List of people with epilepsy

Aristotle made one. Many books on epilepsy have one. Every epilepsy charity web site has one (try Google). I believe this list is unique and represents Wikipedia's very best work. Unlike many other such lists, this one has references for every person and does not include speculative retrospective diagnoses. I think it meets all the criteria. OK, it doesn't have pictures or colourful tables. A previous peer review can be found here. This is a self nomination. Colin°Talk 16:15, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

As an incomplete/dynamic list it can be acceptable "by not omitting any major component of the subject". It is pretty difficult to prove this, so that might be a drawback. I can assure you that I have been thorough in researching books, newspapers and reliable online sources over many, many months. Every single person listed on a "Famous people" list has been checked for suitability/verifiability and are noted on the talk page if they fail. The List of notable brain tumor patients had/has similar issues but was accepted. Colin°Talk 16:46, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
Difference is, most of the people in the brain tumor list are dead already. Brain tumor diagnosis is relatively easy and unambiguous, unlike epilepsy. Also, for such a widespread condition the list indeed seems fairly short. -- Rune Welsh | ταλκ 17:49, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
These are problems with the subject matter and entry criteria, which aren't changable without it becoming a different list. As editors, we don't need to worry about ease of diagnosis - verifiability, not truth. Yes, epilepsy is widespread. It is also quite treatable (and therefore not noticable) and has a stigma attached (many folk thinking it is a mental illness, for example). Many notable people will not mention their epilepsy. If you die of a brain tumour, your obituary is going to mention it for sure. I really can't think of how to make the list significantly longer without adding all the "rumoured to have" names - of which there are about 40 (see this article). As I said on the peer review, a list of opinions is not as useful as a list of facts (which can be verified).
Are there any other points on which this would fail, other than comprehensiveness? Colin°Talk 18:57, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
Don't think so. It is a very good list, very well referenced. If I wanted to be really cruel and nitpicky I would say the intro is a bit too short. But too see that there is only one person in science section... hm... Renata 00:09, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
Please remember that when the brain tumor list got featured, it had 65 names (vs 39 on this one) and only one scientist. [1] It now has 106 names and only three scientists. Scientists don't get much press compared with sports, actors, etc. Colin°Talk 13:49, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
I'd say that regarding all the living people you should follow the guidelines at WP:LIVING, especially the bit about "high-quality" references. Although the vast majority of the references you have are very good, you still have a good number of links to personal websites and magazines. You need to define the scope of your sources too, else you run the risk that other editors could end up using tabloids as sources just because their citation can be verified.
Additionally, the wording on the lead is confusing and does not define the entry criteria clearly: the use of tense in "believed to have had" does not square with "retrospective or posthumous diagnosis" in the following sentence. For instance, Julius Caesar is "believed to have had" epilepsy but that's a retrospective diagnosis, so which one of the criteria should prevail and why? Once you decide you need to reword the lead and adjust the list accordingly. -- Rune Welsh | ταλκ 09:29, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

I've added substantially to this article: two new sections covering retrospective diagnoses and misdiagnoses. Altogether, it now contains about 90 people, more than any single "famous people with epilepsy" site. More details on the talk page. Can you consider it to be comprehensive now? Colin°Talk 23:18, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

I have to disagree quite strongly with this. The charge of "trivia" could be made against most of the featured lists by one group or another. I have absolutely no interest in cricket and can't get excited about any of those lists. Presumably those who are interested in cricket would beg to differ.
This list (IMO) is one of the very best lists in Wikipedia of people with a medical condition. Such lists are currently being discussed at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (Medicine-related articles)#Suggestion. It is also quite unique on the Internet (or anywhere for that matter) in the quality of its sources and standards. I believe it offers the only (!) source on the Internet where one might reliably find out about notable people with epilepsy. No other list comes close. If you don't believe me, just Google.
This list is useful. A user researching this topic can gain all sorts of epilepsy related information from people throughout history. We can learn how people in the past tried to hide their epilepsy, whereas several modern celebrities are happy to give interviews or speeches to discuss it. Perhaps most useful of all is the new section of misdiagnoses. Correcting these spurious mistakes of history-writers is a very important purpose for this article. The misdiagnosis of epilepsy amongst the general population is remarkably high (perhaps a third of hard-to-treat epilepsy isn't actually epilepsy).
Do we learn something about this group? Yes, we learn that people with epilepsy can excel in every aspect of society from sport to academia, from literature to leadership. This encouraging statement is repeated on most epilepsy sites. Where epilepsy has a stigma and is often associated with learning difficulties and other disabilities, it is great for parents/children affected to know that epilepsy need not bar you from anything. You only have to notice how the epilepsy charities scramble to get celebrities to "come out" and be ambassadors for them. User:SandyGeorgia made a similar comment regarding his list of people with Tourette syndrome.
Finally, I hope readers stumbling across this list will read it and say "Oh, I didn't know that" and felt they have learned something intesting or corrected a previous belief. Regards, Colin°Talk 08:38, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
The MOS page only shows you using the list as an example for your comments. In responce to "Do we learn something about this group? Yes, we learn that people with epilepsy can excel in every aspect of society" This isn't an after school special, and Wikipedia isn't here to make everyone feel warm and fuzzy. The fact that people with epilepsy can live a full and successful life is something already covered in Epilepsy. I would agree that there are likely more featured lists that are just trivia, and should have their featured status taken down. Like I said, this is a good article, it's well cited, but it's just so... trivial. I believe you when you say it's one of the best when compared to other lists of people with epilepsy, but that doesn't address what I was saying. To be honest with you, despite this list being better than most, it could use more improvement. The lead section contains at least one self reference, and the speculation section of "No evidence".. well.. that really shouldn't be there.. So other than the encouraging thoughts and "oh that's interesting" reactions, I'm not sure what else a reader will take from this. I'd hope that particularly notable situations (such as ones that involve specialized treatment or that changed how the condition is viewed) would be covered in the main Epilepsy article. I donno, maybe I'll take a fresh look at the list again in the morning, but.. I'm just not seeing this as featured material. -- Ned Scott 10:05, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
Thinking more about Colin's responses to me, as well as Rune.welsh's comments below, I think that maybe I am wrong about my evaluation on such lists. I withdraw my oppose.-- Ned Scott 01:15, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

I've added more names (46 certain, 4 retrospective, 48 negative = 98 names). I experimented with CG's suggestion of using tables as per the brain tumour list. I decided this was more readable and neater so have moved over to tables rather than a bullet-list. Following Rule.Welsh's query, I've performed an audit of the sources for still-living people and posted the results on the talk page – I think the sources are OK but please comment. I've also changed the order from alphabetical to chronological – it is easier to order people with names that aren't obviously forename/surname. I've also tweaked the wording here and there. Finally, I've even added a picture, which I think helps make it more real. I hope this now meets the standards for comprehensiveness and presentation. I'd appreciate some more opinions. Thanks for your time. Colin°Talk 21:38, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it's far better now. Just two comments before I vote. I like to compare the list with the exellent List of notable brain tumor patients: First, could the two titles have the same structure? eg: List of notable people with epilepsy or List of notable epilepsy patients (I don't know if the terminology is right). And second, could the lead be expanded? you can take List of notable brain tumor patients's lead as a model. CG 13:35, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
Thanks. Wrt over-reliance: I will endevour to find and detail either supportive or contradictory sources for each of these names, so that the reader gets as complete a picture as possible and can make their own mind up. Colin°Talk 12:43, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
I've posted a note at Talk:List of notable brain tumor patients, where it can be discussed further. Colin°Talk 13:14, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
The list is currently weak wrt religious figures. There are, as you say, numerous articles listed on PubMed that contain speculation regarding Temporal Lobe Epilepsy and almost any religious figure who claimed to have had visions. I have bunch of names which I am preparing to add to a new section on Religious Figures.
Other improvements will include the addition of other opinions where there remains controversy regarding the diagnosis. This may result in some names moving from "no" to "possible" in order to reflect the level of doubt currently appropriate.
I anticipate that there will be shortly close to 60 names in the yes/possible group (currently 50). This is comparable with the level in the brain tumour list when it was featured. I agree that comparisons between the two lists are only useful to a certain extent.
I have already discussed the difficulty of producing a bigger list of "yes" names. For comparison, please consult Epilepsy.com, Epilepsy Foundation, Epilepsy Action, NSE, Epilepsy Museum, Enlighten, Epinet and finally, a personal web page. If none of these big epilepsy organisations can produce a more comprehensive list (and believe me, they would love to have more names) then this indicates that the information just isn't available. I have a list of about a dozen names from the web that aren't notable (and as such most have no reliable evidence either). I also have a handful of names from the web that lack evidence. A few of these I suspect are genuine and may eventually appear in the list if evidence comes forward. The others I think are spurious. As a test, it is relatively easy (if very labourious) to scan online US and UK newspapers for "epilepsy" and other keywords. This subject just gets very little news. Yes, there are far more famous names with epilepsy, but they are keeping it a secret. Colin°Talk 10:49, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
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