Wikipedia Mediation Cabal
ArticleCarmen Miranda
StatusClosed
Request date09:59, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
Requesting partyUnknown
Mediator(s)The WordsmithCommunicate

Request details

Where is the dispute?

Talk:Carmen_Miranda#Nationality_and_WP:MOSBIO

Who is involved?

What is the dispute?

The matter in dispute is the one regarding Carmen Miranda citizenship. In the lede of the english language biography article of this person it is claimed she is "portuguese-born brazilian" using a source for it. After a consultation of this source it doesn't claim Carmen Miranda had brazilian citizenship nor use the expression "portuguese-born brazilian" anywhere. No further reliable sources were found or presented that claim the maintaining of the actual expression. In the other hand many reliable sources show she maintained her portuguese citizenship till the day she died. Using WP:MOSBIO rules in the intro of the articles regarding biography one should only refer to the citizenship of the person and so it should read that Carmen Miranda was portuguese. I personaly also agree with the expression "portuguese brazilian" but not "portuguese-born brazilian".

What would you like to change about this?

As stated above the users that defends the expression "portuguese-born brazilian", haven't showed reliable sources to maintain the current expression. In the other hand many reliable sources state she was only a portuguese citizen, since she have born in Portugal. To claim she was a brazilian citizen is only based on personal opinions and so the reference to that should be removed from the lede of the article as WP:MOSBIO rule states. This will avoid the misleading information she had brazilian citizenship when in fact she didn't.

How do you think we can help?

Although i understand this informal mediation will not "take sides" i hope it can do the following: - Find Wikipedia:Reliable sources that prove Carmen Miranda had also brazilian citizenship besides her portuguese one to support she had dual citizenship (a thing that still haven't be presented by the users that claim she had brazilian citizenship and also there are reliable sources that shows dual citizenship was forbidden in those times) - Resolve the dispute regarding the use of the expression "portuguese-born brazilian" instead of "portuguese brazilian". (one or is portuguese, or is brazilian or is portuguese-brazilian) - Comment on the WP:MOSBIO rule and the evidence that only citizenship should be used in the lede. - Help correct the current lede if possible.

Mediator notes

Nationalism disputes can get nasty, so i'll take this one quickly to get it off the queue. In the interest of keeping this one from spiraling out of control, i'd like to establish a few ground rules:

Can we agree to these rules?

  • I notified Wildhartlivie, who has already responded below. I also notified the other registered user that I saw in the RFC, but he has not edited anything at all since mid-December, so I'm assuming he's either on vacation or has left wikipedia. In fact, I notified everyone on the original list above, since Tacv had not done so. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 18:50, 30 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Alright, then we'll wait to see who shows up. If another editor from the RFC wants to join in, that's fine with me. The WordsmithCommunicate 18:51, 30 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • 1) Any users who have participated in the previous discussions may be added as parties. If they're not already listed, the best way is to drop me a note on the talkpage of this mediation, or my user talk page. 2) I'm a he. 3) Of course, civility is a requirement for us to go forward. 4) It means we're going to look at what the sources say about the issue. The WordsmithCommunicate 06:37, 31 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
1) I have nothing against that. 2)I didn't ask if your were a he or she i asked who was the editor. Now i can see it is writen in the info box above, silly me. 3) Indeed, but we arent seing it till now on this discussion page. Thanks. Tacv (talk) 09:55, 31 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Administrative notes

Tacv has been blocked for 3 weeks. Xavexgoem (talk) 18:23, 4 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Reduced to 24h. Xavexgoem (talk) 00:40, 5 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

The complainant is a single-purpose account, that purpose being to claim both Carmen Miranda and Nelly Furtado as being prominently "Portugese", despite there being no evidence that they are primarily associated with Portugal, but rather with Brazil and Canada respectively. The Miranda article describes her as a "Portugese-born Brazilian [entertainer]", which is a succinct way of describing it and is verifiably correct. By dictionary definition, you don't have to be a Brazilian citizen to be Brazilian, as it means "of or pertaining to" Brazil. Miranda was prominently known as "The Brazilian Bombshell" and identified herself as Brazilian. The user has been on this crusade for some time now. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 12:05, 29 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

He also failed to notify the other users on the list, so I did that for him. I also notified the two other users who were involved in the RFC (noted below). I didn't notify the IP's as they are dynamic IP's emanating from Portugal, and are most likely the complaining user logged out. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 12:20, 29 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The complainant had earlier initiated an RFC within the article talk page, visible here [1], and having failed in that effort, let it sit for a couple of months and then started in on it again. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 12:25, 29 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
What you're not understanding is that Tacv and his various IPs do not want a compromise. They simply want to remove the Brazilian part altogether and only associate Miranda with Portugal. In fact, you'll be hard pressed to find any attempts at a compromise in the RfC as all they are compromised of is loads of text and claims of bias from editors that do not agree with them. Are there any reliable sources given that state Miranda even went back to Portugal after leaving? Are there any reliable sources stating she actually did retain her Portuguese citizenship until the day she died? I see claims of that on the talk page and even in the article but no sources. There's also a whole lot of speculation about the subject and what she may or may not have claimed or done which is utterly useless. Some reliable sources are needed to support these changes which is basically what has been said from the get-go. I did a cursory search yesterday and found a source that states Miranda received a Brazilian passport in 1953. Unless I'm missing something, doesn't one have to a be a citizen or at least a national of that country to receive a passport? That would mean at the very least Miranda was a naturalized citizen of Brazil thus she was Brazilian. That would mean that the current wording is correct and absolutely reflects Miranda's citizenship situation. As I said on the talk page, defending this lede every few months is getting tiresome. No one else has ever complained about the wording or been utterly confused by the lede because the article itself explains that the woman was born in Portugal, left at age two and was raised in Brazil. It really can't get any clearer. She's not the first person to be born in another country and rise to fame in another so I've no idea why anyone would be confused or mislead by the current wording. Pinkadelica♣ 15:35, 29 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The bottom line argument seems to be that because she was born in Portugal, she should be described as Portuguese and the originator cites MOS:BIO as the reason for his assertion. What the originator fails to address is 1) Miranda was moved to Brazil at the age of 1 year old and remained there as she grew up; 2) MOS:BIO actually says "Nationality & ethnicity – In the normal case this will mean the country of which the person is a citizen or national, or was a citizen (or national) when the person became notable. Since Miranda left Portugal at the age of one and grew up and became notable as a national of Brazil, MOS:BIO supports the use of the descriptor "Brazilian". Follow that with reliable sources referring to her as Brazilian (McGowan, Chris; Pessanha, Ricardo (1998). The Brazilian Sound: Samba, Bossa Nova, and the Popular Music of Brazil. Temple University Press. pp. 32. ISBN 1-566-39545-3.), this is essentially a POV driven filibuster to make her notable as being Portuguese, which is basically, a load of bull and an active effort to underine the WP:RfC here which arrived at the descriptor "Portguese-born Brazilian" which the originator claims is a non-existent phrase, which is also bull. It exists, she was born in Portugal, she was raised Brazilian. She represented Brazil professionally, she is not clearly and undisputedly "Portuguese". She did not represent herself as Portuguese in her work. This is a non-starter that is being pushed, very hard, by a POV editor who will not admit he was overruled by consensus. Wildhartlivie (talk) 19:12, 29 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I still don't understand why some editors don't stay to topic. I don't know why do they keep adressing the fact that i had a discussion on Nelly Furtado discution page that has nothing to do with the issue here being discussed and also the discussion i had there is already finnished and we all end in a agreement. I also ask the users/editors to avoid acussations like "tacv only wants to take Miranda to Portugal" or "tacv use many IPs adress" that are a clear and severe acusation and goes totaly against wikipedia policy. Regarding this issue and as User:Off2riorob already stated above, i made continuose proposals to User:Pinkadelica and others like User talk:Baseball Bugs that i can acept and agreement in the use on the intro of the article of the expression "Portuguese Brazilian" even though it still goes against Wiki Bio rules, but its a fair and easy way to end the dispute. The users/editors that i already refered didn't acept it, showing they don't want to give any space to nothing else than what they defend. To the above user, User:Wildhartlivie i have to say that the wikipedia rule MOS:BIO is very clear, it states In the normal case this will mean the country of which the person is a citizen or national, or was a citizen when the person became notable. Now Carmen Miranda never had brazilian citizenship and so the rule doesn't aply in this case. And besides Carmen Miranda became notable in the United States of America and not in Brazil. She actually lived most of her life in the USA where she also died using that idea then she should be considered Portuguese-American. Reliable sources that speak about her citenzenship all refer that she maintained her portuguese citizenship till the end of her life and there isn't a single reliable source that state that she adquired a brazilian one and so considering she had brazilian citizenship is a clear Wikipedia:Fringe theories. I also want to say that this issue was never a consensus as one can easily see by the history page of Carmen Miranda discussion page. Also a consensus can't go against the evidences and verifiable sources that i showed and are easily found on the internet. A consensus can't be based on opinions and lack of verifiable and reliable sources has the corrent "portuguese-born brazilian" expression is. I hope a Moderator can resolve this situation since some users don't give any space of maneuver Tacv (talk) 18:06, 30 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You using multiple IP addresses to !vote in the last consensus and your nationalistic POV pushing on other articles are actually on topic. You have repeatedly misrepresented situations (There was no "agreement" on the Nelly Furtado article. You attempted to push your POV there and got shot down my multiple editors just like the Miranda article) and accused others of wrongdoing (which you continue to do right here) in a vain attempt to remove content you don't like from articles. The bottom line here is that you do not have any sources to support your preferred wording. The last two consensuses were not based on anyone's opinions but on fact. Miranda was born in Portugal, left at age one and was raised in Brazil. She rose to fame and is associated with the country of Brazil. Her Portuguese heritage is clearly documented in the article as is her time in the United States. A sources was given supporting that she was, at the very least, a naturalized citizen of Brazil. If you want to personally deny that she was Brazilian, have at it, however, this English Wikipedia article is going to reflect that she was and is associated with that country. As I told you several times, your attempts to get the article changed every few months is tiresome. Find some reliable sources that explicitly state your supported wording or find another hobby. Pinkadelica♣ 19:02, 30 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
User:Baseball Bugs asked me to comment on this subject. The article makes it clear that Miranda was born in Portugal, but was raised in Brazil and this was her country. We cannot claim her as a mere "Portuguese" singer, only because she was born there. Her birth in Portugal is only a small detail in her biography and had no importance. She was raised in Brazil and became famous singing Brazilian music. She declared several times that she was Brazilian, not Portuguese. Opinoso (talk) 22:03, 2 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Speaking up for the moderator, hi Opinoso, please provide citations here to support your claims and comments, thanks. This bit "She declared several times that she was Brazilian, not Portuguese." Off2riorob (talk) 22:06, 2 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
And likewise, you and/or Tacv need to try to find any sources where she ever identified herself as Portugese. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 00:13, 3 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed, as I have seen so far, the citations regarding this self declaration appear weak as regards both sides, she never afaik stood up and said she was Portuguese but she kept her Portuguese passport her whole life. Off2riorob (talk) 00:18, 3 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The blood flowing through her bones was centuries old Portuguese genetics, her father was Portuguese and her mother was Portuguese, all her grandparents were Portuguese..all her great great ...? I don't see a good reason to refer to her as a Portuguese born Brazilian, that is to deny her heritage, it is a fair reflection of her reality if you simply call her a Portuguese Brazilian. Off2riorob (talk) 00:28, 3 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I found this from O Globo newspapers published in 1940:[2]

In Portuguese:

BRASILEIRA CEM POR CENTO - A FESTA PARA A "CIDADE DAS MENINAS"

Ainda a bordo, alguém lembrou a exploração que se fez aqui em torno da nacionalidade de Carmen Miranda, a propósito de certas referências da imprensa norte-americana que, às vezes, a apresentava como cantora portuguesa. Carmen acha ridículo e explica: - Sou brasileira cem por cento. E a primeira coisa que farei, de útil, no Rio, é cantar para a "Casa das Meninas", em apoio à grandiosa obra de assistência social promovida pela Sra. Darcy Vargas.

In English:

ONE HUNDRED PERCENT BRAZILIAN - THE PARTY FOR THE "CITY OF THE GIRLS"

While on board, someone remembered the exploration that was made here about the nationality of Carmen Miranda, with regard to certain references in the U.S. press that sometimes presented her as a Portuguese singer. Carmen finds it ridiculous and explains: - I am one hundred percent Brazilian. And the first useful thing I will do in Rio is to sing in the "House of Girls", to support the great work of social assistance promoted by Mrs. Darcy Vargas.

As we can see, Miranda herself declared that she was "one hundred percent Brazilian" and that to call her Portuguese is "ridiculous". Opinoso (talk) 00:34, 3 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the citation, my position is not that I want to call her this or that, just that I feel there is no reason not to attribute her historic inherited connection to the peoples of Portugal, actually it is hard to see a good reason to reject that. Off2riorob (talk) 00:38, 3 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The article does not hide her origins. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 00:43, 3 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Nobody's rejecting the fact that she was born in Portugal or that her parents were Portuguese. All these informations are cited in the article. However, this is only a small detail about her biography, since she was raised in Brazil and became a symbol of the Brazilian culture. She had no memories of Portugal, since she left the country when she was 1 year old and never returned there. The fact that she was raised by Portuguese parents may have influenced her, but it does not make her less Brazilian, because there was a large Portuguese community in Rio de Janeiro at that time, and many people had Portuguese parents as well, and nobody is less Brazilian because of that. Opinoso (talk) 00:52, 3 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yes agreed but there can be no reason to give her immigration to another country more of a status than all of her heritage and genetic history, why, there is no good reason not to respect her complete and genetic heritage.Off2riorob (talk) 01:01, 3 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
If a Ghanaian African born person rap singer comes to Britain when they are two years old and goes to school in Britain and grows up here after his parents emigrate but she keeps her Ghanaian passport and never becomes an English citizen then there is no way I am going to call him a Guianian born British person... never ever. Why would I do that? At the most he is through association a Ghanaian British person. Off2riorob (talk) 01:08, 3 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The fact is that Carmen Miranda identified herself as Brazilian, not as Portuguese. Her identification as Brazilian is what matters. Opinoso (talk) 01:12, 3 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, well the fact is there is a lot more opinion and discussion than yours, she has not strongly identified herself as Brazilian and in her life time never became a citizen of Brazil and constantly renewed her Portuguese passport and used it to travel.Off2riorob (talk) 01:16, 3 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe you missed the citations where she called herself Brazilian, and that she was finally granted a Brazlian passport in 1953 after requesting it in 1948. The claim that she never became a Brazilian citizen may be false. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 01:34, 3 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

What is her being discussed its not if she identified herself with Portugal or with Brazil. What is here being discussed is her citizenship. And also some users try so much to cut her portuguese roots that is almost laughable ridiculose and of course out of topic. After all if that was the discussion much could have been said about her relationship with Brazil, since she didn't returned to Brazil for more than 14 years.The editors that defend she was brazilian still haven't showed a singel reliable source that referes to her suposed "brazilian citizenship". Now about the topic: FACT 1: Carmen Miranda was born in Portugal to portuguese parents, all her family was portuguese, some direct cousins of her are still alive and live here in Portugal. FACT 2: Carmen Miranda had portuguese citizenship and never gave it up for a brazilian one. She was portuguese and not brazilian

Source 1 - The highly respected portuguese newspaper Diário de Noticias wrote in 2009: Carmen Miranda The most famouse portuguese (...) Carmen never gave up of her portuguese citizenship. Link: http://dn.sapo.pt/gente/perfis/interior.aspx?content_id=1141949
Source 2 - The public portuguese television, RTP, made news about Carmen recently in 2009, and we can watch it and read it on RTP official website: http://tv1.rtp.pt/noticias/?article=189581&headline=20&visual=9. On the video and bellow it we can watch and read " Carmen Miranda foi a única portuguesa a conquistar Hollywood" that means "Carmen Miranda was the only portuguese that conquered Hollywood.
Source 3 - The book "Frommer's Portugal" says on page 24 "She was called The Brazilian Bombshell. (...) Ah but there is a secret here: The great Carmen Miranda the star of all these hollywood musicals in the 1940's and 50's was actually portuguese. http://books.google.pt/books?id=9ClK_ywE8wYC&q=carmen+miranda+portuguese&dq=carmen+miranda+portuguese&lr=&cd=15
Source 4 - In the brazilian newspaper called Brasileiros, we can very cleary read in several parts of the article that Carmen Miranda did not had brazilian nationality/citizenship, for example in the first sentence "Hoje, 9 de fevereiro de 2009, é celebrado o centenário de uma artista que, apesar de não ter nacionalidade brasileira ..." that means "Today, 9 of February 2009 it is celebrated the 100 years (if she was still living) of and artist that did not had brazilian citizenship ..." http://www.revistabrasileiros.com.br/secoes/o-lado-b-da-noticia/noticias/391/
Source 5 - The online brazilian news journal JusBrasil makes a citation of the Goverment of the State of Rio de Janeiro, http://www.jusbrasil.com.br/politica/1552153/centenario-carmen-miranda-o-que-e-que-a-portuguesa-tem . We can read amongst other things "Centenário Carmen Miranda: O que é que a portuguesa tem?" that means "100 years of Carmen Miranda: What does the portuguese has?"
Source 6 - The brazilian online paper Folha Online refered to Carmen as portuguese. We can read " Carmen Miranda "Chica Chica Boom Chic" (...) imortalizada pela cantora e atriz portuguesa, que morreu em 1955." that means "Carmen Miranda "chica chica boom chic" song immortalized by the portuguese singer and actress that died in 1955" http://www1.folha.uol.com.br/folha/ilustrada/ult90u642712.shtml and in another news article they say the samethings: http://www1.folha.uol.com.br/folha/ilustrada/ult90u60906.shtml .
Source 7 - In the book "O it verde e amarelo de Carmen Miranda" we can read many interesting facts, about what brazilians and brazilian media wrote about Carmen Miranda ( link: http://books.google.pt/books?id=hoy5GzKMRMgC&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_navlinks_s#v=onepage&q=&f=false ). On page 198, The brazilian newspaper Folha da Noite wrote in 30/01/1940 : Então é assim que o Brasil brilha nos Estados Unidos: com uma portuguesa cantando sambas negroides de mau estilo. That means So its like this that Brazil shine in the United States: with a PORTUGUESE singing black sambas of bad kind. The also Brazilian megazine O Cruzeiro wrote in 30/03/1946 about one of her cinema roles: (...) mas isso não é desculpa para os papeis que ela (carmen) representa, porque neste caso sendo ela portuguesa também não poderia ser uma sambista brasileira. That means (...) but that isn't an excuse for the cinema papers she (carmen) represents, because in that case she being portuguese she couldn't be a brazilian samba dancer. The book writer Tânia da Costa Garcia, refers to Carmen Miranda as portuguese and not brazilian: "Era portuguesa, mas identificava-se com a canção popular urbana e o seu ambiente malandro (referencia ao brasil). She was portuguese but she identified herself with the urban popular songs and the environment (refering to brazil)page 61.

FACT 3: She lived most of her life in the United States of America were she reached stardum and notability and where she also eventually died. So if reliable sources say she had portuguese citizenship and that she was indeed portuguese and also that she never adquired any other citizenship i still wonder why people keep defending the expression "portuguese-born brazilian" an invented expression that doesn't even exist and of course doesn't reflect the true biography of this artist as we can easily verify. Tacv (talk) 02:12, 3 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It is not up to you to decide what the debate is about. As has already been pointed out, one can be called Brazilian without being a citizen. Also, she was called "The Brazilian Bombshell", not the Portugese Bombshell, not the American Bombshell. She was considered Brazilian by the preponderence of sources. Meanwhile, maybe you could explain how she could get (or why she even needed) a Brazilian passport, since she supposedly already had a Portugese passport. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 02:18, 3 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You are wrong, it was up to me to define what the topic of this discussion is about since it was me that asked for this moderation board and you can easily read above this topic that these discussion is regarding her citizenship and not to what country she identified more or less. Now about the other things you said: 1 - The fact she identified herself with brazil doesn't make her a brazilian nor doesn't make her less portuguese. Did she ever said she didnt identified herself with Portugal? If a french person identified itself with the mexican culture does it make that person mexican? or less french? of course not. 2 - The fact she asked a passport in 1948 and that it was refused by the brazilian government is a clear sign she wasn't brazilian, cause it can't be refused to a citizen. They inventually did give her one 2 years before she died, but we don't know what kind of passport they gave her, since there are many types of passports and you don't even need to be a citizen to receive one. So a single source that refers to a passport isnt proof she was a brazilian citizen. Does that source referes to her suposed "brazilian citizenship"? nop 3 - From all the sources i just showed im very surprise you still wrote that statement. Im not going to repeat myself and i will wait for the mediator comments. Since in face of reliable sources and facts you keep dismissing them and go with personal views and opinions. Tacv (talk) 02:36, 3 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Opinoso clearly provided a citation where Miranda herself claimed she was Brazilian, so I'm not understanding how "she has not strongly identified herself as Brazilian". She said that to call her Portuguese was "ridiculous". It doesn't get much clearer than that. In any case, I looked for references and found several that I think may be helpful. The first source I found states that Miranda's distant relatives in Portugal tried to claim that she was Portuguese but her sister insisted that Miranda was "thoroughly Brazilian". Another source I found supports that assertion stating that Miranda publicly identified herself as "Brazilian". There's also this source that identifies Miranda as "a Brazilian [who] spoke Portuguese". I also found a few sources that support the current wording in the lede including this source and this source. Before there's any questions, I checked each source and each one appears to reliable.
As for her passport, I already provided a citation on the article talk page that supported the fact that she had two different passports which, ironically, probably supports the fact that she was a citizen of Brazil. Just to reiterate, it seems she requested a Brazilian passport in 1948 and was eventually granted one in 1953. As far as I know, one has to be a citizen of a country to get a passport from said country. If anyone knows something different, please enlighten me. Pinkadelica♣ 03:12, 3 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
For once and for all, No one here is saying she didn't identified herself with Brazil. Again, the fact she identified herself with brazil and all that doesn't give her a brazilian citizenship, so the sources you presented don't prove nothing. Also again, the source you presented about a passport that was denied to her and only years after actually 2 years before she died was granted we don't know what kind of passport it was. You can simple go to wikipedia article about passports and you will learn that there are many genres of passports and some are issued to foreigner citizens like the example of "Diplomatic passport": " In exceptional circumstances, a diplomatic passport is given to a foreign citizen with no passport of his own, such as an exiled VIP who lives, by invitation, in a foreign country." (suprisingly the case of Carmen Miranda) or "Certificate of identity": "A certificate of identity, sometimes called an alien's passport, is a travel document issued by states to foreign nationals who are, for whatever reason, unable to obtain a passport from their state of nationality." (a possible case in Carmen Miranda case), etc ... The source you presented speaked about her needing a passport to make shows in europe, so it could easily be the case of an emergency passport or something like that. So you cant afirm and state she was a brazilian citizen just because 2 years of her dead she received a passport. That source doesn't speak about her being a brazilian citizen. And besides i showed many sources speaking about her citizenship, that state she was a portuguese citizen and that she preserved it till the end of her life and that she never adquired a brazilian one. Tacv (talk) 03:40, 3 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The article already covers that. Your dispute is about one thing only, and that's the phrase "Portugese-born Brazilian", which is a demonstrably valid description. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 03:49, 3 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
If it is a "demonstrably valid description" why haven't you or other editor prove that with reliable sources? And why do the ones that exist state the oposite? You guys going against reliable sources and also don't presenting valid arguments and sources but still defend your groud are a clear sign that you are stubborn and also a clear sign that this informal mediation will lead us to nowhere, cause you can't acept that you are wrong in face of reliable sources. So i will have to probably move to a formal mediation. Tacv (talk) 04:04, 3 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It's been demonstrated over and over. You, meanwhile, have provided a smidgen of sources of a few people trying to claim her for Portugal (as with yourself), and NONE in which she herself identifies with Portugal. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 04:16, 3 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm pretty sure this is formal mediation, but whatever. Anyhow, I agree with BB. Opinioso provided a very good source that supports the current wording. I also provided various sources to support the current wording along with other sources that support that Miranda identified herself as a Brazilian. To be very blunt Tacv, I ain't about to go searching for sources to disprove various hypothetical situations you think up every time a source that goes against whatever wording you want instituted is presented. Start finding some reliable sources that explicitly support your conjecture or don't bring it to the table. It would also be nice if you'd bring it down a notch or two. This isn't a battleground so chill. Pinkadelica♣ 05:16, 3 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Pinkadelica. I think we are all adults to know that im not creating a battleground. I don't understand why do you still asked me on you last comment to present sources that defend what im saying since i did that already, i presented 7 reliable surces that cleary refer to Carmen Miranda citizenship, please do not discard them just because they go against whats your opinion, they are real, verifiable and reliable and thats all that it takes. The sources you, Opinoso and BB presented do not refer to her citizenship and so does not support the expression "portuguese-born brazilian". I already stated more than 1000 times that no one is saying Carmen did not identified with Brazil, that isn't even the topic here being discussed, so please understand that the fact you present sources stating she identified with brazil does not show or support that she was a brazilian citizen. Since the intro of wikipedia should only refered to a person citizenship and since the sources regarding this artist citizenship all state she was only a portuguese citizen and not a brazilian one, then the expression "portuguese-born brazilian" is false and against wiki rules. I think this is very clear and i also think we all are good faith people to understand and support wikipedia rules. If we do not respect the rules then we should not even be editors. I would also like to once again make it clear that i with good faith and wanting to end this dipute followed all wikipedia rules and ways to end this dispute. I also made very clear that i can make a compromise to what i defend and agree with "portuguese-brazilian". You in the other hand did not presented reliable sources regarding her citizenship (brazilian one), did not made any compromise to agree with other than what you defend, continuosly keep discarting the sources i provide and keep defending your view based only in opinions and not in sources. I will wait for the moderator comments and lets see what he has to say. I hope we can end this dispute as adults and good faith people i belive we are. Tacv (talk) 14:52, 3 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, you are treating this like a battleground and it's irritating and tiresome. You do keep repeating yourself which should tell you that your arguments aren't convincing and another tact should be used. Instead, you keep spouting off about some "Wikipedia rules" that everyone but innocent ol' you is ignoring. As User:Wildhartlivie pointed out above, you're conveniently failing ignoring the fact that WP:MOSBIO also states "Nationality & ethnicity – In the normal case this will mean the country of which the person is a citizen or national, or was a citizen (or national) when the person became notable. Additionally, WP:MOSBIO is a guideline and NOT a rule so no one is actually breaking a damn thing so please, drop that nonsense once and for all. Various third party reliable sources have been presented to support the current wording which, if it's good enough for a book published by a legit publishing house, it is certainly good enough for a Wikipedia article. There's even a source that states Miranda's Portuguese relatives attempted to claim her as a citizen but her sister thoroughly disagreed with that. There are other sources with similar claims that again, you're conveniently ignoring. No matter what sources are presented, that's simply not going to be enough because you're not interested in entertaining any thought expect the one you have. In other words, this is the same old game yet again. Pinkadelica♣ 19:55, 3 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It really comes down to just this one point: Tavc is claiming that to label someone "Brazilian" they have to be a Brazilian citizen. And the rest of us are saying that he's got that wrong. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 20:09, 3 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
To the above user: You are wrong, the brazilian constitution says that a brazilian is a person that rspects one of the following: 1- Have born in Brazil; 2 -Have born to a brazilian parent or 3 - A person that requested and have a brazilian citizenship. Carmen Miranda do not presents none of this 3 situtations, so stop. Your argument is again empty. Tacv (talk) 20:32, 3 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You are applying your personal interpretation of the Brazilian constitution, and that's called "original research" or "syngthesis". You can't argue that yourself. You would need to find an independent source that asserts that point. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:00, 3 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
One can simple go to wikipedia and look the article "brazilian people" under the topic "who is a brazilian" or you can simple go and read the brazilian constitution that is posted online. Heres one http://www.v-brazil.com/government/laws/constitution.html. Since she have born in Portugal, and have born to portuguese parents, the only way to call her a brazilian you will have to prove with reliable sources tht she is a brazilian citizen, a thing that is already very clear she wasn't. I rest my case and will not comment before the mediator of this discussion enters in the discussion. Tacv (talk) 21:08, 3 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Wikis are not valid sources, and "reading the constitution" to try to prove a point is also invalid. Furthermore, the Brazilian government does not own the rights to the way the English word "Brazilian" is used in English. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:12, 3 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Article 12 my dear. And what you said about the english word is in the minimal very comical. I rest my case. Tacv (talk) 21:14, 3 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You need to retract the "liar" stuff and also the "my dear" garbage, ASAP. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:16, 3 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Pinkadelica you did not present reliable sources that state she is "portuguese-born brazilian" nor that she is a brazilian citizen so stop lying. Also there is many reliable sources that she was a portuguese citizen and not a brazilian one and you keep discarting them. If you continue to discart the reliable sources presented and keep defending your point only based on your opinion i will have to report you and request an Arbitration, also because you keep attacking me, being agressive in your comments, making acusations, you are being very uncivil. You also show you do not want to resolve this situation. I will give one or two days for the intervention of the mediator of this bord. If he doesn't appear i will also move to a formal mediation. Im feed up of your acusations and lack of civil manners and also im feed up you not presenting reliable sources that show she is a brazilian citizen or that she was "portuguese-born brazilian" (whatever that expression means) and discart the ones that were presented. Tacv (talk) 20:32, 3 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Stop calling people liars unless you want to get blocked. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:00, 3 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]


Tacv, you are very close to becoming blocked. Stop the bolding, underlining, and general anger.

We can not use primary documents (e.g., the Brazilian constitution) to override a consensus. Just because it's there does not mean that there isn't a consensus on how an article should be written (you were also linked to WP:MOSBIO, so you know there's some inertia that way, too). Now, it may mean the broad consensus is wrong, but a consensus is, after all, a consensus. So you gotta change the consensus. Most people try their best to be pleasant, since we're trying to convince one another. Changing a consensus happens when enough folks have been convinced. How's that been working out for ya?

See the conundrum we're seeing? You fix these problems, we can move on. You try and change this consensus the good-old fashioned way: being nice, making concessions, and general respect all around. Xavexgoem (talk) 09:15, 4 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

To the above user: I can use bolding and underlining as i want. There isn't any policy in wikipedia that forbids the use of it, they are used for emphasis and besides this is a talk page not an article. I also don't understand why do you say to me to stop the anger ... Its actually the other way around. I never showed anger, i've been civil. Only if you consider the defense of my views an attack of its own. As i stated above and many times im feed up of being attacked and now other editor cames from nowhere and also attacks me? thats funny and i had enough already. Probably an Arbitration is the correct way to go now, cause this all discussion as been centered in attacking me and not in the resolution of this issue. Making attacks to me will not make me quit or prove you point. You also speak about changing the consensus, well again i say this issue was never a consensus and the actual wording lacks sources. The editors have been not acepting wikipedia policy by defending their views on personal opinions and not on reliable sources. This dispute as became now centered in that. Its obviouse from the sources presented that the actual expression "portuguese-born brazilian" is incorrect, but some editors still defend it by presenting just opinions, and that is a violation of wikipedia. You are also wrong to say primary sources shouldn't be use. In Wikipedia:Primary Secondary and Tertiary Sources it says and i quote primary sources may also be used to report factual material provided the contributing editor states the fact in a manner that does not present an interpretation of the fact. It also says Facts: The most authoritative source for a fact is a primary source, but the most convenient source may be secondary or tertiary source. and Primary sources may also be used as references for specific uncontroversial facts that require no interpretation, such as names and dates.. So yes the Brazilian Constitution can be used, after all this source is not my main source to prove my point it was only used to show what's a brazilian (a name not open to interpretation). I also presented many reliable secondary sources a few comments above that shows that what i defend in this discussion forum is supported, in the other hand other editors did not do the same, so unsourced material is a clear violation of wikipedia policies and Wikipedia:Verifiability. So if the above editor wants to help this discussion please do not use agressive comments nor make unecessary threats of blocking. If you really want to help please keep to the topic and support the point you think is valid with sources. I was expecting more support from the wikipedia community, if reliable sources are presented that supports a point and no reliable sources are presented to support the oposite point i thought it was easy to understand what point should be used in an article. But i guess other roles take part in this. Tacv (talk) 15:01, 4 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You are mistaken about the use of the term "Brazilian". And calling people liars is not civil. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 16:05, 4 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict) No sources to support the current wording, eh? I provide two (Example 1 and Example 2) and as far as I can tell, there's one cited in the article right this very minute. Do you have a concrete reason why those sources "incorrect"? Is it because they don't jive with what you want to put in the article? If so, that's certainly not a valid reason to dismiss what appears to be reliable sources. That's actually the problem here, Tacv. You're simply ignoring what you don't like and claiming the rest of us are basing our position on the matter on personal opinion. I'm a German-born American who couldn't care less about Carmen Miranda. I also don't care about Portugal or Brazil, so if one more person is or isn't associated with either country, I couldn't care less. If you have actual evidence that one of us is biased and not just not disagreeing with you (which is perfectly allowed), take your concerns to neutral point of view noticeboard. If you don't have any evidence, quite riding that "personal opinion" horse already. A few of us involved have been here for awhile and if there were actual problems with our ability to edit neutrally, we'd have been banned long ago.
To be absolutely frank, my patience with this matter is nearly exhausted. This is basically the same discussion that took place on the article talk page twice last year and again, it's going nowhere. The only difference this go round is there are no anonymous IP users popping up to support your preferred wording. You've been told that your interpretation of guidelines (and now policy) is wrong, but you continue to post the same thing over and over again as if you're going to convince one of us that your interpretation is correct. Underlining and bolding your text doesn't drive your point home like you think it does. As you've been told (by an admin no less), it's considered rude and is rather annoying. There really doesn't have to be a written policy to tell you that, it's common sense. You can threaten with arbitration all you like, but it's not going to have the effect that you desire. It's certainly not going to scare me into agreeing with you because you think I'm scared of the process. If you want to exhaust a whole new set of people's patience with your circular arguments and go-nowhere reasoning, have at it. Pinkadelica♣ 16:23, 4 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Pinkadelica, as i already said your sources do not refer to citizenship. You lack reliable sources that refer that Carmen Miranda is a Brazilian. As the brazilian constitution says, to be a brazilian you have to have born in brazil soil (Carmen have born in Portugal), or born to at least one brazilian parent (Carmen have born to both portuguese parents) or have requested and have a brazilian citizenship (as i posted above many secondary sources that state she did not have a brazilian citizenship and only had a portuguese one till the day she died). So its very clear she wasn't a brazilian. So maintaining the expression "portuguese-born brazilian" is incorrect. Its also incorrect if you use the WP:MOSBIO rule. And of course it is also incorrect since that expression itself doesn't exist. A person or is a brazilian, or is portuguese or is portuguese-brazilian. As you can see there are many reason, that support what i defend. I also made it very clear that i can acept the expression "portuguese brazilian" if that helps to end this endless dispute that im also very tired of. Also your endless acusations (like i creat many IP adress, but there are many others you and BB said) are very agressive, dangerouse and distract from what is the issue where being discussed. That kind of acusations are agressive, unsuported and do not respect wikipedia policy. Acusations like that do not help the discussion nor do they prove your point. And besides if you really belive i did all that i recomend you to use the proper ways in wikipedia to make such acusations. This page is not for that. It probably goes for your surprise but im portuguese-brazilian myself, not by birth but because my wife is brazilian. My view on this topic doesn't have any political view what so ever. My view is suported by reliable sources. You isn't. The User:Xavexgoem comment as i already stated above was wrong in his comment. Asking me to not use bold or underlining to make emphasy of a sentence and i can be blocked by that is disrespectfull, not proper and a clear sign of the way i've been treated here. I also never was agressive, you in the other hand like User:Baseball Bugs made very seriouse acusations to me (e.g. "he's forum-shopping here to try to get his way with the article" or that i creat many IP adress to go with my view). You and other editors keep adressing the same arguments to which i reply with the same arguments that prove your statements are wrong. You keep saying Carmen is brazilian showing no sources, and so its normal that i respond with sources that state she isn't. The bottom line is that you do not adress or recognise the reliable sources i present and keep showing other sources that do not refer to her citizenship. So you not acepting reliable sources that state she isn't brazilian is the center of the discussion. Doing so as i already stated in other comments you are not complying with the rules you agreed in this page nor with wikipedia rules. Thats one of the reasons i said only an Arbitration will help in this case, since your not respecting the reliable sources.Tacv (talk) 17:05, 4 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This whole thing is an exercise in futility and quite possibly the biggest waste of time I've spent on the internet since....I don't even know when. It's apparent that no matter what sources are presented, they're not going to be good enough. Tacv, take this to arbiration if you're so inclined. I'm not going to listen to (and moronically respond to) the same poorly written responses time and again. Pinkadelica♣
As I said a couple of months ago when this came up the previous time, it's an endless loop. Tacv asks a question, gets the answer, and asks the same question again. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 18:19, 4 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well, he's gone. You guys got a 3 week window to sort things out. Xavexgoem (talk) 18:29, 4 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Removing the person that has strong opinions as regards this is not helpful at all. Off2riorob (talk) 23:27, 4 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

In regard to the argument made by Tacv, the issue of nationality has nothing whatsoever to do with citizenship, but with residence and identification. A person who is raised from age 1 in a country, and from which she became notable as a Brazilian entertainer completely defines what is meant by nationality. This meets the definition as provided in MOS:BIO. Failing to surrender citizenship in a country with which she has no personal ties does not make her Portuguese. Especially when she has called herself Brazilian. This argument of nationality ties falls flat on its face. Wildhartlivie (talk) 22:18, 7 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

arbitrary break 1

Just letting you know that i've been watching this discussion, to see how you interact and address some of the problems. Now, I see that civility is a problem on both sides (though I figured it would be when I first saw the list of participants). Now that Tacv has been blocked for three weeks, we can hopefully examine the sources in a neutral manner. I've seen enough that the opening statements I usually ask for aren't required, so let's just skip to the part where I ask for all the sources providing evidence that she was Brazilian. The WordsmithCommunicate 19:00, 4 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Those of us who have been dealing with Tacv and his various IPs for the last six to eight months are pretty well fed up with his game, so a bit of frustration is to be expected. Being called a liar repeatedly tends to do that to a person. Anyway, the source Opinioso presented supports the assertion that Miranda (and at least one family member) considered herself to be Brazilian. Evidently she retained her Portuguese citizenship (as she had a passport from that country), but she also publicly identified herself as Brazilian. The fact that she spent the majority of her life and rose to fame in Brazil supports her being labeled as a Brazilian. In most of the sources I found, she's either described as a Brazilian or a "Portuguese-born Brazilian" (Source 1, Source 2 and Source 3. Pinkadelica♣ 21:24, 4 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
She was known in America as the "Brazilian Bombshell", which is also the title of her biography. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:30, 4 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
While the nickname really isn't enough to identify her as Brazilian, the sources Pinkadelica has given do provide some compelling evidence. So, identifying her only as Portuguese isn't really an option given those sources. What we're left with is a choice between Brazilian (which IMO would be equally incorrect), Portuguese-Brazilian (which Tacv appears to agree with) or Portuguese-born Brazilian. Since Tacv has been blocked for three weeks, we'll continue to discuss the issue and assume we know where he stands. Now, is there anything wrong with his proposed compromise? Or, is there anything wrong with Portuguese-born Brazilian? Since this is informal mediation, and not arbitration, its up to the parties here to form a consensus. The WordsmithCommunicate 22:33, 4 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I think Miranda's clear identification as Brazilian is what really matters here. But we cannot forget the fact that she was born in Portugal and retained her Portuguese citizenship. Then, "Portuguese-born Brazilian" looks fine to me. To claim Miranda only as "Portuguese" is ridiculous, according to Miranda herself. Opinoso (talk) 23:05, 4 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
A Portuguese born Brazilian is ridiculous and false, it is also false to claim that she strongly identifies as Brazilian, she did not. The simple truth is the she was Portuguese, totally, all her ancestors were Portuguese, her parents moved her to Brazil and she was an imigrant there, she lived in America for a long period and married there, she died there, the attempt to claim her as a pure Brazilian person is in my opinion is totally false and not needed in any way, why reject her inheritance? No one is wanting to claim her as Portuguese, the middle ground is Portuguese Brazilian, anyway, whatever, all this wikipedia claiming is irrelevant. All her ancestors were Pure Portuguese, in England we allow people the respect that their inheritance deserves, even if they take English citizenship we still allow them the respect to call them Moroccan English. Off2riorob (talk) 23:24, 4 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It has already been demonstrated that she DID identify as Brazilian. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 00:37, 5 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with you to a certain extent. Calling her solely Portuguese or solely Brazilian would both be, IMO, incorrect. What we're left with is a choice between the two compromises. I think either would be acceptable, and whatever the parties here decide will be what is used in the article. The WordsmithCommunicate 00:05, 5 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"Portugese-Brazilian" is not appropriate, because it's undue weight. It implies she was identified equally with Portugal and Brazil, which is not anywhere close to being accurate. "Portugese-born Brazilian" is accurate. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 00:39, 5 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with Basebug Bugs completely. She left the country of Portugal at the age of 1 and, as far as I know, never returned. She retained her citizenship for whatever reason, but identified herself as a Brazilian. Pinkadelica♣ 01:41, 5 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I also agree. Her identification as Brazilian is what matters. Opinoso (talk) 01:50, 5 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
In response to Off2robrio's comment, no one here is attempting to "reject her inheritance" or dismiss any of her heritage. She certainly is identified with Portugal and the article goes into that. It could certainly be expanded a bit, but as I stated above she wasn't in the country for years on end. Sources have most certainly been provided that state Miranda herself identified as a Brazilian. I've posted those at least twice. Most sources I found describe Miranda as a "Portugese-born Brazilian". If that wording is supported by third party reliable sources, I think that's certainly good enough for the lede of a Wikipedia article. Pinkadelica♣ 01:52, 5 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Response to Mediator about sources presented by User:Pinkadelica

One of the sources presented by Pinkadelica refers to Carmen as “Portuguese-born Brazilian-raised” is that the expression suggested now?
If one is going to look only to the names/expressions authors use to refer to this artist and not the reliable sources that confirm what was indeed her situation (like citizenship and so on), then we have authors that refer to this artist as Portuguese, as Brazilian, as Portuguese-Brazilian, as Portuguese-born Brazilian-raised and as Portuguese-born Brazilian. So what expressions should be given preference, since all are found in the internet?! This cleary show a single source that uses only a name to address to Carmen is not enough. Cause if that was the case then calling her simple Portuguese or simple Brazilian was also correct since there are sources that address to her like that. The thing is that more evidences are needed (complementary sources) to state this artist is indeed a Brazilian. I showed complementary sources that clear this situation up and proved her portuguese status and proved she was not a brazilian. They were not adressed till now, so i do not know if you saw them.

Reasons i do not agree with the expression “Portuguese-born Brazilian”

Fact – Carmen Miranda was Portuguese by blood
Fact – Carmen Miranda family was all Portuguese
Fact – Carmen Miranda born in Portugal
Fact – Carmen Miranda was a Portuguese citizen not a Brazilian citizen
Fact – Carmen Miranda didn’t return to Brazil, not even to visit her Portuguese family there for more than 14 years.
This Facts make Carmen Miranda a Portuguese, and so a foreigner and immigrant in Brazil. Every time she needed some papers like a birth certificate or a passport or if she needed any protection abroad she had to go to a Portuguese embassy. She didn’t had the rights of a Brazilian and she couldn’t even vote in the president. So “Portuguese-born Brazilian” suggestion is completely unacceptable because its incorrect to give more emphasis to her being a Brazilian (a thing that she wasn’t) only based on her identification with Brazil, than the emphasis given to the fact that she was Portuguese by blood, family, birth and citizenship. Also the expression “Portuguese-born Brazilian” does not exist it’s a pure invention and is only used as an effort to connect this artist more to a country than to another. One is Portuguese, or Brazilian or Portuguese-Brazilian, period. Bottom line is that this artist is a pure Portuguese person; making discredit to this is a disrespect to her inheritance and a false statement. If emphasis to her supposed “brazilianess” is wanted then the expression “Portuguese-Brazilian” already embodies that. There is no sense in giving more emphasis to the name Brazilian than to the name Portuguese.

Suggestion on Compromise and reaching an agreement

Since Carmen Miranda arose to fame connected to Brazilian music I can agree with the expression “Portuguese-Brazilian” but using the expression “Portuguese-born Brazilian” is unacceptable. Post this I again ask if all parties agree with the compromise suggested by me on “Portuguese Brazilian” or if they are willing to make any compromise (since they haven’t done it till now) or some kind of suggestion to resolve this situation.

Tacv (talk) 01:44, 6 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Undue weight. "Portugese-Brazilian" gives too much emphasis to Portugal. Sources predominently identify her as Brazilian. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 02:26, 6 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]


I found other statements from Carmen Miranda about the matter:[3]

In Portuguese:

"Nasci em Portugal, mas me criei no Brasil e, portanto, considero-me brasileira. O local do nascimento não importa, nem sequer o sangue. O que importa é o que os americanos chamam de "environment", a influência do país e dos costumes em que vivemos, se bem que sempre existe um grau de gratidão e fidelidade aos pais que nos geraram. Da minha parte, sou mais carioca, mais sambista de favela, mais carnavalesca do que cantora de fados. O sangue tem uma certa importância, mas só no temperamento, não na maneira de sentir as coisas."

In English:

"I was born in Portugal, but I grew up in Brazil and therefore I consider myself Brazilian. The place of birth does not matter, not even the blood. What matters is what the Americans call" environment ", the influence of the country and of customs in which we live, although there is always a degree of gratitude and loyalty to parents that generated us. From my part, I'm from Rio, a samba singer from a slum, more a carnival singer than a fado singer. The blood has a certain importance but only in temperament, not in the way of feeling things."

I think what Miranda said ends this discussion. People are always talking about her "pure Portuguese blood" (what is a pure blood?) or the fact that she was born in Portugal. Miranda gave no importance to that. She said that she was born in Portugal, but was a Brazilian, then she defined herself as a "Portuguese-born Brazilian". I still think she should be denominated only as "Brazilian", but since she retained her Portuguese citizenship (a piace of paper that usually does not have any importance to a person's life) then the "Portuguese-born Brazilian" looks fine. I am Brazilian because I feel Brazilian, not because a piace of paper tells me that my nationality is Brazilian. The same goes for Miranda. She was as Brazilian as any other person who feels at home here. Opinoso (talk) 02:35, 6 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Agree with both Basebug Bugs and Opinoso. The subject stated at various times (or at least documented in various sources) that she considered herself Brazilian. That coupled with the fact the other sources label her as "Portuguese-born Brazilian" as well leads me to believe that is the correct wording. Pinkadelica♣ 03:27, 6 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
First no one is speaking about pure blood, im not a nazi. The source you presented is what a blogue? Since it is a text about fashion and it says and i quote "I will like to register two citations made by Carmen Miranda that i found in the official website". They give the link of the suposed official website on the bottom of the page where they took the expressions and when you click in it it says "Site Coming Soon" so the website is not even "online" yet. Can the source be considered reliable? I don't think so. Wikipedia:Verifiability cleary states what are reliable sources or not. You concluding she is Brazilian because she identified herself with Brazil is an interpretation you do Wikipedia does not publish original research or original thought(see Wikipedia:No original research. Also Wikipedia is not used as confirmation on something unsourced. Wikipedia:Fringe theories say it is important that Wikipedia itself does not become the validating source for non-significant subjects. Other well-known, reliable, and verifiable sources that discuss an idea are required so that Wikipedia does not become the primary source for fringe theories. I found many reliable sources that state she was Portuguese and not Brazilian, but i also found 2 biographies of this artist. One is from higly respected brazilian Ruy Castro that referes to Carmen as Portuguese-Brazilian intitle "Carmen - the life of Carmen Miranda the most famouse portuguese-brazilian from the XX century", link:http://www.amazon.com/Carmen-Miranda-Luso-Brasileira-Famosa-S%C3%A9culo/dp/9896270236, from what i found this biography is considered the most complete to date and was released in 2009 the other one is from Brazilian Tânica da Costa Garcia "O it verde e amarelo de Carmen Miranda" that referes to Carmen as Portuguese link: http://books.google.pt/books?id=hoy5GzKMRMgC&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_navlinks_s#v=onepage&q=&f=false).
One may say on the article that she identified herself with Brazil (what the main article already states) but cannot say the artist was not portuguese or was portuguese-born brazilian that is almost the samething as to say she wasnt really portuguese. Either you like it or not she was a portuguese citizen and not a brazilian one. She can only be Portuguese, Brazilian or Portuguese-Brazilian. Any other expressions are invented ones. Again the way wikipedia referes to her on the intro of the article cannot be based on her identification to Brazil. Nor it can be based on your interpretation of the sources. Since she wasn't brazilian, like it or not, giving the same emphasis to her "brazilianess" as the one given to her truth (portuguese) is aceptable. Given more emphasis to what she wasn't is using wikipedia as a confirmation on samething that is not true (Fringe Theories)and is not supported with sources. All what i stated on my last comment continues true. Tacv (talk) 03:53, 6 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Non-binding straw poll

Alright, I think we've seen all the arguments and sources we're going to, so I think its time to see where everyone stands. So, i'm conducting a straw poll. Please sign in the usual manner next to all of the solutions you would accept. Keep in mind that this is not a majority decision, and the results are not binding. Also note that I will not be !voting. The WordsmithCommunicate 03:33, 6 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Portuguese

Portuguese-Brazilian

Portuguese-born Brazilian

Brazilian

Comment

This mediation cleary didn't lead us to a mutual agreement. Since I made a compromise, after all mediation is really that, and other parties haven’t made one yet, i ask what compromise or suggestion they are willing to make. If none, then I can assume that even though mediation was accepted by them, they weren’t really willing to mediate. If that’s the case, i ask the mediator what’s the next step.Tacv (talk) 14:24, 7 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Portugese-Brazilian is not a "compromise", it's what you wanted. And it's undue weight toward the Portugese, and is not appropriate. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 16:06, 7 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I think Tarc wanted Portuguese actually if you look back, he did indeed move from that position to Portuguese Brazilian in an attempt to compromise. I don't think you can apply undue weight to this alteration, it is hardly a weight issue, imo, I think it is a bit much adding the born between the two words and someone came along and added Australian to the lede of Patricia Hewitt yesterday, she was in the lede as British, but in the first section you can read she was born to British parents in Australia, so she has now become in the lede, an Australian born brish person, this is worthy of comparison for the reason of compromise, she is British moved to Britain soon after birth but the birth in Australia was being blanked out so why not Australian born British. This is a compromise and I see in this case that Portuguese Brazilian is a good compromise. Off2riorob (talk) 16:18, 7 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Or maybe one of the IP's wanted it. Yes, "Portugese" would be absurd. But the entire situation is explained in the article. The lead is supposed to summarize. And "Portugese-born Brazilian" explains it better than "Portugese-Brazilian". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 16:41, 7 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
If you want some "worthy" comparisons, how about Nicole Kidman, Naomi Watts, or Sienna Miller. All of those subjects were born in a different country, left a young age and associate themselves with the country they were raised in. WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS can go both ways which is why it's not good argument and should be avoided. Pinkadelica♣ 19:35, 7 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Conclusions[edit]

After conducting the nonbinding poll, i'm not seeing consensus to overturn the result of the RFC. The previous one was 5 to 1 in favour of the current version, plus a couple of IP socks of Tacv (don't argue, it looks like a duck and it quacks like a duck). The current mediation appears to be 3-2, which isn't enough to overturn. This is also where all of the parties started out. So, I think i'm correct in assuming that none of you are young to be changing your position, yes? Does anyone have any reason I shouldn't close this case, with the result of affirming the existing consensus? The WordsmithCommunicate 16:46, 7 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Accepted. Off2riorob (talk) 16:50, 7 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Wait are you also accusing me on creating different IPs to vote? Did i got that clear? I mean i was accused of that 100 times by the users in this discussion (a thing I asked your attention and the attention of administrators in the beginning of this discussion) and now the mediator also accusing me of the same? That clear constitutes a continuous personal attack. Wikipedia:No personal attacks#What is considered to be a personal attack?. Serious accusations need hard evidence and its not your place as a mediator to accuse me on something like that. There are ways in Wikipedia that one may take to discover If that is true or false, and without proof of that and you stating something like that constitutes a clear Personal Attack. If you think I create different IPs use the correct place Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations do not accuse me of something from nowhere. I don’t know why all of you decided to make me a target. I’ll have to report this in administrators’ board. Tacv (talk) 18:56, 7 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thus continuing the pattern of forum-shopping when he can't get his way. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 19:02, 7 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I should point out that as of the moment Tacv has NOT taken this to ANI. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 20:16, 7 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
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