rivera[edit]

Nominator(s): Y2kcrazyjoker4 (talk) 16:38, 11 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
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I am nominating this for featured article because... it became a Wikipedia:Good article and received a peer review, and suggested changes were accordingly made to the article. It is well-sourced and well-written, covers the person's life in career in detail but is general enough for a casual reader to enjoy. Y2kcrazyjoker4 (talk) 16:38, 11 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Here are my comments. A lot of them are just suggestions... stuff I couldn't figure out how to fix myself.
  • "he was converted to closer" - is there any way to avoid passive voice here? For example did Joe Torre decide to convert him to a closer? Passive voice in the first paragraph just jumps out at me.
  • Related to the above item, you might avoid using technical terms like setup pitcher and closer in the intro? This will appear on the main page and most readers won't know what those terms mean. I don't see any convenient way around this though so I don't expect it to be addressed unless someone has a good idea.
  • Does the intro have to have so many inline citations? I was under the impression that citations were not needed in the intro if the claims were cited in the main body of the article. Currently it's a bit distracting, they are quite densely present.
  • Other than the use of technical terms, the intro's wording is very good and does just what an intro needs to do in a FA.
  • "In 1990, a 20-year-old Rivera, then a shortstop, volunteered to pitch for his Panamá Oeste team" - I follow baseball and even I don't know what is meant by "his Panamá Oeste team". Can this be clarified?
  • "Yankees' management reportedly made a trade offer of Rivera to the Seattle Mariners for Randy Johnson, but the Mariners rejected the deal" - The way this is worded might suggest the Yankees were very down on Rivera and just wanted to get rid of him, it might be a good idea to clarify that Randy Johnson at this time was a premier pitcher to be trading for?
  • "There were concerns that the disappointment of the previous season's end would affect Rivera's performance in the future" - too vague, a FA should probably define who was concerned. Yankees management, fans, sportwriters, all of the above?
  • "Rivera won his third consecutive World Series title" - is it proper to say he won his WS title when the WS is a team championship? "helped the Yankees win their third..." sounds better to me, but I'm not sure.
  • "Rivera signed a two-year contract extension" - missing details, shouldn't this give the dollar value of the extension?
  • "began their historic comeback" - this doesn't explain why the comeback was historic. It was because no team had ever come back from 0-3, right?
  • The 2007-2008 section is a bit problematic. First of all, these years were not quite as notable as his earlier years, but this section is the longest of any - suggesting issues with recentism. Second, despite the length, it doesn't mention his 2007 postseason performance. Some trivia like "Rivera also became the first pitcher since 1975 to successfully convert his first 22 save opportunities without allowing any runs in those outings" could probably go. Recentism is a major problem in sports articles... Wikipedia didn't exist or at least wasn't very popular in Rivera's best years, but that doesn't mean we should have longer sections for his more recent years simply because people wrote more content about Rivera in those years.
  • Other than recentism, my biggest concern is that many terms and phrases used in this article ("Moved him into the bullpen", "blew three of his first six save opportunities") will render much of this article baffling to non-baseball fans. I imagine a non-fan reviewer will be along to address that though, so just wait for them... I can't be unbiased about baseball.
All in all it's a good baseball biography article. Fixing the recentism issues might require removing some sentences, but I think it will result in a better article. --Chiliad22 (talk) 20:08, 11 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I will try and tackle your suggestions one at a time as I can get to them. Y2kcrazyjoker4 (talk) 21:03, 11 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the feedback - I'll try and fix some of the immediate things you just brought up. Y2kcrazyjoker4 (talk) 21:03, 11 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The Career Statistics table? I'm not sure what's wrong with it, or what "them" is referring to. The columns? The rows? Maybe you could mock something up in a sandbox page to show me what you would do with it? Y2kcrazyjoker4 (talk) 02:22, 12 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, upon further inspection, I think I see what you meant - can you give the Career Statistics table another look? Y2kcrazyjoker4 (talk) 02:44, 12 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comments by TonyTheTiger
My response to TonyTheTiger's comments:
  • Linked scout (sports)
  • Mentioned the leagues for all minor league affiliates.
  • Mentioned the level of all minor league affiliates.
  • Added 3x Major League saves leader (both times he led the AL, he led the Majors).
  • Added a few minor league stats. Let me know if this is still insufficient.
  • I do not know if he was a minor-league All-Star - I've never seen it mentioned in all the sources I've read through.
  • I had already mentioned the long-form of the Division and Championship series before using the acronyms, but just be on the safe side, I've removed all usage of the acronyms.
  • All citations follow a period, comma, or semi-colon.
  • Added a citation to ESPN game recap for him being carried on his teammates shoulders.
Thanks for the comments. Y2kcrazyjoker4 (talk) 16:03, 12 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Okay, so this is the excerpt that's on ESPN? Probably need to make it clear that you're not using the book but just the excerpt on ESPN, perhaps something like: Olney, Buster (2005). "Excerpt from the Epilogue for The Last Night of the Yankee Dynasty: The Game, the Team, and the Cost of Greatness". ESPN. Retrieved 2006-08-10.?
Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:56, 12 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
My response to Ealdgyth's comments:
  • Removed the citation and used a combination of 3 refs already in use to show a different speeds being cited.
  • I don't have the physical copy of the book available, so I don't know the page number. But the actual Epilogue is freely available on ESPN.com, and it's linked to in the reference.
Thanks for the comments. Y2kcrazyjoker4 (talk) 16:03, 12 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
There you go! All done. Have fun at FAC in the future! Ealdgyth - Talk 16:50, 12 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Reference 8 (from Birth of a Dynasty) is also from a book, and should be handled similarly to the Olney cite. If a page number is needed for either of these books, please let me know because I happen to have both of them. Also, reference 76 needs an access date. Giants2008 (17-14) 19:36, 12 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've made the Birth of a Dynasty reference mirror the Last Night of the Yankee Dynasty reference in formatting. Y2kcrazyjoker4 (talk) 02:30, 13 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comments – I'm a Yankees fan, so I can't possibly be objective with this one. After reading the article again following my participation in the peer review, one thing stuck out at me: there is really nothing on how important Rivera was during the team's run of three consecutive World Series championships from 1998 to 2000. Many in the media have argued that he was the most important factor in the Yankees' success. That is an important part of his legacy, and perhaps deserves some mention in the appropriate season summaries. Other than that, I still think the article could use a copy-edit to improve the writing and clean up all the baseball jargon. Good luck with the FAC, as it's nice to see something here that brings back fond memories from when I was growing up. Giants2008 (17-14) 23:15, 13 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • I tried to address this in the season summaries, but I ended up putting the most important information in the "Legacy" section. The 1997-2001 season summary goes into some details about this postseason success with the Yankees, while the "Legacy" section tries to tie a bow around his career as a whole. Y2kcrazyjoker4 (talk) 18:47, 14 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I tried as much as possible to fill this hole. Please review and let me know. Y2kcrazyjoker4 (talk) 14:55, 19 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
--Laser brain (talk) 20:19, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Image concern as follows:

  • File:Rivera2.jpg: as stated by the templates, a local admin should check the local file's history on what license the image was first supplied with.

Other Images check out fine. Jappalang (talk) 13:23, 7 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose Too many issues at the moment.

Resolved issues from BUC (talk) 14:06, 14 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Major League Baseball's (MLB) New York Yankees" makes it sound like MLB own the Yankees.
  • Rephrased as "New York Yankees team of Major League Baseball (MLB)." Y2kcrazyjoker4 (talk) 19:31, 13 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "After a breakout year" reader may not know what a "breakout year" is.
  • OK, maybe the word "breakthrough" then? Either one seems like a pretty basic vocabulary word the reader should know. Y2kcrazyjoker4 (talk) 19:31, 13 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Refer to him as either just "Mariano" or just "Rivera" thoughout the article, not both.
  • "Rivera pitched 26 consecutive scoreless innings, including 15 consecutive hitless innings." reader may not quite understand this. If they were consecutive, does that mean he pitched them all at once in the same game?
  • This should be pretty clear from context clues, since this fact is prefaced by "From April 15-May 21" and it has been explained in the article that Rivera only pitches the late innings of games. Y2kcrazyjoker4 (talk) 19:31, 13 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "and finished with a 1.91 ERA, and clinched the Yankees' victory in the World Series" remove the first "and".
  • "a historic 125-win season" why was it historic?
  • Rephrased to say "a season in which the Yankees won a Major League record 125 wins between the regular season and the playoffs." Y2kcrazyjoker4 (talk) 19:31, 13 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Metallica's song "Enter Sandman"...suggested Rivera was entering to put hitters to sleep." Did someone actually said this was the reason for the song or is it just a general assumption?
    This is how the song is interpreted - there is no evidence to say that is specifically why it was chosen. Rephrased to say "features lyrics about an evil entity giving children nightmares and precedes Rivera's jog from the bullpen to the pitchers mound". Y2kcrazyjoker4 (talk) 19:31, 13 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "35 postseason innings for a 0.51 ERA, qualifying himself for the Major League's record for lowest career postseason ERA" "qualifying himself"?
  • Well, you can't just pitch one scoreless inning and have a record-setting 0.00 ERA - he passed the 30 inning minimum for the record's eligibility. Rephrased to say "a 0.51 ERA. This qualified him for the Major League's record for lowest career postseason ERA by reaching the 30 inning minimum for eligiblity; he still holds this record." Y2kcrazyjoker4 (talk) 19:31, 13 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Fans at Yankee Stadium booed him" I don't think "booed" needs to be linked.
  • In other countries, fans express their displeasure in other ways, like whistling. Booing is not something that all readers may understand the significance of. Y2kcrazyjoker4 (talk) 19:31, 13 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "he struck out in his first career regular season at-bat" a bit trivial.
  • "39 saves in 40 chances" you were saying "opportunities" before, be consistent.
  • "the best "out pitch" in baseball" reader may not know what an out pitch is.
  • "the best ever, no doubt..." why the periods?
  • Reference is not specific, but it's pretty obvious as a baseball fan that those evaluations come from baseball scouts - fixed. Y2kcrazyjoker4 (talk) 19:31, 13 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • Say it's from a scout then.
  • The first time the word "miles-per-hour" is used in the article (throwing 87-88 miles-per-hour), it is wikilinked, not abbreviated, and followed by the abbreviation, thus making it unnecessary to spell the phrase out in every subsequent instance (such as the one above). Y2kcrazyjoker4 (talk) 19:31, 13 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • One instence of spelling it out isn't really enough.
  • Yes it is according to basic rules of grammar and style, which state that once one spells out an abbreviation once, one does not have to do so again in the work. Otherwise, there would be no point to abbreviating at all. Also, the article is not written for a three-year-old, so really if someone cannot figure out what MPH means from the clues already given in the article it is not really our problem. In other news, some of our readers may not know what the word "professional" or the word "success" in the first paragraph of the article means as well. Maybe we should include links to dictionary entires for every word in the article? Indrian (talk) 15:48, 14 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • But that is what they did, isn't it? For readers that don't know what the importance of having a shutdown bullpen is, this should get the point across. Y2kcrazyjoker4 (talk) 19:31, 13 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • It doesn't literally shorten the game so some people may find this confusing.
  • Right, it does not litreally shorten games, it essentially shortens games, which is exactly what the article says, backed up by evidence in the article that the team lost only 3 games in which they led after six innings. Give the readers of wikipedia articles some credit. Indrian (talk) 15:48, 14 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Trying to keep each section balanced in the amount of prose it has. I can divide up the years a little more evenly, though, if that is not important. Y2kcrazyjoker4 (talk) 19:31, 13 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • I've alway felt with team sports players, the only time a new section in needed is when they change teams.
  • While I agree with you that sorting by years is arbitrary, your suggested solution clearly does not work for a player that has spent fifteen years with the same team. The FA style rules clearly demand breaking an article into more subheadings than that. Indrian (talk) 15:48, 14 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Unnecessary - closer is already linked in the section on 1996 when describing John Wetteland. Y2kcrazyjoker4 (talk) 19:31, 13 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Again one instance isn't really enough.
  • This is explained by the rest of the sentence - he pitched well enough to be an All-Star and finish with respectable stats. Y2kcrazyjoker4 (talk) 19:31, 13 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • How is it POV to call Randy Johnson, 4x Cy Young winner and one of the greatest pitchers ever, a premier starting pitcher? Y2kcrazyjoker4 (talk) 19:31, 13 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • You think he's "a premier starting pitcher" others may not.
  • Wow, this comment is so ridiculous it is almost hard to respond to, but I will give it a shot. Wikipedia policy on POV states that wikipedia must represent "all significant views that have been published by reliable sources" [emphasis in original] Now, do you really think that there is a sinlge source that meets that criteria that does not think Randy Johnson is a premier pitcher. Go ahead, bring one here. Find a significant viewpoint, one that has gained scholarly support from a distinguished group of experts, that says Randy Johnson was an overrated or non-premire pitcher. I'll wait right here. Oh, what, you could not find one? Yeah, that's what I thought. Seriously, NPOV does not mean one avoids using superlatives when they have been earned. Indrian (talk) 15:48, 14 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • This is explained in great detail by the summaries of his 1998, 1999, and 2000 seasons. Y2kcrazyjoker4 (talk) 19:31, 13 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm not sure what the problem is? Y2kcrazyjoker4 (talk) 19:31, 13 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • If he plays for the Yankees, why is the White Sox manager using him?
  • It is not really the job of this article to explain the intricacies of the All Star game. If the reader is curious about the issue you raised, he can go to the page on the all star game himself. Indrian (talk) 15:48, 14 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • A bunch of losses and a higher ERA, but I removed specific stats because of "recentism". I don't think this needs to be expanded. Y2kcrazyjoker4 (talk) 19:31, 13 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • The historical value of this piece of info is too great to shorten, though. In the thousands of games and tens of thousands of innings of baseball that took place at Yankee Stadium, Rivera was the last pitcher to record the last out in a game in the venue. Y2kcrazyjoker4 (talk) 19:31, 13 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Not all his stats from 2008 were better than 2005 (e.g. innings pitched, ERA). Even though I think it was his best year, I can't make a judgment call for this article and say 2008 was definitely his best. Y2kcrazyjoker4 (talk) 19:31, 13 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • ... because the same writers call him one of the best closers ever? I'm not sure why this needs clarification. Y2kcrazyjoker4 (talk) 19:31, 13 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Not all career highlights need references, as some of them have Wikilinks that take you to a separate article with the highlight already listed (e.g. World Series MVP - an article is already dedicated to the history of this award). Y2kcrazyjoker4 (talk) 19:31, 13 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • Even if it has a ref in another article it still needs a ref in this one.
  • Stats are from Baseball-Reference, but I can put a specific ref right after the "Current as of" text. Y2kcrazyjoker4 (talk) 19:31, 13 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Unfamiliar baseball terms are all Wikilinked in their first mention, and the importance of certain awards is explained. Furthermore, I went to great lengths to explain Rivera's place and history and the importance of his statistical rankings in the "Legacy" section. You should point specific portions of the article that need fixing. Y2kcrazyjoker4 (talk) 19:31, 13 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • I'm a baseball fan so I can't do the proof reading for you. You will have to fing someone else. With baseball terms, a link in the first instance isn't really enough, also, if you can, you want to keep the reader on the same page, rarther than forcing them to go elsewhere, they may not come back.

BUC (talk) 14:06, 14 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • I appreciate BUC taking the time to look through this article and discovering several areas that still needed improving to get it up to FA status, but at the same time I am disheartened by other points that are listed here that would actually hurt the article if they were implemented. I am unsure why BUC feels that a three-year-old with Attention Deficit Disorder (ADD) is the target audience for this article and therefore wants to remove all sophistication from it by needlessly sidetracking to define every last word or concept in the article and therefore completely bog it down with tangents. I may be a baseball fan, but I have read baseball books and articles intended for all age levels and all levels of knowledge of the game, and most of them use just as many abbreviations as this one because concepts like American League (AL), earned run average (ERA), and most valuable player (MVP) are relatively simple and, once defined, need not be spelled out every time they are used to needlessly lengthen the article. This is just good writing, period. I have addressed certain other specific points above. I feel it really would be a shame if an article that has steadily grown in quality over the last month had to take a small step backwards at the whims of a single user to gain the featured status it is close to deserving. Indrian (talk) 15:48, 14 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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