This is related somewhat to the discussion in the immediate section but something of longer-term interest to me. Generally, per WP:NPOV, WP:BLP and WP:LABEL, when we have reliable sources that use negative labels on people (that are considered public figures) or groups, it is generally appropriate to include that label in the article with in-line attribution. These labels range from things like "alt-right" to "white supremacist" to "climate change deniers" and so on. However, there are cases of people or groups where there is clearly enough high quality RSes that use that label to a point where from WP's standpoint it might as well be stated factually in Wikivoice, not requiring inline attribution though still needing sourcing.

The problem that I see is that editors frequently do not readily demonstrate the widespread use of a label before using that label as factual in Wikivoice. I would like to suggest that we have some set of guidelines, not hard rules but principles to base consensus discussion on, for when sourcing is sufficiently widespread to use labels factually on persons or groups. I don't know where this advice would immediately fit in a policy or guideline page, so I'm bringing it up here for discussion.

The way I see it, some of the key principles for when we can say a label can be used factually is:

• The person or group in question is readily covered by reliable sources. A person may be notable but if all the coverage of that person is in 5-6 sources, sufficient for notability, we don't have a good enough media sample size to say a label in a factual manner.
• The coverage should be from a wide range of high quality reliable sources, avoiding op-eds. If we have papers ranging from the NYTimes, the BBC, the Washington Post, the Guardian, CNN, etc. all applying a label to a person or group, that's a wide breadth of usage to show that the label is reflecting many different media voices. To contrast that, there are probably several people that have labels applied to them repeated by Fox News, but few other sources; that's not sufficient for using the label factually. And of course, we want to avoid low-but-usable quality RSes here as the demonstration.
• The coverage should be over a broad period of time, at least 6 months. We don't want people or groups, suddenly thrust in the spotlight, to have labels applied to them in a factual tone, per RECENTISM. This prevents minor spats than end up resolving or become non-essential in a few weeks to using the label. But if that label is used over several years by different sources, then that shows it has the longevity to be important for encyclopedic coverage, then it can be used factually.
• Editors should not have to be cherry picking sources to show the label applies. It is not expected that every mention of the person or group in the media will include the label in question, but it should be used with some reasonable frequency to know its common enough. If I can dig up only, say, 3-5 articles where the label is used for a person, but that person is otherwise the center of 1000s of articles, then we should not be using that label factually. In essential, this is a question of how UNDUE is the label's application. If its used frequently, then UNDUE is met.

Failing to make all of these points, the label can still be considered usable but should always be used with inline attribution (that is, using inline attribution for a label should be considered the default) However, in considering the last point, editors should also consider the UNDUE nature if it is not used that frequently.

If the label is shown to be used sufficiently to be treated factually, it should not be required to include all the sources that use it, but editors should select the best 2-3 representative pieces that address it (eg if you have a NYTimes piece using it, that would be one of those sources to cite). Ideally, determinations would be made on talk pages by showing the collection of sources, and archived, so that if a new editor comes along to dispute the factual presentation of the label, they can be pointed at the analysis in talk page archives.

This also would apply to categorization that uses labels. People nor groups should be categorized by these labels unless we know we can apply the label factually. If we are using inline attribution for the label in the appropriate article, then they should not at all be categorized in this manner, since we're not factually stating they are of that label. (Categories lack the ability to attribute, so this is where we have to be careful).

Of course, these are not all the considerations (for example, if the person or group self-identifies by the label, there's little question that that's a fact we can use), and its not meant to be prescriptive, but instead draw some lines that should be easily demonstrated and serve as points of reference in future debates. There might be other considerations or factors I've not considered, which also is what I would like to see further discussion on, in addition to, if this is reasonable language to include, where should it be included. --Masem (t) 17:51, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

Aside from self-identification, the fundamental problem with applying contentious labels is that they're almost never neutral. Take a person whom many sources call a conspiracy theorist: does the person agree? If not, don't use it in the intro. Discuss the opinions of reliable sources in an appropriate place, but don't label the person as such ("John Doe is an American conspiracy theorist..."), and don't put the majority point of view in the intro ("John Doe is an American whom sources X, Y, and Z call a conspiracy theorist..."). Find a neutral description and summary ("John Doe is an American writer whose focus has been on X, specifically advocating position Y") if it's critical to an awareness of the person, or leave it out if it's not. After all, there are plenty of disputed concepts with terms used by both sides, e.g. "John Doe is an American ufologist", not "John Doe is an American pseudoscientist who advocates alien abduction". Virtually everyone known for advancing such positions is a public speaker or a writer or a politician (how will you become well known if you don't do any of those?), so use the relevant term. Nyttend (talk) 02:31, 14 August 2019 (UTC)

Hello all,

Last month, the Wikimedia Foundation's Trust & Safety team announced a future consultation about partial and/or temporary office actions. We want to let you know that the draft version of this consultation has now been posted on Meta.

This is a draft. It is not intended to be the consultation itself, which will be posted on Meta likely in early September (the exact launch date will take into account the completion status of the Fram case). Please do not treat this draft as a consultation. Instead, we ask your assistance in forming the final language for the consultation.

For that end, we would like your input over the next couple of weeks about what questions the consultation should ask about partial and temporary Foundation office action bans and how it should be formatted. Please post it on the draft talk page. Our goal is to provide space for the community to discuss all the aspects of these office actions that need to be discussed, and we want to ensure with your feedback that the consultation is presented in the best way to encourage frank and constructive conversation.

Please visit the consultation draft on Meta-wiki and leave your comments on the draft’s talk page about what the consultation should look like and what questions it should ask.

Thank you for your input! -- The Trust & Safety team 14:27, 13 August 2019 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kbrown (WMF) (talk • contribs)

This "draft consultation" asserts partial Foundation bans "are final and non-negotiable." Did the Fram fiasco teach them anything at all? Jonathunder (talk) 18:21, 13 August 2019 (UTC)

It's just a repetition of the current policy. They've not changed anything. From the look of things this is requesting input on what the consultation will look like. What I find funny is that WMF is letting this be done in-house rather than hiring professionals to figure out how the community feels about this. Makes me wonder how any of the data resulting from this will be used, if at all. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 18:24, 13 August 2019 (UTC)

I object to calling that assertion "current policy." The one time they tried to make it policy, it failed. Jonathunder (talk) 18:26, 13 August 2019 (UTC)

Eh, I don't think that's an argument that'll go anywhere. WMF can make whatever bad policies they want that they'll follow. Whether we respect them or consider them binding upon us is a different matter entirely. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 18:28, 13 August 2019 (UTC)

Kbrown (WMF), this type of consultation ought to be conducted by productive experienced unpaid volunteers, with paid WMF staffers sitting on the sidelines, learning instead of interfering and meddling. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 04:05, 14 August 2019 (UTC)

Eh, I did interpret that text as a first draft of a Wikimedia-wide policy, not necessarily as a "this is how it's going to be" fait accompli. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 09:00, 14 August 2019 (UTC)

• Worth adding to WP:CENT? The list is getting pretty long, but removing the chess and tennis ones would seem legitimate, they surely can't be project-wide affecting issues (the chess one is also functionally done). Nosebagbear (talk) 15:50, 14 August 2019 (UTC)

While there is a general link to all the working group papers, it's such a long list, that I thought I'd draw specific attention to the recommendation for a unified code of conduct across all wikiprojects...something that has drawn some firm views in the past and it had received no specific attention on en-wiki.

For those either against or in favour of a unified code of conduct across all the wikiprojects, there's a specific working group discussion on it at meta. I think it could use some extra discussion. Link to Basic Suggestions Nosebagbear (talk) 11:38, 15 August 2019 (UTC)

There is also a 2nd working group that discussed a similar set of thoughts on a universal code of conduct: Rules and regulations, decision making processes and leadership Nosebagbear (talk)

Does the community have the ability to remove an arbitrator from his position before an arbitrator is up for reelection? If not, then perhaps it should have that ability. GoodDay (talk) 16:04, 10 August 2019 (UTC)

You can ask them nicely to resign or you can petition the other arbitrators to remove them.

Mandatory recall for arbitrators is probably not a good idea for the same reasons that mandatory community recall processes for administrators, checkusers, oversighters, and stewards do not exist: they will have to make decisions that are not always popular. That's why we have ArbCom: to make decisions that the community can't. --AntiCompositeNumber (talk) 20:35, 10 August 2019 (UTC)

I wouldn't have thought oversighters did a great deal that annoyed more than a couple of people (notwithstanding their creepy-ass logo) Nosebagbear (talk)

People get mad when they’re told no, and on a rare occasion OS blocks can be controversial, but, yeah, generally it’s pre laid back. TonyBallioni (talk) 13:05, 11 August 2019 (UTC)

Are you meaning merely removing the arbitrator from Arbcom, without anything else necessarily happening? If an arbitrator got into a mess and did things that deserved a community ban, presumably the arbitrator would be removed from the committee if the ban ended up happening; it would be bizarre (and not particularly likely) if a community-banned user continued functioning on the committee. Nyttend (talk) 01:40, 13 August 2019 (UTC)

• I’ve talked about this before, and the best way to do it currently is to organize a petition to amend the arbitration policy (all you need is 100 signatures) to trigger a referendum on the amendment. The amendment could be “Effective immediately, [Arbitrator X] is removed from the Arbitration Committee. Attempts to reappoint [Arbitrator X] by any means will result in the immediate and automatic removal of [Arbitrator X] from the Arbitration Committee.” The second sentence is in case it’s expected Jimbo Wales would try to overturn the dismissal for any reason and reappoint the arbitrator.
  Alternatively, you could get an amendment going for a recall procedure, which would be better policy than a one-off removal, though of course there are those who think recall referenda are themselves a terrible idea. But as long as the community is free to make amendments to the Arbitration Policy, we are free to use an amendment to remove an arbitrator that the rest of the Committee refuses to expel. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 01:51, 13 August 2019 (UTC)
  • This is simply a Very, Very Bad Idea. As explained above and within the existing policy, the Arbitration Committee is entrusted with the power to serve as the final, binding decision in resolution of a dispute. Wrangling together a hundred signatures of disgruntled individuals who disagree with an arbitration decision and using it as a justification to "throw the bums out" contravenes the spirit of Wikipedia policy (WP:NOTDEM, WP:CONSENSUS and WP:NOTBURO). But more importantly, it's ethically wrong. Duly-elected judicial bodies in healthy governments function through the concept of judicial independence, which means they are not subject to the whims and vagarities of straw polls, activist groups of legislators, executive fiats, etc.. Establishing a precedence that an arbitrator's decision can be overturned (or indeed an arbitrator removed) based on a canvassing of 100 editors would be akin to President Trump passing an executive order throwing out all of the Supreme Court Justices and null-and-voiding their decisions in the past year because their most recent ruling ran contrary to his policy positions. That would result in a constitutional crisis. If that's the sort of wide-scale disruption you're gunning for, you certainly have that right, but I guarantee you that the WMF or even Jimbo Wales himself would almost certainly intervene under those circumstances.--WaltCip (talk) 12:24, 14 August 2019 (UTC)
    • I mostly agree this is a bad way to handle an issue with a single member, keep in mind the "100" editor petition doesn't enact a change - it is a means to force a referendum on a matter to become open for community voting, when the committee doesn't otherwise approve the referendum themselves; it would then still require a community vote with 50%+1 in favor and with at least 100 supporters to pass. So no: 100 disgruntled editors can't hijack the committee if they are a minority. — xaosflux ^Talk 13:21, 14 August 2019 (UTC)
      • I suppose technically there could be a race condition type of attack here where the 100 coordinated supporters all voted instantaneously on the referendum as it doesn't specify a minimum voting period - but WP:NOTBURO and even WP:IAR would be sufficient safety valves against that. — xaosflux ^Talk 13:26, 14 August 2019 (UTC)
        • I see now where you mentioned that ratification of an amendment requires "majority support" and that the 100+ member petition is merely to bring the matter to a vote. My mistake.--WaltCip (talk) 14:17, 14 August 2019 (UTC)

I see nothing wrong with having such a procedure, so long as it is very difficult to succeed, but would not vote to enact one for the purpose of removing an incumbent (hypothetical, I'm not referring to status quo). And I believe others would be similarly reluctant. If so, given the lethargy that overcomes the community when their ox isn't gored, I think such a proposal would be difficult to pass--Wehwalt (talk) 13:40, 14 August 2019 (UTC)

• I've long held that my "administrator" recall procedures can be extended to arbitrator (or bureaucrat, or any other hat I might hold). Indeed, I first put up the notice back in 2013, and made sure it was there to keep my head in check when I realised this oncoming storm. I'm fairly unusual with that, but Arbs are reasonable people and if a significant number were petitioning for recall of an individual, I'm sure they'd listen. Worm^TT(talk) 15:31, 16 August 2019 (UTC)

Hello,

I have been doing a bunch of searching on the wiki for states and found that there are a ton of sleep away camps with poor sourcing and notability. Is there any specific policy or criteria for them? Some are very promotional and others are just stubs with primary sources. I have nominated a few for deletion already, but am wondering if summer camps were even worthy of inclusion. Of course if they pass the WP:GNG they are, but what about the others I mentioned above?

Thank you AmericanAir88^(talk) 22:23, 17 August 2019 (UTC)

AmericanAir88, you could argue that WP:NORG may apply, but if you're looking for a set of special criteria that automatically establish a summer camp's notability, I'm not aware of one and would be quite surprised if we had one. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 22:57, 17 August 2019 (UTC)

• No special requirements needed... just apply GNG, and do some basic WP:BEFORE research before sending to AFD. Blueboar (talk) 23:18, 17 August 2019 (UTC)

What possible reason could there be to include fan art in articles? Particularly where that art is not very good? Tony May (talk) 23:26, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

What the right honourable gentleman is referring to is his continued war against anything he doesn't like, despite input from other editors against this. He also fails to at least have a basic understanding of the term 'fan art' anyway. We go through this charade every few months before he disappears for a while. Jeni ^(talk) 23:28, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

The relevant guideline is Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Images. Whether the image is "fan art", whatever you mean by that, is normally irrelevant, and there is no rule against using "unofficial" or editor-made images. The listed exceptions have to do with circumstances where there is literally an official, correct version of an image, as with a logo. Whether the art is "not very good" is a subjective matter, and you'd have to look for consensus. Someguy1221 (talk) 23:56, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

Looking into this I noticed that some of the images being removed as fan art and then restored were all the images from British Rail Class 158#Liveries though I’m not sure if this dispute has carried over to other article. Admittedly not what I was expecting.--64.229.166.98 (talk) 06:47, 8 August 2019 (UTC)

• For those unfamiliar with the history here (and there's no reason anyone else should be), this is a piece of WP:OTHERPARENT forum-shopping by Tony May who has recently decided that he should be given sole authority to decide which images should be used to illustrate Wikipedia's articles on trains and that any image he doesn't like is "fan art", and has had a multi-month tantrum that nobody else agrees. AFAIK it began at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject UK Railways/Archive 45#Continual criticisms by Tony May and is currently at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject UK Railways#Tony May at it again. ‑ Iridescent 07:23, 8 August 2019 (UTC)

The images in question seem to be photographs of trains and technical drawings of train liveries. I would not describe them as "fan art"; their purpose is to explain real-life subjects more precisely and concisely than words could. There has been discussion about how best to photograph a train – some angles may be more artistic but less encyclopaedic – but I'm not sure that it needs a WP-wide policy debate. Certes (talk) 10:07, 8 August 2019 (UTC)

Let's be specific. Which image/s is/are the alleged "fan art", and where would we use them? Cambalachero (talk) 16:05, 8 August 2019 (UTC)

Why there may be more on other pages the images being use at British Rail Class 158#Liveries section were some of the images that were said to be fan art.--64.229.166.98 (talk) 16:14, 8 August 2019 (UTC)

I wouldn't consider the train livery images to be fan art, Fan art usually are drawings drawn from scratch whereas these are from templates (the train template is the same in all images so clearly wasn't done from scratch although the livery on them were),

IMHO I would consider the images to be of use and help to our readers and I believe these images achieve more than just actual photographs,

Someone ought to block Tony for his continued disruption across the project. –Davey2010^Talk 16:33, 8 August 2019 (UTC)

The images at British Rail Class 158#Liveries are not fan art and provide useful information. Arguably more effectively than most photographs for that specific purpose. They are very adequate quality technical illustrations, well suited to their function. I cannot comment on other possible cases I have not seen. · · · Peter Southwood ^(talk): 20:17, 8 August 2019 (UTC)

Those are quality technical drawings; assuming that they are accurate, they’re more clear and useful than photographs would be. Which is always the whole point of using illustrations... OP is mistaken on all counts, including what “fan art” means. postdlf (talk) 21:17, 8 August 2019 (UTC)

• These are very well done, freely licensed, and in my view very much contribute educational content to the article. I would not at all consider them to be "fan art", and would support retaining them. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 21:25, 8 August 2019 (UTC)

• I agree that the images at British Rail Class 158#Liveries are of high quality and should remain in the article unless someone points out some gross inaccuracies. There were said to be more examples of this controversial "fan art", could someone involved list some (or all) of these other examples? I do not like to judge the entire issue based solely on one example. --Hecato (talk) 21:40, 8 August 2019 (UTC)

@Hecato: Here are some more that Tony has complained about: British Rail Class 325, British Rail Class 801, British Rail Class 195, British Rail Class 319 - X201 (talk) 15:24, 9 August 2019 (UTC)

Thank you, X201. I feel the same about these images as I do about the images in British Rail Class 158#Liveries. They are useful, sufficiently professional and of sufficiently high quality. They should remain in their respective articles. I also do not consider them to be "fan art", which (so far) appears to be just a buzzword used by the topic starter in place of real criticism. --Hecato (talk) 18:31, 9 August 2019 (UTC)

• When I heard the term "fan art," I immediately assumed someone had drawn pictures of say fictional characters for use in the encyclopaedia, which I would be against for illustrative purposes. I am not at all concerned about the train drawings, nor do I consider them "fan art." SportingFlyer T·C 06:09, 9 August 2019 (UTC)

I see little difference between badly-drawn irrelevant pictures of trains and badly-drawn irrelevant pictures of (say) "Hermione from Harry Potter". Neither has any place in a professional work. Tony May (talk) 08:34, 9 August 2019 (UTC)

Tony May, we are not a professional work, but a volunteer-written encyclopedia. You are free to volunteer to contribute better images, but these appear relevant and certainly better than nothing. Unlike fan art (which involves interpretation), they also appear to be a faithful representation of the way these trains look. If they are not, please state exactly in which way they are wrong so they can be improved. —Kusma (t·c) 09:09, 9 August 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for your considered response Kusma - but the problem here in part is that there are better images. The drawings lack appropriate logos, and I cannot confirm their accuracy - it is likely that the author misses underframe detail, but he might also get the major dimensions wrong. Without a reliable technical drawing to compare them against, it's not that they are inaccurate, it's that we don't know and can't know how accurate they may or may not be. Tony May (talk) 10:15, 9 August 2019 (UTC)

I do not see that underframe detail, exact structural dimensions etc really matters for images that are intended to show liveries. The one ground I could see as applying to user-generated art is if there was concern that original research applied, as has been the case with some depictions of ancient flags/insignia. Is it your contention that those liveries are basically drawn from the imagination of the creator? If not, I cannot see the issue in this specific instance. - Sitush (talk) 10:35, 9 August 2019 (UTC)

Your argument boils down to "I don't like them and I don't trust them." For the first part of that, no one agrees with you so let's move on. For the second part, if you think they are inaccurate you would help your case by proving it, rather than speculating on what might be wrong with the images. Someguy1221 (talk) 10:55, 9 August 2019 (UTC)

A few things:

1. User-created images are fully acceptable on en.wiki and commons. We expect in so much as possible that users uploading their own work release them as a free license unless for some reason the material requires a copyright. (for example, if uploading a photograph of a public statue that is in a place where Freedom of Panorama does not exist, we expect the photo to be freely licensed, but noting the copyrighted statue keeps it non-free).
2. Most of the time, we expect these images to support the topic, and not just "I'm an artist, look at my work!". So in something like OS-tan and furry fandom we have user "fan art" but presented as illustrative of the topic, and not in a manner meant to further the exposure of the artist. Other examples include recreation of graphs from sources that provide data, illustrations that mimic but do not directly copy the aspects of copyright illustrations, and so forth.
3. Now all that said, I see the article in question involves the liveries on British trains. That may be a problem in terms of being a free work, because of the very low threshold of originality for copyright in the UK. The shape and function of the train cannot be copyrighted, but the paint job can. Photos of trains from askew are fine, because the livery becomes de minimus to illustrating the trains, but the user-made images may be questionable. I don't know if this aspect has been discussed before. (Those images would be fine on en.wiki under one of our PD tags here, because in the US they are too simple for copyright). --Masem (t) 16:45, 9 August 2019 (UTC)

   Some of these might be over the TOO under US law, too, such as File:Class 158 arriva trains wales diagram.PNG and perhaps File:Class 158 East Midlands Trains Diagram.PNG. —Cryptic 19:53, 9 August 2019 (UTC)

• I'm not sure 'fan art' is the most useful descriptor here, but I do share some reservations for these images' usage. For one thing, I have to say that by the standards of illustration, these are not great. Viewed at full-resolution they're rather low-quality, with jagged, aliased lines everywhere. If you're going to make these sorts of diagrams, they really should be vector-based SVGs, or at least much cleaner rasters. Secondly, there's an obvious verification issue here—a reader has no clue whether or not these liveries are actually accurate, and I have no way of checking it (even comparing to images isn't a great option, because there's plenty of room—in the creation of these images as well as trying to check them against the real thing—for real-world factors like distortion to crop in and make these not very accurate as technical diagrams.) Finally there's the copyright issue—these are being uploaded to commons under free licenses when they are using logos (claimed under fair use, as here, which is a gross misunderstanding of Commons and copyright) and when the liveries themselves could meet the threshold of originality. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^talk 12:02, 10 August 2019 (UTC)
• Look at File:Class 158 in the Transport for Wales livery.png. For one thing, this is a really basic colour scheme; I don't see how this could be a copyrightable subject (except by the person who drew the image of course). Moreover, the uploader says that there weren't any visible logos in the picture from which this was created — is it possible that there is no logo on some of these coaches in real life? If so, the absence of a logo is not fundamentally a problem. As long as this image is reasonably close to the actual coaches' paint schemes, there's no reason to object to it, and the same is true of all other images of this sort if we ignore copyright concerns. Nyttend (talk) 02:00, 13 August 2019 (UTC)

• And per Masem's comment, the problem with fan art is when people upload their own artwork for the sake of glorifying themselves, or when they upload stuff that's pretty grossly out of scope, e.g. "My impressionist painting of a sunset.jpg". Also, demanding that all the little underframe details doesn't really make sense; the focus is the paint scheme, and getting the underframe details precisely right is no more important than getting tons of islands' borders perfectly right in a national map, e.g. File:Philippine provinces by income classification.PNG. At worst, little detail errors are grounds for improving the image or replacing it with a better image, not grounds for replacing it with no image. Nyttend (talk) 02:06, 13 August 2019 (UTC)

• Exactly on this point. As long as user-made images are not purposely mis-detailing critical features, these types of "errors" can be routinely ignored. For example, I can see the case where a user provides a simplified drawing to help expedite explanations (such as File:Notre-Dame de Paris composite transverse section.svg used to help describe the parts of the cathedral that are important to under the Notre Dame fire). The drawing may not be perfectly accurate CAD, but its good enough that I know exactly what's being talked about and can recognize the various parts in real life photos of the cathedral. --Masem (t) 02:27, 13 August 2019 (UTC)
• As yet another point of reference, at one point we lacked a free picture of Kim Jong-un (but since then he traveled and later met with Trump which generated tons of images). In the past, "fan art" was considered a suitable replacement as long as it 1) wasn't crappy and 2) was not meant to be overly artist. See for example this archived thread. --Masem (t) 02:37, 13 August 2019 (UTC)

I mean, just to push back a bit, all the material in the Wikipedia is suppose to be ref'd. "This drawing is what I personally believe the entity looks like" is kind of similar to "this writing is what I personally believe the entity did", n'est-ce pas? You'd prefer something from a publication where the drawing went thru a fact-checker who compared it to photos in a book (or whatever, depending on what the publication's fact-checking procedure is). So User:Tony May makes a very valid point. (Use of "fan art", which is unnecessarily abrasive and also misleading, doesn't help him make his point. But not expressing yourself ideally, and being wrong, are two different things.)

I mean, where is the proof that the image is correct? "It just is, I saw it myself with my own eyes" is not sufficient ref for text, why should it be for images. If the artist is using a source, why not use that source directly? It's OK if the artist is working from a text description (e.g., making an image from the text "The flag of Libya is a green rectangle, ratio 3:2, precise shade #008000" or whatever), or from another image that shows what the drawing shows but not as clearly or prettily.(We sometimes do this for pictures of people's pudendums and so on, and other cases where a schematic or drawing elides distracting details.) But you need a source. If there's a source, the person ought to be able to point us to it, and Bob's your uncle. If the artist doesn't have a source that she can show us, tho... that's a problem.

the train livery example needs a ref(s). At the end of the section or whatever. We're not in the business of "This is what it looks like. Trust us." The reader needs to be able to satisfy herself that it's correct. Unref'd material that is challenged -- as seems the case here -- on almost any basis is not usually kept. Herostratus (talk) 03:20, 13 August 2019 (UTC)

It is not unreasonable that if someone is making an image that is representative of something else and that the image is meant to be close to the real thing, that they provide the necessary references to back that up on the File: page, per WP:V. At the same time, there may be some things so "obvious" that there's no need to evoke WP:V. That should be a consensus of discussion to make that determination. --Masem (t) 03:57, 13 August 2019 (UTC)

It's certainly a solvable problem, as commons has photos of actual examples of each and every one of these liveries. A lot of photos. Some people really like their trains: Commons:Category:British Rail Class 158. If anyone asks why have technical drawings if we have real photos, my personal answer would be that it's really hard to convince the train cars to stack themselves so perfectly for comparison, but that should be a matter for consensus at article talk page anyway. Someguy1221 (talk) 04:08, 13 August 2019 (UTC)

@Someguy1221: There may be a lot of photos, but apparently they're amateurish, not professional and vanity photos. - X201 (talk) 13:11, 13 August 2019 (UTC)

I think this sort of thing can be original research. On this occasion and this occasionan I have removed such imagery. Bus stop (talk) 04:17, 13 August 2019 (UTC)

I wouldn't even call those original research. I would just say it is obvious that neither of them is an attempt to faithfully represent the article's subject. Someguy1221 (talk) 04:24, 13 August 2019 (UTC)

Christiaan Tonnis may be a nice guy and all, but his thing is not producing faithful-to-life illustrations; he's trying to capture "psychological knowledge" and represent the person's emotions. In general, portraits are very different from images of manufactured objects: if you get a few of the details wrong the person might not be recognisable, and if you just leave out the little details the person looks unrealistic, but with the manufactured object it just looks like a simplification. A better comparison might be the use of a simplified person and simplified animal, e.g. File:Apatosaurus scale mmartyniuk wiki.png. Were these dinosaurs really smooth and rounded, did Brontosaurus parvus really have a sharp vertical spot at the base of its neck (under the "m" in "20 m"), and are all humans a bit shorter than 2m? No, probably no, and no. We continue using this illustration because a simplification is perfectly fine here, and the person isn't intended to represent a specific individual like the Burroughs images are. Nyttend (talk) 11:38, 13 August 2019 (UTC)

We look very deeply into human faces. There is no room for error. Images that are non-photographic that are notable can be used even though they've taken liberties with appearance and especially if they've stood the test of time. But hand-drawn imagery of faces that are of no particular notability and especially if recently produced are unacceptable. They are too interpretive and we know nothing about the context of the interpretation. Gertrude Stein was painted by several notable artists and we correctly include images of those paintings in that article. Bus stop (talk) 14:36, 13 August 2019 (UTC)

I will again point to the various user-made drawings of Kim Jong-un discussed here as examples of acceptable, not-artsy representations of a living person in lieu of a photograph that were all considered acceptable. in constrast with the example from the Tonnis image above. Yes, there's a small amount of creativity (line weight, medium, etc.) but each of those focused on accurately showing Jong-un to a point that if you saw a photo of Jong-un, you would likely recognize him from the drawing. Where there is a question of artistic liberty being used, that's a matter for consensus to determine if there is too much, but I would not be against guidance that says "user-made images should avoid taking excessive creative liberties and should strive to be more visually accurate. user-made images are not meant to be showing off your art skills but for illustrated encyclopedic topics". --Masem (t) 14:43, 13 August 2019 (UTC)

Masem—the "user-made drawings of Kim Jong-un" are not acceptable. They are original research. Bus stop (talk) 18:08, 13 August 2019 (UTC)

Nearly everything that goes into mainspace is some form of "original research" by editors in terms of how we interpret a reliable source and summarize it. This is however an acceptable form of original research as long as we don't interpret or synthesize beyond that. Similarly, a drawing that is a sufficiently close approximation to a real-world image, such as those Kim Jong-un, are also acceptable "original research" because there is no attempt to interpret or synthesis the image. Contrast that to the Tonnis image described above, which is absolutely interpretive of the real person. That is unacceptable original research. --Masem (t) 18:17, 13 August 2019 (UTC)

It doesn't matter if there is no attempt to interpret the image because such interpretation is unavoidable. Your argument should be that even photography is interpretive. While this is true, photography is a world apart from drawing. Except in the case of a manipulated photograph there is a rational relationship between the subject photographed and the image produced. A camera functions identically no matter what it is photographing. A camera is a mechanical device. There is an element of rationality versus irrationality that distinguishes a photograph from a drawing. Bus stop (talk) 18:44, 13 August 2019 (UTC)

For en.wiki, that does not matter. Yes, a camera makes a "slavish copy" so that it should still be accurate of the original object photographed with no new interpretations/copyright, but the same can be done by a non-photographic work too. As long as the drawer has made something that is sufficient accurate and does not add excessive artistic interpretations, we can use that, period. The objections raised would eliminate far too much free imagery on WP and commons. --Masem (t) 18:59, 13 August 2019 (UTC)

"The objections raised would eliminate far too much free imagery on WP". Can you link to some examples in article space, especially ones involving the human face? Bus stop (talk) 19:07, 13 August 2019 (UTC)

• What do we implement as a solution to Tony May being regularly disruptive and doing his best to drive other editors off the project? He's scored one already, it appears he's after another. Edit-warring against others (and there's no support for this on the project talk page) to repeatedly remove images with summaries like "tidying up" and "fan art" is unacceptably dismissive of the work of other editors, even if it's no clear breach of CIVIL. This is a nett negative here and we'd be much better without it. I'd support formal TBANs. Andy Dingley (talk) 23:55, 13 August 2019 (UTC)

I mean, that's a fair point... to a degree. User:Tony May needs to learn that an edit with a summary of "Removed fan art -- tidying up" is not acceptable, while the exact same edit with a summary of "Removing unref'd image, not confident that this image is correct, please provide ref if restoring" is fine. Edit summaries are part of the edit. I have (on occasion) rolled back edits that were perfectly fine solely on their edit summary. Not often, but not never; an excellent edit that improves a section, add refs, improves grammar, fixes typos, and removes unneccessary text, but with an edit summary of "Fix nonsense written by morons" -- I will revert that in a New York minute. So can you. You can't talk to people that way. User:Tony May, are you listening? You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. We are a colloborative project, and that can trump narrow concerns over particular points of disagreement over content.

So it's two different issues: this persons's attitude and behavior, and the question on the merits what images are acceptable. On the first, we have certainly had excellent editors shown the door for being assholes. (I don't know this guy so I don't have an opinion.) That is a matter for WP:ANI I guess. Go for it. The Admins are (mostly) smart and savvy, they will give good advice. All you will probably get is a warning to the person, but that's a start. Maybe he will get the message; if not, you have a marker to point to for future actions.

On the second matter, images need to be ref'd. If there's actual reason to believe that the material is wrong, out it goes. If there isn't, but you just want it ref'd, and it's a detail and not key info, my usual procedure is to tag the section, wait a year, and then delete if nobody's come up with refs. However, that's not written down anywhere, it's just best practice IMO. However, I have enforced people just taking stuff out out. My usual point is something along the lines of "You're not asserting that material is wrong, so your options are to 1) go find the refs yourself and add them, 2) if you can't be assed to do that, tag the material, and wait a reasonable time for someone else to do it, and 3) if you can't be assed to do even that, the just let it go. So on that basis I'm restoring the material for now". (But then I usually do go find the refs myself.) I would support any editor who adopts this policy.

Here I have tagged a section as an example. This is how it is best done. Herostratus (talk) 03:25, 14 August 2019 (UTC)

Just to throw my hat in, i've been one of the editors Tony seemed to hate, much to the point he'd message me on here after removing my diagrams with words to the effect of cease immediately Don't be afraid to be creative (talk) 03:32, 14 August 2019 (UTC)

If you're feeling hate from an editor, that's not OK. I think that this matter need to move to WP:ANI. Get your examples in order, with links. Herostratus (talk) 03:35, 14 August 2019 (UTC)

I've simply given up posting diagrams to wikipedia, only posting them to Wikimedia Commons now Don't be afraid to be creative (talk) 03:45, 14 August 2019 (UTC)

• It's ANI time: User_talk:Railfan23#You_need_to_undo_your_ill-advised_moves· Andy Dingley (talk) 11:04, 14 August 2019 (UTC)

There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. The thread is Tony May and persistent criticism and belittling of other editors on British railways. Andy Dingley (talk) 12:21, 14 August 2019 (UTC)

Starting a pointless AN/I thread is an attempt to derail this discussion. It would be good to reach consensus and confirm the legal issues. Tony May (talk) 15:00, 20 August 2019 (UTC)

The ANI thread is far from pointless. As we've spent this year (maybe longer) having you repeatedly attack a range of other editors like this, it's now time to discuss whether formal restrictions on your editing would give the rest of us a better editing experience.

As noted there, it's not about "what makes the best photo?", it's about whether it's OK for you to keep telling other editors, "Firstly I don't need to make you look like a "shit photographer" - you're managing that all by yourself on Flickr." and many more in that vein. Andy Dingley (talk) 16:10, 20 August 2019 (UTC)

Should the existing page that is labeled as Portal Guidelines have the status of a guideline? 19:09, 18 July 2019 (UTC)

This page has been in place since 2006 and has, in general, been recognized as a guideline, but some editors have questioned whether it was ever properly adopted, and others have wished to suspend it. The purpose of this RFC is to clarify either that it is a guideline, or that it isn’t a guideline. If it isn’t, then we can go back to square one and adopt a new portal guideline, or we can we Use Common Sense.

The key sentence of the guideline is, and has been for more than a decade: Please bear in mind that portals should be about broad subject areas, which are likely to attract large numbers of interested readers and portal maintainers.

If the guideline is adopted or re-adopted, changes to it can be made by another RFC.

Please Support or Oppose adoption or re-adoption of the guideline in the Survey. The Threaded Discussion section is for back-and-forth discussion. Robert McClenon (talk) 19:09, 18 July 2019 (UTC)

Survey

ALT1

Threaded Discussion (POG2019RFC)

• Comment As background to this, some editors have been on a deletion spree attempting to remove portals. Among other possible problems, one deletion justification put forward for a portal to be deleted is that it has been unmaintained for a while. So in the crucial sentence mentioned above, portals being broad is uncontroversial, but the subordinate clause apparently requiring regular maintenance, IMO needs more discussion. In article space, we have the general consensus that there is no deadline. In WikiProject space, projects with few recent edits might be marked as inactive, but they are allowed to stand. Whilst an infrequently edited portal is perhaps less useful over time, why are portals an exception to the no deadline consensus? For my part, I would have a hard time accepting this as a guideline with this apparent editing frequency Sword of Damocles built in. And if the consensus is that it should be in there, I think thresholds need to be established, so editors are clear when a portal is endangered due to lack of recent edits. --((u|Mark viking)) {Talk} 19:39, 18 July 2019 (UTC)
  • Just some additional background: that portals are intended to be maintained has been part of the guidelines since before there was a Portal namespace. The 9 July 2005 version of WP:PORTAL says, in bold, Only create a portal if you intend to maintain it. Of course, consensus can change, and I agree there should be more discussion on this point. Wug·a·po·des​ 23:11, 18 July 2019 (UTC)
    • Thank you for the history. While I am a proponent of not setting deadlines in general at WP, I didn't appreciate that active maintenance was built into the Portal ideal. I tend to think of a portal as a prettier version of an outline, which is just fine as a reasonably static entity. But if dynamic content is seen as a core requirement or purpose of portals, I can understand how others editors consider infrequently edited portals as failures. --((u|Mark viking)) {Talk} 00:20, 19 July 2019 (UTC)
      • At some point in the past I suggested merging outlines and portals mostly for that reason. Part of the problem is that the outline/index/portal system is so fragmented that it's not obvious what function they each uniquely serve. Consider how much different Portal:Contents/Outlines is from Portal:Sports for instance; the only thing they seem to have in common is the namespace. Wug·a·po·des​ 01:43, 19 July 2019 (UTC)
• Comment If you want to get editors to try and improve portals and make them more attractive and useful for the users, then going on huge deletion sprees based on pageview numbers is probably not very productive. And telling those editors who try to improve portals that they are just wasting their time and they should just get in line for the purge is not helpful either. If this is how portals are treated then you might as well do another RfC and delete them all. Nobody wants to spend time on a portal if the deletion squad comes next week and deletes it all anyway. --Hecato (talk) 20:43, 18 July 2019 (UTC)

  Hecato and Mark viking: The portals project left many hundreds of portals abandoned and outdated for over a decade, and then allowed itself to be used as the base for mass exercise of portalspam. The project did nothing to cleanup the portalspam, and nothing to cleanup the junk which it has left around for a decade. On the contrary, the portalistas have hurled indignation, abuse, vitriol, lies, and much else at those who have done any stage of the cleanup which the portalistas themselves shirked.

The main issue now is that there are still way more portals than readers want or use, and way more portals than there are teams of maintainers.

So no, at this point we definitely do not need editors to try and improve portals and make them more attractive and useful for the users. What we need is a much deeper cull of portals, to get them down to a very much smaller number of portals that are actually used and actually capable of being maintained. Basically, we need to chop off the long thin tail on that graph, and concentrate on a very small number of portals. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 22:54, 18 July 2019 (UTC)

"We" need to concentrate? What portals are you improving currently? --Hecato (talk) 08:18, 19 July 2019 (UTC)

User:Hecato - When you have made one-third as many edits in portal space as User:BrownHairedGirl has made, perhaps she will be ready to answer one-third of your questions about "improving" portals that no one views and that contain obsolete information. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:16, 19 July 2019 (UTC)

With the benefit of his vast experience of 35 days as a registered editor, and his massive contribution of 605 edits, Hecato is making a lot of very strident pronouncements about issues which others have grappled with on Wikipedia for many years. It can be amusing to see someone sign up and then pronounce as if they had years of experience, but it's rarely an approach which ends well in any field.

One of the many things which Hecato misses is that one of the roles of an editor is to actually to edit by removal. We edit articles to remove surplus verbiage, unsourced assertions, falsehoods and other extraneous matters. We delete article on non-notable topics, and we merge other items to lists of broader articles. We edit the template namespace to remove unused or unhelpful templates, such as navboxes with too few links. We edit the category namespace to delete categories which fail any of a huge range of criteria, and to purge many other categories.

So what Hecato maybe hasn't noticed is that in their enthusiasm for keeping a page which they created, they have aligned themself with a group of fundamentalists who object in principle to any deletions in portalspace, even of spam, and who have made it their mission to preserve the long tail of unread, abandoned portals. Hecato is entitled to join that team if they want to, but the preservation of abandoned junk seems a very odd priority for joining Wikipedia. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 17:56, 19 July 2019 (UTC)

I did not know on wikipedia arguments are won by seniority. You wrote a lot of text with assumptions about my motivations and the characters of people you assume I have "aligned" or "allied" myself to, but you forgot to answer my question. What portals are you currently improving? Do you intend to invest a lot of time working on improving portals in the future, once you are done with your so-called "deep culling"? --Hecato (talk) 19:55, 19 July 2019 (UTC)

• The page is currently marked as a guideline...? Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 21:04, 18 July 2019 (UTC)

User:Jo-Jo Eumerus - It has been marked as a guideline for 13 years, but recently some of the editors who defend all portals including crud portals proposed to suspend it, and then User:SmokeyJoe discovered that it had never been formally adopted as a guideline, and so it has been variously tagged. I would have thought that being used as a guideline for 13 years would grandfather it, but some editors now think that it is disputed. So the purpose of this RFC is to formalize the existing page to be a real guideline if it wasn't one. Thank you for asking. I didn't think it should be necessary, but it apparently is necessary to re-establish it. Robert McClenon (talk) 22:46, 18 July 2019 (UTC)

@User:Jo-Jo Eumerus, the basic dispute about the guideline is quite comical.

In a nutshell: the guideline is entirely the work of portalistas, developed by them over a decade. The cleanup volunteers have been using the criteria set by the portalistas themselves as the principle by which to delete the vast piles of abandoned junk portals. This has outraged the portalistas, who are incandescent at the sheer wickedness of the cleanup volunteers' effort to stop wasting readers time with decade-old abandoned junk. So the portalistas have been repeatedly trying to remove from their own guideline anything which assists in the deletion of the unviewed abandoned junk portals which the portalistas love so much. Those text-removal attempts failed, so now the portalistas don't seem know whether they still want their own guideline or not, and the most currently vocal of them has taken up a stance which oscillates between fantasy and outright lying about what the guideline actually say.

So basically, expect this RFC to have people coming at it from all sort of unexpected angles. It will either be a damp squib, or an excuse to consume lots and lots of popcorn. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs)

User:Mark viking and User:Hecato complain that there has been a "huge deletion spree". The history is that there was a huge reckless portal creation spree in late 2018 and the very beginning of 2019, in which thousands of portals were created using automated portal creation scripts that created portals in a few minutes at a time. The portal creation spree took place quietly, subtly, because the creation of pages in Wikipedia is a quiet process that doesn't have to be broadcast. Much of that portal creation was reversed by two systematic deletions involving almost as much work by User:BrownHairedGirl in identifying those portals using AWB and listing them as it took to spam them into existence, and these deletions, like the individual deletions underway at MFD, are a noisy process, done with full publicity and plenty of notice. In the process, User:BrownHairedGirl and I and a few other editors discovered just how bad many of the portals are. While the portals that were created by the portal platoon in late 2018 were nearly all crud, we discovered that crud had been building up for at least a decade that still needs to be sent to the bit bucket. Robert McClenon (talk) 23:25, 18 July 2019 (UTC)

I will add that, as to the complaint that editors are not being encouraged to improve portals, it is true that BHG and I are not encouraging last-minute slapdash improvements to existing crud portals. Existing crud portals should be deleted before we decide which ones should be maintained and improved. Robert McClenon (talk) 23:25, 18 July 2019 (UTC)

I am sorry, but your words are hard to believe when I read discussions like this one called "Unwanted portals" which is entirely based on pageviews and not the quality of the portal or "breadth of subject" or whatever other policy is poorly hammered into shape to justify the delete-no-matter-what vote on the MfDs. I do not believe you will stop once all the so-called "crud" portals are gone. --Hecato (talk) 07:22, 19 July 2019 (UTC)

Hecato, if you have found a measure other than pageviews by which to identify unwnated portals, then please present it for consideration.

Note that even after 5 months of deleting ~84% of all portals (the spam and the abandoned), 94% of the the remainder get less than 100 page views a day. Over 60% get less that 25 views per day. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 17:08, 19 July 2019 (UTC)

• Comment Firstly, let me apologise to readers who have read this comment before. I repeat it because this is the umpteenth forum to restart this discussion and some editors may have missed the prequels. In 2018 there were about 1500 portals. WP:ENDPORTALS, whilst it did not endorse every single portal, found a strong consensus against deleting or even deprecating portals at this time. Many more portals were created, some on narrow topics and containing errors, but almost all were soon deleted. The deletion process then turned to existing portals. Although the rate has slowed, we are now down to 858 portals and losing about five a day. Many of us see a frog-boiling process of inventing ever more innovative deletion criteria. One of many examples is WP:REDUNDANTFORK, which explicitly states over 100 times that it applies only to articles. (Portals will by necessity present material which is already in articles; that's their job.) WikiProject Portals and associated pages such as WP:POG are now a dysfunctional WP:BATTLEGROUND. The talk pages have become unusably large, as any attempt to improve or even justify the existence of a portal is met with a WP:WALLOFTEXT from those who believe portals to be junk and crud and that we definitely do not need "editors to try and improve portals and make them more attractive and useful for the users". Editors are being driven away from portal maintenance, and possibly from Wikipedia. More importantly, none of this helps our readers. Certes (talk) 10:03, 19 July 2019 (UTC)
  • WARMONGER Certes LAMENTS WAR HE STARTED. Certes has a really brass neck writing that, because Certes is one of the two editors most responsible for insisting that portals become a battleground.

Back in February/March, there was extensive discussion about how to remove the 4,200 automated spam portals created by @The Transhumanist (TTH) and his cronies. There were proposals for speedy deletion of the spam, much of which was created by TTH just for the heck of it."

Certes was one of the most vocal opponents of using speedy deletion criteria to clean up the spam. Not only did Certes demand that each of these portals be examined individually, Certes explicitly refused to assist with the one-by-one cleanup which he insisted others do.

Even at this stage, when the issue was just a torrent of spam, Certes denounced those trying to clean it up as waging "war on portals".

When I tried back in March to assemble a group of editors from across the spectrum to draw up an RFC on ways ahead, Certes refused to participate.

When the cleanup of the 4200 spam portal revealed the existence of hundreds more portals which had been abandoned for a decade or more with negligible readership, the MFD process has continued.

It is a great pity that it has become so conflictual. But a very large proportion of the blame for that lies directly with Certes, who has consistently rejected dialogue and actively sought to create a battleground. The editors who have worked on clearing TTH's portalspam and then on the sea of abandoned junk have been subjected by the portalistas to sustained abuse, hostility, personal attacks, repeated lies ... and Certes is one of the instigators of the battleground atmosphere in which cleanup has proceeded. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 14:48, 19 July 2019 (UTC)

I would just like to point out that this is the level of dialogue administrator BrownHairedGirl brings to all discussions related to portals. --Hecato (talk) 15:39, 19 July 2019 (UTC)

Warmonger? Cronies? Really? If you want to lament that this is a battleground ripe with conflict, start by examining your own behaviour... Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 16:22, 19 July 2019 (UTC)

Unfortunate, and there needs to be a dial back. The WP:SHOUTING by BHG is another sign. Please look again at WP:ADMIN and the conduct expectations there, also, basically every Arbcom case has something like these words, 'even difficult situations should be addressed in a calm and dignified fashion'- so, something to ponder. Alanscottwalker (talk) 16:51, 19 July 2019 (UTC)

@Headbomb, I have been on the receiving end 6 months of battlefield conduct from Certes and his cronies, who have sustained a barrage of accusations, name-calling, lies and ABF ever since the first moves were to remove the flood of portalspam. After month of being passively on the receiving end of these warriors' antics, I am now calling it out per WP:SPADE. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 17:14, 19 July 2019 (UTC)

Or you could take a WP:Wikibreak and dial things back down, and realize you are getting worked up about pages very few people even care about. The world will not end if Portal:Physics remains as is. Get perspective. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 17:17, 19 July 2019 (UTC)

I could indeed do that, @Headbomb. But I believe passionately in the principle that we are here to build an enyclopedia, and in the principle that we build it by consensus between editors who discuss in good faith with integrity and mutual respect.

If the battle-mongers like Certes and the liars like NA1K succeed in driving away from a whole namespace those who actually try to use evidence and data and research to uphold long-established principles, then we have a much bigger problem than this dwindling number of unread hobbyists pages. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 17:30, 19 July 2019 (UTC)

I have now repeatedly seen you call administrator NorthAmerica1000 a liar and other such epithets, while I have only observed them to be polite, helpful and interested in solving issues. To me you have also been rude repeatedly, despite me being a relatively new user who was not involved in any of these past events you talk about. I hate to play the victim here, but you even degraded me for my real life occupation and told me I was not welcome on this website. Regardless of what has expired in the past, I do not think it justifies the behavior you have demonstrate here and elsewhere on this website. --Hecato (talk) 17:53, 19 July 2019 (UTC)

Hecato, my initial contact with you was that I wrote a welcoming, encouraging and detailed post to you. You chose to respond promptly with a set of smartarse misrepresentations designed to score points. Your choice to poison that discussion and then double-down on your rudeness was your choice; don't blame anyone else for your choice.

I get that you have chosen NA1K as an ally, because you share the same objective of not deleting portals. But the problem with NA1K's conduct is that civilly-phrased lies and misrepresentations are still lies and misrepresentations, and I am one of those people do not consider a campaign of lies and misrepresentations to be civil conduct. Evidently we disagree about the acceptablity of lies and FUD. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 18:08, 19 July 2019 (UTC)

I know you think you've shown restraint, and perhaps relative to your current tack, you have. But I wouldn't describe your previous reactions as passively receiving criticism. You have been objecting to the behaviour of others throughout. It is, of course, not unusual to engage with critics, but it would be helpful to avoid ratcheting up accusations and interpretations of motives. isaacl (talk) 17:38, 19 July 2019 (UTC)

• Comment: There was a proposal to end all portals just a year ago, with a community-wide discussion, and it was decided not to do it. Nominating one portal for deletion is not a problem, but the users advocating it are very clear that they intend to delete basically all portals except for just 5 or 6 ones. Meaning, take a long detour to do the very thing that the community has already discussed and rejected. One of those users even called it unironically a "[cull]". This seems like a case of Gaming the system. Cambalachero (talk) 14:36, 19 July 2019 (UTC)
  • @Cambalachero, the only "gaming the system" here is the efforts by a few portalistas to misrepresent WP:ENDPORTALS.

ENDPORTALS was the rejection of a proposal to delete in one go all portals.

It was not a decision to keep any portals, because that question was not asked.

If you or anyone else wants to propose that there should be no deletion of abandoned junk portals, or no deletions last numbers of failed portals with abysmally low readership, then go ahead and make that proposal. You could call it WP:DEFEND ABANDONED UNREAD JUNK.

Good luck with that. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 14:55, 19 July 2019 (UTC)

• It was decided that Thanos can not simply snap his fingers and make all portals dissapear just like that. That doesn't mean that Thanos can simply take a machine gun and start killing everyone one by one to achieve the same culling. That is gaming the system. Cambalachero (talk) 15:16, 19 July 2019 (UTC)

• What a strange and dishonest metaphor. As you know well, there is no machine gun.

There have been hundreds of MFDs of portals in the last 6 months, each of them open for at least the minimum 7 days, and overwhelmingly they have closed as delete.

Labelling that long process of individual assessment by open discussion as "machine gun" is hyperbole designed to mislead, because it is only by such misleading hyperbole that you can lay the false charge of gaming the system.

Please drop this WP:BATTLEGROUND mentality and battleground imagery. Either launch your WP:DEFEND ABANDONED UNREAD JUNK RFC, or stop sniping. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 17:23, 19 July 2019 (UTC)

It's something called "humor". Why so serious? But if you did not get it, I will repeat the idea without humor. A year ago, it was proposed to delete all portals, as a single and unified action. This proposal was rejected. Now, you are proposing to delete all portals... though a long and time-consuming of nominating them one by one at MFD, to achieve the same end that the community has already rejected. Any individual MFD discussion can not be blamed, but the bulk of them, added to your proclaimed goal, is a clear case of twisting the rules to evade the consensus against your proposal. Cambalachero (talk) 18:33, 19 July 2019 (UTC)

Irony is not conveyed well in ASCII text. If you want to use irony, it is best accompanied by indicators.

Anyway, your substantive argument is based on a misrepresentation of my position.

I do not intend to use MFD to remove all portals. I use MFD only to propose removal only of portals which clearly fail the quality standards set in the long-standing portals guidelines.

In the course of spending over a thousand hours analysing many hundreds of portals, I have come to the conclusion that the set of portals as a whole is a failure, and that there should be a mass cull of all but the most successful. But that would be a proposal for another venue, possibly RFC; it is not a matter for individual MFDs.

I have actually been repeatedly surprised that my efforts to MFD the abandoned junk portals have continued for so long, because I never expected that after hundreds of abandoned portals had been deleted I would still be finding abandoned crud such as Portal:IndyCar. I remain shocked by the fact that after 40% of the pre-TTHspam portals were deleted, junk like that still exists. And in one day last week, I found over 20 further portals which are in barely better condition. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 19:11, 19 July 2019 (UTC)

In a section above this one, you wanted to remark that "very very few portals can ever meet this criterion". Keeping just those "very very few portals" that would comply with your criterion... isn't the same thing as deleting almost all portals, who would fail it? And note that, despite the shortcut, the ENDALLPORTALS proposal also made an exception for some "very very few" portals as well, such as the current events one. Cambalachero (talk) 20:00, 19 July 2019 (UTC)

Not so. The proposal at WP:ENDPORTALS is explicit: "Should the system of portals be ended? This would include the deletion of all portal pages and the removal of the portal namespace.". --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 23:51, 19 July 2019 (UTC)

Regional Portals

Some editors state that certain levels of regions, such as nations or states, should routinely have portals, and that such portals should not be deleted. I would suggest that any proposal that national or state portals should have a special status can be included in the portal guideline. Of course, that will depend on re-enacting a modified version of the portal guideline. I suggest that an advocate of regional portals add some provision to this RFC to ask an additional question about a guideline for regional portals. Should regional portals be:

1. Given a special status?
2. Treated the same as other portals, subject to the concept of broad subject area that will attract readers and maintainers?Robert McClenon (talk) 18:53, 1 August 2019 (UTC)

I would argue never, or at least hardly ever. It is better to have no photograph of a subject than an irrelevant, tangential one, such as a model of the subject or something or someone that looks a bit like the something or someone that is the subject.

I ask because a couple of interesting cases here where we lack photographs of the subject.

• In British Rail Class 799 the solution adopted has been to have a photograph of an entirely different class.
• In British Rail D0260 the solution adopted has been to include a photograph of a somewhat accurate (but also somewhat inaccurate) scale model.

In both cases, I believe that this is fundamentally dishonest and unprofessional to include photographs not of the subject. The mitigation that it is noted in captions that the photos are not of the subject is insufficient. It would be better to wait in both cases for photographs to become available, which they will do, given time. There are plenty of articles without photos, so this is not in itself unusual.

If anyone can think of any other articles that do this, please bring them to our attention here.

Unfortunately my attempts to imrpove both of these article have been met with unnecessary aggression, personal attacks, and refusal to discuss policy issues. I hope that we can have a productive discussion here. I half expect editors to not engage, accuse me of being rude, etc, etc, and but I refuse to lower myself to such levels. Tony May (talk) 15:04, 21 August 2019 (UTC)

It is probably inappropriate to use an image that is not clearly of the topic as the infobox or lede picture, but that could be used elsewhere in the article. But it also depends on how much difference there is to the causal reader. For example, on several aviation disaster articles, we likely don't have a picture of the plane involved, but do have a picture of the same model in the same airline. That's fine to use as the infobox picture because for the causal reader, there's clearly no visible difference. I can't say if that's the case for these train articles or not. So, for example, the D0260 example above seems fine to use the photo of the model as long as the caption captures this: the reader knows its a scale model but can still identify the engine. Not so sure on the Class 799 case but that seems like the wrong approach and that photo should go into the body. -Masem (t) 15:18, 21 August 2019 (UTC)

Based on those examples, the "hardly ever" seems like the wrong answer. On the first one, the photo is of the actual single unit of the subject class, but before it was converted to run on hydrogen. The caption could be more clear about that; you have to read the arrticle to figure out what it means. And the model is not a bad stand-in on the other one. In both cases, post a call for a better photo, too. Dicklyon (talk) 15:51, 21 August 2019 (UTC)

I'm inclined to agree here regarding British Rail Class 799, particularly based on the beginning of the lede: The British Rail Class 799 is a one-off... That significantly increases the difficulty of obtaining a photo. Of course, if it only runs in a restricted geographical area -- e.g., if it runs regularly on a particular line -- and is in service with reasonable frequency, it shouldn't be so hard to get a photo. As a general principle, though, I agree with Dicklyon that the photo of the same car before its conversion seems like a reasonable option for the time being. --Tkynerd (talk) 11:56, 22 August 2019 (UTC)

The image use policy is at WP:IUP. It should inform a discussion on the article talk pages about what are appropriate images for the articles. Dispute resolution is where you should go to resolve a content dispute, which is what this is, that you can't figure out on the talk page. VQuakr (talk) 15:57, 21 August 2019 (UTC)

Hi user:VQuakr - thanks for pointing out WP:IUP. Have you read it? WP:IUP mostly talks about copyright, mostly duplicating the WP:COPYRIGHT policy, and not actually covering image use policy. Does the policy need to be (re)written? Tony May (talk) 10:13, 22 August 2019 (UTC)

@Tony May: no, I do not think it needs to be rewritten. You are posting to WP:VPP; it made sense to link the relevant policy. So I linked it, then noted that you aren't really at the right place to resolve a content dispute. You have correctly ascertained that the train photos you linked in your OP are not in violation of policy. VQuakr (talk) 15:33, 22 August 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for your feedback. This is the place to discuss policy, right? And WP:IUP is the policy on image use, but it does not discuss image use, but it does not need rewriting. I'm glad we've got that clarified. Tony May (talk) 15:45, 22 August 2019 (UTC)

@Tony May: WP:IUP does indeed discuss image use, it just doesn't preclude use of the images that you link in your OP. WP:CON is also policy (as is WP:DR that I linked above); maybe they are more relevant to your original question. VQuakr (talk) 16:06, 22 August 2019 (UTC)

I'm not sure WP:IUP actually does discuss image choice. It says they must be copyleft images. I get that. But let's say we've got 60 copyleft images, and we need to choose 4-5 to go in an article. How can we make the choice based on policy? Because I'm being crucified here for suggesting that relevance and technical image quality are important - which I think is rational and most people would agree with - yet I can't refer back to any policy that states this. Tony May (talk) 16:14, 22 August 2019 (UTC)

I said image use, not image choice. Image choice is editorial; the selection you are asking about is guided by WP:CON as determined on the article talk page. MOS:IMAGERELEVANCE has been linked below, which isn't policy but does have some additional guidance. No one is "crucifying" you here. But if you goal was to end-run around discussion and consensus building by finding or creating some oddly specific rule inviolably enshrined in policy, you are going to be disappointed. So. Use the article talk pages, find out if others agree that the cases you link above have significant relevance and technical quality issues as you claim, and achieve consensus for what to do next. This is a collaborative project. VQuakr (talk) 20:38, 22 August 2019 (UTC)

• See Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#Tony_May_and_persistent_criticism_and_belittling_of_other_editors_on_British_railways Andy Dingley (talk) 11:35, 22 August 2019 (UTC)

There are two problems here. Choice of image, and Tony's evident inability to discuss such choice without it turning into attacks on other editors. In one of the examples here, his response to a number of other editors disagreeing with him is firstly to edit-war, then to start accusing other editors of being sockpuppets.

As to image choice, then really it has to come down to the consensus per-article at the end, not encyclopedia or project general guidelines. If there's multi-editor consensus to do it one way on that talk:, and if there's no strong policy reason (i.e. copyright) against that, then it should go that way – even if Tony doesn't like it. Andy Dingley (talk) 11:50, 22 August 2019 (UTC)

To clarify here, as requested, I used "other editors" in a generic sense, to avoid having to identify the one editor to whom Tony's response over them sharing the majority position over a content disagreement was to accuse them of being a sockpuppet. Andy Dingley (talk) 15:29, 22 August 2019 (UTC)

• MOS:IMAGERELEVANCE Images should look like what they are meant to illustrate, whether or not they are provably authentic. For example, a photograph of a trompe-l'œil painting of a cupcake may be an acceptable image for Cupcake, but a real cupcake that has been decorated to look like something else entirely is less appropriate. Similarly, an image of a generic-looking cell under a light microscope might be useful on multiple articles, as long as there are no visible differences between the cell in the image and the typical appearance of the cell being illustrated. Wug·a·po·des​ 16:25, 22 August 2019 (UTC)

• A point has been made linking to c:User:Elcobbola/Models that for models that are detailed representations of real-world objects which normally are ineligible for copyright like a train, those models may have their own copyright by case law; in other words, makign the "free" model image non-free, and thus would make much more sense to use the cover scan for the accuracy since non-free has to be used either way. --Masem (t) 17:05, 22 August 2019 (UTC)

Hoping someone can weigh in @ Talk:Sousveillance#Using_your_child_to_promote_your_career_is_sick. Psiĥedelisto (talk) 00:13, 24 August 2019 (UTC)

It seems like the question of whether Wikipedia should accept content licensed by a parent on their child's behalf, is a question that requires guidance from WMF legal. m:Wikilegal/Removal of photos uploaded by minors is about minor-authored images that were uploaded by the minor. This is new ground. Perhaps Slaporte or Jrogers could share a thought. Someguy1221 (talk) 00:48, 24 August 2019 (UTC)

I'd be wary of such works; it's a well established principle of intellectual property that copyright is usually assigned to the author, and I am pretty sure that being a minor is not an exemption to that principle in any law that I know of. A legal guardian may be able to licence a work on their child's behalf but I wouldn't assume so without an actual expert saying that. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 17:02, 24 August 2019 (UTC)

I've had a look round and not seen anything clearcut. I think someguy1221 is correct - unless and until the WMF signs off on it then it shouldn't be done. Even then, it might be worth discouraging because it's more a field of parental control than purely copyright, different countries could have radically different rules even if they all follow the Berne convention. Bluntly, not worth the hassle. Nosebagbear (talk) 13:58, 25 August 2019 (UTC)

Given this consensus, I've replaced the image for now. Note that in 2013 editors decided to keep the image (User:Drmies closed the discussion), but this specific copyright issue was not brought up at that time. Psiĥedelisto (talk) 06:02, 26 August 2019 (UTC)

SBS3800P has recently removed several station layout tables and station entrance lists as cruft per WP:NOTGUIDE. Station layout tables are used in several thousand Wikipedia articles, and entrance lists are used in at least several hundred. Is it generally acceptable to include such things in articles, or should most of them be removed (or turned into prose)? Similar concepts include track diagrams, train frequency lists (e.g. Battersea Park railway station#Services), and images of station layouts. Jc86035 (talk) 13:04, 27 August 2019 (UTC)

Seems like completely appropriate removals under NOTGUIDE. If there are secondary sources that have details of a station's layout, that would be reasonable to describe in prose, but these tables without sourcing are inappropriate. --Masem (t) 13:10, 27 August 2019 (UTC)

@Masem: Even with sourcing (e.g. at Hoyt–Schermerhorn Streets station, which is a GA), would it be inappropriate to have a station layout table? Jc86035 (talk) 14:13, 27 August 2019 (UTC)

It's probably okay with the sourcing in that. But the ones they were removed from that I spot checked were stations barely meeting notability, so would not be appropriate there. --Masem (t) 14:21, 27 August 2019 (UTC)

The proposal to enjoin Wikijournals as a sister project is currently being advertised widely. Through that I learned that we're directly incorporating articles published through the Wikijournal process, using WP:JAN as the nomination method - see the comment here by Evolution and evolvability. I am not the only one who is objecting in the meta discussion on grounds that include WP:OR and the possibility that the goals of the project are fundamentally at odds with our founding principles, and potentially as much a vanity project as anything else. Why these people cannot choose to be published in the bazillions of academic journals that already exist is beyond me, unless their articles are not in fact up to scratch.

Having seen the note about WP:JAN, I went there and saw that Bengal famine of 1943 is proposed to be overwritten on the basis of being published in a WJ. Now, I realise WP:JAN says that the WP articles are not locked against future changes but the Famine article has a history of disputes largely centred on a massive rewrite that hit problems at WP:FA, after which it seems the re-writer has gone to WJ, got a version of the thing published and then will come back to WP to have it inserted as an overwrite of existing content on the basis of the "peer review" at WJ. That's a specific, much criticised version of the article and WJ hasn't merely been used as a potential mechanism for OR but also to bludgeon a preferred version into WP space. The entire row in the first place had blown up because the writer rewrote the thing outside of mainspace and then pasted it over existing content, and now we're back in the same situation and having to adjust things piecemeal.

Has WP:JAN itself ever been approved? Does this process and the use of it appear to be acceptable?

The process is confusing to me but I note that the preprint of the Bengal article says in its sidebar It is adapted from the Wikipedia article Bengal famine of 1943. It contains some or all of that page's content licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution ShareAlike License and will also be used to update that article after peer review. Surely that is circular? - Sitush (talk) 10:44, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

That's particularly concerning (and I'm concerned with the general OR issues). It would also make it immensely tough to filter out what was circularly sourced and what wasn't. Nosebagbear (talk) 10:57, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

It seems that the articles that have gone through the entire JAN process and actually reached publication on en-WP are listed at Category:WikiJournal of Humanities, Category:WikiJournal of Science and Category:WikiJournal of Medicine. - Sitush (talk) 11:09, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

I know little about the WikiJournals project, and I'm concerned about it, but what you've written in the paragraph about the Bengal Famine of 1943 article is near-completely wrong. 1) I went there and saw that Bengal famine of 1943 is proposed to be overwritten on the basis of being published in a WJ - False, and that's easily demonstrable. This has not been published at WikiJournal. There's a goddamn disclaimer that reads This article is an unpublished pre-print not yet undergoing peer review. 2) The WikiJournal article is a copy of the current Wikipedia article on the Bengal Famine of 1943. Consequently 3) That's a specific, much criticised version of the article and WJ hasn't merely been used as a potential mechanism for OR but also to bludgeon a preferred version into WP space is nonsense, bullshit even. The "preferred version" you're referring to has been on Wikipedia for years (heavily cut down since then due to size concerns). Again, refer to the disclaimer: It is adapted from the Wikipedia article Bengal famine of 1943. It contains some or all of that page's content .... In this case, it contains the entire copy of the Wikipedia article on the subject. Mr rnddude (talk) 11:29, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

Read WP:JAN for the process and the discussion at Meta for the proposals. - Sitush (talk) 11:31, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

I was going to add that you were correct about the article failing at FA and being heavily criticized, but edit-conflicted. That much is true. Mr rnddude (talk) 11:35, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

• The main thrust of Sitush's comments about Bengal Famine 1943 are incorrect. No one is ramming a dispreferred version through into article space using JAN as a ramrod. That assertion is a little thin. The version that currently sits in article space is a very heavily trimmed/cut version of the one I wrote, but it is still very faithful to what I wrote... I'm a little disappointed that you have so little familiarity with the process involved there, and yet so much eagerness to slam it here. But I am not at all surprised; this is de rigeur at Wikipedia. Moreover, all the FAC conflict you mention was 100% personal; arguments against the article were specious. The article is demonstrably not WP:OR, demonstrably not WP:UNDUE, demonstrably not WP:POV, not... in violation of any policy or preferred practice essay or anything at all. It may [very arguably!] have "too many" footnotes, whatever that means. But it is in line with WP policies and practices in every other way imaginable... Feel free to read the FAC with an open mind, and see for yourself.... Quite frankly, you Oppose JAN (which is perfectly OK), and you are using BF43 as a flimsy excuse for doing so. I am not at all unhappy that you disapprove of JAN. In fact, I stopped my efforts to place BF43 in JAN because I am not so sure (yet) that I totally approve of JAN. [I would need to see more discussion.] But don't try to use BF43 as a thin excuse for your JAN opposition. Man up and martial real arguments. Thanks for your time. ♦ Lingzhi2 (talk) 12:40, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

Did you see my question about JAN in my comments? I asked has it been approved. The BF thing is just an example of potential problems to come. And, no, you may think that the failed FA was entirely "personal" but that is not how I read it; furthermore, somewhere around that time you were hauled to some noticeboard due to the general concerns about the editing method, ie: overwriting the entire article with your preferred version. I've no idea what the consensus was but hypothetically at least, the JAN process seems like a potential way to bludgeon the same sort of methodology. - Sitush (talk) 12:44, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

If you're gonna argue against JAN, I strongly support your right to do so, and may even support your reasons for doing so. [Haven't read arguments yet, as I said.] As for BF43's FAC, yawn, meh, yawn, that was a purely personal hit job. All arguments were refuted with an overpowering amount of statistical data, and no one retracted their arguments, which as I have always said is the paragon of bad faith. There was one argument early on that the article didn't cover relief efforts; that was reasonable. After that, just unmitigated Gish gallop. But whatever. WP's content review forums are easily hijacked by anyone with a vendetta. Anyone can see. ♦ Lingzhi2 (talk) 13:54, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

I don't know the full detail of what went on the the BF article and the FA reviews thereof. I largely kept out of it, except I think to express unhappiness with a wholesale change of the thing being made via a sandbox type of paste, which I think is as much an overwhelming style of making change as the Gish galloping to which you refer. I do know it was controversial stuff and the potential exists for JAN to be used to end-run existing processes. That it seems you have reconsidered your involvement with the JAN process due to your own uncertainty regarding it is much to your credit but that does not mean others will and my core question remains: has this notion achieved consensus on en-WP as a mechanism. - Sitush (talk) 14:21, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

The whole sandbox-to-FAC immediately thing was a gross error on my part. I think no one knows that I informed one FAC coordinator via extended email conversation that I was gonna do it a very long time before I did it. I won't say who, because perhaps that person doesn't want his name revealed. That's OK. I don't mind; I respect people's privacy and freedom to make such choices. But I admit it was a gross and grossly unnecessary error. I did it from a somewhat silly fear that other edtor(s) [again, unnamed, but for different reasons] would immediately jump in and argue and revert until the heat death of the sun. I was hoping that getting the article into a FAC would put more eyes on it, reputable eyes at that, forestalling the feared edit wars. Alas, woe is me, what I got instead was many orders of magnitude worse than the edit wars I feared. Fearing a dogfight, I ran into a lions' den. But again... whatever. Meh. I am still bitter, but no longer care about justice. As for your concerns about JAN, I am sure there will either be a RfC or a Wikimedia Papal Diktat, or even both, in the very near future. So marshal your arguments. I won't watch. I'll wait for the outcome. ♦ Lingzhi2 (talk) 15:33, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

• Here and in the discussion on Meta, I'm constantly seeing the concept of circularity being misconstrued. Using a Wikipedia article as a base for a peer-reviewed article, then updating the WP article with text from that article, is not circular - it's in essence an enhanced GA review. Having that review done off-site does not suddenly make the text unsuitable for use in a WP article. Circularity can only arise when material from WP is used in an outside text and then that text is again used as a source on WP. (I know that the specific case of WJ articles being cited on WP is being brought up as a main criticism of the WikiJournal approach, and I'd argue that it does not apply either: external peer review by a subject expert removes the reason for the within-WP cite restriction and vets material into a citable outside canon. But I don't want to go into this here.)

Consider the recent WikiJournal of Science article, Baryonyx. The main author did the majority of work on-wiki at Baryonyx, then submitted a version of the article to WJS, where it received review from one of the principal experts on the genus [2]. He revised the article according to the reviewer's comments, then incorporated the changes back into the WP article. Which continues to evolve and be edited since, as it should, and the author's updates are subject to normal further editing, discussion, or removal; the published version of the article remains as a dated reference point. That's the basic model for a WJ article based on a WP article. I fail to see where circularity concerns enter here.

A side note on "if these people can't get published in an existing journal, it must be crap": consider that some scientists are actually interested in improving Wikipedia while at the same time getting some citable credit for their labours - they provide Wikipedia-ready material in the same wash as publishing a novel review article. That is how articles like Teladorsagia circumcincta (WJS version [3]) get written from scratch, by one of the principal researchers in the field. Discrediting such efforts in these terms is at best ill-considered. --Elmidae (talk · contribs) 22:32, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

The encyclopaedic article on Teladorsagia circumcincta in the journal only seems to be there to include the names of some of the contributors, or what, the journal is going to accept another article that disputes assertions made in the first. The only use I see of WJ are to fork wikicontent, it is not what useful journals do, and my suspicions only deepens when I read the tortured defences and rationalisations of the project's merits. ~ cygnis insignis 23:27, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

There are some interesting points here, but I think it could be worth separating out process and principles, and clarifying a few aspects:

1. Processes versus location:. Is the crux of the issue whether the content is exported during its review then imported again, or the soliciting of outside expert feedback? My impression is that the concept of asking for external expert feedback isn't hugely controversial and has been informally practiced for along time. There's even a category Category:All articles needing expert attention (1,291). Note that the process is not intended as a competitor for GA and FA. It is a complementary system for getting feedback from a different demographic. I would hope that most GAs and FAs would fare fairly well during external peer review. This has been largely the case, with many reviewers specifically praising the articles for their accuracy and often expression surprise at the quality, though not always (example). If the issue is the location, there could be scope to organise external peer reviewer comments whilst the article is still on Wikipedia, more directly similar to FA/GA process (or pdf export the version to be sent to reviewers). Having a separate version was, in part, to present articles to external reviewers in a more familiar format, similar to the process followed by Open Medicine in 2014 with their review of the Dengue Fever. However the BMJ organised external peer review of the Parkinson's disease article in 2015 whilst it was on Wikipedia, so it is possible. Each location has its benefits and limitations.
2. Original research: Some WikiJournal articles are original research articles (example), from which no OR content is added to Wikipedia. They are stand-alone articles. In some cases they may be useful items to point to in Wikiversity courses (example). For review-style articles, authors are instructed to give a balanced summary of the relevant topics and that "Wikipedia cannot include any original research (including synthesis of ideas). Original research, such as tentative conclusions, personal perspectives, outlook, or opinions can be included in a separate section for the published journal version of the article; it will be omitted from Wikipedia. (WP:OR)". No original research parts from articles should be copied over to Wikipedia.
3. Circular: The aim is not to have Wikipedia articles that cite themselves, or use themselves as the sole source. The citations contained in all of these articles still point to external sources (example). It has also been relatively common practice for people to have a copy of an article in their userspace that they are working on before re-integrating that back into the wikipedia article.

T.Shafee(Evo&Evo)^talk 03:25, 24 August 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for the input but my questions remain: Has WP:JAN itself ever been approved? Does this process and the use of it appear to be acceptable? I suppose you are at least in part addressing the second but not the first. - Sitush (talk) 03:36, 24 August 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for re-clarifying. I do not believe that there has been a formal approval process for the WP:JAN page. Indeed, I didn't know that there needed to be one. I did search the wikipedia policy pages, but there are so many it's totally possible I missed the relevant one. There has been discussion of the process since 2012 at the WP:W2J page. The external peer review by the BMJ via a user sandbox and word document in 2015/16 (User:Anthonyhcole/sandbox) seemed to be generally well-received. WP:JAN was intended to make the process clearer, since the original example by Open Medicine didn't have an established mechanism and was organised directly with their EiC. The articles are licensed CC BY-SA and attempt to transparently acknowledge both the source location and contributors, and so far the majority of updates to the wikipedia articles based on the peer reviewer recommendations have been well-received by the editor communities of those pages. I can give examples and counter-examples if useful. T.Shafee(Evo&Evo)^talk 12:13, 24 August 2019 (UTC)

@Evolution and evolvability: In general, I think the only policy directly related to such community processes is Wikipedia:Ownership of content (there are also some TFA-related provisions in Wikipedia:Protection policy and Wikipedia:Edit warring). I guess without any further consensus what would happen is that any user would be able to revert JAN modifications with justification; the act of content addition itself could probably be seen as analogous to copying an article into a user sandbox, improving the article and then copying the sandbox's contents back into the article. Jc86035 (talk) 15:07, 27 August 2019 (UTC)

I agree with that. The process guidelines over with the journals aim to make any contributors aware of WP:OWN (author guidelines, editor guidelines, publication ethics). Indeed, we actually had an example where an article did not meet WP:MEDMOS and was largely overhauled/reverted, leading to some ongoing updates to how WikJMed handles those articles (ensuring authors properly understand MEDMOS & getting WP:MED feedback earlier during peer review). T.Shafee(Evo&Evo)^talk 02:39, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

I have just translated and published an article, Anders Burius, but I am unsure if I properly translated his media nickname. Media in Sweden seldom, or never, publish the name of non-public figures and instead rely on nicknames such as "the 48-year old" or "the RL man". As such Anders Burius is probably most know as "KB-mannen" to the Swedish public.

This is what I am unsure about... When I refer to his media nickname in English, e.g. when quoting, should I say A) the Swedish "KB-mannen", B) the semi-translation "the KB man", or C) the full translation "the RL man"?

"KB" stands for "Kungliga Biblioteket" which becomes "the Royal Library" in English. The short-form is "KB", or "RL" translated into English. --Christoffre (talk) 13:10, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

Ooh, I like this question! :-) Speaking as an American living in Stockholm, my inclination would be to use "KB-mannen" and add a translation with an explanation of what KB stands for, I think. I'd be interested to hear other opinions. You should also consider whether there are any WP:BLP considerations in using his name, if he isn't publicly known by name in Sweden. (I know nothing about him.) --Tkynerd (talk) 13:37, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

His name have been released to the public and it is used frequently in documentaries. But in the public mind he is most known as "KB mannen" rather than "Anders Burius". Also, Swedish Wikipedia have used his proper name for 11 years. --Christoffre (talk) 13:51, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

Oh... And WP:BLP does not apply since he passed away in 2004 --Christoffre (talk) 21:51, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

The request for comment on the rules for the 2019 Arbitration Committee election is being held at Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Arbitration Committee Elections December 2019. All are invited to participate. TonyBallioni (talk) 23:19, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

Has there been a resolution on WP of the Native American name controversy? There are some editors who use, or insist on using, the word Indian. This word is considered pejorative or racist by some. It is also inexact in an internationally available site or publication, as it refers to persons of the sub continent.Oldperson (talk) 01:04, 2 September 2019 (UTC)

Since no one else has commented, I'll offer my opinion. Oldperson, what you have linked to is an article describing common usage that is not necessarily followed here on en.wikipedia. I don't know what the official policy is in referring to Native Americans -- or if WP has one. (If one needs to be created, I don't see that will be a harmonious discussion.) If you are asking because you need to refer to these people in an article, my advice is to follow your instincts, & if you're wrong someone will volunteer to set you straight. (Hopefully in a respectful manner.) -- llywrch (talk) 18:31, 4 September 2019 (UTC)

You are correct Llywrch Words that have controversial social implications evoke intense feelings, especially amongst those whose bias underpins their identity and helps inform their world view. Myself, I have no intention of using the word"Indian",simply because there are some in that ethnic group that consider it analogous to the"N" word. I also know that others, especially some elders, don't share that opinion. But I have received an answer on RfC and consider it (currently) acceptable. I also know that there is a large segment of the American population, that intensely resents not using the "N" word, using as an excuse that "blacks use it why can't I", the answer should be obvious. The same situation arises with the word "queer". Gays use it amongst themselves but object when the outside community uses it to describe them. The "N" word and "queer" are used as wounding , demeaning and hateful epithets when hurled or used by those not in the community. However those inside the community use them as a means of immunizing themselves against the use, sometimes as a form of endearment,but simply because they too are members the word cannot be used to demean, subjugate, harm or shame. Oldperson (talk) 19:08, 4 September 2019 (UTC)

Is there anything in Wikipedia documentation that specifies how documents like WP:MOS are supposed to be interpreted? My natural tendency is to assume something like "anything not explicitly forbidden is allowed", but during the discussions that led to the External Links RFC above, I was told that I shouldn't use external links in a bibliography section without first requesting consensus here at WP:VPP, even though a careful read of the MOS showed that nothing prohibited such usage. Which is more like "everything is forbidden which is not explicitly allowed". I'd be curious if there's anything specific in WP documentation that addresses this (other than WP:Ignore all rules  :-) ).

I am planning to do some small tweaks to the MOS to clarify external links usage, based on the comments/consensus in the External Links RFC. If anyone has suggestions on the preferred way to proceed, I'd be interested. I'll reread WP:Consensus before doing anything. Thanks. Finney1234 (talk) 18:19, 2 September 2019 (UTC)

Editors are encouraged to be bold, but they're also expected to follow the spirit of the rules, not a literal reading. We don't exhaustively list everything that you're not supposed to do. If the MOS says not to use italics for quotations, you shouldn't use oblique type, either. On the other hand, if there's a situation where not italicizing the quotation will cause readers to be confused, you can ignore that guideline. So, be bold but don't wikilawyer. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 08:39, 3 September 2019 (UTC)

I'd say as with most everything else, if a consensus of editors finds that your interpretation of a guideline is wrong, then the project will side with the consensus. Breaking a guideline is, in isolation, no big deal. If the consensus is to follow the guideline and revert the editor who broke it, still no big deal. Only when this becomes a frequent occurrence with one editor do admins need to get involved. Though one bit of advice, you really shouldn't be writing posts on talk pages as if you have the authority to close, conclude or otherwise determine the outcome of a discussion you were a part of. You don't have the authority anyway, so it just looks weird, and others may have a less charitable interpretation. Someguy1221 (talk) 09:55, 3 September 2019 (UTC)

Hi Someguy1221: FWIW, my (unofficially) "concluding" the discussion in Talk:Siemon_Muller was based on discovery of text in the MOS which explicitly permitted what I'd been arguing for (and thus consensus had previously been reached on the topic). Up till that point, I'd repeatedly pointed out that nothing in the MOS prohibited the use of external links in a "Publications" section, but to no avail. The online books section made it clear that the removal of external links on May 22 in Siemon Muller was, in fact, an explicit documented violation of the MOS. So it wasn't simply me trying to enforce my opinion.

BTW, as I said, I will carefully re-read WP:Consensus before doing anything to resolve the External Links RFC, but if you can give me any suggestions as to the proper way to proceed I'd appreciate it. A month hasn't expired yet, but the discussion has been quiet, and there seems to be a fairly clear consensus on the major issue (external links are allowed) and some variation on a minor issue (how the links in a Publications should be formatted). However, I realize that my perception of the consensus outcome has a conflict of interest :-). Finney1234 (talk) 22:43, 3 September 2019 (UTC)

• "anything not explicitly forbidden is allowed": Absolutely not! Per MOS:STYLEVAR, follow the set standard, unless there are absolutely compelling reasons to not follow, in which case, get consensus first. Thanks, Lourdes 13:35, 3 September 2019 (UTC)

That's true for established article which have a set style on a particular matter, not so much for new articles, or those where the question hasn't arisen before. Johnbod (talk) 15:53, 3 September 2019 (UTC)

Yes John, for new articles, I quote the two principles from Arbcom:

1. "The Manual is prescriptive in areas that enjoy broad consensus; where there is no such consensus, the available options are described, but no prescriptive guidance is provided. Editors are expected to follow the Manual of Style, although it is not policy and editors may deviate from it with good reason."
2. "Wikipedia does not mandate styles in many different areas; these include (but are not limited to) American vs. British spelling, date formats, and citation style. Where Wikipedia does not mandate a specific style, editors should not attempt to convert Wikipedia to their own preferred style, nor should they edit articles for the sole purpose of converting them to their preferred style, or removing examples of, or references to, styles which they dislike."

In my opinion, any good reasoned exceptional deviation from the guideline or introduction of a new style (not explicitly forbidden) should be discussed before getting implemented, even for new articles. Thanks, Lourdes 00:20, 4 September 2019 (UTC)

I find this question odd. First, my understanding of the purpose of WP:MOS is simply to save volunteer time & energy thru avoiding edit wars over trivial & WP:LAME matters. However, there have been a number of people who frequent that part of Wikipedia who believe WP:MOS must be prescriptive & have added a lot of text there. (Or so I'm told. I haven't looked at that part of Wikipedia since before my oldest daughter was born; she will be 12 next February. I simply follow the guidelines set forth in my copy of the MLA Style Manual, look to examples in FA & GA class articles, & have yet to encounter any serious push back.)

Second, no Manual of Style will cover every possible situation, so one will be confronted on occasion with a situation that requires some thought & individual judgment. Hopefully, one will arrive at a solution that meets with community approval; if not, well, we Wikipedians are known for our willingness to discuss matters. Sometimes we discuss things too much.

Lastly, almost everyone who contributes to Wikipedia comes with at least a rough idea of what style a Wikipedia article should have. There are dicta any manual of style must assume its user to know or accept, & these will not be explicitly defined; these dicta are gathered under the rubric known as common sense. So the best answer I can give to you is simply, "What do you think?" -- llywrch (talk) 19:58, 4 September 2019 (UTC)

llywrch FYI, my own concern is that (if I'm not mistaken), WP:MOS effectively *is* the outcome of consensus, so it's a good place to go to find out what an acceptable approach is to editing Wikipedia (it's not just a list of arbitrary rules). I like the idea of going for the spirit of the rules, 5 pillars, ignore all rules if what you're doing makes Wikipedia "better", etc., but those all require a fair amount of flexible interpretation and are subject to personal bias, and can lead to extensive argumentation. So, to some extent, the more that can be codified, the better. The issue I posed about interpretation was genuine and practical, related to a real-life experience where I had to defend (in a discussion with multiple senior editors) the use of external links to online source in a Publications section *even when nothing in the MOS* states they're not allowed. Any attempt to personally claim that something violates "consensus" or "proper Wikipedia approach" is somewhat meaningless without some explicit documentation that consensus has been previously reached on that issue; without that, it's too likely that the claim is just an expression of a personal preference. Finney1234 (talk) 22:15, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

Hello. Suppose that an article's content is being disputed, but the content was added by a block-evading sockpuppet. Which takes precedence - WP:DENY/WP:BANREVERT, or WP:DISPUTE? The Grand Delusion^{(Send a message)} 06:04, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

Once a good faith user reinstates a change made by a banned user, reverting it is no longer a BANREVERT. Someguy1221 (talk) 07:58, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

Comment: context for what I'm talking about - Talk:List of music considered the worst#Further discussion. The Grand Delusion^{(Send a message)} 23:38, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

See the response above. Many other editors have reinstated and altered the content since the banned editor wrote it. You are the only person out of 10+ participants who are still stuck on this. Please get a clue and WP:DROPTHESTICK. Sergecross73 msg me 01:41, 8 September 2019 (UTC)

Let's see. Looking at the article's history, since the issue began a year ago far more people have tried to remove the entry than keep it, as most of the reverts re-adding it have been either a bot, the banned troll (or "editor" as you like to call him) and you. By the by, nice use of WP:DROPTHESTICK; a favorite essay repeatedly named dropped by the banned "editor" [21][22][23] 2600:1700:B280:B1C0:401:9D0D:384D:6176 (talk) 09:43, 9 September 2019 (UTC).

We don’t gauge consensus by digging through page histories, we do it through discussion. And the latest RFC had no consensus for removal. And are you insinuating that there’s something suspicious about two editors citing STICK? Yeah, nice try. That’s extremely widely cited concept. Did we both cite WP:V and WP:ATD-M too? Give me a break. Sergecross73 msg me 19:10, 9 September 2019 (UTC)

"Many other editors have reinstated and altered the content since the banned editor wrote it," then "We don’t gauge consensus by digging through page histories". Can you try to keep a track on what you're saying. Your "many other editors have reinstated" is pretty much just you and the troll, and as for the multiple editors altering the content, they only did so in an effort to balance the content in accordance with WP:NPOV and try to bring about a compromise since you won't let it be removed. And is anyone shocked than an RFC ended in "no consensus" when one of the two people dead set on keeping it as is voted multiple times under sockpuppet accounts.

And I'm not saying you and the troll in question are the same person, just that your agendas align strikingly too much to the point that not only do your tactics overlap, but you seem to be purposefully downplaying his actions. Despite long term abuse going back years, you referrer to him as an "editor" while everyone else referrers to him as what he rightly is, a troll. And while everyone else sees his addition to the article for what it is (trolling), you won't even acknowledge that fact. Lastly, if you look at the article's history, and you go all through the talk archives, you will see that far more people have tried to remove the entry than keep it, as for the past year there have really only been two people regularly, continuously working to ensure it remains on the list: the troll and you. You don't acknowledge the troll for what he is, you don't acknowledge his actions for what they are, you work regularly to keep the spirit of his actions alive, and you've come extremely close to WP:OWN with List of music considered the worst by making yourself a de facto guru and talking down to anyone who disagrees with you because "I edit this list regularly!" (so much so that you were finally called out about it, but of course you had to throw in one last knowitall-ism on your way out the door). 2600:1700:B280:B1C0:81B7:9ADA:FA2B:E566 (talk) 20:53, 9 September 2019 (UTC)

Yes yes, you lot love to make me out to be the bad guy, like I’m the cause of all your complaints, but the fact is, I’ve sat out those content disputes for the entire month of September, and they’re no closer to a resolution than when I was actively participating. I can’t tell if you’re honestly believe everything you’re typing, or if it’s just trying to gaslight me, but its not just me here, I’m merely the one who responds to you all the most. And with that, I’ll step away from here now as well, as the answer has already been given to this question, an this is all just spiraling off-topic again. Sergecross73 msg me 21:55, 9 September 2019 (UTC)

I kinda feel like the issue of DISPUTE vs DENY hasn't really been touched upon. I want as many editors as possible to weigh in on this. The Grand Delusion^{(Send a message)} 01:47, 8 September 2019 (UTC)

WP:DENY is about vandalism. One should presume that if a good-faith editor is vouching for an edit, it isn't vandalism.

It feels, though, that you have a particular situation in mind – people might be able to give more useful feedback if you pointed to it so we can see an example. Caeciliusinhorto (talk) 15:35, 8 September 2019 (UTC)

@Caeciliusinhorto: Well, let's say that a suspected IP sockpuppet of of The abominable Wiki troll added an entry to List of music considered the worst, but the edit was removed/reinstated multiple times since its addition.

Statement made on article's talk page

Per evidence I had gathered, the IP address that re-added the entry back in September 2018 (WHOIS info here, edit here) and an IP address cited in an ANI discussion ("Community ban for User:The abominable Wiki troll"; WHOIS info here) share the same geolocation information - both are assigned to Sky UK broadband, based in the UK. Other IPs coming from there that have edited the page around the same time include 5.64.203.172 ([24]) and 5.71.120.78 ([25]). The entry was previously added back in 2014 by User:Trying to envelop, a blocked sockpuppet of User:The abominable Wiki troll, as shown here. Another blocked sockpuppet of The abominable Wiki troll, User:Goblinostic, defended the album's inclusion in the edit summary for this edit and in this talk page discussion. The relevant SPI case files are here and here.

The Grand Delusion^{(Send a message)} 18:56, 8 September 2019 (UTC)

For those unfamiliar with the situation, here is the CliffNotes version: Several years ago The Abominable Wiki Troll added The Beatles' album Sgt. Pepper to List of music considered the worst , and it was removed as people felt it shouldn't be there since it regularly appears on various Greatest and/or Most Influential Albums of All Time lists (very often coming in around #1). Just over one year ago an IP re-added it to the list, using the same sources from when it was originally listed. Due to the fact the "Worst Music" list has an unbelievably weak criteria (right now all that is required for inclusion is a single person calling the album/song the "worst"), edits trying to remove the entry (and there have been many) are constantly reverted with the rational "you need to get a consensus first". In February, an RFC was launched to reach such a consensus, and after two months and dozens of editors participating, it was closed as "no consensus" and the entry forced to remain. It was subsequently discovered that not only was AWT one of the two main editors arguing to keep Sgt. Pepper on the list, but he voted multiple times under different sockpuppet accounts (ironically he insinuated multiple IPs voting to remove the album were sockpuppets and said the RFC was tainted). Upon further investigation by Grand Delusion, it was discovered AWT was the IP who re-added Sgt. Pepper to the list and started the whole mess. However, despite the fact the entry was added by a user evading a ban (WP:BANREVERT), and added to the list (and continually re-added) as an act of trolling (WP:DENY), attempts to remove the entry are still being reverted. 2600:1700:B280:B1C0:401:9D0D:384D:6176 (talk) 09:43, 9 September 2019 (UTC)

Yes, and it’s been re-added and altered many times by unrelated editors in good faith since this ban-evading editor added it. Which is why it’s not appropriate to deleted from the article. This is just a poor attempt at Wiki-lawyering their way into getting their way in the dispute. Luckily most editors on both sides of the dispute realize this isn’t the right way to be going about it. Sergecross73 msg me 15:49, 9 September 2019 (UTC)

Looking at the history page, the only editors that have re-added the entry in the last year are you, the troll's Sockpuppets, and Popcornduff (which re-added it since there were discussions ongoing, not because he was in favor per-se of the album being on the list). So where are the so called editors that have re-added the entry in good-faith? All I see is the work of a troll and an admin who supports his obvious troll work. (By the way, as noted by 2600:1700:B280:B1C0:401:9D0D:384D:6176 up there, both of you write in a very similar way...) WKMN? Later [ Let's talk ] 17:01, 9 September 2019 (UTC)

We’re not just talking about reverts. There was a massive RFC with a ton of participants that ended in a no consensus split, with half favoring inclusion. They count too. The banned editor was not every single one of the many who fell on the inclusion side. (I’ll again warn you of casting WP:ASPERSIONS. You’ve only gotten away with that in the past because so few people noticed it. Not the same case here at VP. Don’t make baseless accusations. I have no sock puppets. And I certainly didn’t operate two accounts, one to adminship, the other to a site ban. That doesn’t even make any sense.) Sergecross73 msg me 19:10, 9 September 2019 (UTC)

Ok, let's count to see if you're telling the truth. Let's check how many voted in favor of keeping Pepper in the list of worst music, and how many voted against it. RFC link here.

In favor:

• SummerPhDv2.0
• Sergecross73
• Micky Moats (Sockpuppet)
• Ilovetopaint
• 82.132.218.91 (blocked IP due to vandalism)
• Noelrock (Sockpuppet)
• BLZ
• Tosk Albanian
• 2A02:C7F:8E93:DF00:857B:F747:3D05:225 (blocked IP due to vandalism)
• Herostratus
• Jayron32

Against:

• 108.199.123.95
• 72.192.15.119
• A Quest For Knowledge
• 91.84.66.228
• WKMN? Later
• GenQuest
• Rjrya395
• Indynotes
• Hunter Kahn
• LM2000
• Curly "JFC" Turkey

So that's 11 votes in favor, from which 2 were sockpuppets, and 2 others were trolling accounts that ended up being blocked. That leaves 7 valid votes to keep Pepper on the list. Against 11 votes against. And yet you defend that "half" of the RFC voters were in favor of keeping Pepper. That's not taking into account the rest of the discussions in the talk page, in which many editors are against keeping Pepper on the list, and you're the only one who's in favor (you and... the troll, of course.) Also, I'm not accusing you of anything, I'm just stating the facts. Sockpuppets were trolling to keep Pepper on the list, and you agreed with them. I've still not read a valid reason to keep Pepper on the list, other than "DROPTHESTICK", and "other good faith editors", and "get consensus". WKMN? Later [ Let's talk ] 20:04, 9 September 2019 (UTC)

Great, but we’re not rehashing that dispute in yet another venue. We’re discussing BANREVERT application. And as you’ve just pointed out, there were 7 good-faith editors who were in favor of inclusion. And that’s a reason why the content isn’t being auto-deleted. Thank you for digging that up and clearing that up for me. Sergecross73 msg me 20:13, 9 September 2019 (UTC)

And there were 11 who were against. The RFC conclusion was invalid - its results were tampered. There are everyday more editors that are against putting Pepper on the list, than there are in favor (I feel I'm explaining this to a five year old: an album which is considered the best of all times had its couple of detractors; that doesn't make it a candidate for a worst music list). Since it's been discovered that the entry was added by the troll, and when people deleted it, it was reverted by the troll, and when the RFC was made the troll voted for its inclusion on the list, and many, many more editors are against putting Pepper on the list; we could change our logic. The current logic is: "Pepper is on the list. If you want it removed, get consensus." It should be the other way, since Pepper being on the list has been defended by the troll and opposed by many more editors. It should be: "Pepper is not on the list, because of its universal appraisal. If you want it on the list, get consensus." I'm sure many, many more editors would agree with this instead of the current politic. WKMN? Later [ Let's talk ] 20:24, 9 September 2019 (UTC)

Have you read the section you’re commenting in? This discussion is not about the closing of that RFC. Sergecross73 msg me 20:36, 9 September 2019 (UTC)

I know. It was just a suggestion. I'll be happy to suggest it elsewhere, when it's appropriate. WKMN? Later [ Let's talk ] 20:41, 9 September 2019 (UTC)

I came upon a request at Uncontroversial Technical Requests to move a page and found that the page was locked for moving so that only admins can move it because the page was moved a few weeks prior because someone jumped the gun. I think that the lockdown of pages should be so that it should also include the PAGEMOVER rights. There are only a few of us and we are granted this right because we are trusted not to abuse it, and we know when to use it. I just think it's one more layer of bureaucracy we can get rid of. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 14:35, 9 September 2019 (UTC)

I would support this, but edit protection and move protection currently use the same user permissions, so unless the user permissions were unbundled, this would let page movers edit fully protected pages. Iffy★Chat -- 16:04, 9 September 2019 (UTC)

Iffy, the page I was talking about had just move protection on it, not edit protection. Many pages have a special protection that you can edit it but you can't move it because there was a move war but not an edit war. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 17:35, 9 September 2019 (UTC)

@Sir Joseph: Both of those are controlled by editprotected, this needs to be split so editing and moving are treated differently before this proposal has a chance of achieving consensus. Iffy★Chat -- 17:58, 9 September 2019 (UTC)

Iffy, ok, that makes sense. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 18:37, 9 September 2019 (UTC)

In general, if protection is no longer necessary, the page should be unprotected - not just actioned over the protection. As to the specific proposal above, if this is for adding (protect) access to extendedmover then I'm against it as access to that function was not something that current extendedmover's were evaluated against. — xaosflux ^Talk 16:44, 9 September 2019 (UTC)

I concur with Xaosflux on this. Current extendedmover's were not evaluated based on having the ability to move pages that were fully move protected/having the ability to edit fully protected pages (if not unbundled). There is also a lot more room for vandalism (you could even, theoretically, move the Main page with that ability (I know that you can't delete it anymore as an admin, but wonder if they also removed the ability to move it....do you know Xaosflux?. --TheSandDoctor ^Talk 20:40, 11 September 2019 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure that admins can't move a page with more than 5,000 revisions for the same reason they can't delete them - as moving effectively is a deletion and re-creation? Black Kite (talk) 20:47, 11 September 2019 (UTC)

The enwiki Main Page cannot be deleted or moved, that's correct. As a point of interest, it does not have move more than 5,000 revisions. ~ Amory (u • t • c) 21:03, 11 September 2019 (UTC)

Pages that have 5000+ revisions don't throw the "nope" error that requires 'bigdelete' access - but I'm not about to try to move one :D — xaosflux ^Talk 21:46, 11 September 2019 (UTC)

Ditto ~ Amory (u • t • c) 21:04, 11 September 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarification, Amorymeltzer! . --TheSandDoctor ^Talk 21:08, 11 September 2019 (UTC)

Chiming in here as I actually had the same thought as the person who opened the discussion, so I poked around the ListGroupRights to see what's possible. As an alternate solution if move protection can't be unbundled from edit protection, there are a few possible options? I noticed that sysops have the "move pages under pending changes (permission being movestable)". Could an additional right perhaps be created that allows moving full protected pages (e.g. moveprotected) that would give them the ability to move these pages but not edit full protected? I agree that the potential for abuse is rather low, there aren't many page movers around and the backlog at RM gets quite large, so if this can be technically implemented I think it's a good idea. Steven Crossin ^{Help resolve disputes!} 06:58, 12 September 2019 (UTC)