I'm sorry for referring to this matter: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Language&oldid=815079757#%22This_is_not_something_[what_/_which_/_that]_I_would_say_[about]_I_am_proud_of%22_(once_more...) Does anybody know how to link that properly? yet again, but I'd like to finally clarify whether the following wording would be grammatical: "This is not something about which I would say [that] I'm proud of it". Akld guy has previously pointed out that the use of "about" implies indirect speech here. Thus, "that" can left out here, right?--Herfrid (talk) 19:40, 21 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- I didn't say anything about indirect speech, but there may well be an indirect speech problem here. As a native speaker of English, I pointed out that the sentence is not grammatical. There are really only two ways to write it: "This is not something about which I would say that I'm proud." The that can be, and usually is, left out in informal spoken English. In written English, and in Wikipedia articles it should be present. The other acceptable version is: "This is not something about which I would say, "I'm proud of it"." That version turns it into a quote. Akld guy (talk) 20:36, 21 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- "This" and "it" are presumably the same thing. Therefore, "it" is not needed. The clunky nature of the sentence is the action verb "say". Replacing that with what would be said would make it better, such as replacing "say" with "claim". The use of "about" and "that" are both spurious. Neither are necessary. With those changes, the sentence becomes: This is not something which I would claim I'm proud of. You are ending with "of", which can drive some pedantic people crazy, but your sentence is correct for normal speech. To completely correct the sentence, you simply reverse the two parts of the sentence to: I would not claim I'm proud of this. 209.149.113.5 (talk) 20:41, 21 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- Alkd guy's point is fully correct and definitive. It was I who said you were combining direct and indirect speech in one pleonastic sentence by repeating the object twice, "this" and "it", as Alkd points out. (You were also conflating "to say" and "to say about" by implication. This is getting to the point where repeating the same question is disruptive. If you still can't grok the underlying problem you should probably just accept it from us on authority at this point. μηδείς (talk) 03:39, 22 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- @Medeis: "It was I who..." – Wouldn't one have to say "it was me who..."? "It was I who said you were combining direct and indirect speech in one pleonastic sentence" – Well, when I write "... about which I would say that I'm proud of it", why should that be a combination then, as you are claiming? In my opinion this is a perfectly normal indirect speech phrase, simply transforming Akld guy's proposed direct speech sentence "This is not something about which I would say, ‘I'm proud of it’". So please tell me why you claim this not to be correct English.--Herfrid (talk) 18:34, 27 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- PS: Moreover, what if we follow Akld guy's advice and replace "say about" with "claim"? In this case we would have to write: "This is not something [which] I would claim [that] I'm proud of"? And this in turn would lead me to the conclusion that we actually cannot leave out the "of" after "proud" when re-replacing "claim" with "say about", as the idiom goes "[to be] proud of sth" (and of course not "[to be] proud sth"). Wouldn't anything else be somewhat illogical?--Herfrid (talk) 18:51, 27 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Better English would be "This is not something I'd claim to be proud of", or if you reckon a preposition is not something to end a sentence with, then "This is not something of which I would claim to be proud."----Ehrenkater (talk) 19:02, 27 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks a lot, Ehrenkater! But would you say that the previous wording is [grammatically] wrong or just less idiomatic? If you opt for the former, please give a rationale. Best--Herfrid (talk) 19:09, 27 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
"This is not something about which I would say [that] I'm proud of it". As far as I can see, that doesn't break any grammatical rules; it is just unacceptably unwieldy.----Ehrenkater (talk) 19:14, 27 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- "about which" already points to the object, something, so there is no need to further indicate what is being pointed to by appending "of it". I doubt that we can ever satisfy Herfrid with sources on this, so if he/she refuses to accept the advice already given, I must assume that he/she is an argumentative troller or someone determined to mock the English language. Akld guy (talk) 23:12, 27 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- Dear Akld guy, referring to your aforesaid insinuation I have to expressly object: This is not about mocking English or anything of that sort, but rather about understanding its grammar! I am German, so not a native speaker, and thus I'm only trying to get to the bottom of how the grammar works in this sentence. I hope I have been able to hereby dispel suspicions about any supposedly destructive intent of mine.--Herfrid (talk) 15:49, 28 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- So, to hark back to the question what happens if we replace "claim" with "say about" again, we cannot let the "about" refer to "proud", as the latter goes exclusively with the preposition "of", right? In this case, we have to write: "This is not something about which I'd say [that] I'm proud of it" – as the reported version of Tevildo's direct speech proposal here. But please tell me if I've still misunderstood something here.--Herfrid (talk) 16:14, 28 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- Somebody archive this please. OP is continuing to argue with μηδείς and me, despite being told immediately above his/her post what the correct situation is and the reason for it. OP was also told the situation in a now-archived section, but reposted the original question here and began again. @Herfrid:, ping me again and I'll begin a complaint process at WP:ANI for harassment. Akld guy (talk) 19:33, 28 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- Please, I'm not arguing with anyone here – this must be a terrible misunderstanding of yours! I'm just trying to figure out why – from a strictly grammatical point of view – it should be incorrect to construct the sentence stated above, and, if I don't overlook anything, that still has not been clarified so far, in fact. And as Tevildo proposed a wording I tried to transform into an indirect speech sentence, I simply wanted to know why this has not been accepted as valid before – for personal reasons I could not answer then, for which I want to sincerely apologize.--Herfrid (talk) 20:32, 28 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- For reasons of clarity: This was Tevildo's wording: "This is not something about which I would say: I am proud of it." And that is what I have simply turned into reported speech above. So where the heck is the mistake?--Herfrid (talk) 21:04, 28 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- Your question has been answered: "about which" already points to the object, something, so there is no need to further indicate what is being pointed to by appending "of it". Because "of it" is a repetition of the pointing, it should be left out.
- Postscript: Tevildo's version turned the latter part of the sentence into a quote, which required a restatement of the object.Akld guy (talk) 21:41, 28 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- Herfrid, please. Your question has been answered. It's only grammatical to use both prepositions if the sentence contains direct speech. See Pleonasm, which I'm sure has already been linked several times in this discussion. Tevildo (talk) 21:45, 28 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- There is no more assuming good faith with insults to Akld and challenging the grammaticality of "It is I who...". The question's been asked and answered half a dozen times. μηδείς (talk) 01:48, 29 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
|