Ya Kun Kaya Toast

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Fellow Wikipedians, I humbly present for peer review, this article about a Singaporean food business! Food and Asian culture are poorly covered on Wikipedia, so please support the quest to counter systemic bias by pointing out any and all issues that stand in the way of the goal of GA status! Hope you enjoy reviewing this short, but interesting, article, as much as I enjoyed writing it! Thanks! 谢谢！Terima kasih! நன்றி! J.L.W.S. The Special One (talk) 06:45, 6 July 2012 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Thanks, J.L.W.S. The Special One (talk) 06:45, 6 July 2012 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Couple of quick thoughts-

• With "徐伏钢, "品牌就是对客户的承诺", Lianhe Zaobao, 14 May 2009", a transliteration of the name and a translation of the title wouldn't go amiss. Template:Cite news has parameters for this, if you're interested in using the templates.

  Clarification needed Should the transliteration/translation go immediately after the name/title or go after the date? As in, "徐伏钢 (Xu Fugang), "品牌就是对客户的承诺" ("Our brand identity comes from our commitment to our customers"), Lianhe Zaobao, 14 May 2009", or "徐伏钢, "品牌就是对客户的承诺", Lianhe Zaobao, 14 May 2009" (Xu Fugang, "Our brand identity comes from our commitment to our customers", Lianhe Zaobao, 14 May 2009")? If the latter, the Chinese version could also include the newspaper name in Chinese. --J.L.W.S. The Special One (talk) 12:24, 8 July 2012 (UTC)Reply[reply]

  Take a look how I've done it here. That's how I'd recommend doing it. J Milburn (talk) 14:00, 8 July 2012 (UTC)Reply[reply]

  Done Transliteration and translation added. --J.L.W.S. The Special One (talk) 17:03, 13 July 2012 (UTC)Reply[reply]

• The kaya in "her homemade kaya, which" and the secret recipe in "that only a few of the Loi family know." are dablinks.

  Partially done The link to kaya now points to kaya (jam), but I did not change the link to secret recipe as "a secret recipe is a recipe whose details are held under secrecy" is the intended meaning. --J.L.W.S. The Special One (talk) 12:24, 8 July 2012 (UTC)Reply[reply]

  Then I'd remove the link altogether. Linking to a disambiguation page is not good form. J Milburn (talk) 14:00, 8 July 2012 (UTC)Reply[reply]

  Done Link removed. --J.L.W.S. The Special One (talk) 17:03, 13 July 2012 (UTC)Reply[reply]

• Category:Restaurants established in 1944? Also, if 1944 is correct, creating a new subcategory of Category:Establishments in Singapore by year would be good.

  Partially done Former category added, but latter category not added as "establishments" is too vague and Singapore is too small for that to be useful. --J.L.W.S. The Special One (talk) 12:24, 8 July 2012 (UTC)Reply[reply]

  That's an incredibly well-established category tree. I'll add it myself. J Milburn (talk) 14:00, 8 July 2012 (UTC)Reply[reply]

  Marking already done by you, with thanks. --J.L.W.S. The Special One (talk) 17:03, 13 July 2012 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I've also played with the reference formatting a little- book and newspaper titles should be italicised. Hope this helps. J Milburn (talk) 10:31, 8 July 2012 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Thanks so much for the review and helping with the reference formatting (while not using cite templates, which make page loading slower and make me feel dyslexic)! --J.L.W.S. The Special One (talk) 12:24, 8 July 2012 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I appreciate the invite to review the article, but I don't see any issues with copy-editing, and it appears well-referenced. It could use a photo, which may be difficult to come by unless you live in a host country, otherwise I'm not sure what else can be done to expand the page, unless you want to go more in-depth on the "sustainability" aspect. --Chimino (talk) 12:34, 8 July 2012 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Comments from Casliber

Mainly some content issues, as in some more would be good.....Casliber (talk · contribs) 12:38, 8 July 2012 (UTC)Reply[reply]

• The first sentence of the History section is quite long. I'd split it in half.

  Considering Have to find a better way to express it. --J.L.W.S. The Special One (talk) 07:52, 22 July 2012 (UTC)Reply[reply]

• They launched their first overseas outlet, in Indonesia, two years later, - may as well add where in Indonesia if you can.

  Not done Could not find information. --J.L.W.S. The Special One (talk) 07:52, 22 July 2012 (UTC)Reply[reply]

• ...and the Toastwich was introduced in 2010 - weird having this in the same sentence as Indonesia. Better to maybe find some more franchise start dates to add and shift this bit to another sentence, or move into next section.

  Done a different way, please check I decided to expand that sentence to include more information and awards, such as their incorporation, and mentioned the Toastwich as part of a menu expansion, removing the year as the source is vague. --J.L.W.S. The Special One (talk) 07:52, 22 July 2012 (UTC)Reply[reply]

• More on presentation - presumably they have a set logo?

  Clarification needed What do you mean by a "set logo"? The term is not used here and a Google search returned logos for a company named SET, which is probably not what you meant. If you mean the company logo, then yes, they have one, "Chinese calligraphy of the company name". --J.L.W.S. The Special One (talk) 07:52, 22 July 2012 (UTC)Reply[reply]

• What is a toastwich anyway? Just a sandwich?

  Clarification Yes, but the bread is replaced with Ya Kun-style toast and the fillings are mainly from Asian, rather than Western, cuisine. --J.L.W.S. The Special One (talk) 07:52, 22 July 2012 (UTC)Reply[reply]

• Anything on future expansion plans?

  Done Added that they intend to expand to Malaysia and Brunei, according to a Chinese source. --J.L.W.S. The Special One (talk) 07:52, 22 July 2012 (UTC)Reply[reply]

• Have any stores closed?

  Clarification I used to eat at the Tampines Mall outlet, which no longer exists, but no sources mention this closure, so mentioning it would be original research. --J.L.W.S. The Special One (talk) 07:52, 22 July 2012 (UTC)Reply[reply]

WP Comments

This looks like a pretty good article. A few quick comments:

• "Founded by Loi Ah Koon in 1944, Ya Kun remained a small family-run stall for decades, but have expanded rapidly since his youngest son headed the business in 1999." - to me, "his" is a bit ambiguous here. Maybe use Loi's name? I'm quite unfamiliar with Singarporean names (I apologize!), but what you say Loi Ah Koon would be referred after he's been referred to by his full name? What would his "last name" be?

  Clarification needed Most Chinese names comprise a one-character first name, followed by a one-character or two-character given name. Hence his surname is "Loi" and his name is "Ah Koon". The other two major groups in Singapore, Malays and Indians, use patronymics instead of surnames. "Loi's youngest son" would be ambiguous, since the youngest son also has the surname Loi, so are you proposing that I change "his youngest son" to "Ah Koon's youngest son"? --J.L.W.S. The Special One (talk) 10:25, 14 July 2012 (UTC)Reply[reply]

  I don't think it will be ambiguous because we do not find out Adrin's name until further down the article. It will be clear who "Loi" is. Another question, why wouldn't the son's name be Loi Adrin but instead Adrin Loi? —WP:PENGUIN · ^{[ TALK ]} 17:55, 15 July 2012 (UTC)Reply[reply]

  Done Some Chinese have both a Christian given name (Adrin) and Chinese given name (Boon Sim). They may be called by their Christian given name followed by their Chinese surname (per Western naming conventions) or by their Chinese surname followed by their Chinese given name. Their full name would be their Chinese surname, followed by their Chinese given name, followed by their Christian given name (or, for some, their Christian given name, followed by their Chinese surname, followed by their Chinese name). Changed "Adrin Loi" to his full name, "Loi Boon Sim Adrin", though the rest of the article uses his Christian given name because this is the English Wikipedia. --J.L.W.S. The Special One (talk) 11:54, 22 July 2012 (UTC)Reply[reply]

  Thanks for explaining and that's a good idea. —WP:PENGUIN · ^{[ TALK ]} 00:47, 24 July 2012 (UTC)Reply[reply]

• There is some inconsistency in subject verb agreements. Could you clarify?
  • "Ya Kun Kaya Toast (Chinese: 亚坤) is (singular) a Singapore-based chain of mass-market"
  • "Ya Kun remained a small family-run stall for decades, but have (plural) expanded rapidly since his youngest son headed the business in 1999. They have (plural) over fifty outlets, mostly franchised, across six countries, and are a Singaporean cultural icon, known for their traditional brand identity and conservative corporate culture."
  • "Although Ya Kun do (plural) not publicly disclose their financial figures"
  • Etc.

    Done, please check The "is" in the lead was the exception and has been changed to "are", but could you help check for any stray singular verbs? --J.L.W.S. The Special One (talk) 10:25, 14 July 2012 (UTC)Reply[reply]

    The first sentence in Management looks troubling, though I may stand corrected. ("comprises", "oversees", etc.) —WP:PENGUIN · ^{[ TALK ]} 17:55, 15 July 2012 (UTC)Reply[reply]

    Done Thanks for pointing that out! --J.L.W.S. The Special One (talk) 11:54, 22 July 2012 (UTC)Reply[reply]

• The lead says over 50, but the Products and services section says over 30. Which one?

  Clarification Over 30 outlets in Singapore and over 20 overseas outlets, so over 50 outlets in total. --J.L.W.S. The Special One (talk) 10:25, 14 July 2012 (UTC)Reply[reply]

  Ah okay! —WP:PENGUIN · ^{[ TALK ]} 17:55, 15 July 2012 (UTC)Reply[reply]

• "Their staff are like a "close-knit family" and they have a policy of not firing or retrenching workers; the extensive training they give their personnel has prompted competitors to actively poach Ya Kun employees." - sounds just slighlt opinionated. According to whom?

  Noted, doing According to a book analysing business practices in the kaya toast industry, written by a professor at the National University of Singapore Business School. Several newspaper articles also mention these. However, I do realise that the sentence is too positively worded, perhaps due to its vagueness, and will examine how I can elaborate to focus on facts, thus making the sentence more NPOV. --J.L.W.S. The Special One (talk) 10:25, 14 July 2012 (UTC)Reply[reply]

  Thanks that would be great. —WP:PENGUIN · ^{[ TALK ]} 17:55, 15 July 2012 (UTC)Reply[reply]

  Done with a different approach, please check I decided to shorten the Management section instead. Does it still sound opiniated? I hope not. --J.L.W.S. The Special One (talk) 11:54, 22 July 2012 (UTC)Reply[reply]

  Looks much better now. —WP:PENGUIN · ^{[ TALK ]} 00:47, 24 July 2012 (UTC)Reply[reply]

• References look good. —WP:PENGUIN · ^{[ TALK ]} 18:26, 13 July 2012 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Just so you know, any of these images can be uploaded as free-use. If any of these are indicative of the usual sort of food offered at the chain, they'd make a great lead image. (I can't tell, I don't really know what I'm looking at; the cuisine is a little alien to me.) J Milburn (talk) 09:05, 22 July 2012 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Of that collection of images, only two show their signature kaya toast with soft-boiled eggs and coffee (or teh tarik). I tend to not include images in my GAs, though. --J.L.W.S. The Special One (talk) 11:54, 22 July 2012 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Honestly, I think one of them would be a fantastic addition; that and a photo of the shop front (if we can find one) would help readers (especially readers not already familiar with the brand/cuisine) and add some visual interest to the page. A lot of Wikipedians are of the opinion that articles are next to useless without illustrations. J Milburn (talk) 12:46, 22 July 2012 (UTC)Reply[reply]